Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


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Micky Targaryen

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No matter how bad it gets the Ole in crowd will set the bar as low as it needs to be for Ole to reach it. If he gets finishing 10th they will say no one could have done better and that it's the standard we should be aiming for. Anything to paint their man as a success.
Plenty of that on here.

1) He loves United, back off.
2) If we sack Ole now, who else is available now?
3) *Goes on to quote other better candidates like Poch and Allegri* , "Oh, but Poch has no trophies and Allegri is a dinosaur".
4) Ole is on the right track because he got rid of the deadwood. (Of which he did not replace any :houllier:)
5) No other manager could've done better with this squad.
6) We were patient with Fergie, therefore we should be patient with Ole too. (By far the most ignorant statement ever)
7) Keep on blabbering on about our miracle run last season.
8) It's the Woodward and the board's fault. (Even though we are playing tactically inept football)
9) Ole wasn't backed enough in the summer. (Did we really needed to sign more players to beat Palace and West Ham??? :houllier:)
10)....

Did I miss anything else?
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
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I wouldn't say Ole is doing an amazing job so far, but let's say we did sack him.

Who the hell is available that'll be guaranteed to do better?

I'd like the Ajax manager Ten Haag but he's ruled himself out of the Bayern job and wants to stay until the summer.

Allegri is not guaranteed to do any better. Especially with the squad we have.

Unfortunately we fans just need to be patient and see what happens with a few fresh faces.
 

Class of 63

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Plenty of that on here.

1) He loves United, back off.
2) If we sack Ole now, who else is available now?
3) *Goes on to quote other better candidates like Poch and Allegri* , "Oh, but Poch has no trophies and Allegri is a dinosaur".
4) Ole is on the right track because he got rid of the deadwood. (Of which he did not replace any :houllier:)
5) No other manager could've done better with this squad.
6) We were patient with Fergie, therefore we should be patient with Ole too. (By far the most ignorant statement ever)
7) Keep on blabbering on about our miracle run last season.
8) It's the Woodward and the board's fault. (Even though we are playing tactically inept football)
9) Ole wasn't backed enough in the summer. (Did we really needed to sign more players to beat Palace and West Ham??? :houllier:)
10)....

Did I miss anything else?
Challenge for yourself and the like-minded see if you can get that up to 20 or even 30 before the match on Thursday just for fun like, wouldn't want yous to take it too seriously.
 

Handré1990

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Not enough progress in style or consistency, so I’d get rid of him now. Bring in someone else, if that someone hasn’t shown enough until April, I’d go hunting again. All this based only on my own two eyes. I wouldn’t say a bad word about Ole, other than he didn’t deliver what we should expect, but clearly he hasn’t manage to bring us forward. If he really isn’t taking charge of the day to day coaching, he has chosen the wrong coaches, which is also his responsibility.
 

simonhch

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This is another opinion here that is taken as a given...people do realize that Ole inherited Mourinho’s squad right? All the changes after were made under his approval. I agree the squad is weaker than Mourinho’s but that is Ole fault, he made it weaker by selling players.
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
 
Last edited:

Alfie092

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Unfortunately, as much as I would have liked it to work out with Ole, he sadly has to go in my opinion. Whether it's him handing in his resignation or the board sacking him.

Saying that, I do not trust the current board to get the right manager in. There is no one out there who I can confidently say would dramatically improve us in terms of playing style and results on a consistent basis in the long-term.

Maybe going for a manager like Julian Nagelsmann? A younger manager than Ole and has his own philosophy playing a better style of football. I still don't know what Ole's philosophy is and he has almost been here for a year now which you can easily forget!

Yes, the board is highly to blame, even more so than Ole for this mess for not investing in the playing squad enough but we still have good enough players to be in a significant better position than we are now. We definitely have better players than the teams we dropped points against like Southampton, Palace, West Ham, Newcastle, Bournemouth. No way should we have dropped points against them let alone lose to some of those mentioned with that horrendous style of football! And that is where Ole and the coaching staff is to blame. We have only won 3 games all seasons out of a possible 11, which is a win percentage of just 27%! The games we won, only Norwich you can say we were convincing against, even then we still gave them plenty of opportunities to score. Chelsea, even though we won 4-0, we all know we was far from great. Leicester, we edged it via a penalty.

I have no idea what is being done in training but so far it is clearly not working as we are not seeing the improvements on the pitch. During games Ole also seems to be too reactive and not proactive enough in regards to making tactical decisions and leaves many decisions far too late during the game. Almost a year into the job you would expect Ole to have a clearly philosophy, a style of play and be learning from his in-game tactical mistakes but he is continuing to make the same old mistakes game after game.

Ole has talked a lot about playing the youth, yet he barely plays them in the league. Brandon Williams is clearly the better player in my eyes compared to Ashley Young, yet Young is still starting in the more important games, why? I know playing 1 or 2 youth players on a regular basis won't change our fortunes dramatically but Ole isn't giving us anything to be optimistic about and give us reasons to be patient which this so called "long-term" project.
 

red4ever 79

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Oh well if he's not acceptable :lol:
Not sure why you continue to ask people for their opinion and then try to mock them when they give it. Your condescending tone on here is extremely patronizing. Here are some basic stats why Ole is not good enough to manage our football club.

We are 10th
We have won 3 games out of 11
We have thus far scored only 13 goals. Less than Villa, Burnley, Wolves, West Ham
Ole knows only how to play counter attacking football. The idea is to kick it into space and get Rashford or James to run onto it. This is why we have been successful against teams who have tried to attack us. This is why we are crap against the teams that sit back
Ole continues to select Lingard, Perriera, Young despite those players contributing absolutely nothing.
Ole continues to bang on about 'the process' the 'youth' yet he doesnt play the youth enough
Ole is continuing to look like the guy from LOTR more and more each interview.

All sackable offences
 

lex talionis

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What the hell are you talking about? We’re in november theres a freaking lot left to fight for.
Of course there is, but before we were to sack Ole don't you think we would a manager secured to replace him? I would. But you look around right now and there is no one who has experience in the EPL, except for Mourinho and Wenger, who is qualified to handle the job of managing United and who is available right now to do the job.

The merits of bringing back Mourinho right now probably does deserves its own thread, but I will say briefly that we sacked with cause and there's nothing known in the public domain that Mourinho 2.0 would be any better Mourinho 1.0. Our play was disgusting and getting worse every month. And the less said about his transfer history, the better.

Wenger would be interesting, possibly genius. If he's good enough to be on Bayern's short list he's certainly good enough to succeed Ole. True, but let's not forget that Wenger didn't exactly shower himself in glory over his last 15 years with Arsenal, did he?

Neither Mourinho nor Wenger would agree to being a caretaker manager for United and I seriously doubt many United supporters would want to see either signed to a long-term deal.

The other name out there is Allegri, a proven winner in Italy but untested in England, but that rumor has been rubbished repeatedly. Allegri's trophy haul is impressive and I'd take him in a heartbeat, but if you're Allegri do you really take the United job over Bayern or (soon to be) Arsenal? I seriously doubt it.
 

Random Task

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Of course there is, but before we were to sack Ole don't you think we would a manager secured to replace him? I would. But you look around right now and there is no one who has experience in the EPL, except for Mourinho and Wenger, who is qualified to handle the job of managing United and who is available right now to do the job.

The merits of bringing back Mourinho right now probably does deserves its own thread, but I will say briefly that we sacked with cause and there's nothing known in the public domain that Mourinho 2.0 would be any better Mourinho 1.0. Our play was disgusting and getting worse every month. And the less said about his transfer history, the better.

Wenger would be interesting, possibly genius. If he's good enough to be on Bayern's short list he's certainly good enough to succeed Ole. True, but let's not forget that Wenger didn't exactly shower himself in glory over his last 15 years with Arsenal, did he?

Neither Mourinho nor Wenger would agree to being a caretaker manager for United and I seriously doubt many United supporters would want to see either signed to a long-term deal.

The other name out there is Allegri, a proven winner in Italy but untested in England, but that rumor has been rubbished repeatedly. Allegri's trophy haul is impressive and I'd take him in a heartbeat, but if you're Allegri do you really take the United job over Bayern or (soon to be) Arsenal? I seriously doubt it.
God no.

I would rather the club dissolved that to rehire that man.
 

SAFMUTD

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Of course there is, but before we were to sack Ole don't you think we would a manager secured to replace him? I would. But you look around right now and there is no one who has experience in the EPL, except for Mourinho and Wenger, who is qualified to handle the job of managing United and who is available right now to do the job.

The merits of bringing back Mourinho right now probably does deserves its own thread, but I will say briefly that we sacked with cause and there's nothing known in the public domain that Mourinho 2.0 would be any better Mourinho 1.0. Our play was disgusting and getting worse every month. And the less said about his transfer history, the better.

Wenger would be interesting, possibly genius. If he's good enough to be on Bayern's short list he's certainly good enough to succeed Ole. True, but let's not forget that Wenger didn't exactly shower himself in glory over his last 15 years with Arsenal, did he?

Neither Mourinho nor Wenger would agree to being a caretaker manager for United and I seriously doubt many United supporters would want to see either signed to a long-term deal.

The other name out there is Allegri, a proven winner in Italy but untested in England, but that rumor has been rubbished repeatedly. Allegri's trophy haul is impressive and I'd take him in a heartbeat, but if you're Allegri do you really take the United job over Bayern or (soon to be) Arsenal? I seriously doubt it.
There are more options than rehiring Mourinho, or hiring Wenger or Allegri.

I agree the next manager we sign should be someone with progressive football that can take us back to the top with attractive football not necessarily proven in the EPL.

It’s not easy since the ideal candidates are currently employed, but that doesn’t mean we should stick with Ole. We could get a takecare manager while we wait for the season to end and get the new manager. Maybe the takecare manager can implement something, with Ole we just know nothing going to change.
 

DamoK

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But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
Excellent post
 

Foxbatt

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Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
14,297
Without the short term there is no long term. Anyone around, even Big Sam is better that this shit that is going on now. We need to sack him and hire a temp manager just like we initially did with Ole and then in the summer when others are available we get a good manager.
Any one can sell the deadwood. Actually by selling the "deadwood" he has surely fecked up too. You do not sell unless you replace them with better players.
The fact that players he sold or sent away are doing brilliantly shows the fact he is incompetent.

He needs to go and go now.
 

Water Melon

Guest
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
What a post. Hats off.
 

MoskvaRed

Full Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
5,230
Location
Not Moskva
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
Sadly I agree with all of that. There are no grounds to expect this club to achieve anything like its potential under the current owners and CEO. But, while waiting for new owners to arrive, we might as well hire a good manager who can get us finishing in 3rd to 6th and winning the odd cup rather than having a random ex-player with no qualifications. Let’s face it, we could just as well have appointed Clayton Blackmore or David May and we would not be doing any worse.
 

Bobcat

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
6,385
Location
Behind the curtains, leering at the neighbors
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
Refreshing to see someone actually put some thought into their posts
 

hobbers

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
28,089
I wouldn't say Ole is doing an amazing job so far, but let's say we did sack him.

Who the hell is available that'll be guaranteed to do better?

I'd like the Ajax manager Ten Haag but he's ruled himself out of the Bayern job and wants to stay until the summer.

Allegri is not guaranteed to do any better. Especially with the squad we have.

Unfortunately we fans just need to be patient and see what happens with a few fresh faces.
Who is available who is guaranteed to do worse? No one.

Therefore what do we have to lose? Every successful top club in this day and age twist, twist and twist again until they find a manager who can win for them. The reason we are no longer a successful club is precisely because we don't do that.
 

ash_86

Full Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
6,339
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
Great fecking post!!
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
39,954
Who is available who is guaranteed to do worse? No one.

Therefore what do we have to lose? Every successful top club in this day and age twist, twist and twist again until they find a manager who can win for them. The reason we are no longer a successful club is precisely because we don't do that.
Well that’s not true. We could end up doing worse if the manager loses the players like mourinho.
 

Greck

Full Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2016
Messages
7,099
Well that’s not true. We could end up doing worse if the manager loses the players like mourinho.
This hurts your point more than it helps it. You know even after Jose lost the players he still had them playing better than this which is just awful.
 

7even

Resident moaner, hypocrite and moron
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
4,218
Location
Lifetime vacation
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
Great post in general but your overall conclusion regarding short term solutions isn’t the only answer how to improve short and long term results and improve our management structure.

Every result oriented organization needs competence in executive positions. We all know that the main problem is Woodward but that doesn’t take away that a better and more competent manager would drastically improve our short term results. Better results means it’s easier to recruit quality players. A better squad makes it’s easier to further improve long term results. With Ole the spiral is the opposite. Bad results makes it way more difficult to recruit better players. Bad results also creates more internal problems and less incomes. Why should we want that?

Everything regarding making progress both short and long term is easier with a competent manager who make the best out of his players. Just think about it. Keeping incompetence just because everything else is shit makes no sense. In that case we can just accept relegation and whatever who comes next.
 

SAFMUTD

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11,787
Well that’s not true. We could end up doing worse if the manager loses the players like mourinho.
How long will it be before the important players turn their back on Ole? how long before the few ones with quality start thinking about jumping the ship?

Of course the mediocre players wont, they love Ole, he keep playing them no matter what and by lowering the standards so much the players think theyre not failing but under a process.

I wouldnt want to be in this United side if I had a chance to go to a team that can actually challenge for titles and I'm a United fan. As much as you love the club it gets to a point where the player will start wondering about his future, and no one can blame him for that.
 

Kemizee

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1. Cant disagree with that, but this is the main (and soon only) reason i still back Ole to some degree is because of transfers. Despite crap on a stick football and horrific results, his three buys have been excellent, i would argue AWB and James have been our best performers this year and he was also willing to get rid of some deadwood and bad apples, despite it obviously leaving us very thin in certain areas. In any case, that is more than can be said about Moyes, LvG and Jose who ultimately left the squad in a worse state than they found it.
2. I wrote this in the other tread and since im lazy im just going to copy it instead of typing it out again. On my last flight to Manchester i talked with a guy who claimed to be best mates with Daniel Berg Hæstad (was captain under Ole in Molde). He told me Ole trusted his coaches to conduct the training sessions and half the time he was not even there. He also mostly listened to his tactical coaches regarding team selections and in-game tactics. Now this was just some guy, but it seems like a strange thing to lie about and imo if this was how he did things at Molde i dont see why it is any different here. Regarding our coaches though, i seem to remember us getting significantly worse when Jose replaced Rui Faria with Carrick/McKenna and i also seem to remember Phelan was a big step down from Queiroz. Take that as you want. Not trying to exonerate Ole here as he is the man in charge after all and it was he who picked the coaches, but if this guy i met is to be believed, his involvement in the actual coaching part is pretty limited. And i might be wrong about this one, but did not Fergie as well mostly leave the coaching to his coaches while he was sat in the office?
3. This is fair criticism, but none of us know exactly what has happened here. It might have been that Ole have vastly overrated the players he had and went into the season thinking that midfield would be good enough, but we both know how unreliable transfer news are and most of them are downright click bait fabrications. Maybe Woody was being a tight arse and demanded we slashed the wage bill before we got any new ones in? Woody is also not exactly known for his excellent transfer negotiating skills so maybe we had more deals on the table that fell through because he fecked around? In any case, we have done plenty of bad business over the years so i would much prefer we wait until the right targets are available instead of taking more punts and hope for the best.

Regarding that bolded part. It makes perfect sense and i can see where you are coming from. Of course every big job comes with some level of pressure. When Ole took over after Jose in December there was very little he could do except change the mood and do some small tactical changes, the same will be true for whoever if they take over for Ole now. I am also pretty certain that if we get a new manager now, nothing will happen in January since 2 months is not enough time to get to know all the players and see where they fit.

I am not enjoying this more than you do. Seeing that shite we served up vs B'mouth really ruined my weekend. But even if we end up 10th it wont destroy us as a club. I am much more concerned if we end up with a reputation of being a managers graveyard, where you would be afforded very little time to make your impact. Since Fergie left we have ended up 7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd and 6th. Not exactly amazing that, and Ole last season overall ended up 3rd, and that very much includes our implosion at the end of the year. Since 2013 we have also seen our squad deteriorate badly and the rise of City and Liverpool as probably the best clubs in the world right now, which means top 4 is harder then it has been in some time. Also, keep in mind that this is largely the same group of players that have failed under 3(4) different managers so regardless of who is managing us, there is a lot of work to be done before we can even begin discussing challenging for the league. In my opinion, the reason behind the shite football is not a coaching issue, but more of a player quality issue and i think no amount of coaching is going to turn Fred, Lindgaard and Pereira into good footballers, or turn Mata, Matic and Young any younger

10th is clearly not good enough, but considering how tight the league is this year two wins in a row and suddenly we are back up to EL qualifications. Spurs for example are even worse than us and that squad on paper shits all over ours. Getting a new manager now could maybe fix all our plights (i seriously doubt that) but it could also backfire spectacularly. Say if we got Allegri in now, he fails to turn the ship around and we end up 6th-7th. Do we sack him then? And even if we dont sack him, getting here now and having a mediocre season would mean the pressure to deliver next year would be immense. Anything less than top 4 and soon calls for his head will be heard as well. Meanwhile, if we continue our season in this fashion and Ole is sacked, then the next manager will start the 2020/21 season with a clean slate and the knowledge that at least some patience will be shown to him both from the fans and from the club.

So me not wanting Ole sacked now is not because some romantic notion or because i put him above the club. It is from a very pragmatic standpoint because i firmly believe its a very risky move and it does a huge disservice to whoever comes next. Also, maybe Ole can use his personal connections to lure Haaland here and we go on an amazing winning streak after Christmas and somehow end up 3rd :wenger:
Too early to tell and anyone would have bought those same players. A lot of the cafe was clamouring for them too. He didn't unearth any. Even James was recommend by Giggsy.

Those guys you call deadwood are better than some of the players on our roster and would have us in a better position than we currently are.

We are in a worse state squad wise. The thinning of the squad should never have been done without the guarantee of replacements.

Bruno Fernandes was available, so was Hakim Ziyech who are both burgeoning talents same way AWB and James are but it was reported we didn't want Bruno cos of the regularity of misplaced passes from him(whatever that means) and if by 'right targets' you mean undisputed top class players, you might as well give it up as none of them worth their weight would wanna play under OGS. There are many players who would be an upgrade on this current lot. Why not build with them in the interim till we at least secure CL Football and push for the big guns?

We are already fecked as things stand. We are unlikely not gonna play in the Champs League again next season and that to you is not self-destruction considering we could salvage the season if we act swiftly. Fair enogh, we don't need to be a manager's graveyard but how long do you think should be afforded OGS to make an IMPACT as a manager? I am not talking about winning titles but at least seeing a recognisable pattern of tactical approach from him?

Dunno what the hell that means?

No one in their right senses expected a league challenge from OGD but can you with all honesty say that our players are worse than the players of the teams who have beaten or drawn against us this season. We all know those teams. I will spare you the ordeal of naming them one after the other and if our players are worse. Are you conversely saying their managers are better? If they are, then we are in deep shit becuase the managers of those teams who have gotten the better of us this season should never be better in essence than the manager of Man United.

If good coaching can turn Milner, Henderson and Wignaldum to Champions League Winners, then at least it can make Fres, Lingard and Perreira top 4 to top 6 material in the league.

I doubt even you believe what you wrote in that last paragraph yourself. It's comedy gold so I won't even bother on that.
 

Kemizee

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I think our squad is not as good as Leicester, but not far off it. A decent coach would make a huge difference. I don’t know why some think we need to spend 500m + to reach the top step again, or at least compete. What are our scouts doing? If other teams can build a decent squad for little money, surely we can with the money we have available?

Was this also your opinion at the beginning of the season (end of transfer window) or are you saying this now Rogers has shown everyone that we have an inpet, incompetent manager in charge?

We are going nowhere/backwards with Ole, so there is no point getting players in without getting a decent coaching team in place.
 

Kemizee

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Why would the board not back him? They were the ones not able to buy in all the players we so obviously needed.

I though we'd be in a fight to finish 6th when we let Lukaku, Sanchez and Smalling go after the window had closed. I'm pretty sure the board will have been aware of that possibility, especially if we were hit with a series of important injuries.

Ole hasn't been great. But in all honesty, he hasn't made any more mistakes than Moyes, LVG or Mourinho. We need better players, then lets see if we still need yet another new manager.
To achieve what targets? 4th place or to beat Rochdale, West Ham, Astana, Palace, S'oton, Bournemoth?
 

Kemizee

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Here are my feelings, which are only slightly coloured by the fact that Ole is one of my favourite footballers of all time, and it'd slightly entirely crush me if he got fired:

I don't think we should sack him. Not because I think he's doing an amazing job or anything, but because any realistic alternative probably wouldn't help much, and would bring a bunch of additional drawbacks.

The problems at the club run so much deeper than Ole, and things won't REALLY start to improve until the deeper problems (namely the Glazers and Woodward) are fixed. Now, switching Ole for an absolute top level manager might improve things enough to make it worthwhile, but I don't think there's too many of those looking to come to United, especially not in November, and not on a long contract -- which is what is needed. United need stability and to finally stop seeking short term gains at the expense of long term planning and building, and just getting someone like Allegri in for two years won't solve anything. It'll just kick the can down the road.

The first thing that needs to happen is United appointing a top level director of football with actual authority, and task them with a thorough examination of the club, its structure and players. Have them go over things with the manager, judge which players are worth of being kept and which need to go, and figure out if the manager is letting the team down, or if it's unrealistic to expect a whole lot more out of this squad.
Nonsense. Ole is as useless a manager as the letter 'k' in the word knife and needs to go. Woodward too is an incompetent buffoon but he doesn't come up with the tactically clueless and negatively shit style of football we endure eveey week.
 

Leftback99

Might have a bedwetting fetish.
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To achieve what targets? 4th place or to beat Rochdale, West Ham, Astana, Palace, S'oton, Bournemoth?
Where does this attitude that this team is good enough to turn up away at the likes of Bournemouth, Southampton and West Ham and sweep them aside come from?

Have you ever looked at a league table and noticed how few away games the teams around 6th spot (around our level) actually win?

You must have been desperate for SAF to get the sack during our title win in 10/11? 5 away wins all season, failing to beat the likes of Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland, Birmingham, Wolves. And that was when we actually had a good team.

If only football was as easy as x player cost more than y so that team should win.
 

RG 11

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Messages
870
Plenty of that on here.

1) He loves United, back off.
2) If we sack Ole now, who else is available now?
3) *Goes on to quote other better candidates like Poch and Allegri* , "Oh, but Poch has no trophies and Allegri is a dinosaur".
4) Ole is on the right track because he got rid of the deadwood. (Of which he did not replace any :houllier:)
5) No other manager could've done better with this squad.
6) We were patient with Fergie, therefore we should be patient with Ole too. (By far the most ignorant statement ever)
7) Keep on blabbering on about our miracle run last season.
8) It's the Woodward and the board's fault. (Even though we are playing tactically inept football)
9) Ole wasn't backed enough in the summer. (Did we really needed to sign more players to beat Palace and West Ham??? :houllier:)
10)....

Did I miss anything else?
You missed the part where they claim anyone can win the Seria A with that Juventus team and the fact that reaching back to back CL finals is more of a fluke.

EDIT: Also that you'll see us winning once Pogba and Martial are back from injury
 

Bobcat

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Too early to tell and anyone would have bought those same players. A lot of the cafe was clamouring for them too. He didn't unearth any. Even James was recommend by Giggsy.

Those guys you call deadwood are better than some of the players on our roster and would have us in a better position than we currently are.

We are in a worse state squad wise. The thinning of the squad should never have been done without the guarantee of replacements.

Bruno Fernandes was available, so was Hakim Ziyech who are both burgeoning talents same way AWB and James are but it was reported we didn't want Bruno cos of the regularity of misplaced passes from him(whatever that means) and if by 'right targets' you mean undisputed top class players, you might as well give it up as none of them worth their weight would wanna play under OGS. There are many players who would be an upgrade on this current lot. Why not build with them in the interim till we at least secure CL Football and push for the big guns?

We are already fecked as things stand. We are unlikely not gonna play in the Champs League again next season and that to you is not self-destruction considering we could salvage the season if we act swiftly. Fair enogh, we don't need to be a manager's graveyard but how long do you think should be afforded OGS to make an IMPACT as a manager? I am not talking about winning titles but at least seeing a recognisable pattern of tactical approach from him?

Dunno what the hell that means?

No one in their right senses expected a league challenge from OGD but can you with all honesty say that our players are worse than the players of the teams who have beaten or drawn against us this season. We all know those teams. I will spare you the ordeal of naming them one after the other and if our players are worse. Are you conversely saying their managers are better? If they are, then we are in deep shit becuase the managers of those teams who have gotten the better of us this season should never be better in essence than the manager of Man United.

If good coaching can turn Milner, Henderson and Wignaldum to Champions League Winners, then at least it can make Fres, Lingard and Perreira top 4 to top 6 material in the league.

I doubt even you believe what you wrote in that last paragraph yourself. It's comedy gold so I won't even bother on that.
Ok, so when it comes down to signings intent is more important than actual results? Every manager has people recommending players to them., what matter is actually singing them. And i cant believe we have to go through the players sold again, but here goes: Sanchez, Darman and Valencia offered nothing. Smalling is only on loan, we are currently overstocked on CB's and we bought an direct upgrade in Maguire. Lukaku was utterly unprofessional and had to go despite him being a decent CF. Herrera was down to Woody fecking around with his contract and he was already gone when Ole got here

And transfer rumors are as unreliable as they come. Everyone could see that the squad needed at least 1-2 more players. Do you honestly think Ole and his coaches said "Naw Woody, these lads will do, we dont want any more signings". The thing is though, our last three managers and especially the last two tried to make instant success and win the league the year they arrived and in the end it all backfired spectacularly. From obvious mercenaries like Di Maria and Sanchez, to old players like Matic and Zlatan who could make an impact then and there. And dont get me wrong, i fecking loved having Zlatan here and i would put him down as one of the few good transfers these last 6 years, but when you sign a 35 year old, its pretty clear what your intent is. All these "impact signings" we have tried to do the last years have brought us nothing but misery

We have the second highest wage bill in the league. Maybe Woody/owners demanded we trimmed the wage bill before make new additions? Woody is hardly known for his stellar negotiation skills, maybe we had transfers fall through because he was fecking around as per ususal? But of all the reasons we can think of as to why we did not sign more players, Ole and his coaches not wanting them. seems utterly bizarre to me

And we are fecked. We have been fecked since the day Fergie retired and have gradually become more fecked each passing year when it culminated in Jose have his meltdown a year ago. And i am not saying things have to get worse before they got better, but to me at least it was clear we had to hit the reset button completely. That means purging the squad of players not up to standard, working on fitness (yes it was a problem) and more importantly working on the culture and mentality in the player group and adding the right kinds of players. These things take time, and it will affect the results then and there since your focus is on the future rather than the now.

And i do see how we are trying to play (Norwich and the first game vs Chelsea). The problem, especially without Pogba, is that we lack the quality to puncture organized defenses and move the ball way to slowly in attack because our midfield (mostly), lacks the confidence and/or the skill to transition fast enough from defense to attack. We also look clueless against low blocks because we have exactly one player (Martial) who is adept at handling the ball and exploiting small spaces. Our current squad is also bizarrely small and lightweight when you think about it, so we dont really have anyone that can bully defenders in the box and be a real danger on crosses

And yes, "worse teams" with "worse manager" have beaten us this year, but that happens all the time. Newcastle and B'moth for example was undoubtedly rotten performances, but i cant recall that being down to us being tactically outdone or anything, rather we did not look up for it and failed in clutch moments while at the same time giving away cheap goals because we turned off. None of our losses this year have we been hammered and De Gea have been bombarded and saved us from embarrassment. They have been tight, scruffy affairs we have come out on bottom because we have lacked the quality in the final third

Anderson, Welbeck and Jonny Evans also has a CL-winners medal, every good team needs those kinds of players. And the three you mentioned? I would have taken them in a heartbeat. Would have improved us a lot imo

And my last comment was not serious, just trying to be a cheeky. At the end of the day though, everyone here realize we are shit now, we have been shit for quite some time and are going to be shit for quite a while into the future. And i am not saying Ole is some sort of martyr, but being manager of Manchester United right now is a dirty job and not much fun. You have the pressure to deliver because of the history and status of the club, but lack the tools to do that because the supporting structure is just not there and the squad is a mangled mess that is the results of years of short term thinking, bad influences and negativity.

And that managers graveyard i talked about is a real concern. Ok, say we sack Ole and hire Allegri, i would not agree but i would get behind him regardless. Even if we assume that Ole and his team has no clue about coaching and are completely inept at tactics, Allegri would still have to struggle with a poor squad and regardless of how badly a team is doing, taking over mid season is never ideal. And even if Allegri is the best coach and tactician in the world, implementing that takes time, not to mention players that fit your vision, so we will undoubtedly hit a few more walls as the season goes by. Personally i would not hold that against him, but going by this forum the average United fan certainly would, because everyone in here seems more than willing to use the end of last season as a stick to beat Ole with so i assume it would be the same if not worse for Allegri, considering he has no former ties with the club. So say Allegri ends up 5th after a mediocre half season, the pressure on him in August 2020 will be absolutely MASSIVE and unless we are banged on the 3rd best team in the PL by then, i can guarantee a portion of our more entitled fans will start turning on him as well, because they cant accept a world where United is not the top dog.

So if we continue the season as poorly as we have done and end up midtable. Sure, Ole has under performed somewhat and has had a full season+preseason to make his mark, failed to do so, so sacking him would be justified. The next manager, be it Allegri or someone else will know that they at least, will be afforded a full season+preseason to work things out and improving on a midtable finish is a much more reasonable demand than some vague goal of top 4/6
 

Abhinav

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Messages
864
Ok, so when it comes down to signings intent is more important than actual results? Every manager has people recommending players to them., what matter is actually singing them. And i cant believe we have to go through the players sold again, but here goes: Sanchez, Darman and Valencia offered nothing. Smalling is only on loan, we are currently overstocked on CB's and we bought an direct upgrade in Maguire. Lukaku was utterly unprofessional and had to go despite him being a decent CF. Herrera was down to Woody fecking around with his contract and he was already gone when Ole got here

And transfer rumors are as unreliable as they come. Everyone could see that the squad needed at least 1-2 more players. Do you honestly think Ole and his coaches said "Naw Woody, these lads will do, we dont want any more signings". The thing is though, our last three managers and especially the last two tried to make instant success and win the league the year they arrived and in the end it all backfired spectacularly. From obvious mercenaries like Di Maria and Sanchez, to old players like Matic and Zlatan who could make an impact then and there. And dont get me wrong, i fecking loved having Zlatan here and i would put him down as one of the few good transfers these last 6 years, but when you sign a 35 year old, its pretty clear what your intent is. All these "impact signings" we have tried to do the last years have brought us nothing but misery

We have the second highest wage bill in the league. Maybe Woody/owners demanded we trimmed the wage bill before make new additions? Woody is hardly known for his stellar negotiation skills, maybe we had transfers fall through because he was fecking around as per ususal? But of all the reasons we can think of as to why we did not sign more players, Ole and his coaches not wanting them. seems utterly bizarre to me

And we are fecked. We have been fecked since the day Fergie retired and have gradually become more fecked each passing year when it culminated in Jose have his meltdown a year ago. And i am not saying things have to get worse before they got better, but to me at least it was clear we had to hit the reset button completely. That means purging the squad of players not up to standard, working on fitness (yes it was a problem) and more importantly working on the culture and mentality in the player group and adding the right kinds of players. These things take time, and it will affect the results then and there since your focus is on the future rather than the now.

And i do see how we are trying to play (Norwich and the first game vs Chelsea). The problem, especially without Pogba, is that we lack the quality to puncture organized defenses and move the ball way to slowly in attack because our midfield (mostly), lacks the confidence and/or the skill to transition fast enough from defense to attack. We also look clueless against low blocks because we have exactly one player (Martial) who is adept at handling the ball and exploiting small spaces. Our current squad is also bizarrely small and lightweight when you think about it, so we dont really have anyone that can bully defenders in the box and be a real danger on crosses

And yes, "worse teams" with "worse manager" have beaten us this year, but that happens all the time. Newcastle and B'moth for example was undoubtedly rotten performances, but i cant recall that being down to us being tactically outdone or anything, rather we did not look up for it and failed in clutch moments while at the same time giving away cheap goals because we turned off. None of our losses this year have we been hammered and De Gea have been bombarded and saved us from embarrassment. They have been tight, scruffy affairs we have come out on bottom because we have lacked the quality in the final third

Anderson, Welbeck and Jonny Evans also has a CL-winners medal, every good team needs those kinds of players. And the three you mentioned? I would have taken them in a heartbeat. Would have improved us a lot imo

And my last comment was not serious, just trying to be a cheeky. At the end of the day though, everyone here realize we are shit now, we have been shit for quite some time and are going to be shit for quite a while into the future. And i am not saying Ole is some sort of martyr, but being manager of Manchester United right now is a dirty job and not much fun. You have the pressure to deliver because of the history and status of the club, but lack the tools to do that because the supporting structure is just not there and the squad is a mangled mess that is the results of years of short term thinking, bad influences and negativity.

And that managers graveyard i talked about is a real concern. Ok, say we sack Ole and hire Allegri, i would not agree but i would get behind him regardless. Even if we assume that Ole and his team has no clue about coaching and are completely inept at tactics, Allegri would still have to struggle with a poor squad and regardless of how badly a team is doing, taking over mid season is never ideal. And even if Allegri is the best coach and tactician in the world, implementing that takes time, not to mention players that fit your vision, so we will undoubtedly hit a few more walls as the season goes by. Personally i would not hold that against him, but going by this forum the average United fan certainly would, because everyone in here seems more than willing to use the end of last season as a stick to beat Ole with so i assume it would be the same if not worse for Allegri, considering he has no former ties with the club. So say Allegri ends up 5th after a mediocre half season, the pressure on him in August 2020 will be absolutely MASSIVE and unless we are banged on the 3rd best team in the PL by then, i can guarantee a portion of our more entitled fans will start turning on him as well, because they cant accept a world where United is not the top dog.

So if we continue the season as poorly as we have done and end up midtable. Sure, Ole has under performed somewhat and has had a full season+preseason to make his mark, failed to do so, so sacking him would be justified. The next manager, be it Allegri or someone else will know that they at least, will be afforded a full season+preseason to work things out and improving on a midtable finish is a much more reasonable demand than some vague goal of top 4/6
Couldn’t agree more. Have been trying to put it into words, but wasn’t able to put it as eloquently as you have.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
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Messages
61,623
I wouldn't say Ole is doing an amazing job so far, but let's say we did sack him.

Who the hell is available that'll be guaranteed to do better?

I'd like the Ajax manager Ten Haag but he's ruled himself out of the Bayern job and wants to stay until the summer.

Allegri is not guaranteed to do any better. Especially with the squad we have.

Unfortunately we fans just need to be patient and see what happens with a few fresh faces.
Why would Allegri not be better then the Cardiff guy?
 

Mainoldo

New Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2004
Messages
22,965
Ok, so when it comes down to signings intent is more important than actual results? Every manager has people recommending players to them., what matter is actually singing them. And i cant believe we have to go through the players sold again, but here goes: Sanchez, Darman and Valencia offered nothing. Smalling is only on loan, we are currently overstocked on CB's and we bought an direct upgrade in Maguire. Lukaku was utterly unprofessional and had to go despite him being a decent CF. Herrera was down to Woody fecking around with his contract and he was already gone when Ole got here

And transfer rumors are as unreliable as they come. Everyone could see that the squad needed at least 1-2 more players. Do you honestly think Ole and his coaches said "Naw Woody, these lads will do, we dont want any more signings". The thing is though, our last three managers and especially the last two tried to make instant success and win the league the year they arrived and in the end it all backfired spectacularly. From obvious mercenaries like Di Maria and Sanchez, to old players like Matic and Zlatan who could make an impact then and there. And dont get me wrong, i fecking loved having Zlatan here and i would put him down as one of the few good transfers these last 6 years, but when you sign a 35 year old, its pretty clear what your intent is. All these "impact signings" we have tried to do the last years have brought us nothing but misery

We have the second highest wage bill in the league. Maybe Woody/owners demanded we trimmed the wage bill before make new additions? Woody is hardly known for his stellar negotiation skills, maybe we had transfers fall through because he was fecking around as per ususal? But of all the reasons we can think of as to why we did not sign more players, Ole and his coaches not wanting them. seems utterly bizarre to me

And we are fecked. We have been fecked since the day Fergie retired and have gradually become more fecked each passing year when it culminated in Jose have his meltdown a year ago. And i am not saying things have to get worse before they got better, but to me at least it was clear we had to hit the reset button completely. That means purging the squad of players not up to standard, working on fitness (yes it was a problem) and more importantly working on the culture and mentality in the player group and adding the right kinds of players. These things take time, and it will affect the results then and there since your focus is on the future rather than the now.

And i do see how we are trying to play (Norwich and the first game vs Chelsea). The problem, especially without Pogba, is that we lack the quality to puncture organized defenses and move the ball way to slowly in attack because our midfield (mostly), lacks the confidence and/or the skill to transition fast enough from defense to attack. We also look clueless against low blocks because we have exactly one player (Martial) who is adept at handling the ball and exploiting small spaces. Our current squad is also bizarrely small and lightweight when you think about it, so we dont really have anyone that can bully defenders in the box and be a real danger on crosses

And yes, "worse teams" with "worse manager" have beaten us this year, but that happens all the time. Newcastle and B'moth for example was undoubtedly rotten performances, but i cant recall that being down to us being tactically outdone or anything, rather we did not look up for it and failed in clutch moments while at the same time giving away cheap goals because we turned off. None of our losses this year have we been hammered and De Gea have been bombarded and saved us from embarrassment. They have been tight, scruffy affairs we have come out on bottom because we have lacked the quality in the final third

Anderson, Welbeck and Jonny Evans also has a CL-winners medal, every good team needs those kinds of players. And the three you mentioned? I would have taken them in a heartbeat. Would have improved us a lot imo

And my last comment was not serious, just trying to be a cheeky. At the end of the day though, everyone here realize we are shit now, we have been shit for quite some time and are going to be shit for quite a while into the future. And i am not saying Ole is some sort of martyr, but being manager of Manchester United right now is a dirty job and not much fun. You have the pressure to deliver because of the history and status of the club, but lack the tools to do that because the supporting structure is just not there and the squad is a mangled mess that is the results of years of short term thinking, bad influences and negativity.

And that managers graveyard i talked about is a real concern. Ok, say we sack Ole and hire Allegri, i would not agree but i would get behind him regardless. Even if we assume that Ole and his team has no clue about coaching and are completely inept at tactics, Allegri would still have to struggle with a poor squad and regardless of how badly a team is doing, taking over mid season is never ideal. And even if Allegri is the best coach and tactician in the world, implementing that takes time, not to mention players that fit your vision, so we will undoubtedly hit a few more walls as the season goes by. Personally i would not hold that against him, but going by this forum the average United fan certainly would, because everyone in here seems more than willing to use the end of last season as a stick to beat Ole with so i assume it would be the same if not worse for Allegri, considering he has no former ties with the club. So say Allegri ends up 5th after a mediocre half season, the pressure on him in August 2020 will be absolutely MASSIVE and unless we are banged on the 3rd best team in the PL by then, i can guarantee a portion of our more entitled fans will start turning on him as well, because they cant accept a world where United is not the top dog.

So if we continue the season as poorly as we have done and end up midtable. Sure, Ole has under performed somewhat and has had a full season+preseason to make his mark, failed to do so, so sacking him would be justified. The next manager, be it Allegri or someone else will know that they at least, will be afforded a full season+preseason to work things out and improving on a midtable finish is a much more reasonable demand than some vague goal of top 4/6
Can’t believe they are people out there that believe this rubbish. What a-load of crap.

My favourite parts are you would take Henderson, Milner and Gigi. Worse managers have beat us? No better managers have beat us. We get Allegri and go higher up in the table but fans are unhappy because we aren’t third (I wonder why? Maybe because we aren’t the same level as Everton).

Imagine being good looking with a big tool and having a overweight wife. That’s what you guys are like supporting United. Absolutely wastemen.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,623
United reminds me of a patient who goes for an operation at a poorly run hospital. The patient ends up with complications so they hired a top surgeon to correct the mistake as things had gone worse. However because its a poorly run hospital the patient's recovery has been mishandled so he's back to square one. So what does the hospital do? Instead of using a top surgeon again which will cost huge money to hire they ask the nursing aid to do the job. Their excuse is that unlike the former the latter might do better cause he has been at the hospital for a long time and he gets what working there means

In reality what the hospital needs is to fire the board and hire top people from top to bottom instead. However things won't get better by employing a nursing aid to do a top surgeon job. It only makes it worse
 

AneRu

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
3,117
But there’s an argument he had to sell to buy to address the major problems. And that is a process that was always going to take several windows.

Regardless, we can break the problems down across both micro and macro scales:

Micro - The Manager

- On the positive side he has shown good tactical awareness and flexibility playing against teams that attack and leave space across the pitch. Hence his hood record against the other big six. On the negative he has proved alarmingly easy to nullify with a low block defence, hence his shocking record against everyone else. Bottom line, transition or no transition, results are nowhere near good good enough, and he’s shown no aptitude to learn how to address his weaknesses. His in game tactical tweaking, especially use of subs, has been alarmingly poor.

- While he positively identified fitness as being a major cause of our woes last season; there has clearly been something very wrong with our preseason training, with a huge volume of players suffering soft tissue muscle injuries over the opening month of the season. This likely came as a result of overtraining with improper recovery. Trying to do too much too soon. Dan James did his own pre-preseason fitness work, as I heard did Rashford. And I bet we’ll see those two be the most durable across the season.

- His signings have been excellent. Best we’ve had in years. But they’ve come at a cost. Several players have been moved on, all of whom I agree with, yet replacements have not been bought. I’m all for bringing the young players through, but the over reliance on them for squad depth has been preposterous. If we had signed a CM and a forward in summer, we’d be much better off right now. You need depth. Since Ole came in Valencia, Smalling, Darmian, Herrera, Fellaini, Sanchez, and Lukaku have all gone out, and only Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James have come in. Not going to argue with the outs - Herrera could’ve stayed but we’ll never know how much he really wanted for his new deal - and the ins have been great; but the squad is short on numbers now and when you have key injuries you realise how desperately short on quality it is.

Young, Bailly, Rojo, Matic, Lingard, and Mata are not of the required quality to be at the club, and offer next to nothing.

Shaw is hugely injury prone, so we have no reliable left back. In a team where all our width comes from fullbacks.

Fred and Pereira are squad player quality.

Pogba is 100% of our creative threat, and he doesn’t want to be here.

The squad is moving in the right direction but the way it’s being done, you have to be either naive or incredibly stupid not to see that we were always 1-2 injuries away from finishing between 8th and 14th in the league. That’s inexcusably bad planning.

The Macro - The board

- Hired Moyes and let him gut the most successful back room team in British football for Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round.

- Sanctioned the signing of Fellaini for 4m more than his release clause after pulling the plug on a deal for Thiago.

- Fired a counter attacking coach and replaced him with a methodical possession obsessed coach and let him move out 14 first team players in 11 months.

- Fired said possession based coach after 4th and 5th place finishes and a cup win, and a complete squad overhaul at the cost of 300m; and replaced him with diametrically philosophically opposed coach, ensuring no continuity of desirable player attributes.

- Sanctioned a further complete squad overhaul, moving on another 15+ first team players in 24 months, and at a cost of 400m, to fit the new philosophy.

- Fired this coach 30 months later, and hired a caretaker manager with another diametrically opposed approach, now focused on high pressing and workrate and fast fluid football (supposedly).

- The board preach calm and consideration about making a new permanent appointment. Yet despite assurances no appointment will be made until the close season, jump the gun and offer caretaker manager a permanent contract after a run of excellent results and one famous away win in Europe. Nostalgia reigns.

- Consequently, they sanction another complete squad overhaul and start moving out first team players with gleeful abandon. Players who are not adequately repacked, leaning the squad woefully short and underperforming.

No prizes for guessing where this is going. Results will continue to deteriore. Ole will probably make January if results are just about good enough. Will make one or two desperate signings there, and then get sacked when it’s clear we will finish 8th or lower. The board will then hire yet another new coach, with another contrarian approach and the whole process will begin again. Yet each time declining revenues and financial pressures will make it harder and harder to both fund and attract players.

Bottom line is that we have the worst executive management team in charge of football operations of any major club in the world. The timeline of strategic decisions is so appallingly negligent and lacking any long term strategic intent, that any insightful, ambitious, competent company, would make major changes to both its key personnel and organisational structure.

Anybody who thinks any of this is going to get solved by firing Ole is painfully naive. There is NOTHING that is going to happen positively here, other than a short term upturn in results for a few months or even a season, under a new manager, until the ownership and/or organisational structure of the company changes significantly. Sooner or later any manager is going to be victim of the deep, deep flaws in our recruitment strategy, and invariably starting from scratch with a demoralised squad.

At this point the only way to save the club is for a United and relentless pressure on the Glazers to sell. This would require mass boycotts of games, and merchandise on a scale hitherto unseen, and for all the key figures in United’s recent history to speak out and stand for the cause. I am talking SAF, Sir Bobby, all recent legends. Something to cause global damage to the brand and pressure. And I am afraid NONE of that is going to happen.

Bottom line, the club is currently fecked. It needs massive Infrastructure investment, massive playing squad investment, and a complete football operations overhaul. Until the Glazers are gone, this is an utterly hopeless situation. I am at the point of tuning out. Everything that happens is so alarming predictable, and I would bet my bottom dollar that the exact same pattern that has played out for the last 6 years, will play out for the next however many, until they leave.

There are so many threads on here about sack this manager and hire that one, or sell Lingard and buy Sancho. But frankly we could hire the ghost of Sir Matt Busby, and sign Roy of the Rovers, and we’d still be fecking hopeless. It’s all a moot exercise. You can only rip up the playbook so many times. It takes years to lay down foundations for success, and you may have two or three or even four managers building on those foundations before you get the house you want; but the foundations are there nonetheless. What we’ve been doing is saying “nah, don’t like the way that looks, knock the house down, rip up the foundations, change the elevation of the lot, stick a moat around it, make it 6 stories instead of two..”, and then the next manager comes in and says “nope, none of that works, the entire thing needs to be subterranean.”

It’s truly laughable that this keeps going on, and is being allowed to go on. And our owners are too fecking thick and clueless about football to realise what a fecking terrible CEO Woodward is. “Oh but he’s making them money” I hear some of you mew, but he really isn’t. Growth is stagnant, expenses have been flagrantly high for no return - all because of poor strategic planning -, the asset is under pressure across the board and about to suffer sponsorship penalties for underperforming. The club should’ve have grown hugely in the last six years, instead it’s watched all our rivals catch up to us economically, and lesser clubs surpass us on the field.

It’s a fecking disgrace and I advise you all to stop giving a shit about what happens in the short term.
Excellent post and I agree with a lot of what you said however I think our situation is not that bad but only if we change things at the top. People underestimate what we lost when SAF retired, he was our de facto DOF and the Glazers were smart enough to defer to him on all issues to do with the football club but now he is gone there is no manager with comparable vision and talent but more importantly authority - we just do not have a manager established enough to convince the owners to go above and beyond which is why we are seeing the woefully inadequate transfer windows.

If the Glazers want to salvage the situation they certainly could but it all depends on whether they want to and can identify the right man to come in as DOF to bring vision, strategy and direction on the football side. Just allowing the manager's whims to determine transfer strategy has led us to this point, imagine that under Jose we chose to sign Matic ahead of Fabinho and now two years later the former is washed up and the latter a CL winner but we had the chance to sign him and player name checked us several times. Just last week Ole was saying he has a veto on who comes in or who goes but looking at his performances the man could be justifiably sacked any minute but he has veto power over our critical strategic decisions. Next guy comes in and is handed the same power and decides that our record fee central defender is too slow, what then?
 
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