Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[justsomebloke]

We have had Maguire James AWB Bruno VDB Telles Cavani Ighalo (loan) thats 8. You could even count Pellistri who has come in but Ole after saying he would be a starter has decided not to start him.
What do you count then over 2 years as a big influx?

I wouldn't actually say 8 players in two seasons is a lot, especially considering only 3 of them are starting XI players, and also considering that this is a team that is rebuilding, not just tinkering or maintaining.

Also, I don't think Ole has said that Pellistri would be a starter? First I hear of it anyway. He's said that he needs game time (but not where), and that he's "more one for the future, as he's only 18". Did I miss something?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

You are most certainly in a "trench" as you put it, because you seem to segregate anyone who thinks differently as the other side.

As for you "calling out stupidity and ridiculousness", it's massively ironic that you collude an imaginary scenario and assume what responses would be. There is nothing more stupid and ridiculous than that approach to debate, right there.

No I don't. It's totally fair to want Ole to get the sack. Many/most posters on all sides have valid and good points about their views. Some (the most vocal ones) don't.
And of course there are "sides" in this argument?! There are more than two sides, but there are sides. It's not only "Ole in" and "Ole out", it's like politics, I guess. There are "far right" and "far left" (who's who is not my point - just to make that clear), and nuances all over the spectrum. Raging lunatics with fachts, moving of goalposts, stats bending and straight up fabrication of evidence. Again - on all sides. I happen to be calling out the ones I disagree the most with.

I don't have a problem with people calling out my own ridiculousness, though. I realize my response to @Zen86 was ridiculous, as intended. It was never meant to be a serious response or an approach for serious debate, I thought that was obvious. But it's funny how many posters are vocal about how stupid it is to be hypothetical and rhetorical, while at the same time doing the exact same stuff themselves. Again, on all sides. Probably myself included.

 

[Zen86]

You realise you’re worse though?

I mean, a run of 3 wins now and I’m already happy that maybe I’m looking an idiot, and I want that to happen. I want to be in a title race, just like I wanted to be in the CL, and I’d love it to be Ole that does it.

You on the other hand no doubt already have your excuses at the ready for dropped points tonight and/or vs. Leeds, just as you did for us crashing out of the CL to a team managed for a shorter time than Ole and with a tenth of the budget.

And you just go and throw that last sentence right on in there

Just because I take exception to some of the miserable, bitter rubbish posted in here, doesn't mean I'm blind to our manager's shortcomings.

 

[rotherham_red]

We have had Maguire James AWB Bruno VDB Telles Cavani Ighalo (loan) thats 8. You could even count Pellistri who has come in but Ole after saying he would be a starter has decided not to start him.
What do you count then over 2 years as a big influx?

4 players a season is not a big influx. Three is the bare minimum in terms of incomings the club usually does in any season over the last decade or so. 4 is slightly above that, and in actual fact is even less when you consider how many players we have let go during this time as well from Fellaini to Smalling.

At this stage Jose had 8 players but barely let two players go. LvG had almost double the signings at the same stage too (though in fairrness, he did let quite a few leave as well).

The big issue has been that we couldn't get quite as many outgoings as we would have liked last year because most clubs weren't able to finance the deals on our terms.

 

[Zen86]

Well you literally made a scenario up so we don't need to cry it out. It's already there

It was a simple question, really. Interesting that you're reacting to it so much though.

 

[Chairman Steve]

At this point, I can’t see OGS leaving before end of season and I am someone who feels we have a good squad now and a better manager would give us a better chance to take us to the next level (Nagelsmann, Rose, Pochettino to name a few)

I don’t think we’re going to see any progression beyond new players coming in. I can’t see OGS and his coaches implementing nice attacking patterns like Guardiola or Klopp. It’s going to be more of the same where we Jekyll and Hyde through games in terms of quality. It’s going to be reliant on individual quality like Bruno (we are totally fecked if hes injured) and hoping teams have a go at us to create those counter-attack opportunities.

If he buys in January then like Bruno last year, I’ll give him a chance... Other than that I cant see anything other than at best same as last year coming in 3rd-4th, at worst 6th-7th. Even if we came in 3rd and long way off 1st and 2nd again, I’d be looking to change manager.

The only improvements we’re making under him are just the new players we have bought, but most teams improve like that anyway regardless of the manager. I get the feeling we’re just waiting for the millions to come available so he can buy the obvious good individual players, when there surely has to be managers out there who can implement a playing system that doesn’t involve having to spend millions on the obvious good individual players, and instead unfancied, unpolished gems who are 6/10 elsewhere end up looking 8/10 for us

 

[Skåre Willoch]

And you just go and throw that last sentence right on in there

Hypotheticals, hey? "You can't say I probably do anything, that's hypothetical and stupid! You probably...."

 

[georgipep]

That hurts, man

I read it, liked it and support the views! But it reminded me a lot of that scene in Friends' pilot episode

 

[Zen86]

Hypotheticals, hey? "You can't say I probably do anything, that's hypothetical and stupid! You probably...."

Everyone's holier than thou in this thread

 

[VP89]

No I don't. It's totally fair to want Ole to get the sack. Many/most posters on all sides have valid and good points about their views. Some (the most vocal ones) don't.
And of course there are "sides" in this argument?! There are more than two sides, but there are sides. It's not only "Ole in" and "Ole out", it's like politics, I guess. There are "far right" and "far left" (who's who is not my point - just to make that clear), and nuances all over the spectrum. Raging lunatics with fachts, moving of goalposts, stats bending and straight up fabrication of evidence. Again - on all sides. I happen to be calling out the ones I disagree the most with.

I don't have a problem with people calling out my own ridiculousness, though. I realize my response to @Zen86 was ridiculous, as intended. It was never meant to be a serious response or an approach for serious debate, I thought that was obvious. But it's funny how many posters are vocal about how stupid it is to be hypothetical and rhetorical, while at the same time doing the exact same stuff themselves. Again, on all sides. Probably myself included.

Which posters have just reacted to your stupidity of making a hypothetical scenario and moaning over it, and been guilty of doing it themselves to other posters? Have I done it to anyone? Has @Regulus Arcturus Black done it to anyone? If not, I suggest you pipe down and stick to the debate. You are on the "far" end of the spectrum with such ideas and lines of attack. Going to "ridiculous" posts, which is a word you used and using them by design is attributed to poster so entrenched in their own views they will just literally, make shit up.

It was a simple question, really. Interesting that you're reacting to it so much though.

I reacted with one line. You and the other dream-makers are the ones who want to draw it out. For example, the below:

Hypotheticals, hey? "You can't say I probably do anything, that's hypothetical and stupid! You probably...."

Quite sure this poster is broken.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

@Skåre Willoch mate, will anything other than a win tonight be acceptable?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

@Skåre Willoch mate, will anything other than a win tonight be acceptable?

No.

Does that mean automatic sack? No.

 

[VP89]

No.

Does that mean automatic sack? No.

You do know there are a lot of posters who doubt Ole as the manager going forward but don't want the sack tomorrow, right?

 

[Zen86]

I reacted with one line. You and the other dream-makers are the ones who want to draw it out. For example, the below:

Quite sure this poster is broken.

Hm, so you don't think that if we somehow won the league this season, that the usual suspects would come out and say "yeah but our points total would've only been 3rd last season #noprogress"?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Which posters have just reacted to your stupidity of making a hypothetical scenario and moaning over it, and been guilty of doing it themselves to other posters? Have I done it to anyone? Has @Regulus Arcturus Black done it to anyone? If not, I suggest you pipe down and stick to the debate. You are on the "far" end of the spectrum with such ideas and lines of attack. Going to "ridiculous" posts, which is a word you used and using them by design is attributed to poster so entrenched in their own views they will just literally, make shit up.

Quite sure this poster is broken.

Yes. To everything.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

You do know there are a lot of posters who doubt Ole as the manager going forward but don't want the sack tomorrow, right?

Yes.

 

[VP89]

Yes. To everything.

Where have I or he done that?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You do know there are a lot of posters who doubt Ole as the manager going forward but don't want the sack tomorrow, right?

I’m one.

Do I need to state it on a weekly basis before every match? Ok, even if he loses tonight, he shouldn’t be sacked just yet.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No.

Good to know.

And vs. Leeds at home this weekend?

 

[VP89]

Hm, so you don't think that if we somehow won the league this season, that the usual suspects would come out and say "yeah but our points total would've only been 3rd last season #noprogress"?

Of course I don't think that, because the gripe a lot of fans had last year is that Ole had a head start on certain clubs who sacked their manager and started the process again, or had transfer bans (Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal), or were in their first years with the club (Leicester, Chelsea) and still struggled a lot. If he goes on to win the title this year ahead of all said clubs, quite obviously, that is outstanding and deserves praise.

I'm not sure how you can spin last year's results to try and act like those doubting Ole would still be upset if we won the league. You're being unnecessarily sensitive, we don't hate Ole or despise him. It's just that we doubt whether he is the man who can bring us silverware. So if he brings us silverware, we will obviously be happy

 

[VP89]

I’m one.

Do I need to state it on a weekly basis before every match? Ok, even if he loses tonight, he shouldn’t be sacked just yet.

Exactly, which points to the odd take in his reply. I don't think he knows the stance he's arguing against.

 

[justsomebloke]

At this point, I can’t see OGS leaving before end of season and I am someone who feels we have a good squad now and a better manager would give us a better chance to take us to the next level (Nagelsmann, Rose, Pochettino to name a few)

I don’t think we’re going to see any progression beyond new players coming in. I can’t see OGS and his coaches implementing nice attacking patterns like Guardiola or Klopp. It’s going to be more of the same where we Jekyll and Hyde through games in terms of quality. It’s going to be reliant on individual quality like Bruno (we are totally fecked if hes injured) and hoping teams have a go at us to create those counter-attack opportunities.

If he buys in January then like Bruno last year, I’ll give him a chance... Other than that I cant see anything other than at best same as last year coming in 3rd-4th, at worst 6th-7th. Even if we came in 3rd and long way off 1st and 2nd again, I’d be looking to change manager.

The only improvements we’re making under him are just the new players we have bought, but most teams improve like that anyway regardless of the manager. I get the feeling we’re just waiting for the millions to come available so he can buy the obvious good individual players, when there surely has to be managers out there who can implement a playing system that doesn’t involve having to spend millions on the obvious good individual players, and instead unfancied, unpolished gems who are 6/10 elsewhere end up looking 8/10 for us

You don't think Guardiola and Klopps teams are reliant on individual quality to play the way they play? Or that the pieces of brilliance we see from Fernandes and Rashford occur fairly frequently because we have a shape and style of play that enables them?

I've never understood this assumed opposition between organisation/shape and individual pieces of brilliance. I don't think it makes sense on any level. If your skilled players are frequently doing brilliant things, that normally means they are being employed in the right way, and in a system that provides scope for their skills. To intrepret that as a sign of the opposite makes no sense. They are not opposed things, but mutually dependent things. How do you even tell apart what's what, for most individual sequences of play? It's not generally coincidence when Bruno gets the ball in a good position and can play an incisive pass, or when Rashford makes a well-timed run, or when Greenwood cuts inside and gets a shot off - obviously, those involve both individual skill and tactical shape and patterns.

 

[Zen86]

Of course I don't think that, because the gripe a lot of fans had last year is that Ole had a head start on certain clubs who sacked their manager and started the process again, or had transfer bans (Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal), or were in their first years with the club (Leicester, Chelsea) and still struggled a lot. If he goes on to win the title this year ahead of all said clubs, quite obviously, that is outstanding and deserves praise.

I'm not sure how you can spin last year's results to try and act like those doubting Ole would still be upset if we won the league. You're being unnecessarily sensitive, we don't hate Ole or despise him. It's just that we doubt whether he is the man who can bring us silverware. So if he brings us silverware, we will obviously be happy

I'm not totally sure Ole's the man to bring us silverware. I doubt very many are. Everyone gets on their high horse in this thread and accuses the other "side" of being this and that.

That said, there is certainly an element of hatred towards the manager in here. I'm not saying you specifically, but the vitriol in this thread has at times, been awful.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Where have I or he done that?

You on the other hand no doubt already have your excuses at the ready for dropped points tonight and/or vs. Leeds, just as you did for us crashing out of the CL to a team managed for a shorter time than Ole and with a tenth of the budget.

Here you go.

 

[VP89]

Here you go.

No, I had meant if anyone had said anything hypothetical prior to your "ridiculous" post (again your words). Of course if you're going to come out with ridiculous accusations, you're going to get some back in fair dose.

 

[VP89]

I'm not totally sure Ole's the man to bring us silverware. I doubt very many are. Everyone gets on their high horse in this thread and accuses the other "side" of being this and that.

That said, there is certainly an element of hatred towards the manager in here. I'm not saying you specifically, but the vitriol in this thread has at times, been awful.

I don't see that many people hating Ole here, Regulus certainly isn't one of them. He separates art from artist, so it's clear he has nothing against Ole the legend, the man and the ex player. But he doubts him as a manager as many others do, so to suggest he'd whinge even if we win the league is certainly a wind up too far, in my opinion.

 

[Zen86]

I don't see that many people hating Ole here, Regulus certainly isn't one of them. He separates art from artist, so it's clear he has nothing against Ole the legend, the man and the ex player. But he doubts him as a manager as many others do, so to suggest he'd whinge even if we win the league is certainly a wind up too far, in my opinion.

He's quite crafty is Regulus. Quite jerky knees, too. I take him with a pinch of salt.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

No, I had meant if anyone had said anything hypothetical prior to your "ridiculous" post (again your words). Of course if you're going to come out with ridiculous accusations, you're going to get some back in fair dose.

https://www.redcafe.net/search/305824/?q=strawman&c[users]=Regulus+Arcturus+Black&o=relevance

Here is a compilation of @Regulus Arcturus Black calling calling out strawman arguments. Even using the word "ridiculous".


I'll bring you this prime example, for a better illustration of the hypocrisy. Using a strawman argument, only to get angry/call out the returning (non strawman) questions.


Saying I wouldn't extend Ole's contract:

No. I wouldn't extend his contract at this stage. At all.

Yes. Does that have anything to do with standards? I hated the phrase just as much when LVG and Mourinho were in charge. Entitlement at its worst.

Out of nowhere: Strawman/hypotheticals.

So Bayern should retain failing managers? Or maintain standards by fecking them of and getting competent ones in?

Answer:

No, they shouldn't.

But if they were failing for the better part of a decade, they'd be wise to try and build something lasting with a manager they believe in. At least give him some time, for example three full seasons. And back him properly every window for those three full seasons.

Should AC Milan fire every manager who doesn't win the league, the CL, or isn't top of the league after 8 games every season? Do you think they'd be back to european domination quicker this way? By having three managers every season?

Calling out non-existent strawman:

Strawman.

2 years he’s been in charge.

Check out how much AC Milan invest in their team compared to United before making such a wank argument.

EDIT: Added two quotes for better understanding of context.

 

[justsomebloke]

Of course I don't think that, because the gripe a lot of fans had last year is that Ole had a head start on certain clubs who sacked their manager and started the process again, or had transfer bans (Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal), or were in their first years with the club (Leicester, Chelsea) and still struggled a lot. If he goes on to win the title this year ahead of all said clubs, quite obviously, that is outstanding and deserves praise.

I'm not sure how you can spin last year's results to try and act like those doubting Ole would still be upset if we won the league. You're being unnecessarily sensitive, we don't hate Ole or despise him. It's just that we doubt whether he is the man who can bring us silverware. So if he brings us silverware, we will obviously be happy

Well, this leads us in the direction of a conclusion I am in any case suspecting, namely that the disagreement isn't actually so much about Ole as it is about what we expect from the team and how soon we expect it.

I don't think anybody can know right now if Ole's the man to bring us silverware. We won't know until he's got a team that's good enough to give him the tools. I don't think he has that yet, and that this is the main point. By which I don't mean "the main point in how we judge Ole", but The Main Point about where the club is. For now he seems to me a good choice to continue the job of getting there. If we're not getting there, or he can't get over the hump once we're there, then it's time for a change.

 

[Flexdegea]

This thread:

Ole in'ers : We want apples, but while we want that, maybe it's more realistic to expect plums this year. Not saying we can't possibly get apples, not saying we should celebrate plums, but we are not first in the apples line and that means plums are more realistic.

Ole out'ers: When the hell did we become a club that celebrated plums? Those plumlovers, huh! Should be expecting apples, but just loves plums. It pathetic. Plums are shit and should be considered bananas. We used to get apples all the time, and I don't care if others are in front of us in the apples line, we should be getting those apples right now.

Ole in'ers: Can you agree that Pep and Klopp has a better chance of getting apples this year? We want them too, but, you know, it wouldn't be a disaster to get plums this year if the apples are not up for grabs.

Ole out-ers: Apples is the only thing we should be eating. If Ole can get us apples right now, we should find someone who can.

Some Ole out-er: We should sack Ole, the banana provider, and get this young german dude. He has never even tasted Apples, but word is he can almost garantee us apples here in notime.

Some other Ole-Out'er: Nono! The right man to get us apples is this Argentinian fellow, who has made plums out of bananas, and then turned the plums back to bananas. I know he has never tasted apples either, but man....the plums he made..... Should be getting us apples in notime.

Ole in'ers: It takes time to make apples. It is not made over night.

Ole out'ers: The PE-teacher was lucky to turn us from bananas to plums. If he can't make us apples this year he never will.

Other Ole out'ers: Still no defined flavour, should be looking more like apples, but looks like a random fruit saved by occasional hints of apple to me.

Ole in'ers: There is a lot of apple in there, but we still need to add more flavour to get rid of the plumtaste and the occasional bananataste. A couple more drops of apple essence should do it.

...rinse - repeat

Didn't read

 

[troylocker]

At this point, I can’t see OGS leaving before end of season and I am someone who feels we have a good squad now and a better manager would give us a better chance to take us to the next level (Nagelsmann, Rose, Pochettino to name a few)

I don’t think we’re going to see any progression beyond new players coming in. I can’t see OGS and his coaches implementing nice attacking patterns like Guardiola or Klopp. It’s going to be more of the same where we Jekyll and Hyde through games in terms of quality. It’s going to be reliant on individual quality like Bruno (we are totally fecked if hes injured) and hoping teams have a go at us to create those counter-attack opportunities.

If he buys in January then like Bruno last year, I’ll give him a chance... Other than that I cant see anything other than at best same as last year coming in 3rd-4th, at worst 6th-7th. Even if we came in 3rd and long way off 1st and 2nd again, I’d be looking to change manager.

The only improvements we’re making under him are just the new players we have bought, but most teams improve like that anyway regardless of the manager. I get the feeling we’re just waiting for the millions to come available so he can buy the obvious good individual players, when there surely has to be managers out there who can implement a playing system that doesn’t involve having to spend millions on the obvious good individual players, and instead unfancied, unpolished gems who are 6/10 elsewhere end up looking 8/10 for us

I'm pretty sure that most of KDBs 20 assists and Salah's/Mane's 20+ goals a season is a result of patterns of play rather individual moments of brilliance. You can see clearly that it doesn't matter if Pep fields Jesus or Aguero, the goals just keeps coming due to the patterns of play.....
Take for example Peps 09/10 Barca: if it wasn't for players like Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Puyol, Alves, Marquez, Yaya, Ibrahimovic, Henry and so on, you could say that this team was just a well coached team with well defined patterns of play and not so reliant individual brillance from the world class players they had in every position on the pitch On the other hand I must admit you could see Peps hand in it. My point is that all brilliant teams need brilliant players.

Sorry about the sarcastic tone, but using the fact that we have players that perform well to undermine Ole's coaching just makes no sence.

 

[troylocker]

Didn't read

Damnit!

 

[PoTMS]

This thread:

Ole in'ers : We want apples, but while we want that, maybe it's more realistic to expect plums this year. Not saying we can't possibly get apples, not saying we should celebrate plums, but we are not first in the apples line and that means plums are more realistic.

Ole out'ers: When the hell did we become a club that celebrated plums? Those plumlovers, huh! Should be expecting apples, but just loves plums. It pathetic. Plums are shit and should be considered bananas. We used to get apples all the time, and I don't care if others are in front of us in the apples line, we should be getting those apples right now.

Ole in'ers: Can you agree that Pep and Klopp has a better chance of getting apples this year? We want them too, but, you know, it wouldn't be a disaster to get plums this year if the apples are not up for grabs.

Ole out-ers: Apples is the only thing we should be eating. If Ole can get us apples right now, we should find someone who can.

Some Ole out-er: We should sack Ole, the banana provider, and get this young german dude. He has never even tasted Apples, but word is he can almost garantee us apples here in notime.

Some other Ole-Out'er: Nono! The right man to get us apples is this Argentinian fellow, who has made plums out of bananas, and then turned the plums back to bananas. I know he has never tasted apples either, but man....the plums he made..... Should be getting us apples in notime.

Ole in'ers: It takes time to make apples. It is not made over night.

Ole out'ers: The PE-teacher was lucky to turn us from bananas to plums. If he can't make us apples this year he never will.

Other Ole out'ers: Still no defined flavour, should be looking more like apples, but looks like a random fruit saved by occasional hints of apple to me.

Ole in'ers: There is a lot of apple in there, but we still need to add more flavour to get rid of the plumtaste and the occasional bananataste. A couple more drops of apple essence should do it.

...rinse - repeat

What the feck are you on about, you plum?

 

[georgipep]

Of course I don't think that, because the gripe a lot of fans had last year is that Ole had a head start on certain clubs who sacked their manager and started the process again, or had transfer bans (Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal), or were in their first years with the club (Leicester, Chelsea) and still struggled a lot. If he goes on to win the title this year ahead of all said clubs, quite obviously, that is outstanding and deserves praise.

I'm not sure how you can spin last year's results to try and act like those doubting Ole would still be upset if we won the league. You're being unnecessarily sensitive, we don't hate Ole or despise him. It's just that we doubt whether he is the man who can bring us silverware. So if he brings us silverware, we will obviously be happy

I see your point but I doubt whether changing Ole will bring any improvement both in short term and especially in the long term for the club. I, personally, don't think it will and think the progress under Ole has been significant enough to continue supporting his work.

 

[R'hllor]

What the feck you gonna do if Ole gets a sack one day. You already took a dump on any other manager out there, that was mentioned on CAF, guess mentioning names of other managers, even in context that has nothing to do with Ole, you see it as an threat and attack on Ole. No wonder we have those posts that gave a vibe of " Oh yea, where are yours hipster managers now, Ole came and wiped the floor with them, MR you better hide because you are next woooo". Then again wouldnt be suprised that portion of that bench behaves towards next United manager in similar fashion as those bitter Jose acolytes towards Ole, even after everything, they are still fans of that cnut.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I read it, liked it and support the views! But it reminded me a lot of that scene in Friends' pilot episode

Agree with everything.

 

[VP89]

I see your point but I doubt whether changing Ole will bring any improvement both in short term and especially in the long term for the club. I, personally, don't think it will and think the progress under Ole has been significant enough to continue supporting his work.

Although I disagree, I suppose it's just a guessing game at this stage. We'll have to see how this season pans out and how he builds in future windows, should he get the chance to.

 

[troylocker]

What the feck are you on about, you plum?

Even though plums are not halfbad, I won't thank you and settle for it.
I'm working real hard to become an apple, even though I know it might take a little longer than desired....

 

[wolvored]

I wouldn't actually say 8 players in two seasons is a lot, especially considering only 3 of them are starting XI players, and also considering that this is a team that is rebuilding, not just tinkering or maintaining.

Also, I don't think Ole has said that Pellistri would be a starter? First I hear of it anyway. He's said that he needs game time (but not where), and that he's "more one for the future, as he's only 18". Did I miss something?

Yes when he was signing him he must have told his club as they wanted him back on loan if we wasnt going to put straight in first team. link

 

[justsomebloke]

Yes when he was signing him he must have told his club as they wanted him back on loan if we wasnt going to put straight in first team. link

Er, that link does not say at all that Ole has said he'd be "a starter". What it says is this:


Pellistri is going straight to the first team. He’s going to play,” Penarol secretary Evaristo Gonzalez said upon the transfer’s completion.

“During negotiations they asked me if I could guarantee that he was in the bubble because they need him.

“Then it will be a matter of whether the manager uses him.”