Woodward, Glazers....

[dabeast]

A Twitter rant on how capital (via the Glazers) has encaged us.

Here is a story (a bit long and I have never done this so please bear with me). In the 19th century, some railway workers in England decided to get together and form a football club. Football in England was a working-class sport, and bound communities together. They called it the Newton Heath LYR Football Club and proceeded to play other clubs close by. The games were opportunities for socializing, bound neighbours towards a common purpose and football was England's most popular sport. The club became successful but was organised in a haphazard way so couldn't pay its bills and was nearly wound up. They found four businessmen who each invested GBP 500 for a "direct interest" in running the club. They changed the club's name to Manchester United. England has a structure of connected football leagues with promotions and relegations and the club, depending on how it did on the field, yo-yo'd up and down that structure for many years.

Generations in families "supported" this club as tribes do. It was an opportunity to bond, to rail against the systems in which they toiled morning and night, to drink, to pass something on to one's children. It became the culture.

It had originally been owned by the railway company who in 1892 let supporters own a share of the club by filling out an application form and paying GBP 1. The club's ownership was thus widely-held in the community. However, after the near bankruptcy, the interests started being consolidated and by the 1960s, when the club started having more success and even won the European Cup, it was a large asset. The club's ownership was thus widely-held in the community. However, after the near bankruptcy, the interests started being consolidated and by the 1960s, when the club started having more success and even won the European Cup, it was a large asset. Seeing this connection, a savvy investor immediately started buying up outstanding shares and viewing this as a business. After the end of the Cold War, the investor saw an opportunity to monetise the equity and took it public.

Those shares meant that anyone could now control the club. In 2005, an American businessman called Glazer leveraged the club as an asset and only pledged GBP 160m ( borrowing the rest against the club itself) to buy it for GBP 800m. Since he didn't have the money, he made the club pay for the interest and hefty dividends for his and his children's upkeep. The club performance suffered but supporters kept supporting - some estimate there are now 650m supporters worldwide.

Today, Glazer is dead but his children are running the club. They take out most of the money (about GBP 1bn so far) but invest just enough so that the club makes money for them. The supporters pay money (in tickets, merchandising, TV rights) knowing they are being swindled but they have no choice. To stop supporting the club would mean they are turning their backs on their region, their culture, their families, the childhood memories of when their parents took them to a game or got excited about it.

It is one of the most supported club in the world but the only one in the grip of capital - the other two, Barcelona and Real Madrid, have managed to hold on to their widely-held supporter-owned structure. Every year, we supporters hope for the investment that will see the club prosper and every year we are faced with the same reality - the Glazers only want to make money.

Capital is supreme now, and our familial, cultural and tribal identities have been annexed by it. So we are stuck forever in this loop.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

We wont get back to the top with these cnuts owning the club

We haven't even been in a single title race since Fergie left, let alone win one. And we've spent 100's of millions in that time too.

If that's not evidence enough for people I don't know what it. Getting the Glazers out of this club (if it ever happens) will be a better day than when we clinched number 20. That's how bad the situation is.

Gave my St up during the LVG reign and not ever getting it back until they sell up.

 

[sammsky1]

 

[Kopral Jono]

I really do wonder when if ever it will all boil over. I'd assume this season since they are fecking over a club legend but then again I've been surprised/dissapointed in our fans togetherness in the past. It really does baffle me so many fans rather sit in silence than make some noise about the issues.

I get nothing changed in 2010. I was there too it was dissapointing. But atleast it was in the news. At least our point of view was known.

Now no United group of fans care enough to make a difference not atleast do it seems. Maybe they are just too jaded which is understandable as the Glazers have been fecking us for years.

All I Know is if we stuck to our guns atleast it would get some coverage. They don't deserve to get to quietly destroy the club.

Where is the communication with the fans from the owners that they promised in 2005?City's CEO does an interview on the future every season. Ed Woodward barely ever talks and when he did he said this summer we would continue to build and that our main goal is winning titles? Where is the evidence of that?

What happened to supporter groups like MUST?(sold out)

Is it so much to ask for some communication on where the club is going? If they truly valued the fans at all as anything other than consumers we wouldn't have to ask for these things.

All in all it is just exhausting and dissapointing and the fact the media and our ex players rarely if ever highlight the issues and instead focus on individuals exasperate the problem. If common ground was struck between the majority of United fans it would spread into the media and we would have a sliver of hope at things actually changing.

On bolded: unfortunately there is a deep culture of never-criticise-your-own-family-in-public, we-do-things-the-United-way sentimentality by a segment of our fans who happens to be influential within the club. This attitude is seriously holding us back.

 

[Bjerring]

I hate them with a passion, they are robbing so many people of joy and excitement.

You can't wish bad things upon people, but I wouldn't mourn it in this case.

 

[Class of 63]

Guessing not many of you will be getting a Ed Woodward tattoo any time soon.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Ed should do something useful and tell DDG to stop having selfies taken with potential transfer targets.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Guessing not many of you will be getting a Ed Woodward tattoo any time soon.

Not one that would be allowed to be shown on here anyway.

 

[laughtersassassin]

On bolded: unfortunately there is a deep culture of never-criticise-your-own-family-in-public, we-do-things-the-United-way sentimentality by a segment of our fans who happens to be influential within the club. This attitude is seriously holding us back.

IT doesn't make any sense though. Its not criticising the United family it's criticising some American twats that saddled the club in debt.

 

[ivaldo]

Liverpool have built on season after season, they are buying one of the best midfielders in the world as champions of England. Klopp is arguably the best manager in the world also, he turned Woodward down but was happy to head to Liverpool. I suspect he knew more than any of us.
Anyway, my original point still stands - Manchester United are operated as a business, the difference in prize money between first and fourth is not enough for the Glazers to justify spending to close the gap. Business men make the decisions at the club. Liverpool have made some excellent signings over recent years that we can only be jealous of. Their owners have shown to be quite eager for on field success also. Our owners do not give a f*ck. I am not saying anything outlandish here, this is all stuff we know.

And what has any of that got to do with the investment made in the transfer market? You're conflating the point. No one is arguing Liverpool haven't done those things. We've done those things too, but not with the same results. Don't confuse intention and results here. You even mention that we tried to get Klopp!

Sure. But Liverpool aren't...

They have made some excellent signings at a fraction of what we have spent. Yet again, this is a perfect example of why saying the owners don't give a shit about success is complete nonsense. We've far outspent Liverpool in order to find success. Just because we haven't found it, doesn't mean the Glazers and Fenway are in any way different. Both are run as businesses. Both understand that onfield success increases profitability.

I'm far from a standard-bearer for the Glazers, but anyone who thinks we haven't spent enough money to have a squad capable of winning the league need to give their heads a wobble.

Prize money has very little to do with it. A club's value and the power of its brand has very little to do with how much Champion League prize money it banks. The Glazers are many things, but stupid isn't one of them. They aren't making decisions based on how much prize money they might win.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

And what has any of that got to do with the investment made in the transfer market? You're conflating the point. No one is arguing Liverpool haven't don't those things. We've done those things too, but not with the same results Don't confuse intention and results here. You even mention that we tried to get Klopp!

Sure. But Liverpool aren't...

They have made some excellent signings at a fraction of what we have spent. Yet again, this is a perfect example of why saying the owners don't give a shit about success is complete nonsense. We've far outspent Liverpool in order to find success. Just because we haven't found it, doesn't mean the Glazers and Fenway are in any way different. Both are run as businesses. Both understand that onfield success increases profitability.

I'm far from a standard-bearer for the Glazers. But anyone who thinks we haven't spent enough money to have a squad capable of winning the league need to give their heads wobble.

Prize money has very little to do with it. A clubs value and the power of its brand has very little to do with how much Champion League prize money it banks. The Glazers are many things, but stupid isn't one of them. They aren't making decisions based on how much prize money they might win.

The owners only spend to get the club back into Champions League, this is the trend, this is the strategy. I never said the Glazers were stupid, stop making arguments up in your head. The Glazers and Woodward are doing exactly what they planned. Money is the reason the Glazers own the club, not glory, so of course prize money accounts for the decisions made at board level. The Glazers have shown little to no interest in closing the gap to first yet spend twice as much in transfer windows following a season with failure to qualify for Champions League. I really do not understand the argument you are presenting at this stage.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

We’ve officially turned into Arsenal. Content with getting into the Champions league each season spending the absolute bare minimum required to secure it. No interest whatsoever in actually making a proper title challenge and try and win some top silverware.

The worst thing is the signing of Jadon Sancho alone would just be enough for us to comfortably finish top 4 again this season I.e exactly what the owners want but instead their happy pocketing the money themselves and watch us potentially drift back down the table again back to square one.

 

[Man Yusuf united]

Our club has be come a widow, since her two husbands (Sir Alex, Mr Gill) pass away and now she is being plaid with two men (Hoodward, Glazer) whom are not even husband material only using her and giving her fake promises.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The owners only spend to get the club back into Champions League, this is the trend, this is the strategy. I never said the Glazers were stupid, stop making arguments up in your head. The Glazers and Woodward are doing exactly what they planned. Money is the reason the Glazers own the club, not glory, so of course prize money accounts for the decisions made at board level. The Glazers have shown little to no interest in closing the gap to first yet spend twice as much in transfer windows following a season with failure to qualify for Champions League. I really do not understand the argument you are presenting at this stage.

Difference between the owners and the fans. Owners want to be in the CL, fans want to win it.

 

[Bird Nerd]

Like I said in that post, the crime is not failing to sign Sancho but the complete lack of an alternative plan and the paralysis that has characterized our window. Greenwood is just as promising as Sancho was at a similar age but we all know that we can't rely on him for consistent performances throughout the season. I know we all hate mediocrity but there is a huge gap between Lingard/Pereira/Mata and someone like Perisic/Brooks/Bale who could have come in to help stabilize that right wing whilst Greenwood matured at his own pace like we had Fletcher and Ole filling in on he right whilst Ronaldo found his feet. We could then have used the remainder of the money to strengthen the defence, our fullback options are pathetic. The standing still is what I find unacceptable.

This is where I have a real issue. They claim to plan yet whenever we get to a window it looks a bit chaotic. If we actually had something like a director of football instead of a board having so much influence (and often following Woodward's recommendations) we may be able to have a relatively stress free and organized window. A club of our stature....any company of our stature for that matter....that would run itself like this over and over would find it is unacceptable. Full stop.

 

[Oldham]

This is so frustrating. Damn I hate the Glazers.

 

[JPRouve]

The owners only spend to get the club back into Champions League, this is the trend, this is the strategy. I never said the Glazers were stupid, stop making arguments up in your head. The Glazers and Woodward are doing exactly what they planned. Money is the reason the Glazers own the club, not glory, so of course prize money accounts for the decisions made at board level. The Glazers have shown little to no interest in closing the gap to first yet spend twice as much in transfer windows following a season with failure to qualify for Champions League. I really do not understand the argument you are presenting at this stage.

I'm surprised that people don't question that claim. In 2015/2016 we were in the Champions League and spent big, it's also worth remembering that Di Maria's sale wasn't planned and it would be disingenuous for journalists to pretend otherwise. In 2017/2018 we spent the most in the last 7 years with Lukaku, Matic, Lindelof and Sanchez. It's also worth mentioning that in terms of cash flow the club spend roughly the same amount every year on intangible assets more or less 150m.

So we basically have two CL years where we didn't invest heavily in the team and two CL seasons where we invested heavily.

 

[Skeezix]

The only guy I like and continue to like from the FTD guys.
Also Sam from UnitedPeoplesTV,

These two don't post often and when they do, they have level-headed opinions.

 

[Rajma]

It's amazing that there are no very good RF/RW players in the world apart Sancho. Clueless planning as per usual.

 

[romufc]

It's amazing that there are now very good RF/RW players in the world apart Sancho.

Who?

 

[Green_Red]

This summer is looking like it's going to be a huge missed opportunity. I won't pretend to believe Ole is the perfect man for the job or a great tactician, as there are many things left for him to prove. However, what we did end up with at the end of the season was a solid 3rd place, and more importantly a young and talented football team that had given the club a momentum and belief. That's something we needed to build on to progress to the next level. As things stand, one player signed, is just not enough. Can only hope the club sort it out over the next 3 weeks, and if not, the team can keep up their performances/results from Jan onwards.

I think we'll be hearing the "there's no value in the market" party line in the next few weeks.

 

[glazed]

Manchester United are operated as a business, the difference in prize money between first and fourth is not enough for the Glazers to justify spending to close the gap. Business men make the decisions at the club. Liverpool have made some excellent signings over recent years that we can only be jealous of. Their owners have shown to be quite eager for on field success also. Our owners do not give a f*ck. I am not saying anything outlandish here, this is all stuff we know.

Exactly this. Except it's not just about spending. It's also about restructuring. That's a really important distinction because the assets you buy have a resale and a marketing value separate from their existing footballing value. If you buy a bad player because you know you will get your money back, that's different from buying a good player where you know you won't get the money back.

 

[Green_Red]

The official Twitter account has continually tweeted pointless tweets over the past couple of weeks to receive a barrage of abusive replies everytime, mainly calling for Woodward and Glazers out. The account appears most active when support is enraged. I'm wondering is it a case of "Look how many replies we receive on social media, add an extra zero to that commercial deal." or I'm as cynical an asshole as I thought.

You need to be careful on here making claims that football clubs are media savvy and would use opportunities, even negative ones, to garner public interest and raise the clubs profile commercially.

 

[sammsky1]

The only guy I like and continue to like from the FTD guys.
Also Sam from UnitedPeoplesTV,

These two don't post often and when they do, they have level-headed opinions.

Yeah I like McKola too as he retains his identity as a match going fan with genuine fan interests as opposed to Howsen and others who want to be known as a football intellectual but don’t have the smarts or insight to pull it off.

 

[The Irish Connection]

Skip to 57:30 and watch for 2-3 mins. Everything you need to know about the way Woodward operates

That is both shocking and not surprising at the same time. For such a great player and servant of the club.
Little things like that have been leaking out over the past few years repeatedly about Woodward and the board, the way things are managed. Woodward seems to treat good communication like money.
Van Gaal, although a bit mad himself, mentioned how he was surprised how we operated.
Let’s see what happens in the remaining two weeks but even if sancho is signed, I hope people don’t just then shower praise on that lot because they repeatedly do their best to keep us mediocre.
Of course, covid 19 is, unfortunately, a valid excuse, but when we’re so close to progressing, and having taken out a loan, surely we should be getting things done.

 

[Rajma]

Who?

Well for once, we have a scouting network of hundreds of people, why do we keep those people on the payroll again? It does not seem an issue with other top clubs having several (realistic) options lined-up.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

That is both shocking and not surprising at the same time. For such a great player and servant of the club.
Little things like that have been leaking out over the past few years repeatedly about Woodward and the board, the way things are managed. Woodward seems to treat good communication like money.
Van Gaal, although a bit mad himself, mentioned how he was surprised how we operated.
Let’s see what happens in the remaining two weeks but even if sancho is signed, I hope people don’t just then shower praise on that lot because they repeatedly do their best to keep us mediocre.
Of course, covid 19 is, unfortunately, a valid excuse, but when we’re so close to progressing, and having taken out a loan, surely we should be getting things done.

For all we wanted LVG gone, the way they went about it and how he found out was not great.

 

[romufc]

Well for once, we have a scouting network of hundreds of people, why do we keep those people on the payroll again? It does not seem an issue with other top clubs having several (realistic) options lined-up.

So you cannot name any?

 

[Rajma]

So you cannot name any?

Did you read my post? I'm following United and barely ever watch any other leagues, how do you expect me to name one? Stop trying to be a clever, cause you doesn't seem one.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think we'll be hearing the "there's no value in the market" party line in the next few weeks.

Covid

Once it's over, we'll really show the world how big we are.

 

[romufc]

Did you read my post? I'm following United and barely ever watch any other leagues, how do you expect me to name one? Stop trying to be a clever, cause you doesn't seem one.

"It's amazing that there are now very good RF/RW players in the world apart Sancho. "

I am asking who are the other very good RF/RW's, if you think there are some, who?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

"It's amazing that there are now very good RF/RW players in the world apart Sancho. "

I am asking who are the other very good RF/RW's, if you think there are some, who?

He may have meant no very good RF/RW's. Remember not everyone has English as a first language.

 

[murali_red]

Here is a story (a bit long and I have never done this so please bear with me). In the 19th century, some railway workers in England decided to get together and form a football club. Football in England was a working-class sport, and bound communities together. They called it the Newton Heath LYR Football Club and proceeded to play other clubs close by. The games were opportunities for socializing, bound neighbours towards a common purpose and football was England's most popular sport. The club became successful but was organised in a haphazard way so couldn't pay its bills and was nearly wound up. They found four businessmen who each invested GBP 500 for a "direct interest" in running the club. They changed the club's name to Manchester United. England has a structure of connected football leagues with promotions and relegations and the club, depending on how it did on the field, yo-yo'd up and down that structure for many years.

Generations in families "supported" this club as tribes do. It was an opportunity to bond, to rail against the systems in which they toiled morning and night, to drink, to pass something on to one's children. It became the culture.

It had originally been owned by the railway company who in 1892 let supporters own a share of the club by filling out an application form and paying GBP 1. The club's ownership was thus widely-held in the community. However, after the near bankruptcy, the interests started being consolidated and by the 1960s, when the club started having more success and even won the European Cup, it was a large asset. The club's ownership was thus widely-held in the community. However, after the near bankruptcy, the interests started being consolidated and by the 1960s, when the club started having more success and even won the European Cup, it was a large asset. Seeing this connection, a savvy investor immediately started buying up outstanding shares and viewing this as a business. After the end of the Cold War, the investor saw an opportunity to monetise the equity and took it public.

Those shares meant that anyone could now control the club. In 2005, an American businessman called Glazer leveraged the club as an asset and only pledged GBP 160m ( borrowing the rest against the club itself) to buy it for GBP 800m. Since he didn't have the money, he made the club pay for the interest and hefty dividends for his and his children's upkeep. The club performance suffered but supporters kept supporting - some estimate there are now 650m supporters worldwide.

Today, Glazer is dead but his children are running the club. They take out most of the money (about GBP 1bn so far) but invest just enough so that the club makes money for them. The supporters pay money (in tickets, merchandising, TV rights) knowing they are being swindled but they have no choice. To stop supporting the club would mean they are turning their backs on their region, their culture, their families, the childhood memories of when their parents took them to a game or got excited about it.

It is one of the most supported club in the world but the only one in the grip of capital - the other two, Barcelona and Real Madrid, have managed to hold on to their widely-held supporter-owned structure. Every year, we supporters hope for the investment that will see the club prosper and every year we are faced with the same reality - the Glazers only want to make money.

Capital is supreme now, and our familial, cultural and tribal identities have been annexed by it. So we are stuck forever in this loop.

The structure of Real and Barca is also not the best imhoe, there is greater chance of corruption and bad decisions. I think we just have to live with what it is and keep putting pressure however we can, eventually in one or two decades club will be a lot better financially. No matter what Glazers do the history of the club will always be there and if club does very bad then they will sell off to a new owner. But the stature of the club is such that if it doesn't reach top 4 consistently and there will surely be a backlash from the fans, so they can't do too badly either. They should balance financially as well as reputation else they'll suffer, which they also know.

 

[romufc]

He may have meant no very good RF/RW's. Remember not everyone has English as a first language.

That's fair, which is why I asked who, only to get abused about my intellegence.

 

[Foxbatt]

I am just going to watch and enjoy. No more expectations for United until Woodward leaves.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

That's fair, which is why I asked who, only to get abused about my intellegence.

Have you ever noticed that when we scout somebody the ones who make decisions on scouting reports seem more intent on the negative rather than what that player could actually bring to the team. All players have a negative.
This lot would probably say Andy Cole misses too many chances before he scores, Teddy Sheringham is too slow and Dwight Yorke is a bit of a lad.

 

[The Irish Connection]

For all we wanted LVG gone, the way they went about it and how he found out was not great.

Absolutely, it’s completely against the way Fergie ran things.

 

[RedDevil@84]

When is the Ole presser

Guess it will be "The market is still open" till the last week and then "We are happy with our squad" in October.

 

[DanClancy]

It's a stretch on my part because I don't consider that they were bad, now while United were juggernauts in the 90s, they stalled in the early 2000s until 2006 while Real Madrid and Barcelona made a comeback and in the case of Madrid surpassed United.

I'd be confident that if United had continued as a PLC their commercial revenue wouldn't have continued to stall, its extremely far fetched to suggest the Glazers are responsible for United's commercial strength; Its clear this is down to United's popularity as a football club around the world and not some marketing guru they employ.

Barca were lagging behind United when the Glazers took over and even by 2011 which was 6 years into the Glazers ownership Barca had gone from 42.4m in 2005 to 141.1m whilst United went from 48.7m to 103.4m during the same period.

 

[JPRouve]

That's fair, which is why I asked who, only to get abused about my intellegence.

It's for an other thread but since we need depth beyond RF/RW, I would have looked at players like Marcus Thuram and Odegaard. I would go back for Sancho next summer but we don't have to be obsessed with him this year it's a long term rebuild and we have room for improvement in several attacking spots.