Workrate

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Pogue Mahone, Sep 17, 2016.

  1. May 2, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Don't agree. Workrate stats are an intrinsic part of the data that coaches use for analysis.
    From my perspective, while distance covered and sprints are of use, to really understand how the team is operating as a system you need to break down these into offensive and defensive numbers.

    Clearly you would like the offensive to be higher than defensive. But for a pressing team the defensive numbers will be important.

    In the modern game, space is at a premium.
    The pitch is basically the same size as are the number of players. So. The only way to get space is to create it by moving.
    I have to say that the team that is the best at creating space is City.
    Their players are drilled into finding space by quick movement thus dragging the opposition out of a formation and opening up gaps.
    You don't actually have to move that far, just a few meters.
    As a result you can sustain this movement for the whole match.
    It is about using your brain.
    Something our players are terrible at.
  2. May 2, 2019

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    It's only relevant when in context but Martial's 'workrate' stats are horrendous no matter how you look at it, as are Lukaku's.

    In a front three where 2 of them don't make runs, it's no wonder the issues with creativity and possession then roll back into our midfield and defence. I wonder how Pogba would play if he had Liverpool's front three ahead of him for example, he'd have so many 'out' balls when under pressure and two more options when attacking...as opposed to Martial wanting it to feet out wide and Lukaku just pointing at shit when he's man marked
  3. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    Number 9’s in general do not cover as much ground as players in wider positions. Martial has no excuse. When Lukaku was asked to play on the right against Liverpool he was up and down despite his body type.
  4. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    Mata is always on the move, he just lacks pace.
  5. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Lukaku is as bad as Martial is distance cover. There are #9s like Kane who works their socks off and then we have a #9 who is out of breath after 1 sprint.
  6. May 2, 2019

    crossy1686 Full Member

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    As simple as it is, you cover more ground per game and you've got more of a chance of things going in your favour.

    I remember when Moyes took over West Ham, they were a team that covered the least ground in the whole PL and were looking like relegation fodder. He ensured they out run the opponents and things started going their way.

    A more relevant example perhaps, as we don't aspire to be West Ham or anything, you look at the work rate of Ajax the other night, they wanted every loose ball and ran Spurs into problems. If that wasn't ad advert for what's expected from our lot then nothing is. I'd show them that video all pre-season about how fit they should be to play in the team moving forward.
  7. May 2, 2019

    Minimalist New Member

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    It’s massive issue in terms of quality alone. The fact they’re physically limited is just compounding matters.
  8. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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  9. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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  10. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    Well that’s the Champions League. Regardless, as a number 9 you are generally going to cover less ground than a player in a wider position. Martial is just embarrasing. There is a clear advantage for Martial in terms of body type as well compared to Lukaku.
  11. May 2, 2019

    Havak Pokemon master

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    Hopefully Ole is willing to ship out the players that can't meet his standards of fitness. I assume it will be a slightly earlier start to pre-season than usual for a lot of our guys and distance running / repetitive sprints will be a major focus leading up to the season. Some of the lads might feel this again towards the end of the next season, but as long as it keeps getting drilled in it should benefit us for the next few years to come. We might have to take a hit in more ways than one next season and it could be disappointing, but it might be for the greater good. What will be worse is if Ole gets the boot after a season and this work goes to waste with a new manager taking a different approach - that is my main worry for us going forward. It has to be all-in and every player buys into it or we might as well not even start it.
  12. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Of course, Martial is a disgrace so is Lukaku. Most of the team are btw, they low distance covered and sprints is just embarrassing for the team that used to have hardest workers in league.
  13. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    There are at least real factors and reasons why Rom would have lower running stats. Martial has no reason.
  14. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    No. Lukaku has lower running stats as he is heavy, lazy and out of breath after a sprint.
  15. May 2, 2019

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Shaw’s actually been pretty good this season. Despite being (as usual) nowhere near fit enough. Just goes to show what an excellent LB he could be if he lost several kg and worked on his cardio. As usual, I’m completely baffled by professional footballers in sub-optimal physical condition. What the feck, like?
  16. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    Do you agree that number 9’s generally cover less ground than wide players?

    Do you agree that he has a different body type compared to someone like Martial?

    If the answer is yes then those are two reasons and factors. Martial has no reasons.
  17. May 2, 2019

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    He is lazy, while also lacking overall football intelligence.
  18. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    I didn't deny any of that. Doesn't mean Lukaku is not lazy and barely moves. His body is his problem. No one told him to bulk like a wrestler.

    All you are doing is finding excuses for Lukaku.
  19. May 2, 2019

    haram Full Member

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    No, I said there are at least reasons and factors that impact Lukaku’s stats. There is no reasons for Martial yet he is rock bottom out of all players.
  20. May 2, 2019

    Zlaatan Parody Account

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    Lukaku is a big, physical target player and his main job is hold up play and being in the box to score goals. To think that he should run more than our wide forwards doesn't make much sense. Even so, what Lukaku does or doesn't do isn't an excuse for Martial.
  21. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Where did I say that?
  22. May 2, 2019

    caid Full Member

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    Lukakus stats are a bit low. Martials are shamefully low.
  23. May 2, 2019

    Zlaatan Parody Account

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    When you say that Lukaku is "as bad as Martial in distance covered" you're completely ignoring their skill sets, body types and actual purpose on the pitch. There's a reason guys like Lukaku, Heskey and Crouch were used in one particular way and players like Mane, Aguero and Tevez in another. You simply can't have the same expectations when it comes to movement and distance covered from both sets of players, and it becomes even more of a different situation when you compare the big guys to wide forwards like Martial who has a much bigger defensive obligation than a nr.9 as well.
  24. May 2, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Good point.
    It would be pretty interesting to hear from anyone who does not think that Martial is just plain lazy.
  25. May 2, 2019

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Quite agree. If anything he looks even bigger lately.
    Having said that I am really pleased with how he has performed this season. His passing accuracy is becoming a real asset.
  26. May 2, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Saying Lukaku is as bad as Martial doesn't mean I expect Lukaku to cover more distance than Martial. His workrate is bad no matter what excuses you post.

    I don't know why people keep saying body types, why he should be excused for bulking up? He barely sprints and gassed out before half time and we have people trying to play it down.

    You are posting as if I'm excusing Martial. Ofcourse both are awful. Out of 25 players who covered least distance, 6 were not CBs. Among them second was Martial and 5th was Lukaku. 2nd was arnautovic, one more player Jose wanted.

    Btw I wasn't the one who started the comparison.

    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  27. May 2, 2019

    RedDevilCanuck Quite dreamy - blue eyes, blond hair, tanned skin

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    At one point we had Rooney, Fletch, Park, Tevez, Hargreaves and Evra.

    We were the best team in the world.
  28. May 3, 2019

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Just to put Shaw’s sprints in context.

    Here are the average sprints per 90 mins of the “sprintiest” fullbacks in the league.

    Ben Chilwell Leicester 21.03
    Andrew Robertson Liverpool 18.95
    Ryan Sessegnon Fulham 18.95
    Kyle Walker Man City 17.73



    EDIT: Someone else did the maths and converted Shaw’s sprints into per 90. Apparently he averages 11. So Chilwell et al sprint between 50% more and twice as much in every game. FFS.
  29. May 3, 2019

    Gio ★★★★★★★★

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    It doesn't look good. Although I'm not sure what effect Mourinho's tactics of keeping the full-backs a lot more reserved (relative to other managers) will have had on those figures (i.e. are there trends within the season?)
  30. May 3, 2019

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Yeah. Would love to know that too. To be honest I don’t even know which four matches the 11 sprints per 90 comes from.

    On the plus side, it does simplify our issues. In the modern game it’s fecking criminal having fullbacks who are so evidently lacking in basic fitness. Explains so much that is wrong with our football, at both ends of the pitch. So if Ole can “fix” that over the summer we’ll improve massively.
  31. May 3, 2019

    kundalini Full Member

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    First 4 matches in the PL this season. Pretty obvious if you look at the line-ups and see who started most games and who didn't. Otherwise you wouldn't have Pogba at the top of the distance covered, as he is typically 1 km per 90 mins down on the other central midfielders.

    Weird G. Neville article. He isn't even close when he states modern full-backs have to run 12 to 13 kms per game; no-one does that. Trippier is the only player I can think of, who runs about 11 km. How are Salah, Mane, Sterling etc, any different to Ronaldo starting wide, then moving inside to score tons of goals, towards the end of his time at United?
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  32. May 3, 2019

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Ah. Well there you go. We need to know if that’s changed under Ole.
  33. May 3, 2019

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    If I'm not mistaken we went from bottom third to top third during the first months of Ole, so you can imagine that everyone contributed.
  34. May 6, 2019

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    Compare this to Pogba, matic, lukaku, Martial, lingard, mata.
  35. May 6, 2019

    ti vu Full Member

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    You're doing someone like Ronaldo, Nani disservice with that list. Workrate is not just defensive work which used to be the excuse the fanboys used when Mourinho was still the manager. Being active when there is change of possession and available for pass, initiate (counter)attack is also workrate which Ronaldo, Nani never lacked. Something it shows now that there is no Mourinho to blame.
  36. May 6, 2019

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    He signed matic and Mkh over kante and mane and lukaku over griezmann and pogba as well perfectly knowing his weaknesses and expect him to play a role he is not good at.
  37. May 6, 2019

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    What kind of list is that? Lingard runs his ass off. There are countless examples of Lukaku busting a gut to get back. Mata never stops running. Lukaku being out of shape and Mata being slow doesn't change the fact they often work very hard on the pitch.
  38. May 6, 2019

    Minimalist New Member

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    We're a lot more passive now.
  39. May 6, 2019

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

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    Who's the one who busted a gut back to make the slide tackle and block?
  40. May 6, 2019

    ti vu Full Member

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    Kante chose Chelsea, he said it himself. Griezmann was not available. Even when the talk about moving to Barcelona, the guy just acted an attention whore before renewing with Atletico. You talked re Mane with hindsight. The guy played left wing often which many agreed that should be given to Martial. Mkhitaryan failed due to his mentality, he doesn't lack in the so called workrate, going up and down the pitch, and he had a productive season with Dortmund. It's not like signing a unproductive lazy ass player this season while turning down Mane of this season (the Mane hype was not on the same level when he was not as productive, especially his first for Liverpool)

    Pogba played what position under Deschamps in which France and both finals and won WC?

    You're moving the topic when it's about workrate. Mourinho is not here, why is the same issue now?