I'd be happy with 3rd, but let's go for broke. Liverpool doesn't look as deep as last season and City is still trying to find their form. We have a shot at the title.
Would you be happy with finishing 3rd this season but with more points than last season?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
If I’d been asked this at the start of November I’d bite your hand off. The run of great results since then naturally change the outlook. More points and a second place finish would be a good step forward but hopefully we go one further.
To be honest, it’ll be nice to not have to keep working out how many points we need to make top 4, although, even that could be tight looking at the table at present.
Who would take fourth with a better points total if it put Liverpool in fifth?
To be honest, it’ll be nice to not have to keep working out how many points we need to make top 4, although, even that could be tight looking at the table at present.
Who would take fourth with a better points total if it put Liverpool in fifth?
I'd have to say yes. I thought it would be difficult for us to finish the same 3rd again with Chelsea's spending. Obviously I overestimated our rivals this season and theyve had more issues than I expected, although theres still time for them to have a great run. But if we finished with more points than last season it would mean we've improved regardless of whether the other teams got worse. And I said I'd be happy with that in the summer given our transfer window, I'm not going to change it just because Ole is doing well at this point. Obviously I'd take 2nd or the title and be far happier, but 3rd is still my expectation
I am sure this has already been pointed out but it’s all a matter of context. If we continue to win games, play well and make a bit of a challenge to the league leaders then our final league position is not really that relevant. More points has to be the measure.
Third place but only a handful of points away from the champions would be marked progress. I think City are about to really put the foot to the floor, too, so if we can keep up with them then I’ll be impressed.
Third place but only a handful of points away from the champions would be marked progress. I think City are about to really put the foot to the floor, too, so if we can keep up with them then I’ll be impressed.
Of course. Keeping ahead of Chelsea who spent a lot on new additions and were expected to improve a lot this year while getting closer to Liverpoo and City would be good.
I know some expect to constantly achieve better positions and immediately start winning trophies or there is no progress made but the thing is we don't exist in a bubble. While we're trying to improve, everyone else is doing the same.
I know some expect to constantly achieve better positions and immediately start winning trophies or there is no progress made but the thing is we don't exist in a bubble. While we're trying to improve, everyone else is doing the same.
I think as long as we're still mathematically in for the title with 2 games to go and ultimately finish 3rd then it will have been a very good season. Saying that I don't think we will be winning a trophy as I think Liverpool will beat us the weekend. They won't keep fecking up in front of goal. That leaves the Europa which has some tough sides left in it.
3rd, 80 points + and a trophy would be progress for this group and a good season. We had to make up a 33 point gap on the scousers and 15 on city, so getting closer is the goal. Hopefully that would convince Ed and the Glazers to further back Ole in the market. The squad still has holes especially at CB, RW and striker. Add to the fact Pogba is gone this summer and we may have to invest in midfield as well.
Points can't really be used as a measure either, last season's point total was the worst since Moyes, second worst in decades. We got the position so it was a relative success. We definitely need to aim a lot higher than improving on such a bad points haul.
Even distance away from the leader, last season was the worst since i don't even know when because it's too far back to look. Prior season only one point better.
Whoever wins is going to have quite a low total so you'd expect a team in the mix which is the aim this season to be within 8 or 9pts max. That's the minimum for progress to me, if we finish 4th but we're within that 9pt window it doesn't matter too much.
Happy with topp-3 and more points than last years. Points usually say something about the overall performance, but exceptions can’t be excluded.
Going in to the season my expectations were just to close the gap between Liverpool and City. I think it’s fare to say neither of those teams have been playing at their best but come the end of season if we are closer to them and 3rd that to me is an improvement. If we somehow manage to sustain a title challenge then that’s exceeding my expectations.
Have to be a realist in these situations. We all want to win the league, we all went in to the season wanting to win the league but you’ve got to have realistic expectations of where we as a team were and what it could achieve.
Have to be a realist in these situations. We all want to win the league, we all went in to the season wanting to win the league but you’ve got to have realistic expectations of where we as a team were and what it could achieve.
Points total is irrelevant. It's all about how well we respond to what our rivals do. If we end up 3rd after having remained in the picture for most of the season (not letting anyone run away) - then yes. That would be improvement.
If we end up 3rd with more points than last season - but hopelessly adrift, then no.
The gap has to be closed - that's the main indicator.
If we end up 3rd with more points than last season - but hopelessly adrift, then no.
The gap has to be closed - that's the main indicator.
Thinking like this just sets yourself up for disappointment.
We were nowhere last season, its very unlikely that we will have closed that gap completely in one season. So far we've done really well but I wouldn't be surprised or if city and Liverpool finish above us as long as we are significantly closer than last season.
Right now? No. If we slip to 8th by March, yeah.
Yeah. And I would say that realistically City and Liverpool are above us, all things considered (taking everything into account at this stage of the season).
But: based on how things have played out so far, it isn't wildly unrealistic to...hope.
That works two ways, I'd say: it means that it's still mainly a hope (we aren't favourites to win the league) - but it also means that we aren't a million miles away.
So - again - if we end up hopelessly adrift (barring a scenario with unprecedented, immense injuries), that wouldn't be good enough (even if we end up 3rd).
Would be extremely happy with third. Would have jumped at that at the start of the season if that was offered. It would be great to finish second if we could continue to pick up some wins and some points at home.....If we finished third this season it would be a fantastic achievement, City, Liverpool and Spurs would be favourites for the top three in my opinion and to top one of them would be a solid finish.
I would be happy with fourth though as I think qualifying for the Champions League should be a minimum standard for the club, not just for the additional revenue and to satisfy FFP. Qualifying for the competition every two years since SAF retired has been one of the biggest disappointments in the post SAF era.
I would be happy with fourth though as I think qualifying for the Champions League should be a minimum standard for the club, not just for the additional revenue and to satisfy FFP. Qualifying for the competition every two years since SAF retired has been one of the biggest disappointments in the post SAF era.
People are forgetting that we came second under jose and won the Europa league and league cup. That is actually a good United standard. With this squad, we should be contending. We can all agree that this is easily the best United team we have had in awhile.
Agreed.
Depends if we can still win the games we're generally expected to win and keep the pressure up, like Fulham/Sheff Utd/Arsenal etc
Depends entirely on the circumstances.
If we finish third but with only 60-something points, and still a fair gap to the top two, then no. If that happens it shows we haven't improved at all, and the only reason we're closer to City and Liverpool is because they have declined.
We had an appalling start to this season and are now averaging 2.06 points per game, so given that's after a horrendous start we should be finishing this season on at least 77 points. And if we're lower than that it means we've bottled it. Also if we end in the high seventies but third it'll be likely to be within 5-6 points of City and Liverpool. That would be acceptable.
If we finish third but with only 60-something points, and still a fair gap to the top two, then no. If that happens it shows we haven't improved at all, and the only reason we're closer to City and Liverpool is because they have declined.
We had an appalling start to this season and are now averaging 2.06 points per game, so given that's after a horrendous start we should be finishing this season on at least 77 points. And if we're lower than that it means we've bottled it. Also if we end in the high seventies but third it'll be likely to be within 5-6 points of City and Liverpool. That would be acceptable.
Well, Jose didn't contend. We were miles behind City that season.
In any case, my point is that we have not earned the right to consider ourselves a team that has certain standards that we can expect to be met every season, or the season's a failure. Not after seven years. If we want those standards (and I would imagine there are few who don't), then they have to be re-established. When we've been in the title fight for a few years running, then we can start talking about standards. The standards we have right now are ones we don't want to have. Far too many people still think like it's still some sort of suspension of normality that we're not where we were under SAF, and as if normal service can be expected to be resumed any second now.
Embrace the pain of gradual growth. It's neccessary.
I agree completely. I think that those standards are long gone now and we are rebuilding towards getting back to that level. It's been more positive rebuilding with a couple of bumps the last two seasons. Jose finishing second was a great achievement and I would put a lot of that down to having a World Class manager that had the squad full of confidence. 2017/2018 was a reminder of the calibre of the club but then we finished sixth the following year. No consistency.Well, Jose didn't contend. We were miles behind City that season.
In any case, my point is that we have not earned the right to consider ourselves a team that has certain standards that we can expect to be met every season, or the season's a failure. Not after seven years. If we want those standards (and I would imagine there are few who don't), then they have to be re-established. When we've been in the title fight for a few years running, then we can start talking about standards. The standards we have right now are ones we don't want to have. Far too many people still think like it's still some sort of suspension of normality that we're not where we were under SAF, and as if normal service can be expected to be resumed any second now.
Embrace the pain of gradual growth. It's neccessary.
I think we are going in the right direction and to finish top four consistently should be the aim to build our new foundation. Finishing 3rd and then 7th the following year is too poor for any top club.
I do think we are past the suspension of normality of the SAF years of finishing 1st or 2nd every season but if we can keep building and get better each season we will be back competing at the top again.
You'd only be satisfied if we won the league? feckin hell!
Well, if we get 10-15 more points this season than we did last season then that indicates that we’re on the right track. And based on our current form I think that’s a perfectly reasonable target (injuries permitting).
I’d agree that points off the top spot is the best metric overall.
No... we still have 20 games to go and can finish anywhere between 1 to 8th.
But now we are first I want us to be in it to the very last day. I think this might genuinely be the first time in the premier league where on the last day we have 3, maybe more teams, that have a chance of winning the league. Imagine how exciting that’s going to be for those involved.
But now we are first I want us to be in it to the very last day. I think this might genuinely be the first time in the premier league where on the last day we have 3, maybe more teams, that have a chance of winning the league. Imagine how exciting that’s going to be for those involved.
Winning is a habit. Go for top or leave the boots at home.
Seriously, this whole “would you settle for 3rd” thing smacks of defeatism.
Seriously, this whole “would you settle for 3rd” thing smacks of defeatism.
Wouldn't be "happy". I'd be satisfied. League expectations have already been met. Will like a cup though.
That would be a disastrous window regardless of who we signed in return. Would massively set us back. Losing Pogba would be bad enough.
Yes and no.
I think probably in overall squad strength we are probably about 3rd, maybe even 4th, but with City and Liverpool having a hit and miss season and Bruno Fernandes clearly being the best player in the league, not finishing higher maybe a missed opportunity.
I think probably in overall squad strength we are probably about 3rd, maybe even 4th, but with City and Liverpool having a hit and miss season and Bruno Fernandes clearly being the best player in the league, not finishing higher maybe a missed opportunity.
I’d be disappointed with less than 2nd at this point, although I can obviously see it potentially happening
How are still people banging on about point tally? It doesnt mean anything whatsover, and especially during a Covid season...
Would you be more happy getting 5th with 75 points than 3rd with 65?
3rd would only be good enough if the gap to the top two were drastically improved, like 6-10 points at tops.
Would you be more happy getting 5th with 75 points than 3rd with 65?
3rd would only be good enough if the gap to the top two were drastically improved, like 6-10 points at tops.
I'll be surprised if more than two teams finish above 80 points. We shouldn't be too far away this year, definitely in with a shout of the title if we can reach 80. Liverpool need 46 out of 60 points to reach 80 (they currently have 34 out of 54 points) which I think is unlikely given their form.
85 points would seem to me to be a good benchmark to aim for, for a team that seeks to win the league. Extremely unlikely anyone would top that.
For us to reach that, we need 2.4 points per game for the rest of the season - considerably more than we've managed so far (2.1). It means results for the rest of the season that would amount to a 90-point pace for a whole season. We could drop a maximum of 12 points for the remainder of the season.
City would need the same avg pts (and have a similar average to us so far), but could afford to drop 13 points.
Liverpool would need to up their avg pts from 1.9 so far to 2.55 for the rest of the season - the equivalent of a 97-point season. They can only drop 9 more points. In other words, they basically have to be about as good for the rest of this season as they were last season as a whole.
Which I suppose means that no one is really likely to reach 85 points. My bet would be on City, if anyone.
I'd be happy we challenge and finish a close second. Anything other than that and it's another shit season for me.
You do realise that if we achieve that, it's more because of City and Liverpool being less good than expected than because of us being much better than expected? Seems a trifle arbitrary as a benchmark for satisfaction. If anything other than a title challenge this season is a shit season for you, then I would argue your expectations aren't reasonable.
Happy finishing third?... certainly not, only happy when we win competitions!
Would I consider it progress, yes, especially if we pick up some silverware elsewhere, FA Cup or Europa Cup... but happy no;
Maticmaker he say, "Happiness only for Winners"
Would I consider it progress, yes, especially if we pick up some silverware elsewhere, FA Cup or Europa Cup... but happy no;
Maticmaker he say, "Happiness only for Winners"
Well, not happy obviously but being pragmatic it would signal continued progress. A good transfer season would then see us challenging the next season.
Everything is relative.
Check his post history. Unfortunately he doesn't like supporting the team while we have the manager we have.
Were you thinking that after Spurs at home? Or when we had a chaotic transfer window with none of Ole's first choice targets coming in?
Why aren't my expectations reasonable? What should we do, spend another 300M and expect to challenge 2 seasons later and still say "City and Liverpool are just too good atm?". Or use the excuse "it's a freak season?" What the feck?
If City and Liverpool are less good than expected then our title chance increases, doesn't it? How it's not reasonable to think a team that's currently 1st if it wins its game in hand can challenge for the title?
Happy? No. Content? Absolutely. If we finish 3rd it will only be the fourth time in eight seasons we finish as one of the top teams in the league, two of those in Ole’s two first full seasons in charge. Progress!
Our league position at end of season since SAF:
13/14 - 7th Ryan Giggs (Thanks David)
14/15 - 4th LVG
15/16 - 5th LVG
16/17 - 6th Mourinho
17/18 - 2nd Mourinho
18/19 - 6th Solskjær (thanks a bunch Mou)
19/20 - 3rd Solskjær
20/21 - ?
Good Manchester United standard, ey @Amadaeus? Total joke, like you didn’t even pay attention while Mourinho was here.
Our league position at end of season since SAF:
13/14 - 7th Ryan Giggs (Thanks David)
14/15 - 4th LVG
15/16 - 5th LVG
16/17 - 6th Mourinho
17/18 - 2nd Mourinho
18/19 - 6th Solskjær (thanks a bunch Mou)
19/20 - 3rd Solskjær
20/21 - ?
Good Manchester United standard, ey @Amadaeus? Total joke, like you didn’t even pay attention while Mourinho was here.