Woodward, Glazers....

Keefy18

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And, we were after him, Smart arse.
I'm not being smart, don't see the drama over this transfer.

Most didn't have a clue who the kid was about 2-3 weeks back. We asked for the buy back clause to be removed, it wasn't and we walked away.

Fair play to Spurs for being a feeder club, that's not us.
 

Bestietom

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I'm not being smart, don't see the drama over this transfer.

Most didn't have a clue who the kid was about 2-3 weeks back. We asked for the buy back clause to be removed, it wasn't and we walked away.

Fair play to Spurs for being a feeder club, that's not us.
Why didn't you write this instead of just answering with And?.
 

Skeezix

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Glad they stayed away from the Reguilon deal. But for the life of me I cannot understand why they are unable to offload the deadwood.

Romero to Villa is off and Smalling to Roma still seems far fetched. Shows so much ineptitude in negotiating making deals.
 

Champ

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But you can afford maintenance, which is showed by your annual operating expenses, and you have no reason to slap any price on your house since you are not actively selling it. It's very important for people to keep in mind that United isn't being destroyed and it's not becoming a ruin, we fans of big clubs tend to be drama queens. The issue with United are relative, it's basically that a club that is currently a big club and relatively competitive(because being a perennial PL top 6 club is actually good in the world of football) should be at the very top of football when you consider the kind of investment that we have seen in the last 6-7 years. The issue isn't that United are bad because they aren't, it's not that they don't spend because they spend a lot but that the club is poorly run when compared to the very best clubs in the world and that there is a clear lack of efficiency when you consider the money spent and results on the field.

If I was to entertain your house analogy, you have a mansion with 30 rooms, spend the money to maintain 30 rooms but only uses 15 of those rooms and are seemingly perfectly happy because those 15 rooms cover the maintenance costs of the mansion plus some change. Personally I have an issue with the 15 unused rooms that are unused but maintained daily with no effort to actually use them.
You state the club is poorly run, that's a bit of a lie, the footballing side could be run better, but the club alas, is a business first and foremost, so in that sense the club is being run immaculately.
 

JPRouve

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You state the club is poorly run, that's a bit of a lie, the footballing side could be run better, but the club alas, is a business first and foremost, so in that sense the club is being run immaculately.
It's not a lie, it's a matter of perspective as fans a club that spend big for little return is poorly run which is why many are logically complaining about the club management. I personally consider that it's a football club first and foremost which doesn't prevent it from being lucrative for the owners, these two things aren't mutually exclusive.
 

Mickeza

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Any of the finance experts in here know if this is true:

“Part of the protection that covers Manchester United’s lenders — those investors who bought Manchester United Senior Secured Notes — are ‘covenants’. There are two types of covenants: ‘general covenants’, which basically keep Manchester United behaving as the lenders deem appropriate (e.g. no leftfield business mergers or acquisitions), and then there’s the far more impactful ‘financial covenants’. This financial covenant, in our opinion, explains much of the seemingly inexplicable behaviour exhibited by Manchester United in this window.

This financial covenant — this protective legal clause — requires Manchester United to maintain a minimum level of profit. This exact clause is unique to Manchester United. Here, the definition of profit is ‘EBITDA’: Earnings Before Interest, Tax, Depreciation and Amortisation, which represents the profit from which its lenders can be paid the interest that they are owed. The financial covenant requires Manchester United to generate a minimum rolling 12-month EBITDA of £65mn.”

https://medium.com/football-bureau-of-investigation/jadon-sancho-the-circus-strategy-2904b788999e
 

Leftback99

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Glad they stayed away from the Reguilon deal. But for the life of me I cannot understand why they are unable to offload the deadwood.

Romero to Villa is off and Smalling to Roma still seems far fetched. Shows so much ineptitude in negotiating making deals.
I keep seeing this. Ask yourself why anyone would want anyone other than Smalling on big wages and it's a lot easier to answer.

Rojo and Jones are probably in the top 10 best paid CBs in the league.
 

KiD MoYeS

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The club have been fully Arsenal-ised all while the fans continue to debate Woodward, the manager, the players etc. Until Glazer family sell, the club will not be returning to previous glories, simple as. The club is a business and the business is a brand that happens to play football once or twice a week.
 

Fluctuation0161

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And they are 100% fair criticisms which I agree with. What I don't agree with is people saying we haven't shown ambition in the transfer market over that time, the amount of spending we have done has been more than enough to buy a squad that should be competing for every trophy every year. its just that the money has been spent appallingly badly.
So not only are they making transfer mistakes. Because we are also paying their debt we cannot afford to rectify their mistakes.

Also, based on our yearly spend vs league postion, it seems apparent that our ambition is to finish top 4. That does need to be questioned imo.
 

vanderpants

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Glad they stayed away from the Reguilon deal. But for the life of me I cannot understand why they are unable to offload the deadwood.

Romero to Villa is off and Smalling to Roma still seems far fetched. Shows so much ineptitude in negotiating making deals.
Bit harsh calling Romero deadwood, he has always given his best when called on
 

Chesterlestreet

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But for the life of me I cannot understand why they are unable to offload the deadwood.
They're on big money. The plausible candidates for signing the likes of Rojo are miles off being willing to match his wages.

The deadwood player himself would have to be willing to take a (drastic, in most cases) pay cut - or United would have to be willing to pretty much give 'em away (to compensate for the wages).

This is a situation we have created ourselves - by stupidly offering new and improved contracts to certain players.
 

Keefy18

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So not only are they making transfer mistakes. Because we are also paying their debt we cannot afford to rectify their mistakes.

Also, based on our yearly spend vs league postion, it seems apparent that our ambition is to finish top 4. That does need to be questioned imo.
How are the mistakes "theirs" in terms of who is signed and isn't?

Are you telling me the Glazer family scouted Bailly? Lindelof? Mikhataryan? etc etc etc

Ultimately, that is down to the football side of things on who is signed or isn't.

Woodward has openly stated that scouting was an issue and it has been addressed in terms of staff numbers and roles they play. The manager works with the scouting team and picks out suitable targets.

Basically its on Judge to negotiate deals and Woodward to sign the cheque.

How exactly then is it on Judge / Woodward who is signed?
 

devilish

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AC Milan are a different story altogether, they had far more problems than we've had. There was the debt issue of course but they also invested horribly for years on players well past their best for ridiculous prices. We were guilty of that during the Jose tenure and that was one of my huge concerns with him here, that he was repeatedly chasing players past their prime.

We don't have a divine right to constantly win the league, we went 26 years without a title. Reality is many of our spoiled brat supporters seem to think we should be handed a title every summer cause of our club size and some blind arrogance.

You keep banging on about selling it, to whom? Whom is this Knight in shining armour you speak of? The morally bankrupt and evil Saudi's? Guilty of human rights violations that would paint Hitler in an almost angelic light.

Yeah lets get them in as owners just so long as we have the roof of Old Trafford fixed and we can buy new shiny things every summer.
The difference is that Milan was sugar daddied during those years, United isn't and wasn't. United doesn't need to be funded by its owner in order to have one of the largest budgets in Football while Milan relied heavily on its owner. I won't do that forever, you seemingly fail to make the difference between managerial incompetence and financial capability, United has no money problem it generates enough money to be at the top but the board is incompetent, they seemingly don't know how to allocate football resources efficiently and have wasted an incredible amount of money mainly on wages.
@Keefy18 as JPRouve correctly said, AC Milan had a different business model then ours. Berlusconi used to put money at the club while the Glazers take money out of the club. However while Manchester United's model is self sustainable and more resilient it still rely heavily on external sources specifically sponsors and fans. Both fans and sponsors expect success and popularity else they will either not bother about the club anymore while the young generation would end up supporting other clubs. That happened with Milan and will happen with us. If that had to happen then the club's profit and price will go down substantially.

Thus why United need to invest heavily on the squad while cutting waste and inefficiency. We need to go back on top. A top 6 place might be good for Spurs, Atalanta or Napoli but its not good for us. Not unless we're resigned in losing our spot as one of the biggest clubs in Europe.
 

Crustanoid

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How are the mistakes "theirs" in terms of who is signed and isn't?

Are you telling me the Glazer family scouted Bailly? Lindelof? Mikhataryan? etc etc etc

Ultimately, that is down to the football side of things on who is signed or isn't.

Woodward has openly stated that scouting was an issue and it has been addressed in terms of staff numbers and roles they play. The manager works with the scouting team and picks out suitable targets.

Basically its on Judge to negotiate deals and Woodward to sign the cheque.

How exactly then is it on Judge / Woodward who is signed?
You have answered your own question. The scouts are likely to have knowledge of good football players unless their job specs says something else. They don’t do the negotiations and they don’t underperform in strengthening the team by not signing good footballers, that have been identified, by the people whose job it is to identify good footballers.
 

croadyman

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Same old familiar names back to defend the Glazers.
That is the biggest problem of all we aren't a United fanbase and that suits Woody & The Glazers down to the ground. There is far too much chest beating that goes on about the different types of fans
 

Marcus

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We are going to lose the opportunity to get new fans, that's for sure. Eventually, the revenue would be severely hit. But all us old foggies would have to die or quit watching United before that happens.
 

Nytram Shakes

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So not only are they making transfer mistakes. Because we are also paying their debt we cannot afford to rectify their mistakes.

Also, based on our yearly spend vs league postion, it seems apparent that our ambition is to finish top 4. That does need to be questioned imo.
our net spend is only behind city for the past 5 years and same with our wage bill, and considering they are banked rolled by a country and basically use the club as propaganda tool, that's not exactly something to be ashamed of. We have 3 of the top 5 British transfers of all time, handed out the biggest contract in premier league history to Sanchez.

The spending has been fine, its just been spent badly. People are just having a paddy because we are refusing to pay more money then any Premier league club has ever paid for a player, which considering we are in the middle of a pandemic and economic crsis likely to be worse than anything anyone ever seen and no one really no just how big the effects on football are going to be long term, is hardly criminal.

I don't agree that just going we spent a shed tone of money and made a mess of it so now we should throw more money at the problem because that hasn't worked. We have a massive squad, very few of whom look inclined to leave. We have 7 first team center backs and people are saying we should sign another. At some point, you need to say hang on we need to sort out the mess we have before start adding to it. We need to make sure what we spend going forward is spent more wisely. To be there we have spent more wisely over the last 18 months, though I still think Maguire was a mistake for that kind of fee. But we are still handing out stupid contracts, (De Gea, Matic) and I'm guessing we will do the same to Pogba.

Even if we spend more going forward will make absolutely no difference if we continue to manage the squad as badly as we have over the last decade. And that needs to be where the criticism should be, not we need to spend our way out of the mess we have spent our way into.
 

DomesticTadpole

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our net spend is only behind city for the past 5 years and same with our wage bill, and considering they are banked rolled by a country and basically use the club as propaganda tool, that's not exactly something to be ashamed of. We have 3 of the top 5 British transfers of all time, handed out the biggest contract in premier league history to Sanchez.

The spending has been fine, its just been spent badly. People are just having a paddy because we are refusing to pay more money then any Premier league club has ever paid for a player, which considering we are in the middle of a pandemic and economic crsis likely to be worse than anything anyone ever seen and no one really no just how big the effects on football are going to be long term, is hardly criminal.

I don't agree that just going we spent a shed tone of money and made a mess of it so now we should throw more money at the problem because that hasn't worked. We have a massive squad, very few of whom look inclined to leave. We have 7 first team center backs and people are saying we should sign another. At some point, you need to say hang on we need to sort out the mess we have before start adding to it. We need to make sure what we spend going forward is spent more wisely. To be there we have spent more wisely over the last 18 months, though I still think Maguire was a mistake for that kind of fee. But we are still handing out stupid contracts, (De Gea, Matic) and I'm guessing we will do the same to Pogba.

Even if we spend more going forward will make absolutely no difference if we continue to manage the squad as badly as we have over the last decade. And that needs to be where the criticism should be, not we need to spend our way out of the mess we have spent our way into.
We have been saying this all needs sorting out for years and if won't be, because they have no idea how to put it right. They need a good DOF to do that and they are too proud to admit it.
 

Keefy18

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You have answered your own question. The scouts are likely to have knowledge of good football players unless their job specs says something else. They don’t do the negotiations and they don’t underperform in strengthening the team by not signing good footballers, that have been identified, by the people whose job it is to identify good footballers.
Well no actually I haven't, it again comes back to the manager and his ideals for the club.

The reality is this, it was the 2 Sirs who got this s*it show on the road in hiring Moyes after dropping the ball in getting Pep after a dinner in New York and Ferguson openly discusses in his book.

The board then hired arguably the best man available at the time in 2014 in LVG and then hired Jose when he was available in 2016 and Jose was largely the supporters pick and they gave most of us what we wanted.

Remember LVG and demanding the training facilities be upgraded and cameras to be installed to monitor all aspects of training? He got all that and more.
Remember Jose hiring his own head scout in Javier Ribalita who left 1 year in? https://www.independent.ie/sport/so...3-months-after-joining-the-club-37172539.html

The board have supported each and every manager for the majority and they have worked with resources the vast, vast majority of managers can only dream about and ultimately failed.

It's absolute conspiracy nonsense some of the sentiments posted about how the club is ran in reality.
 

Keefy18

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@Keefy18 as JPRouve correctly said, AC Milan had a different business model then ours. Berlusconi used to put money at the club while the Glazers take money out of the club. However while Manchester United's model is self sustainable and more resilient it still rely heavily on external sources specifically sponsors and fans. Both fans and sponsors expect success and popularity else they will either not bother about the club anymore while the young generation would end up supporting other clubs. That happened with Milan and will happen with us. If that had to happen then the club's profit and price will go down substantially.

Thus why United need to invest heavily on the squad while cutting waste and inefficiency. We need to go back on top. A top 6 place might be good for Spurs, Atalanta or Napoli but its not good for us. Not unless we're resigned in losing our spot as one of the biggest clubs in Europe.
The same argument could be made for absolutely any club. United have a sentimental fan base that will stick with it for life and generates revenue far great than Milan and it won't affect us in the same way, no way will it.

And we have invested very, very heavily in the squad in the last decade approximately. We have repeatedly broken transfer record after transfer record and had one of world football's highest wage bills.

The problem isn't spending money, it is how it is spent and that is largely on the managers.
 

Nytram Shakes

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We have been saying this all needs sorting out for years and if won't be, because they have no idea how to put it right. They need a good DOF to do that and they are too proud to admit it.
Couldnt agree more. It was clear Woodward didn't know what he was doing in terms of running the football side of things since the first summer, the Fabregas and Fellaini fiasco. And anyone who didn't see the utter disaster coming of going from Van Gaal a manager who likes his team to play with the ball and bring through youth players to Mourinho a manager who likes his teams to react to the opposition and play with experienced players and giving them both 100's of millions to spend clearly should not be running the football side of a club.
Woodward obviously does not want to give up power or admit he doesn't know what he is doing, and for me, that has been our biggest problem since Fergie left, far bigger than any perceived lack of spending.
 

Maurice Setters Training

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Any of the finance experts in here know if this is true:

“Part of the protection that covers Manchester United’s lenders — those investors who bought Manchester United Senior Secured Notes — are ‘covenants’. There are two types of covenants: ‘general covenants’, which basically keep Manchester United behaving as the lenders deem appropriate (e.g. no leftfield business mergers or acquisitions), and then there’s the far more impactful ‘financial covenants’. This financial covenant, in our opinion, explains much of the seemingly inexplicable behaviour exhibited by Manchester United in this window.

This financial covenant — this protective legal clause — requires Manchester United to maintain a minimum level of profit. This exact clause is unique to Manchester United. Here, the definition of profit is ‘EBITDA’: Earnings Before Interest, Tax, Depreciation and Amortisation, which represents the profit from which its lenders can be paid the interest that they are owed. The financial covenant requires Manchester United to generate a minimum rolling 12-month EBITDA of £65mn.”

https://medium.com/football-bureau-of-investigation/jadon-sancho-the-circus-strategy-2904b788999e
I saw that, pretty interesting/worrying if true.
 

DomesticTadpole

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Sergio Romero contract expires 2021
Diogo Dalot contract expires 2023
Phil Jones contract expires 2023, that's right 20 and fecking 23
Chris Smalling contract expires 2022
Jesse Lingard contract expires 2021
Andreas Pereira contract expires 2023
Juan Mata contract expires 2021 with year option.
This is terrifying when you look at some of the wages as well.
 

devilish

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The same argument could be made for absolutely any club. United have a sentimental fan base that will stick with it for life and generates revenue far great than Milan and it won't affect us in the same way, no way will it.

And we have invested very, very heavily in the squad in the last decade approximately. We have repeatedly broken transfer record after transfer record and had one of world football's highest wage bills.

The problem isn't spending money, it is how it is spent and that is largely on the managers.
No its not. Clubs like Roma, Napoli, Newcastle and Lazio are local based ie they are built around a region or even a city. Their club's price reflect that. Fans tend to be fewer but they are far more loyal, the sponsors they attract tend to factor that as well etc. United on the other hand is a world renowned brand. It requires far more investment to sustain and it rely more on success then that of Roma or Napoli. However the benefits and the profits are far bigger.


This team require urgent investment and it also requires football people who know what they are doing. Instead the Glazers are reluctant in putting their hands in their pockets and seem paralysed in replacing the bankers who created this mess with experienced football people to take football related decision making
 

KiD MoYeS

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Sergio Romero contract expires 2021
Diogo Dalot contract expires 2023
Phil Jones contract expires 2023, that's right 20 and fecking 23
Chris Smalling contract expires 2022
Jesse Lingard contract expires 2021
Andreas Pereira contract expires 2023
Juan Mata contract expires 2021 with year option.
This is terrifying when you look at some of the wages as well.
Another three years of Jones. :lol:
 

DanClancy

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our net spend is only behind city for the past 5 years and same with our wage bill, and considering they are banked rolled by a country and basically use the club as propaganda tool, that's not exactly something to be ashamed of. We have 3 of the top 5 British transfers of all time, handed out the biggest contract in premier league history to Sanchez.

The spending has been fine, its just been spent badly. People are just having a paddy because we are refusing to pay more money then any Premier league club has ever paid for a player, which considering we are in the middle of a pandemic and economic crsis likely to be worse than anything anyone ever seen and no one really no just how big the effects on football are going to be long term, is hardly criminal.

I don't agree that just going we spent a shed tone of money and made a mess of it so now we should throw more money at the problem because that hasn't worked. We have a massive squad, very few of whom look inclined to leave. We have 7 first team center backs and people are saying we should sign another. At some point, you need to say hang on we need to sort out the mess we have before start adding to it. We need to make sure what we spend going forward is spent more wisely. To be there we have spent more wisely over the last 18 months, though I still think Maguire was a mistake for that kind of fee. But we are still handing out stupid contracts, (De Gea, Matic) and I'm guessing we will do the same to Pogba.

Even if we spend more going forward will make absolutely no difference if we continue to manage the squad as badly as we have over the last decade. And that needs to be where the criticism should be, not we need to spend our way out of the mess we have spent our way into.
You don't know that for definite, the more you spend the more likely you're to get it right which happened at City.

Not one mention either of how much money has left the club in a variety of guises in including interest payments and dividends.
 

devilish

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"Only two clubs made dividend payments to their owners during the last 5 years, mainly #MUFC who paid £89m to the Glazers. There was another £22m in 2019/20, adding up to £111m. The £27m payment that #WBA made to their holding company in 2015/16 is not explained in the accounts" - Swiss Ramble
 

Chesterlestreet

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The average weekly salary for a Premier League player is around 40k.

And the PL is extreme - average players in other top European leagues don't rake in anywhere near those numbers.

Not to mention the rest of the world. If we wanted to ship out, say, Rojo to a club in Argentina (which seems a relevant enough example), the average weekly salary of a player in that league's top flight is below 5k.

Our most notorious "deadwood" players earn somewhere between 80k and 160k (Mata, reportedly) per week. That's insane money for the vast majority of potential buyers.

Even someone like Pereira reportedly earns 40k per week (the PL average). We could offload him to another PL club, then - sure. But any club outside England likely to be interested would certainly think twice about matching his wages.

ETA And to state the obvious: these aren't particularly attractive players. Nobody would go above and beyond in order to secure the signatures of no-marks, over-the-hill squad players, perma-crocks or...Jesse Lingard (whatever category you want to place him in).
 
Last edited:

Fosu-Mens

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"Only two clubs made dividend payments to their owners during the last 5 years, mainly #MUFC who paid £89m to the Glazers. There was another £22m in 2019/20, adding up to £111m. The £27m payment that #WBA made to their holding company in 2015/16 is not explained in the accounts" - Swiss Ramble
Are we not also paying the Glazers directors fees/salaries as well?
 

Nytram Shakes

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You don't know that for definite, the more you spend the more likely you're to get it right which happened at City.

Not one mention either of how much money has left the club in a variety of guises in including interest payments and dividends.
Nothings for certain, but building a balanced squad is far more important than spending the most money. If you can do both the yeah you're likely to win a lot. We have been spending massive money, but spending it badly! The strategy of just keeping throwing money at the problem and yes we may get lucky, but considering how bad our spending and contract handling has been it's just as likely to dig a deeper hole.