We were already going to sell him before the pre season started so it was not during the last day of the market. Question the board why the negotiation took way too long not question the manager.Its nothing wrong with that, but you just dont do it in the last day of the market without a proper replacement, its not that hard to understand. Its not about selling Lukaku, its about letting him go without a replacement and leaving yourself vulnerable at the last minute.
Just imagine this scenario, De Gea publicy asks to leave and we sell him the last day of the transfer market without buying a replacement, which leaves us with only Romero on goal. Would that makes sense to you? Wouldnt the manager say "HEY WAIT WHY THE FECK ARE YOU SELLING ONE KEEPER IF I ONLY HAVE 2?!" that exactly what he did with Lukaku and left us only with Martial.We were already going to sell him before the pre season started so it was not during the last day of the market. Question the board why the negotiation took way too long not question the manager.
What else the manager can do to stop a player who doesn't want to be here from leaving? This is where the manager has no other choice but you struggle to understand because you think it's simple as how you described it.
Your comparison is totally doesn't make sense.Just imagine this scenario, De Gea publicy asks to leave and we sell him the last day of the transfer market without buying a replacement, which leaves us with only Romero on goal. Would that makes sense to you? Wouldnt the manager say "HEY WAIT WHY THE FECK ARE YOU SELLING ONE KEEPER IF I ONLY HAVE 2?!" that exactly what he did with Lukaku and left us only with Martial.
Again is not about letting Lukaku leave, is about letting him go without securing a replacement. Maybe the difference between you and me is that Im totally convinced that a manager has influence on players incoming and leaving, and you think that things happen without the manager knowledge or influence.
I imagine it's somewhere between these two points. Ole said at the time people leaving would be replaced, I imagine he said Lukaku and Sanchez can go but I need a new players, Ed and Judge said OK and then, oops we've run out of time, we tried really hard to get Dybala and others but there were problems, sorry Ole do with what you have and Ole said OK I won't rock the boat!Again is not about letting Lukaku leave, is about letting him go without securing a replacement. Maybe the difference between you and me is that Im totally convinced that a manager has influence on players incoming and leaving, and you think that things happen without the manager knowledge or influence.
Haha great post.This whole thread and many others can be summed up in this easy to use table.
OLE IN OLE OUT He’s cleared loads of deadwood Any manager could do that and he didn’t replace properly so has left us with a paper thin squad Ole doesn’t have the final say on transfers The manager has the final say on transfers He’s done well in the face of injuries to major players All squads suffer injuries through a season, he should have bought more replacements in the summer, it's no excuse Players have progressed under him, like Fred, McT, Rashford. The coaching is working. Fred just got better because Ole was forced to play him for a run of games, McT was good under Jose, Rashford would have progressed under any manager. Ole has no coaching skills either do his coaches. His signings have been spot on AWB can’t do anything going forward, Maguire is no better than Smalling, James is a squad player at best. OK at the moment I’ll give you Bruno We’re playing attacking football for the first time in ages I see no tactics. If we win it is down a moment of individual skill and that’s nowt to do with the manager. We’re still competing for the Europa, FA Cup and top4/5 (depending on City) Yes but there’s no plan, no tactics and normally this level of points would have us in 10th. We’re rebuilding after years of dross and random signings he needs time. Top managers should be able to rebuild and play decently. Klopp, Pep, Rodgers [insert manager name here] didn’t need time you could see their plan straight away. Ed is the issue Ole and Ed are the issue You’re agenda driven You’re blinded by your unconditional love for Ole You’re a negative hate driven top red You’re a snowflake top red Ole fan boy
Change the scenario then, the keeper leaving was Romero, still a stupid decision to let your back up keeper leave without replacement aint it?Your comparison is totally doesn't make sense.
We lost Lukaku but we still have Martial who can be good enough to be our regular striker, Martial is pretty much his replacement as regular striker role, what we didn't have is the backup option. Romero is not good enough to be our regular keeper, absolutely two different scenario! The replacement of Lukaku was never going to be our regular striker. You can't compare DDG leaves with Romero to replace his regular spot to Lukaku leaves with Martial to replace his regular spot.
It makes sense if Ole told Pogba that you can't leave last summer no matter what because we couldn't get a replacement for him. At the end of the day Lukaku wants to leave, Ole probably promised to Lukaku and told Martial you are going to be my regular striker, and told Ed we need to sign a backup striker but Ed failed to deliver in the summer and failed to deliver Haland as well.
Who's to blamed now?
I would agree if Lukaku would had been sold with one month or three weeks before, then I would buy the “maybe he was promised a replacement and Woodward failed to deliver” but lets not kid ourselves he knew there was no replacement coming with just one day in the window, no team would be stupid enough to sell one forward on the last day because that would leave them with no room to react, nobody but us.I imagine it's somewhere between these two points. Ole said at the time people leaving would be replaced, I imagine he said Lukaku and Sanchez can go but I need a new players, Ed and Judge said OK and then, oops we've run out of time, we tried really hard to get Dybala and others but there were problems, sorry Ole do with what you have and Ole said OK I won't rock the boat!
Didn't I tell you that you struggle to understand because you think it's simple as how you described it. If player like Romero will leave, it'll be without being complicated like how Inter dealt with Lukaku which give Ed easy to get the business for his replacement.Change the scenario then, the keeper leaving was Romero, still a stupid decision to let your back up keeper leave without replacement aint it?
And the second paragraph is just based on assumptions “probably he told Lukaku that he could leave and probably told Martial he was his first striker and probably told Woodward etc” well I dont know if he say any of those things but what I do know is that he let Lukaku leave without a replacement which ultimately hurt us.
We know he wanted a striker on january because we suffered the consequences of not having one during the first half of the season.Didn't I tell you that you struggle to understand because you think it's simple as how you described it. If player like Romero will leave, it'll be without being complicated like how Inter dealt with Lukaku which give Ed easy to get the business for his replacement.
What's the different between what you posted? What you posted also assumption. How can you blame a manager for something you don't know what's going on behind the scene.
I'm not just making assumption here. We know the manager wanted a striker, he asked for a striker like Haaland and the Ed failed to deliver, and the fact that we signed Ighalo in the last minute also proves me enough who is incompetent in doing the job. If we fail the secure Ighalo & Bruno in the last minute or days of deadline, I bet you are going to blame the manager for not signing them as well.
Mate, you got no clue what's going on. You are just blaming blindly.
We have a style of play, players are getting better. Doesn't matter if it's against Watford.WTF are you taling about? This was Watford who is second from the bottom we played. Maguire and Lindelof controlling what? We could have conceded if not for a brilliant challenge by Shaw before we even scored. For the first few minutes they had no clue as to what was happening. Our defence was all over the place. AWB composed on the ball? You must have been watching a different match. Martial was always going to get better because he has the talent and ability and thats why he was bought. Fred was a Brasilian International who was in their WC squad and needed time to get settled in the PL. Shaw always had the talent and it was his fitness that was always questioned.
Look at Liepzig play. Nagelsemann is a much better coach than Ole by any strength of the imagination. Molde level coaching or Cardiff City level coaching is what he is.
To be fair everyone knew he was going weeks before the deadline. I imagine behind the scenes Ole didn't sign this off on deadline day but back in July. Lukaku missed lots of pre-season and made it perfectly clear during Inter's bids for him that he wanted to go. United were linked with lots of forwards and attackers like Dembele and Dybala. It would have been almost impossible to say on deadline day, no it's not happening after Lukaku had decided to train with Anderlecht rather than United. You could argue that no dressing room would be stupid enough to keep him given how relations deteriorated in those last few weeks. But I agree whether it was down to Ole or Ed and Judge or a bit of all of them, it was a mistake not to replace him.I would agree if Lukaku would had been sold with one month or three weeks before, then I would buy the “maybe he was promised a replacement and Woodward failed to deliver” but lets not kid ourselves he knew there was no replacement coming with just one day in the window, no team would be stupid enough to sell one forward on the last day because that would leave them with no room to react, nobody but us.
We were linked with Mandzukic and we even had negotiation with Dybala. So it's not exactly just January transfer that we are linked with striker.We know he wanted a striker on january because we suffered the consequences of not having one during the first half of the season.
He asked for Haaland until the winter transfer, he never said anything about wanting a striker during the summer window, instead he insisted on the Utd DNA and blabla.
At the end of the day he either let Lukaku leave without replacement or didn’t have the weight enough to force Woodward’s hand to get a replacement/force him not to sell Lukaku, either way that doesnt leave him on a good position.
No high profile manager would’ve allowed that to happen to him.
Negotiations take months, the rumor mill was active for at least a few months before the transfer was confirmed. The fact that it happened close to deadline day means nothing at all, it's just our negotiators trying to squeeze as much as they can out of the deal.Is there any evidence that suggest otherwise? Do you think a manager with weight would had allowed it?
I am not saying OGS deserves credit for all those players suddenly turning into excellent players - but man management probably has something to do it with it, at least when it comes to Martial and Rashford. And yes Matic has improved dramatically this season - but with him I think it has more to do with less fatigue rather than anything else. Pereira turning into shit ? You mean he was brilliant under Mourinho ?Its funny that people gives credit or puts blame on the manager or player depending on the argument.
Not anything against you, but I've seen both sides you could also argue that he turned Lingard, Mata, Pereira, Matic into shit. All of them werent as bad as they are now, specially Lingard before Ole came, so by the same logic its also his fault that this players declined massively.
I dont think a manager should be judged by the progress of specific players but by the progress of the team overall, what good does it makes that he turnes 3-4 players into great ones but overall the team is not performing? Or who the feck cares in a player declines massively under a manager if the team is performing?
A progress of a player is affected by a lot of factors, of course the manager can either help or damage that progress but its only one of the many reason why a player gets better or worse so I wouldn't give credit or blame a manager by it.
No, Pereira was shit but wasn’t as lowly rated as he is today, but thats not the point. The point is that while some players have improved under Ole others have either stagnated or declined, so I wouldn’t use that argument to glorify/crucify a manager just as I explained on that post.I am not saying OGS deserves credit for all those players suddenly turning into excellent players - but man management probably has something to do it with it, at least when it comes to Martial and Rashford. And yes Matic has improved dramatically this season - but with him I think it has more to do with less fatigue rather than anything else. Pereira turning into shit ? You mean he was brilliant under Mourinho ?
Im not saying its only Ole’s fault, of course is also Woodward’s fault, he should oversee the posible problems and avoid them such as entering a season with just one striker. But like you say you are blindly defending Ole based on assumptions when everyone can see its at least, partly, his fault.We were linked with Mandzukic and we even had negotiation with Dybala. So it's not exactly just January transfer that we are linked with striker.
At the end of the day, he wanted a striker, Ed was proven to fail to deliver it to him. In fact even after publicly he said he wanted a striker, Ed still delivered it in the last minute of January transfer window. Why is it so hard for you to understand this? You got no clue but blaming the manager blindly.
Negotiations dont take months, you can’t seriously believe that. That we take months to get deals done its another thing but efective teams get deals done is days/weeks.Negotiations take months, the rumor mill was active for at least a few months before the transfer was confirmed. The fact that it happened close to deadline day means nothing at all, it's just our negotiators trying to squeeze as much as they can out of the deal.
Ole has been saying (since the end of last season) that he wants 5-6 new players but acknowledged that this was too hard to get done in one summer and so he prioritized defence over midfield / attack.
It was clearly a bad decision and he gets some amount of stick over it, but you can't pin the blame on Ole for Lukaku deciding to leave.
Im not saying its only Ole’s fault, of course is also Woodward’s fault, he should oversee the posible problems and avoid them such as entering a season with just one striker. But like you say you are blindly defending Ole based on assumptions when everyone can see its at least, partly, his fault.
Anyway, I dont think we’ll see him make the same mistake again.
If “he’’ means you are not referring to “only” Ole, I don’t know how you can mistook ‘’he“ as ’’they”. You are blaming the manager for selling the player and not wanting to replace the player. But what proof do you have that he didn’t want or had any intention to replace the player? None but just assumption.Because he let Lukaku go on the last day of the transfer market?
Its implied in the statement on “letting” he didn’t sold Lukaku but he let Woodward sold him.If “he’’ means you are not referring to “only” Ole, I don’t know how you can mistook ‘’he“ as ’’they”. You are blaming the manager for selling the player and not wanting to replace the player. But what proof do you have that he didn’t want or had any intention to replace the player? None but just assumption.
I’m questioning your assumption that blame a single manager, I’m not just defending a manager blindly.
The reason why it's going circle because you refuse to accept what is actually happening. Lukaku has no interest to stay and both the manager & player are already in agreement about this, how do we know? the player didn't play a single pre season match with us despite of joining in our pre season training camp. Do you want more concrete proof? (Click link below) Lukaku himself even admitted it he wanted to leave while the manager wanted him to stay.Its implied in the statement on “letting” he didn’t sold Lukaku but he let Woodward sold him.
Anyway this has gone back and fourth I think we’re just going in circles, lets just agree to disagree on this one mate.
Lukaku was sold because he wasnt seen as a player that would fit our style and the offer we received was enough that we couldnt turn it downOle told Lukaku he wouldn't be preferred early on and he decided to move. What Ole could've done is kept Lukaku sweet until a replacement was lined up but that would mean playing him more which is not what Ole wanted to do. It's clear Ole prefers to play others and knows no-one was being signed or worked on and was confident on Martial and Rashford plus Greenwood.
We saw this completely backfire at the start of the season as Rashford on his own struggled up front with Martial out for a long time, then we have a brief spell with the pair working well together then quell surprise Rashford is overplayed, gets seriously injured and we struggle with just Martial up front and have a disaster Jan. We could've kept Lukaku and rotated them, especially so now we know about Rashford's problems, it's had us on the backfoot all season and we have overplayed McTom, rushed Pogba back.
There's a way to rebuild and you don't throw out your essentials. We went way too light with the squad and could've also rotated Smalling and Lindelof and saw what a Maguire Smalling partnership would look like and kept them all fresh. Ole told Smalling to go.
We we're bottom half with Ole saying after another poor result, we just have to get to January which was months out at the time. It was a hard lesson for Ole and board.
Signing Bruno is potentially huge, we would've just carried on as were in Jan with just Martial up front and Rashford out with no link up play.
If we are to keep Ole on, I hope he is learning. progress is slow and there's many mistakes in my view but he could pay off later and I do think we have a burgeoning squad that Ole understands like Greenwood, Williams and so on.
What style? We tried our hardest to buy a fox in the box we just sold in the summer. Doesn’t sound like a style sale to me.Lukaku was sold because he wasnt seen as a player that would fit our style and the offer we received was enough that we couldnt turn it down
Same with Smalling. People credit Southgate when he doesnt pick him for England and say that is shows a clear vision about how he wants to play. Same applies to Ole. Smalling is completely unsuited to the way we are trying to play out from the back.
Progress has actually been fast. Hes barely been in the job a year and yet we look to be 2 to 3 players away from having a strong XI with good backup. Vast improvements in the wage bill. We shouldn't forget how much dead weight we've been carrying for the last few years.
Even if he does that. Do you really want Ole managing us in the Champs League next season?Still goes at the end of the season in my opinion. I may feel differently if we put together a really good run between now and then to secure CL qualification, but I doubt it. We would require a level of consistency not seen at all to date.
Just when I thought this thread could not reach a new low.I’m completely torn.
Maybe with Bruno we can now break down some of the teams that sit back playing narrow & compact, we’ve not set up this season to be able to beat these teams and have been much more suited to those that bring the game to us.
He’s got a vision, has looked to bring in the right kind of player.
He’s not a world class tactician, but neither was Fergie but can he manage a squad and make the tough decisions? We’ll see what happens with Pogba.
Losing Pogba for the majority of the season has been unfortunate. How would Liverpool cope without Salah for the season, Arsenal would be fighting relegation without Auba.
Would a quality manager have this team only fighting for 4/5th or would we be fighting with Man City for second?
Given his track record vs quality teams, I think he would do very well in the CL.Even if he does that. Do you really want Ole managing us in the Champs League next season?
Which quality CL teams? Real? Barca? Bayern? Juve? Ajax? Dortmund?Given his track record vs quality teams, I think he would do very well in the CL.
I think Ole is more focused on "is the player quality" and "does he have the United DNA or character" rather than "how would he fit my philosophy". It's why he signed Maguire a slow CB to pair with another slow CB in Lindelof and tell them to play a highline. It's why he signed AWB who is not really good at attacking yet he wants his fullback to attack. It's why we signed Daniel James. This method seems to be working thoughWhat style? We tried our hardest to buy a fox in the box we just sold in the summer. Doesn’t sound like a style sale to me.
He is like a record thats been stuck on repeat till the groove is so deep, he cant get off it nor can he see anything outside the groove.We were linked with Mandzukic and we even had negotiation with Dybala. So it's not exactly just January transfer that we are linked with striker.
At the end of the day, he wanted a striker, Ed was proven to fail to deliver it to him. In fact even after publicly he said he wanted a striker, Ed still delivered it in the last minute of January transfer window. Why is it so hard for you to understand this? You got no clue but blaming the manager blindly.
You said given his track record against quality teams. So I asked which quality teams he has done well against in the CL.Well, that depends on who we'll draw, doesn't it?
We would not stand a chance against these teams. Funny how someone claims that Fergie was not a great tactitian (come on) so that would also be fine for Ole. One of the most stupid comments I have seen in hereYou said given his track record against quality teams. So I asked which quality teams he has done well against in the CL.
Lukaku just wasn't that good a footballer. Terrible first touch, fitness was an issue, his weight was up and down, and he looked like a footballer that lacked motivation and probably wasn't training that well. He looks happier at Inter so fair play to him - win win for both sides.What style? We tried our hardest to buy a fox in the box we just sold in the summer. Doesn’t sound like a style sale to me.
CL teams?You said given his track record against quality teams. So I asked which quality teams he has done well against in the CL.
He signed Maguire & AWB because we conceded 54 goals in the league last season - worst record of the top 9. This season we've been better - just over a goal a game average so far. Only 3 teams have conceded less. Its hard to argue against that.I think Ole is more focused on "is the player quality" and "does he have the United DNA or character" rather than "how would he fit my philosophy". It's why he signed Maguire a slow CB to pair with another slow CB in Lindelof and tell them to play a highline. It's why he signed AWB who is not really good at attacking yet he wants his fullback to attack. It's why we signed Daniel James. This method seems to be working though
Eh? We don't play a high line! We signed Maguire because Ole wants to play out from the back and not hoof. He wanted a CB who is good with the ball at his feet and can also be a good aerial presence. That's why Maguire (good with ball and good with his aerial presence at both ends). AWB was signed with the knowledge that he's very solid defensively and has the potential to be better at attack (very young and has previously played as a winger). Result is that we're much better at the back.I think Ole is more focused on "is the player quality" and "does he have the United DNA or character" rather than "how would he fit my philosophy". It's why he signed Maguire a slow CB to pair with another slow CB in Lindelof and tell them to play a highline. It's why he signed AWB who is not really good at attacking yet he wants his fullback to attack. It's why we signed Daniel James. This method seems to be working though
Man City. Hung on for dear life in the league after fifteen minutes.CL teams?
Man City
PSG
Spurs
Liverpool
Two of those were in the final last year.
He hasn't played any other.
Edit: Barcelona.
