Would Moyes have really done any worse?

CM10

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Moyes wasn't cut out for United and it affected him in his next couple of jobs too. He's back at the level he can handle now.
 

kthanksbye

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It's true that Moyes was the only manager post SAF who did not get to overhaul the team, but he was also the only manager post SAF who had a very settled squad full of league winners. Yes, Moyes would've done a LOT worse.
 

Grande

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Only manager post SAF that didn't get to overhaul the squad...would've done better than van Gaal or even Mourinho imo. Yeah, I know it's not cool not to hate on him. Was great at Everton...would've liked to see him sign Kroos and Cavani like he wanted to.
I don’t have an issue with Motes, and I am actually happy he’s doing well at West Ham now.

I don’t think it’s a fair summary though, thst he didn’t get to do an overhaul.

I’d say he did a full overhaul of the coaching staff, which was a mistake, and he didn’t manage to do an overhaul of the squad because he underestimated the job, took to long of a vacation, overestimated the squad, underestimated what it takes to get players like Fabregas, Thiago, Kroos, and even Baines and Fellaini and overestimated said Fellaini.

He was out of his league at United, because he is a good but limited manager.
 

032Devil

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I don’t have an issue with Motes, and I am actually happy he’s doing well at West Ham now.

I don’t think it’s a fair summary though, thst he didn’t get to do an overhaul.

I’d say he did a full overhaul of the coaching staff, which was a mistake, and he didn’t manage to do an overhaul of the squad because he underestimated the job, took to long of a vacation, overestimated the squad, underestimated what it takes to get players like Fabregas, Thiago, Kroos, and even Baines and Fellaini and overestimated said Fellaini.

He was out of his league at United, because he is a good but limited manager.
So, your basically saying that he got everything wrong but is a good manager (with limits).
 

lex talionis

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The United job was too big for Moyes, as it is for most managers. Such a man needs credibility and vision. Moyes lacked both.
 

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To give it some balance I would expect that with more time Moyes would have improved to an extent, but it would be dependant on whether he could attract the players he required for a rebuild (having only managed to sign Fellaini which was so underwhelming it's untrue.)

So it depends on whether he would have attracted the players required to kick on. I think he's proven he's tactically capable within the league, you can see that with West Ham. I'm not saying he would have been a success here, just that he would have improved from the point at which he left, if given time.
 

kopviolator

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It's true that Moyes was the only manager post SAF who did not get to overhaul the team, but he was also the only manager post SAF who had a very settled squad full of league winners. Yes, Moyes would've done a LOT worse.
In all fairness, it was amazing that Fergie won the league with that squad. I dont thinki there is another manager who could have won with this group a year older, taking over from Fergie with no additions. That's not saying Moyes was the right man though.
 

Tony247

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Did Fellaini, his star signing and one who he knew how to utilize effectively, play in this game ?
I mean, this should've been heaven for the lanky Belgium.
Wasn't even on bench. Rooney, mata, Carrick, RVP, and that football.
 
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In all fairness, it was amazing that Fergie won the league with that squad. I dont thinki there is another manager who could have won with this group a year older, taking over from Fergie with no additions. That's not saying Moyes was the right man though.
This myth has grown over the years. We lost it on goal difference the previous year. We had a great keeper and defence, brilliant sitting midfielder, rooney, van persie.

Overall it was still a sqaud packed with mutliple champions, european champions. We could have won Europe that season too bar the Nani red card.

It wasn't a shit squad of players. Moyes just couldn't manage top players
 

Rojofiam

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I don’t have an issue with Motes, and I am actually happy he’s doing well at West Ham now.

I don’t think it’s a fair summary though, thst he didn’t get to do an overhaul.

I’d say he did a full overhaul of the coaching staff, which was a mistake, and he didn’t manage to do an overhaul of the squad because he underestimated the job, took to long of a vacation, overestimated the squad, underestimated what it takes to get players like Fabregas, Thiago, Kroos, and even Baines and Fellaini and overestimated said Fellaini.

He was out of his league at United, because he is a good but limited manager.
First of all, everytime a manager joins a new club, he basically brings his coaching staff with him, that decision from him was blown out of proportion.

Secondly, it's not the manager that has to sign the players, it's just simply not his job to "estimate" what it would take to sign X player...

Yeah, he might not have worked out in the long run and it's very possible that you're right. Still, I feel like he had it the worst out of all 4 post-SAF managers.
 

PeteManic

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Moyes would have done fine if he had just come in as a Fergie chosen one as he was and just kept everyone happy and everything ticking over. Instead he made the choice to impose himself and it backfired. He could have used Fergie like Ole is clearly using Fergie. But it all went to shit. Fergie is still to blame for all of that mind. He was saving his legacy over the legacy of the club.
 

stevoc

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This myth has grown over the years. We lost it on goal difference the previous year. We had a great keeper and defence, brilliant sitting midfielder, rooney, van persie.

Overall it was still a sqaud packed with mutliple champions, european champions. We could have won Europe that season too bar the Nani red card.

It wasn't a shit squad of players. Moyes just couldn't manage top players
Its a tedious and disrespectful one peddled mostly by Moyes apologists over the years that is now repeated by lots of people without thought.

That squad wasn't a great one and it needed work but it was a very good and very experienced squad. With a younger average age than most people realize, but Moyes couldn't do anything with them and Van Gaal had no interest in even trying. Had we went from Ferguson straight to Mourinho i think he would have won at least one league title with them.

Plus this idea that only Ferguson could win with that squad and also that Ferguson could take any ragtag group of average players and win a fecking league title with them is bizarre. He was a genius not a magician, even Fergie needed good players to win things.
 

stevoc

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To give it some balance I would expect that with more time Moyes would have improved to an extent, but it would be dependant on whether he could attract the players he required for a rebuild (having only managed to sign Fellaini which was so underwhelming it's untrue.)

So it depends on whether he would have attracted the players required to kick on. I think he's proven he's tactically capable within the league, you can see that with West Ham. I'm not saying he would have been a success here, just that he would have improved from the point at which he left, if given time.
Well he would have did well to do much worse.

3-2 at home vs Stoke and 1-0 at home vs Arsenal.

Those two games were the only league games we won against the teams that finished in the top 10 that year, let that sink in.
 

DuruttiColumn

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I always wondered if Carlos Queiroz would have done worse than Moyes, LVG and Jose did
 

RUCK4444

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Well he would have did well to do much worse.

3-2 at home vs Stoke and 1-0 at home vs Arsenal.

Those two games were the only league games we won against the teams that finished in the top 10 that year, let that sink in.
Yeah and that factors into my thinking, he would have stabilised eventually and settled into some mediocre mid-table finish.

Without the knowledge of how he would have spent and rebuilt its hard to determine how well/poor he would have done I suppose. Nevertheless he would never reach the heights we demand.
 

Bondi77

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If Jose had gone to West Ham and did what Moyes is doing now people would be saying how great a manager he was and that he could cut it a t a lower club,
Just saying..
 

stevoc

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Yeah and that factors into my thinking, he would have stabilised eventually and settled into some mediocre mid-table finish.

Without the knowledge of how he would have spent and rebuilt its hard to determine how well/poor he would have done I suppose. Nevertheless he would never reach the heights we demand.
Yeah scrapping it out with Wolves and Everton to finish 6th would have been the height of it.
 

stevoc

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If Jose had gone to West Ham and did what Moyes is doing now people would be saying how great a manager he was and that he could cut it a t a lower club,
Just saying..
He basically has.

Mourinho's Tottenham side sit only 3 points behind West Ham. Don't see many claiming Jose's still a great manager.
 

Bondi77

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He basically has.

Mourinho's Tottenham side sit only 3 points behind West Ham. Don't see many claiming Jose's still a great manager.
You think West Ham are on the same level as a club as Spurs?
 

Grande

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So, your basically saying that he got everything wrong but is a good manager (with limits).
He got most of it wrong at Man Utd, yes. I think he was out of his comfort zone in a situation that catered to his weaknesses and not to his strengths, and he reacted badly to it as well.

Real Sociedad was right kind of club, wrong kind of culture including football culture, methinks, he made some clear bloopers there that messed it up for him. In his right environment, he’s done very good work at Preston, Everton and West Ham twice. Sunderland didn’t go too well, but I think many would have struggledthere at that point. You don’t do what he did at those three other clubs without being a good manager, but those other jobs showed some of his limitations up pretty clearly.

Surroundings count, just ask Romelu Lukaku.
 

stevoc

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You think West Ham are on the same level as a club as Spurs?
Club or team? There's a difference.

Spurs still a have a few top players but the majority of their squad wouldn't look out of place in West Hams team.

Plus i wouldn't look into too much West Hams performance this year, this has been a strange season all round. Last year Sheffield were in with a chance of qualifying for the Champions League yet this year they are getting relegated. If Moyes replicates this season in the next 2 or 3 then we can say if he's a good manager again, or not.
 

JakeC

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Moyes wasn't cut out for United and it affected him in his next couple of jobs too. He's back at the level he can handle now.
It's true that Moyes was the only manager post SAF who did not get to overhaul the team, but he was also the only manager post SAF who had a very settled squad full of league winners. Yes, Moyes would've done a LOT worse.
Schrodingers manager
 

Bondi77

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Club or team? There's a difference.

Spurs still a have a few top players but the majority of their squad wouldn't look out of place in West Hams team.

Plus i wouldn't look into too much West Hams performance this year, this has been a strange season all round. Last year Sheffield were in with a chance of qualifying for the Champions League yet this year they are getting relegated. If Moyes replicates this season in the next 2 or 3 then we can say if he's a good manager again, or not.
Every season there are teams outside the top six that have good seasons but cannot sustain it the following season because of injuries, players being bought and basically squad depth so this is no different.
The guy was not the right guy for Utd because he is a defence minded coach but there is no doubt he is a decent manager given the job he did at Everton and what he is doing now.
 

Grande

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First of all, everytime a manager joins a new club, he basically brings his coaching staff with him, that decision from him was blown out of proportion.

Secondly, it's not the manager that has to sign the players, it's just simply not his job to "estimate" what it would take to sign X player...

Yeah, he might not have worked out in the long run and it's very possible that you're right. Still, I feel like he had it the worst out of all 4 post-SAF managers.
I’m not sure if it’s what you mean, but it reads like you think that taking over one of the world’s five biggest and most successful clubs (at the time), and replacing the entire coaching staff with Everton coaches and an ex player withbadges but no coaching experience sounds like a good idea. I think it sounded like a bad idea then, and I think how things played out confirmed it was a bad idea. What most managers do in most new jobs isn’t really enough to go by, as this situation was pretty particular. If you think it was a good idea in this case, I’m open to hearing why.

Secondly, if you think that a manager never is involved in transfers or has any bearing on transfer priorities changing through a window, I think you are very wrong. I think Solskjær did a lot of mistakes with transfer dealings with Vincent Tan at Cardiff, and clearly learnt from them. I think there is quite a bit of evidence that Moyes made many errors at United. The first was taking a normal vacation before he was going to make a threefold step up. If he trusted rookie Woodward to take a list and leave it him to it until August, that would be a second mistake. There is not much pointing towards Moyes being not listened to or overruled when it comes to that transfer window based on what has come out after. If he had spent about every hour since he was approached by Sir Alex assessing the squad, listening to scouts experienced in getting United class players, and lobbying/working together with Woodward at getting the best realistic necessary reinforcements, I doubt Fellaini would have been his one signing.

I think he was out of his depth and didn’t realise it, didn’t take the consequences of it. I think it’s fair to say that his decisions, and the results of his decisions, all corroborates that understanding in his time at United.
 

stevoc

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Every season there are teams outside the top six that have good seasons but cannot sustain it the following season because of injuries, players being bought and basically squad depth so this is no different.
The guy was not the right guy for Utd because he is a defence minded coach but there is no doubt he is a decent manager given the job he did at Everton and what he is doing now.
Yes going off those two jobs he is a decent manager.

But then that is ignoring the jobs he did at United, Sociedad, Sunderland and West Ham that got him sacked 4 times in a row in between.

So as i said if he can replicate this season over the next few years then yeah he can definitely be considered a good manager again who just went through a rough patch for 7 years. But if he can't replicate it then he's a manager who had one good season in a decade, in which case he's most likely past his best.
 

stevoc

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First of all, everytime a manager joins a new club, he basically brings his coaching staff with him, that decision from him was blown out of proportion.

Secondly, it's not the manager that has to sign the players, it's just simply not his job to "estimate" what it would take to sign X player...

Yeah, he might not have worked out in the long run and it's very possible that you're right. Still, I feel like he had it the worst out of all 4 post-SAF managers.
True but in 99.9% of cases the previous manager (and quite often the coaching staff) have been sacked. In this case the manager retired after 27 years of almost constant success, and when the same guy who's just had 27 years of success hand picks you to succeed him. And then proceeds to advise you to keep the current coaching staff in place, then you'd be a fool to ignore that advice.
 

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Moyes was ahead of his time.

You read it correctly. I said it. Those 81 crosses versus Fulham? Mastermind.

Only half a decade later and Liverpool won a league and CL with Moyes' philosophy of cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, cross.
 

Red Stone

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The title of this thread should be "Could Moyes really have done any worse?"

The answer is no. He was shite.
 

Foxbatt

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Moyes was ahead of his time.

You read it correctly. I said it. Those 81 crosses versus Fulham? Mastermind.

Only half a decade later and Liverpool won a league and CL with Moyes' philosophy of cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, cross, cross.
Yes if he Fellaini playing it's understandable. He bought Fellaini and then failed to find the best position for him. Jose used Fellaini but Moyes had no idea how to use him at United.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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You sir, have a very short memory. Do you remember the wrong records broken one by one by this clown? Fellini? Fullham? Vidic incidence? How he tore open years of staffs who were expert coaches assembled by SAF to bring in fecking evertons staffs? We not great now but we were never a parody. He broke the club, the poster was absolutely right to call on you. Delete this car crash of thread.
 

Johnson Yip

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First of all, everytime a manager joins a new club, he basically brings his coaching staff with him, that decision from him was blown out of proportion.

Secondly, it's not the manager that has to sign the players, it's just simply not his job to "estimate" what it would take to sign X player...

Yeah, he might not have worked out in the long run and it's very possible that you're right. Still, I feel like he had it the worst out of all 4 post-SAF managers.
Bringing his own coaching staffs is entirely different from doing an overhaul for the whole backroom. It doesn't make sense even for a mid-table club never mind at United - you need continuity bearing in mind we were the reigning champion!!!
 

Nou_Camp99

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We are dreadful? 2nd in league, in last 8 of FA Cup and last 16 in Europa League and only lost 4 PL games all season.

You don't know what dreadful means.