Scored twice against Derby in the 1976 semi-final at Hillsborough. That was some day. It's hard to believe it was over 40 years ago.United fans were packed into the Leppings Lane end as well as into a substantial section of the other end. The noise level was very high.
Would United have won the league with Tommy Docherty?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Some of my friends went, but I was far from a fan and declined their invitation to join them.
A few days later he was on Top Of The Pops doing The Jean Genie and I was hooked...
It was Wilf that wanted to sign Colin Todd to replace Bill Foulkes as early as 1969. Busby got him Ian Ure instead
Hmmm. Only four points behind them in 1976, despite a fairly generous defence and Paddy Roche for several games. As I've said elsewhere, Liverpool were only just starting to turn into a juggernaut then.
I'm far from convinced that they'd have got much better under Docherty had he not been sacked in 77 though.
Yes, a proper cockney who had the attitude to match, my dad says: flamboyant and passionate.
On a slightly different note, I wonder what the reaction to a manager having an affair with his physio's wife would be these days?
To be honest, I wasn't into glam (that's how he was seen at the time) but my mate Graham convinced me to go. He dragged me to a Sweet gig at UMIST too and they were brilliant. Totally different to the teenybopper band they were on TOTP.
It was a fun time for sure. 72-73 was a poor season and we almost went down but the supporters were great. There was the whole "Scotland United" thing going on with tartan scarves everywhere. The team was kicking in at the Stretford End when a kid ran on dressed in a kilt and started doing a highland fling on the goal line. Law was almost pissing himself laughing. Newcastle came down and McDonald was gobbing off but that stopped when Big Jim almost put him in orbit with a tackle. McDonald had a column in the Sun and said he never wanted to meet Holton again.
Lou Macari came down from Celtic after his move to Liverpool was hijacked by Paddy Crerand and he scored on his debut against West Ham on a murky Saturday afternoon. After relegation, I remember the misery only lasting a short while after it occurred to supporters that 2nd Division grounds would present hitherto unexploited opportunities for mayhem. I suppose you had to be there but football today is very sanitized compared to how it was.
Big Jim Holton....."6'2, eyes of blue, big Jim Holton's after you...".....can see 'SuperMac' having a problem with him....
Gordon Hill indeed was sold by Dave Sexton, to Derby I think (was the Doc there then?). The 'thinking man's coach' was ridiculed by Hill later who said something to the effect of 'you'd need a PhD to understand his team talks'. Hilarious, of course, and one can only imagine what the stories would have been had social media existed in those days.
Gordon Hill indeed was sold by Dave Sexton, to Derby I think (was the Doc there then?). The 'thinking man's coach' was ridiculed by Hill later who said something to the effect of 'you'd need a PhD to understand his team talks'. Hilarious, of course, and one can only imagine what the stories would have been had social media existed in those days.
You're an old school red, mate. It's just like listening to my dad.
Well according to Willie Morgan Tommy Doc was a toxic box of frogs.
He has said in the past that Tommy told lots of untruths about players, created false dramas, had his own favourites and disliked anyone who challenged his opinion.
Thank goodness we have moved away from that eh!
I remember listening to Tommy do lots of Radio commmentary back in the day and whilst he was entertaining he did talk a lot of rubbish and made things up.
I'm not saying you need to be honest to win the league but he lacked the skills to build a long term dynasty certainly.
He has said in the past that Tommy told lots of untruths about players, created false dramas, had his own favourites and disliked anyone who challenged his opinion.
Thank goodness we have moved away from that eh!
I remember listening to Tommy do lots of Radio commmentary back in the day and whilst he was entertaining he did talk a lot of rubbish and made things up.
I'm not saying you need to be honest to win the league but he lacked the skills to build a long term dynasty certainly.
Away at Blackpool was epic! I had to run down an up escalator in Woolworths to escape from a load of home fans. How I managed to find my way on my own into the only place in downtown Blackpool not to have been taken over by United fans was extraordinary.
Aside from the mayhem opportunities, the best thing about the second division was that the style of football was fabulous. Docherty had had us playing like a team of cloggers to avoid relegation. Immediately upon relegation virtually the same squad suddenly transformed into playing beautiful attacking football. Maybe that should give us hope in our present predicament
To be fair to Sexton, we only finished two points behind Liverpool in his best season (1979/80). And his QPR side that pipped us to second place in 1975/76 played some lovely football.
Yeah, when Holton got his second leg break I got a post card from a cockney mate "6'2", eyes of blue, now Big Jim has broken two". Twat.Big Jim Holton....."6'2, eyes of blue, big Jim Holton's after you...".....can see 'SuperMac' having a problem with him....
Gordon Hill indeed was sold by Dave Sexton, to Derby I think (was the Doc there then?). The 'thinking man's coach' was ridiculed by Hill later who said something to the effect of 'you'd need a PhD to understand his team talks'. Hilarious, of course, and one can only imagine what the stories would have been had social media existed in those days.
I've not long since re-read "CALL THE DOC", i'm sure he mentioned Todd in that, could be wrong though, might have just been his admiration of him as a player as opposed to trying to sign him.It was Wilf that wanted to sign Colin Todd to replace Bill Foulkes as early as 1969. Busby got him Ian Ure instead
Fantastic atmosphere at games. you could hear the noise from the Stadium from Hulme and the game hadn't even started yet. End to end football, very exciting to watch. I think Docherty would have won the league by 1980. What let that team down was the old Trafford Pitch. It was terrible. During January February there wasn't a blade of grass on it. They were playing on a swamp.
Watching that brought back memories - Interesting 1min 15 seconds in on bottom right you can see Fellaini's dad celebrating Hills' first goal.
Yes and most first division (as it was called then) were similar - just a patch of flattened mud, sometimes sprayed green, for most of the Winter. No wonder we struggled when our ethos was to pass it on the ground
And what the feck did that have to do with football? Not only that they've stayed together after all these years. So he wasn't just having a fling on the side exactly. Fecking hypocrites all of em!
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I know for one (after living in Sweden a good number of years) there wouldn't have been a reaction at all if that had happened in the Scandinavian countries. Has feck all to do with football and is just an example of people in higher places thinking they're whiter than white passing judgement on other people. I mean it's not as if that sort of thing didn't exist in all classes of society in England at the time. Load of hypocrites!
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Yeah some good players in there. Buchan was a classy defender who would walk into our team now. Stewart Houston was also quick going forward and fits the mould of a modern day fullback. Sammy Mac was a great servant for the club but unfortunately for him he was Irish, from Belfast, came through the academy as another certain Irishman. The comparison and expectations were inevitable and weighed him down. Poor lad!
I think that it wasn't so much the affair but that he actively sent Laurie Brown off on spurious errands / trips away so that he could spend time with his wife.
Tommy has claimed it was hypocrisy, even making unsubstantiated claims that Sir Matt used to enjoy staying with a special someone on trips down to London with the club.
Now Tommy is well known for being economical with the truth at times but he could have handled things better with Laurie definitely.
Yeah people seem to forget this about Doc. Told Morgan he was leaving him off the overseas preseason tour to work on his fitness (was coming back from surgery) then told the papers he'd put him on the transfer list for refusing to go on tour.
Also told Denis law he'd have a new contract for him only for Denis to find out in a newspaper that he'd been released.
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Ian Ure instead of Colin Todd. Bloody hell that's like wanting the latest model BMW and getting an old Ford Consul.It was Wilf that wanted to sign Colin Todd to replace Bill Foulkes as early as 1969. Busby got him Ian Ure instead
I remember fondly my first United match, it was during the Doc era. Leeds United at home, attendance 60,612. Stood in the Stretford end like a sardine, what an experience! We won 1-0, I can't remember who hit the ball but seem to remember it going in off Trevor Cherry's hand. And I also remember being shoehorned in next to a huge guy in his 50s who spent most of the match calling Joe Jordan a b*st*rd!
An era of great times, but at the same time much unpredictability - I don't think we'd have won the title though. As much as I hated them, Liverpool were a machine.
An era of great times, but at the same time much unpredictability - I don't think we'd have won the title though. As much as I hated them, Liverpool were a machine.
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I think so. He rebuilt the club from the old hangovers he inherited into a really youthful, vibrant and exciting team. Obviously relegation happened to get from A to B but that year in the 2nd division saw big crowds and real fun football. His team stopped Liverpool winning the treble in 77 by defeating them in the cup final. His team encapsulated the spirit on the terraces that Utd is fun, football is simple, lets have a good time. Unfortunately it ended with him having too much of a good time but the 70s despite being trophy starved were fun. Lots of old Reds still remenisce about him, Coppell, Hill, Macari, Mcilroy, Buchan, Greenhoffs - the idea if you win nothing you'll be forgotten is nonsense.
In the 1990s he became a radio commentator on the local station for Utd games and came across a little bitter mind. I think he sees his allegience more of a Chelsea man.
In the 1990s he became a radio commentator on the local station for Utd games and came across a little bitter mind. I think he sees his allegience more of a Chelsea man.
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I wonder if his inability to keep his tadger firmly in his front pocket would have mattered more today or less.
I don't remember any Jacksons. Completely gone, I think I'm getting worse.
I think United's best chance of winning the league during the 70's & 80's came with Ron Atkinson's side of 1985/86. They had a great team back them with the likes of Robson, Hughes, Stapleton, McGrath, Alan Brazil, Jesper Olsen, Whiteside, & Gordan Strachan. Player for player I'd say they were far superior to a Liverpool side that was still struggling to come to terms with the loss of Souness the previous season, & also an ageing Kenny Dalglish who was in his first season as player-manager for the club. It seemed that after winning the first 10 league matches it was virtually nailed on that United would win it that year. The fact that we went on to win the double & United finished 4th still shocks me to this day. Tommy Doc's side were exciting to watch but they were also defensively flawed, & I'm not sure he had it in him to be able to produce a balanced team that could ever compete with Bob Paisley's over the course of a season.
Nice hearing some of the comments about my old mate Gordon Hill. We played together for Northwich Victoria back in the mid 80's & became really good friends. He loved Docherty & he loved playing for him. He had the smallest feet I've ever seen on a bloke. I think he took a size 5 boot. He was like a twinkle toes on the pitch & on the training ground. I remember the build up to Christmas one year when he kept telling me he had the best present that I could ever wish for. When the big day came, my wife, my Daughter, & myself were in his house with his wife & son, when he passed me this small parcel all neatly wrapped. I tore off the paper only to find it was a video of the 1977 FA Cup final in which he played, & in which United stopped us winning the treble. Oh how he laughed.........
Nice hearing some of the comments about my old mate Gordon Hill. We played together for Northwich Victoria back in the mid 80's & became really good friends. He loved Docherty & he loved playing for him. He had the smallest feet I've ever seen on a bloke. I think he took a size 5 boot. He was like a twinkle toes on the pitch & on the training ground. I remember the build up to Christmas one year when he kept telling me he had the best present that I could ever wish for. When the big day came, my wife, my Daughter, & myself were in his house with his wife & son, when he passed me this small parcel all neatly wrapped. I tore off the paper only to find it was a video of the 1977 FA Cup final in which he played, & in which United stopped us winning the treble. Oh how he laughed.........
I think United's best chance of winning the league during the 70's & 80's came with Ron Atkinson's side of 1985/86. They had a great team back them with the likes of Robson, Hughes, Stapleton, McGrath, Alan Brazil, Jesper Olsen, Whiteside, & Gordan Strachan. Player for player I'd say they were far superior to a Liverpool side that was still struggling to come to terms with the loss of Souness the previous season, & also an ageing Kenny Dalglish who was in his first season as player-manager for the club. It seemed that after winning the first 10 league matches it was virtually nailed on that United would win it that year. The fact that we went on to win the double & United finished 4th still shocks me to this day. Tommy Doc's side were exciting to watch but they were also defensively flawed, & I'm not sure he had it in him to be able to produce a balanced team that could ever compete with Bob Paisley's over the course of a season.
Nice hearing some of the comments about my old mate Gordon Hill. We played together for Northwich Victoria back in the mid 80's & became really good friends. He loved Docherty & he loved playing for him. He had the smallest feet I've ever seen on a bloke. I think he took a size 5 boot. He was like a twinkle toes on the pitch & on the training ground. I remember the build up to Christmas one year when he kept telling me he had the best present that I could ever wish for. When the big day came, my wife, my Daughter, & myself were in his house with his wife & son, when he passed me this small parcel all neatly wrapped. I tore off the paper only to find it was a video of the 1977 FA Cup final in which he played, & in which United stopped us winning the treble. Oh how he laughed.........
Nice story. Sounds like a terrific guy.
That 85/86 season was crazy. We lost the charity shield against Everton, then were unstopable until November. The way we capitulated after Robson's injury really upset the board. They wanted to do everything possible to win it the following season, but when Atkinson decided to go to Mexico to co-commentate on the world cup with ITV, it was deemed as a lack of commitment by the board. A poor start to the campaign sealed his fate. If he'd have stayed behind in the summer and looked for a couple of defenders and a replacement for Hughes, things may have turned out differently.
There’s a lot of talk about how Busby was impossible to replace and that his successors were doomed to fail. It’s worth remembering though that in between Summer 1968 (Morgan) and Spring 1972 (Buchan), United signed ONE first team player (Ure). One in just under four years. And people reckon the Glazers are tight...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Jackson_(footballer,_born_1946)
Yeah I’d forgotten about him as well. Certainly don’t remember 19 games.
2,4,6,8 the reds are great....when football was golden and the team would wave to the fans before kick off,brilliant!
Hard to credit that. I remember Ure and Denis Law getting sent off for fighting at Old Trafford when the former was still at Arsenal. I remember us signing Morgan from Burnley too and Busby dropping him after just a few games. Poor old Wilf was on a hiding to nothing.
There’s a lot of talk about how Busby was impossible to replace and that his successors were doomed to fail. It’s worth remembering though that in between Summer 1968 (Morgan) and Spring 1972 (Buchan), United signed ONE first team player (Ure). One in just under four years. And people reckon the Glazers are tight...
We played Leeds away at the end of the 72-73 season. We got the special from Victoria and there was a long walk from the station at Leeds to the ground. The United team coach passed us on the way and Morgan, Charlton, and Jim Holton were waving and clapping us on from their seats.
In those days, Leeds would line up in the centre circle and do a 360 degree wave to the entire ground which, as you can imagine, went down well with the Stretford End. They had those silly tags on their socks too which used to irritate me. Anyway, in the second half, all the photographers bar one or two camped behind Stepney's goal at the away end. After a chant of "get round the other end" didn't dislodge them, one of them stuck up two fingers at us and was immediately bombarded with missiles ranging from pieces of concrete to a fecking golf ball.
Interesting thoughts about Big Ron being seen as non-committed when he did World Cup commentary in the summer, I never heard that but it was a different world then. My memory of that strange season before was our winning the first load of games in some style (was it 10? I thought we just stopped at 9 and drew the 10th, but am seeing mostly Bestie on TV going on about a bet he lost, memory is far from perfect). We were unbelievably reliant on Robson in those days. When injured we were a different team, but were indefatigable with him on the pitch. Remember him coming back from one of his numerous injuries and coming on as a sub to a tremendous roar, and naturally the team turned their game around too. Amazing in his day if only for the effect he had on those around him.
That spring we sort of went to crap....selling Hughes was also something of a weird move, mid-season, and replacing him with that little fella whose name escapes me but who rarely scored. Sort of interesting when we complain about the Glazers that Edwards and co back in the day would also make short-sighted moves for money -- though nothing quite beats deciding Ure instead of Todd....Anyway, back on point, I think Ron's team was great on their day and he was a hugely likable character. Me, I'm still sore that we didn't give Dave Sexton more time....
That spring we sort of went to crap....selling Hughes was also something of a weird move, mid-season, and replacing him with that little fella whose name escapes me but who rarely scored. Sort of interesting when we complain about the Glazers that Edwards and co back in the day would also make short-sighted moves for money -- though nothing quite beats deciding Ure instead of Todd....Anyway, back on point, I think Ron's team was great on their day and he was a hugely likable character. Me, I'm still sore that we didn't give Dave Sexton more time....
Terry Gibson? He even signed Garth Crooks. Went up to Ipswich to watch us and, amazingly, Crooks scored for us.
I believe big Ron commented to Martin Edwards after the Watford game (Last game of 85/86), that he felt he'd taken United as far as he could. Edwards said, let's give it another season, but then Ron buggered off to Mexico for a month. In hindsight, Edwards has said it would have been better to have let him go after the Watford game. Although Ferguson himself was managing Scotland during the 86 world cup.
Ron was done. The team was ageing, and we were never really challenging for the league under him. Four top four finishes were an improvement, be we never really challenged the top spot.
Football under Sexton was dull compared to the doc, and the attendances were down. I was surprised when Sexton was sacked, because I think we went on a bit of run the second half of the 80/81 season.
Hello Reds. Good to know you're still around.I think United's best chance of winning the league during the 70's & 80's came with Ron Atkinson's side of 1985/86. They had a great team back them with the likes of Robson, Hughes, Stapleton, McGrath, Alan Brazil, Jesper Olsen, Whiteside, & Gordan Strachan. Player for player I'd say they were far superior to a Liverpool side that was still struggling to come to terms with the loss of Souness the previous season, & also an ageing Kenny Dalglish who was in his first season as player-manager for the club. It seemed that after winning the first 10 league matches it was virtually nailed on that United would win it that year. The fact that we went on to win the double & United finished 4th still shocks me to this day. Tommy Doc's side were exciting to watch but they were also defensively flawed, & I'm not sure he had it in him to be able to produce a balanced team that could ever compete with Bob Paisley's over the course of a season.
Nice hearing some of the comments about my old mate Gordon Hill. We played together for Northwich Victoria back in the mid 80's & became really good friends. He loved Docherty & he loved playing for him. He had the smallest feet I've ever seen on a bloke. I think he took a size 5 boot. He was like a twinkle toes on the pitch & on the training ground. I remember the build up to Christmas one year when he kept telling me he had the best present that I could ever wish for. When the big day came, my wife, my Daughter, & myself were in his house with his wife & son, when he passed me this small parcel all neatly wrapped. I tore off the paper only to find it was a video of the 1977 FA Cup final in which he played, & in which United stopped us winning the treble. Oh how he laughed.........
Martin Buchan came down to FC a few weeks back to open our new bar. Lovely bloke.
Few people thanking him for the 77 cup final
Few people thanking him for the 77 cup final
I think this is spot on. Building a team around the wonderful but hopelessly injury prone Robson was never going to win us the league, and the underrated Moses (who’d become a key player without anyone really noticing) was even more of a crock. The sale of Hughes certainly didn’t help, and replacing him with the decent but totally incompatible Davenport was a bizarre decision.
Towards the end, Ron started bringing in a bizarre succession of attackers in the hope that one would come good: Crooks, Barnes, Gibson. It was clear that he’d got no semblance of a plan and things fell apart very quickly.
We only missed out on the league by two points in 79/80, Wilkins’ first season. In 80/81 Wilkins was injured a lot (now where have we heard that before
), results were poor and we finished eighth. Winning the last seven league matches wasn’t enough to save him; the dull football and the disastrous signing of Alexis Sanchez (aka Garry Birtles) didn’t help