Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?


  • Total voters
    1,989

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
2,427
Location
The rainbow's end
There's nothing wrong with believing that Solskjaer should be given more leeway and time because he knows the club inside out and, after tossing about a billion Euros, we need to reevaluate our strategy and our priorities as a club.

There's nothing wrong with suggesting that a new ethos must be established and that the Solskjaer's sacking, midway through his first season, would mostly provide Woodward with yet another scapegoat while the main culprit for our current predicament will survive yet another debacle unscathed.

You can also point towards Greenwood, Williams, Tuanzebe and McTominay and say that Solskjaer's youth policy is already bearing fruit. Or that he found a tactical way not only to fit both Martial and Rashford in the starting lineup (something that wasn't a given under the previous regime who wanted to sell Martial) but helped them flourish too.

All of these are valid points.

There's no need to compare him with Ferguson, one of the greatest managers in the history of all sports. Not even Klopp and Guardiola would dare to accept this comparison. Ferguson possessed unparalleled managerial skills. Harvard has acquired his services for crying out loud, how many times have you seen this happening before? There's no point in saying that time was the only issue in his early years at United and use this as a stick to beat people with when the only thing that "time" proved was Ferguson's once in a lifetime brilliance. He succeeded because he was Ferguson, not because he was given time.

The comparisons with Klopp are also daft. Since he started managing, Klopp's faced a few bumps on the road but his career has mostly been on an upward spiral. He didn't spend a decade in the wilderness until he discovered an elusive winning formula. Neither did Pep or Zidane for that matter. All these managers are constantly evolving their tactics and their gameplan but they raised a lot of eyebrows very early in their careers. And whether you like or not, during the hard times, this counts and earns them credibility.

Solskjaer has done some good things and he's failed at others. People cry out about the state of the squad. It was a part of his plan to replace Lukaku with Martial in the starting lineup and promote Greenwood through the ranks as the back-up option. It was his decision not to sign a first choice right-winger because the "right candidate" wasn't available (Sancho). It was his decision to give McT the keys to the midfield (Herrera's place as a ball-winning midfielder) and please don't tell me that 50 odd million for Longstaff would have improved the quality of our football. And as Longstaff and Rice were the only targets he identified for the midfield, it was his choice to go into the season with only one creative midfielder in Pogba. Meanwhile, he got dicked by Woodward with Bruno but he also chose to indulge the latter's "protect the assets" policy by accepting new deals for Mata, Pereira, Jones, Young etc.

So, when Martial gets injured, he starts a positional merry-go-round in the attack which costs points and leads to dire performances. Without Pogba's contribution, we have the creativity of single cellular organisms more often than not. He constantly overloads the left side of the pitch and switch-ball to the right goes to players with pace and dynamism but very little creativity. But we're not allowed to point out these things because SAF needed time too and because it's a rebuilding process.

And herein lies the problem. Some people simply don't want Solskjaer to be held accountable for nothing that has to do with the actual job of a head coach. Last season was written off because it wasn't his team and his preseason. This season should also be written off because we're rebuilding. What about next season? Will it be alright to say something then? Or his young team will need at least 4-5 seasons before it matures? The problem with mentioning Klopp in these instances is that Solskjaer the head coach doesn't give you the impression of a manager who would lead this particular Liverpool side to back-to-back CL finals and 100 points consecutive seasons. Not in four but not even in eight seasons.

He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team. Should we not be concerned about it or we should we just wait for it to magically get solved by the end of the rebuild? I believe that the rather fluid state of the PL below Liverpool and City makes our situation look much better than it is. This was the case under LvG too. We believed that we were a few good signings away from getting right but it all fell apart and we remained stagnant while all the others around us progressed one way or the other. I still remember that when we faced Liverpool for the EL, they already seemed to be ahead of us in their respective rebuild. They were already showing more impetus, more fluidity and better synergies on the pitch than we could have hoped for. And that was just a few months after Klopp had taken over.

In the end, the fear for both sides of the spectrum is the same: The Glazers and Woodward's incompetence in dealing with the post-Ferguson era. Some believe that by searching backwards, towards our great past, and by looking inwards in terms of tactics/formations we will find the correct answers. Some others believe that the outlines of Solskjaer's restructuring plan can be followed with or without him at the helm and that we should look for the best available choices while we still can.
 

b82REZ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
5,437
Location
Manchester
There's nothing wrong with believing that Solskjaer should be given more leeway and time because he knows the club inside out and, after tossing about a billion Euros, we need to reevaluate our strategy and our priorities as a club.

There's nothing wrong with suggesting that a new ethos must be established and that the Solskjaer's sacking, midway through his first season, would mostly provide Woodward with yet another scapegoat while the main culprit for our current predicament will survive yet another debacle unscathed.

You can also point towards Greenwood, Williams, Tuanzebe and McTominay and say that Solskjaer's youth policy is already bearing fruit. Or that he found a tactical way not only to fit both Martial and Rashford in the starting lineup (something that wasn't a given under the previous regime who wanted to sell Martial) but helped them flourish too.

All of these are valid points.

There's no need to compare him with Ferguson, one of the greatest managers in the history of all sports. Not even Klopp and Guardiola would dare to accept this comparison. Ferguson possessed unparalleled managerial skills. Harvard has acquired his services for crying out loud, how many times have you seen this happening before? There's no point in saying that time was the only issue in his early years at United and use this as a stick to beat people with when the only thing that "time" proved was Ferguson's once in a lifetime brilliance. He succeeded because he was Ferguson, not because he was given time.

The comparisons with Klopp are also daft. Since he started managing, Klopp's faced a few bumps on the road but his career has mostly been on an upward spiral. He didn't spend a decade in the wilderness until he discovered an elusive winning formula. Neither did Pep or Zidane for that matter. All these managers are constantly evolving their tactics and their gameplan but they raised a lot of eyebrows very early in their careers. And whether you like or not, during the hard times, this counts and earns them credibility.

Solskjaer has done some good things and he's failed at others. People cry out about the state of the squad. It was a part of his plan to replace Lukaku with Martial in the starting lineup and promote Greenwood through the ranks as the back-up option. It was his decision not to sign a first choice right-winger because the "right candidate" wasn't available (Sancho). It was his decision to give McT the keys to the midfield (Herrera's place as a ball-winning midfielder) and please don't tell me that 50 odd million for Longstaff would have improved the quality of our football. And as Longstaff and Rice were the only targets he identified for the midfield, it was his choice to go into the season with only one creative midfielder in Pogba. Meanwhile, he got dicked by Woodward with Bruno but he also chose to indulge the latter's "protect the assets" policy by accepting new deals for Mata, Pereira, Jones, Young etc.

So, when Martial gets injured, he starts a positional merry-go-round in the attack which costs points and leads to dire performances. Without Pogba's contribution, we have the creativity of single cellular organisms more often than not. He constantly overloads the left side of the pitch and switch-ball to the right goes to players with pace and dynamism but very little creativity. But we're not allowed to point out these things because SAF needed time too and because it's a rebuilding process.

And herein lies the problem. Some people simply don't want Solskjaer to be held accountable for nothing that has to do with the actual job of a head coach. Last season was written off because it wasn't his team and his preseason. This season should also be written off because we're rebuilding. What about next season? Will it be alright to say something then? Or his young team will need at least 4-5 seasons before it matures? The problem with mentioning Klopp in these instances is that Solskjaer the head coach doesn't give you the impression of a manager who would lead this particular Liverpool side to back-to-back CL finals and 100 points consecutive seasons. Not in four but not even in eight seasons.

He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team. Should we not be concerned about it or we should we just wait for it to magically get solved by the end of the rebuild? I believe that the rather fluid state of the PL below Liverpool and City makes our situation look much better than it is. This was the case under LvG too. We believed that we were a few good signings away from getting right but it all fell apart and we remained stagnant while all the others around us progressed one way or the other. I still remember that when we faced Liverpool for the EL, they already seemed to be ahead of us in their respective rebuild. They were already showing more impetus, more fluidity and better synergies on the pitch than we could have hoped for. And that was just a few months after Klopp had taken over.

In the end, the fear for both sides of the spectrum is the same: The Glazers and Woodward's incompetence in dealing with the post-Ferguson era. Some believe that by searching backwards, towards our great past, and by looking inwards in terms of tactics/formations we will find the correct answers. Some others believe that the outlines of Solskjaer's restructuring plan can be followed with or without him at the helm and that we should look for the best available choices while we still can.
Best post in this thread. Bravo sir
 

Eriku

Full Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Messages
14,282
Location
Oslo, Norway
Every team in the so called top six besides probably Liverpool had injuries. That’s no excuse. Who was all giddy before the start of the season and saying they happy with the squad. When it was clear after selling our £75m striker and letting Herrera go that we were players short in vital positions.
You take all manager’s statements at face value? Ole has also been clear about needing several windows to address the squad composition. And no other team has lost their only creative midfielder for more or less the whole season thus far. Pogba and Martial weren’t just any injuries, they impacted our offensive play a lot. Our best fecking midfielder has been McSauce ffs, and we lost him as well. If you really think our squad situation is on par with other teams then I’m not sure what to say.
 

fallengt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
3,345
Depth down he definitely loves the club and isn't deluded (as much as I thought) but still I don't think he's good enough.
Willing the give him still the end of season to change mind my. Top 5 and cup finals are probably good enough for me since both LvG and Mourinho barely hit the spot in their first season.
 

Alabaster Codify7

New Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2015
Messages
6,553
Location
Wales
Depth down he definitely loves the club and isn't deluded (as much as I thought) but still I don't think he's good enough.
Willing the give him still the end of season to change mind my. Top 5 and cup finals are probably good enough for me since both LvG and Mourinho barely hit the spot in their first season.

If we sign 1-2 midfielders this window, play better attacking football, score more goals, reach a final or two (even if we fail) and finish 5th/6th - I would happily change my vote and give him one more shot at it next season.

If there's no improvement on the pitch and a 5th/6th finish (with or without new signings), I want him gone.
 

Class of 63

Full Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
7,760
Location
Back on the Naughty Step.
So you’re saying rival fans wouldn’t want us to keep Ole?
It's not as obvious as you'd think, If your stance is only idiotic/clueless United fans and rival fans/WUM's could possibly vote to keep Ole, then yes it is.

There's only one way to find out for sure, create a sub-thread and ask 'em, think you'll be surprised at some of the replies.
 

Lentwood

Full Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2015
Messages
3,115
Location
West Didsbury, Manchester
It's not as obvious as you'd think, If your stance is only idiotic/clueless United fans and rival fans/WUM's could possibly vote to keep Ole, then yes it is.

There's only one way to find out for sure, create a sub-thread and ask 'em, think you'll be surprised at some of the replies.
It's funny because I've been speaking to two non-United supporting mates today (Spurs and Derby) and both think that Ole is doing a great job, as do I.

Most of the serious criticism I see coming in for Ole is from our own fans and the fact his name is sung constantly on match days suggests it's not match-going fans criticising him either!
 

90 + 5min

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
579
Ths problem with your argument is it lacks rational thesis, your assimilating that Klopp's ability to cultivate his team to win has nothing to do with his capabilities as a manager but instead all to do with the allocation time. It's as if there's a distinction between Klopp being the world's best manager and time. "Time" as a commodity doesn't guarantee success, a capable manager does.

If the time conundrum was a conduit to automatically become successful then Eddie Howe and Sean Dyche would be playing in the champions league this season and competing for league by this logic. To discredit Klopp's previous accomplishments with Dortmund is unwise, why would our very own Sir Alex make the statement that Liverpool would win the league before Jürgen even managed a game in England ? I didn't hear Sir Alex make such comments since Solskjaer's been appointed ...
Nobody is discrediting Klopp. I said that time is important for managers to get things right. Like Klopp. Not saying Solskjaer will ever be better but time is important if you want to build something. Specially if something is really broken. If Solskjaer manages to put us back where we belong or not is written in the stars. But as long as there is progress I don’t see why we should change him. I don’t mind him getting sacked if we are going backwards. It has nothing to do with him being ex player.

Ofcourse you need a manager that knows what he is doing. That is capable to make a team stronger. At the same time the most important is to have right manager. Not always with best track records previous years. Klopp had done it great in Dortmund. And he kept on the same road at Liverpool but he got time. And in the end he is and was right for that club. They could have gone for ”better” managers but they took Klopp and it was right call looking at it now.

For me, Howe and Dyche are average managers. Time wouldn’t have helped them. And I already see Solskjaer as a better manager then those two. It shows in table and it shows the way teams play. And would I give them time? No. It was same with Moyes. Some managers just don’t look United. VanGaal on other hand would have been given more time if you ask me and Mourinho, as much as I like him, gave our club no option.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
1,870
My reasons for wanting Ole out is because he doesn't have the striking presence or charisma of a Manchester United coach. He doesn't strike me as someone who has his eyes set on being number one and dominant. There are also quite a number of coaches more tactically sound than he is.

That said he has definitely done some good things as manager and I'm not going to start repeating what has been said a thousand times. I just can't understand why some people will want him sacked now. It's not even like he has lost the dressing room. 5th in the league with lots of injuries and poor squad depth. I'd also say with the quality of our squad we're in our rightful position. Anyone asking for more should go look for Ferguson

I think Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans because his track record has nothing to show that he's the right man for the job and I don't think he is. But deciding to sack now would not make any sense to me at all. By the end of the season it will be clear to everyone whether he is the one to take us forward or we would be better off with another coach.
 

MackRobinson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,456
Location
Terminal D
Supports
Football
My reasons for wanting Ole out is because he doesn't have the striking presence or charisma of a Manchester United coach. He doesn't strike me as someone who has his eyes set on being number one and dominant. There are also quite a number of coaches more tactically sound than he is.

That said he has definitely done some good things as manager and I'm not going to start repeating what has been said a thousand times. I just can't understand why some people will want him sacked now. It's not even like he has lost the dressing room. 5th in the league with lots of injuries and poor squad depth. I'd also say with the quality of our squad we're in our rightful position. Anyone asking for more should go look for Ferguson

I think Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans because his track record has nothing to show that he's the right man for the job and I don't think he is. But deciding to sack now would not make any sense to me at all. By the end of the season it will be clear to everyone whether he is the one to take us forward or we would be better off with another coach.
I feel this is one of the more honest posts about why the majority of fans don't want Ole, yet a good number of those fans defended Mourinho until the bitter end. Personally, I don't ascribe to this line of thinking, as I think a person's demeanor is a poor indicator of success. However, at least you are honest and don't hypocritically judge managers based on two different sets of standards.
 

MonkeysMagic

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2015
Messages
639
Location
Euclidean space
Its tiresome to repeatedly hear the 'I believe Ole will come good' argument when it's based on pure fantasy and no tangible evidence after a year in charge. The equally tiresome 'he has made good transfer deals' is ridiculous beyond belief. So he spent £150m to purchase 2 well known players in the PL and took a punt on a Championship player...I could do that, and can anyone truly make an argument that these players have pushed on from the skill set they arrived at? I think we can almost emphatically claim a NO!

Managers are not judged by the purchases they make, its ludicrous to even contemplate that, they are judged on how they elevate the players to the next level what achieving a cohesive style of play which is rewarded by success. Many a good managers implement the first two but fail on the third. Point here being that not many fans can see Ole achieving any of these objectives based on his first 12 months in charge and if we are simply saying that he needs 'better' players which bring these characteristics with them, what so special about him?
 

Amarsdd

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
835
I feel this is one of the more honest posts about why the majority of fans don't want Ole, yet a good number of those fans defended Mourinho until the bitter end. Personally, I don't ascribe to this line of thinking, as I think a person's demeanor is a poor indicator of success. However, at least you are honest and don't hypocritically judge managers based on two different sets of standards.
I believe this plays some part in how the fans perceive him and how the media portrays him either consciously or subconsciously. I've seen this happen in the professional environment too many times for my liking to not believe it doesn't happen in football media and reporting.
 

Dve

Full Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Messages
894
My reasons for wanting Ole out is because he doesn't have the striking presence or charisma of a Manchester United coach. He doesn't strike me as someone who has his eyes set on being number one and dominant. There are also quite a number of coaches more tactically sound than he is.

That said he has definitely done some good things as manager and I'm not going to start repeating what has been said a thousand times. I just can't understand why some people will want him sacked now. It's not even like he has lost the dressing room. 5th in the league with lots of injuries and poor squad depth. I'd also say with the quality of our squad we're in our rightful position. Anyone asking for more should go look for Ferguson

I think Ole has been put on a very short leash by some fans because his track record has nothing to show that he's the right man for the job and I don't think he is. But deciding to sack now would not make any sense to me at all. By the end of the season it will be clear to everyone whether he is the one to take us forward or we would be better off with another coach.
Charisma comes with success. It really doesn´t matter what managers say in press conferences. When you are winning, everything the manager says is hailed (remember Ole´s first 3 months?). When your team is struggling, everything you say will be twisted and spun. That´s just the way it is.
 

Maluco

Full Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
1,130
I am still Ole out, because I don’t think is is a good enough coach. Simple as that, but I have to say, I am impressed with his cleaning out of the club.

Players are trying for him, atitudes seem to be better and everyone appears to be applying themselves. He has gotten rid of the players who were bringing a toxic atmosphere into the club and he has started to elevate some younger players into the first team.

If he moves on Pogba (attitude), Lingard and Jones (ability) by the summer and is able to add Fernandes, Maddison and an exciting attacker to the mix, I will applaud his interim period.

A new coach coming in would have a MUCH better platform to start things off with the clean out he is performing.

I am not happy with performances on the pitch and how the team plays, and crucially, I don’t think he has the nous to make them any better, but I am perfectly willing to sit through this if his final plan rids us of deadwood and bad examples and provides a nice clean slate for someone else going forward.
 

John Blund

Full Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
1,165
Still Ole in. If we clear out Matic, Jones, Rojo, and Young while bringing in players who improve us, we'll be looking for a better season next year. As long as we're still in it for CL next season and the players haven't turned on him, I'll be standing behind my manager.
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
5,206
Charisma comes with success. It really doesn´t matter what managers say in press conferences. When you are winning, everything the manager says is hailed (remember Ole´s first 3 months?). When your team is struggling, everything you say will be twisted and spun. That´s just the way it is.
Spot on. That I agree. You need success to get you credit. This is why he is facing all these issues. If he had won the CL or even got the final or the EL with Molde then no one will say much against him at least for now. The fact that he had not won anything of importance and his previous venture into the PL has ended in a huge disaster is why some of us have no faith in him. The same way we wanted Jose gone too when he threw his toys out.
Surely any true Manchester United fan would want the best manager available for United? The best players available for United? Or do you just accept anyone you fancy?
 

sunama

Baghdad Bob
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
14,944
Depth down he definitely loves the club and isn't deluded (as much as I thought) but still I don't think he's good enough.
Willing the give him still the end of season to change mind my. Top 5 and cup finals are probably good enough for me since both LvG and Mourinho barely hit the spot in their first season.
LVG got top 4 in his first season.
Jose won 2 trophies in his first season.
Ole not winning anything and not making top 4 should be sackworthy.
 

sunama

Baghdad Bob
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
14,944
He cleared much of the deadwood, he bought well, he promotes youngsters and he still can't match the results of Mourinho's season when the latter had sabotaged his own team.
You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.
 

Bilbo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
9,878
I am still Ole out, because I don’t think is is a good enough coach. Simple as that, but I have to say, I am impressed with his cleaning out of the club.

Players are trying for him, atitudes seem to be better and everyone appears to be applying themselves. He has gotten rid of the players who were bringing a toxic atmosphere into the club and he has started to elevate some younger players into the first team.

If he moves on Pogba (attitude), Lingard and Jones (ability) by the summer and is able to add Fernandes, Maddison and an exciting attacker to the mix, I will applaud his interim period.

A new coach coming in would have a MUCH better platform to start things off with the clean out he is performing.

I am not happy with performances on the pitch and how the team plays, and crucially, I don’t think he has the nous to make them any better, but I am perfectly willing to sit through this if his final plan rids us of deadwood and bad examples and provides a nice clean slate for someone else going forward.
I like this post. Fair and balanced in both sides of the equation.

His longetivity in this job is going to be decided largely around how well the signings we make this year perform. I think he knows what the team is lacking, and he now has to find the right players to fill those gaps.

If he nails it, then the team will perform better and results will be better and talk about his ability on the coaching field will die away. We are never going to play like City, and I dont want us to, but if he can fulfil his vision of fast and direct attacking football we can become a powerful proposition.
 

Bilbo

Full Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
9,878
You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.
Complete hogwash. Jose was flying this team into a mountain. A very steep downward curve that could have taken us back even further if wed let him completely loose with the chequebook. We haven't yet seen the full potential of what this team could be once Ole has his players, but we've seen enough to give him the opportunity
 

RedRoseTyke

Full Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2018
Messages
396
Complete hogwash. Jose was flying this team into a mountain. A very steep downward curve that could have taken us back even further if wed let him completely loose with the chequebook. We haven't yet seen the full potential of what this team could be once Ole has his players, but we've seen enough to give him the opportunity
Well said.I don't know if Ole will work out, but I do know that we have a more committed team, his summer signings have worked out much better than some of his predecessors' did, the team is playing with more resilience and some good youngsters are coming through.

That will do for me, at the moment. Then I want to see a good summer window with decent signings, more dead wood gone and a positive start to 2020-2021.

You don't build for the future by continuously sacking managers.
 

fallengt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
3,345
LVG got top 4 in his first season.
Jose won 2 trophies in his first season.
Ole not winning anything and not making top 4 should be sackworthy.
They are experienced managers. I don't think Ole is good enough either.. but im giving him benefit of the doubt.
Top 5 and cup finals would be an okay achievement in his first full season. His achievements not United's, mind.

Such a shame though, everyone is so inconsistent this season and we should be comfortably shitting on that 4th place right now.
 

Dve

Full Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Messages
894
Spot on. That I agree. You need success to get you credit. This is why he is facing all these issues. If he had won the CL or even got the final or the EL with Molde then no one will say much against him at least for now. The fact that he had not won anything of importance and his previous venture into the PL has ended in a huge disaster is why some of us have no faith in him. The same way we wanted Jose gone too when he threw his toys out.
Surely any true Manchester United fan would want the best manager available for United? The best players available for United? Or do you just accept anyone you fancy?
Well, personally I would like to see what he can do after making 2-3 new signing, as the current squad is not good enough for competing with the likes of Liverpool and City. Next season, all the youngster will be one year older and he will by then, also had more time to work with the group.

You could argue that United this season have been bad at breaking down teams that are sitting deep, and I support that view. In contrast, what has been a trademark of Guiardola´s teams (all of them, Barcelona, Bayern M and City), is now the offensive players are set up to make perfectly timed runs into the box, which is almost impossible to defend against. So why is not Ole able to do the same?

I think it´s a bit stupid to suggest that Ole does not understand the principles of Pep´s tactics - the manager he has studied more than anyone (bare Fergie, of course). Ole has spend his whole life studying tactics - taking notes as a players, studying other managers (Guardiola, especially), reading up on all the theory. When people suggest he´s tactically inept, I believe that´s just simply wrong. Probably, he´s one the most knowledgeable managers there is. But remember what Ole said was his biggest mistake at Cardiff: He tried to implement too much at the same time, and the players where not able to coop with all the changes. So, instead Ole has a different approach this time - he´s trying to perfecting one thing at the time.

What we know about Guardiola, is that he´s spending hour after hours after hours on the training ground, working on offensive patterns: when to start the run, where to run, simultaneous movements etc. It´s not something you´ll be able to implement into your time during a weekend.

So were is the progress then? What the hell has he been working on when United still are miles away from City when it comes to breaking down teams (although, we may have gotten a bit better lately)?

1. The counter attack. Yeah, some would say, park the bus and hit teams on the break, that all he can do. But playing on the break does not mean parking the bus. After the City game Rashford was criticised for not helping out in the defence. Well, he´s not supposed to. United´s offensive players are set up to be ready for the break - they are not suppose to help out in defence. The problem earlier this season, however, was to finding the balance between countering and keeping the ball when there were less chances to succeed with passes up the field. In some games, it just looked like aimless long balls up field which only resulted in United losing the ball. We´ve have become better at finding the balance, which has contributed to United having more possession against weaker teams.

2. Playing out from the back. We have become better at this as well. Instead of seeing the ball being played back and forth between the central defenders and the side backs (especially with Shaw in the team...), we have become braver on the ball and better abled to use it more central in the field (also thanks to Fred having stepped up his game). This has also contributed to us having more possession.

So what´s next then?

3. Breaking down teams that are sitting deep. That´s obviously work in progress, but should we not wait and see what can be done?

So, for me, it´s step by step. And when the players are so vocal in their support of the manager, is it not worth the risk of letting Ole having a full season and perhaps getting a few signings that will make his work easier?

(and please forgive this long answer, I really do hate long post myself).
 
Last edited:

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2013
Messages
2,427
Location
The rainbow's end
You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.
My post was a summarization of points made by both sides of the argument more than anything else because i felt that in the last few pages we had fallen back to recycling the same old silliness: Things like "If he gets time and time only he'll become as good as Klopp" when Klopp probably the best manager of his generation or that "it's pure nepotism that he's still in the job or that he got it in the first place" when retired players make the 99% of all new managers.

I've posted sever times on the subject and i've never hidden where i stand: I don't think he's good enough on the tactical field. I also believe that he's very idealistic for his own good. This creates problems for him and the side. For example, i believe his decision to marginalize Lukaku (because he did that) was correct. Lukaku (nothing personal against the lad) was a signing made with great money that served Mourinho's immediate need for a goal-scorer and a presence in the box but it was not in the team's best interests. It pushed one of United's greatest assets, Rashford, into a supportive role out-wide and another, Martial, towards the exit. Solskjaer thought what was best for the club. But, as we all know, Martial has weaknesses as well as strengths in his game. He doesn't have the intensity to constantly harass the opposition centre-halves and he often has periods, even within a game, when he goes missing. Solskjaer and his staff had to be somewhat ready for this. Instead, when Martial is not at his best, we look more static than statues. And when he got injured, the initial reaction with Rashford up-front, James on the left and Pereira as a right-winger offered us absolutely nothing. James lost any kind of form he had, Pereira was hopeless and Rashford looked like a fish out of the water. Now, whether some want to admit it or not, these things are what managers are being paid millions to solve. So, there's that.

It creates a paradox in which you can argue he's getting the big picture right but he's failing in many (not all) of the nuances and the particularities that will help his vision materialize. The results are no better than Mourinho's last season, that's true. But he also brought hope and he refreshed the mood of the fanbase. He promised a fresh start. The objection i stated in my previous post is that for a club of United's stature, promise alone isn't enough. The promise must be fulfilled. Whether he will achieve this or not, it remains to be seen. I don't think he will but it's not a crime to think that he may as well pull this off in the end.
 

Foxbatt

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
5,206
Well, personally I would like to see what he can do after making 2-3 new signing, as the current squad is not good enough for competing with the likes of Liverpool and City. Next season, all the youngster will be one year older and he will by then, also had more time to work with the group.

You could argue that United this season have been bad at breaking down teams that are sitting deep, and I support that view. In contrast, what has been a trademark of Guiardola´s teams (all of them, Barcelona, Bayern M and City), is now the offensive players are set up to make perfectly timed runs into the box, which is almost impossible to defend against. So why is not Ole able to do the same?

I think it´s a bit stupid to suggest that Ole does not understand the principles of Pep´s tactics - the manager he has studied more than anyone (bare Fergie, of course). Ole has spend his whole life studying tactics - taking notes as a players, studying other managers (Guardiola, especially), reading up on all the theory. When people suggest he´s tactically inept, I believe that´s just simply wrong. Probably, he´s one the most knowledgeable managers there is. But remember what Ole said was his biggest mistake at Cardiff: He tried to implement too much at the same time, and the players where not able to coop with all the changes. So, instead Ole has a different approach this time - he´s trying to perfecting one thing at the time.

What we know about Guardiola, is that he´s spending hour after hours after hours on the training ground, working on offensive patterns: when to start the run, where to run, simultaneous movements etc. It´s not something you´ll be able to implement into your time during a weekend.

So were is the progress then? What the hell has he been working on when United still are miles away from City when it comes to breaking down teams (although, we may have gotten a bit better lately)?

1. The counter attack. Yeah, some would say, park the bus and hit teams on the break, that all he can do. But playing on the break does not mean parking the bus. After the City game Rashford was criticised for not helping out in the defence. Well, he´s not supposed to. United´s offensive players are set up to be ready for the break - they are not suppose to help out in defence. The problem earlier this season, however, was to finding the balance between countering and keeping the ball when there were less chances to succeed with passes up the field. In some games, it just looked like aimless long balls up field which only resulted in United losing the ball. We´ve have become better at finding the balance, which has contributed to United having more possession against weaker teams.

2. Playing out from the back. We have become better at this as well. Instead of seeing the ball being played back and forth between the central defenders and the side backs (especially with Shaw in the team...), we have become braver on the ball and better abled to use it more central in the field (also thanks to Fred having stepped up his game). This has also contributed to us having more possession.

So what´s next then?

3. Breaking down teams that are sitting deep. That´s obviously work in progress, but should we not wait and see what can be done?

So, for me, it´s step by step. And when the players are so vocal in their support of the manager, is it not worth the risk of letting Ole having a full season and perhaps getting a few signings that will make his work easier?

(and please forgive this long answer, I really do hate long post myself).

Why do you keep saying Ole studied Pep? What Pep teaches is what Cruijff taught him. It is fairly basic too. Right space right time. But from all what I have seen of Ole he does not even think like that or any of his teams play like that. He is completely different from what Pep coaches. He is more Jose without the nastiness of Jose. His teams play only counter attacking football and the same with Molde too.
 

MackRobinson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,456
Location
Terminal D
Supports
Football
I believe this plays some part in how the fans perceive him and how the media portrays him either consciously or subconsciously. I've seen this happen in the professional environment too many times for my liking to not believe it doesn't happen in football media and reporting.
Agreed. That a lot of people have an arbitrary, often media-driven, image of what a "leader" is supposed to look like and when someone does fit this picture they use confirmation bias to discredit them. A while ago I used to have an old co-worker, who I hated, who intense dislike for our manager who was a VP. I'm convinced it was b/c it was a nerdy, frail-looking woman and he had issues with a woman as his boss. What's worse is she was probably the best VP in company performance-wise and credential wise (Ivy league MBA). He couldn't fathom that the next manager we had would likely be far worse.
 

MackRobinson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,456
Location
Terminal D
Supports
Football
Wait so a managers previous record has nothing to do with how much leway they should be given?

Terrible post.
No, it shouldn't. You are essentially saying United's expectations should rise and fall with the manager rather than circumstance. That's silly.
 

Random Task

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
20,321
Location
Chester
Complete hogwash. Jose was flying this team into a mountain. A very steep downward curve that could have taken us back even further if wed let him completely loose with the chequebook. We haven't yet seen the full potential of what this team could be once Ole has his players, but we've seen enough to give him the opportunity
See, I do agree with you, but the same logic could be applied to any manager in his position.

If Ole is competent enough to achieve something with a fully functioning squad of players, then it stands to reason that a significantly more qualified coach will achieve even more.
 

Pantscat

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Messages
9
I voted 'keep' originally as I thought he might come good.

I'm less confident than I was then, but I still think there is a chance this could come good, with a few better players in midfield, an extra quality attacker (particularly a wide attacker) and maybe a left-back. It will take time, no matter who the manager is, and getting rid of managers is no guarantee of success (look at Arsenal and Spurs).
 

mancan92

Full Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
7,956
Location
Loughborough university
Nobody is discrediting Klopp. I said that time is important for managers to get things right. Like Klopp. Not saying Solskjaer will ever be better but time is important if you want to build something. Specially if something is really broken. If Solskjaer manages to put us back where we belong or not is written in the stars. But as long as there is progress I don’t see why we should change him. I don’t mind him getting sacked if we are going backwards. It has nothing to do with him being ex player.

Ofcourse you need a manager that knows what he is doing. That is capable to make a team stronger. At the same time the most important is to have right manager. Not always with best track records previous years. Klopp had done it great in Dortmund. And he kept on the same road at Liverpool but he got time. And in the end he is and was right for that club. They could have gone for ”better” managers but they took Klopp and it was right call looking at it now.

For me, Howe and Dyche are average managers. Time wouldn’t have helped them. And I already see Solskjaer as a better manager then those two. It shows in table and it shows the way teams play. And would I give them time? No. It was same with Moyes. Some managers just don’t look United. VanGaal on other hand would have been given more time if you ask me and Mourinho, as much as I like him, gave our club no option.
Wait what has ole shown in the past to be better than those managers? We have a clear example of ole at Cardiff where he wasn't able to do what those two managers have done.
 

MackRobinson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,456
Location
Terminal D
Supports
Football
No I'm saying that a manager who has shown to do great things will always be given more leway than a manager who hasn't. Simple logic.
And I'm saying they shouldn't. It's actually faulty logic given the wildly different circumstances managers find themselves in from team to team.
 

Popcorn

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 20, 2016
Messages
74
I am starting to be more convinced by the give Ole more time argument. However, it still feels like giving someone the job of headteacher of a school because they were a good student.

Mostly seems to be “let him buy some new players and then see how he does”, so we better get on and do that then.
 

Aresma7

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
113
You made many points and this point alone should tell us if Ole is good enough or not.
Jose wanted to get sacked and reached a point where he didn't care.
Ole, at his very best, is worse than Jose's car crash of a season.
Yeah, look what happened when he does care. The winning streak Spurs has been on lately just proves we were stupid to sack one of the most finished managers in the game today.
 

RUCK4444

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
1,914
Location
FIFA Headquarters
And I'm saying they shouldn't. It's actually faulty logic given the wildly different circumstances managers find themselves in from team to team.
This. People treat managers like their situation is identical.
Taking over City’s squad for example is a far better starting point than taking over United’s last season.

There are a huge amount of variables; current squad quality, how much backing the owners provide (££££),
do they have the players to implement the managers philosophy quickly, do they need to sell before being able to buy. Etc etc

Every manager has the same set of issues to deal with but importantly it’s a lot harder at some clubs than others.

Therefore they all have wildly varying starting points in their job, this is something that is often overlooked when people start labelling ‘this manager shite’ because he needs more than 1 transfer window and ‘that manager is great’ because he’s implemented his style so quickly.
 

jem

Full Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,612
Location
Toronto
It's funny because I've been speaking to two non-United supporting mates today (Spurs and Derby) and both think that Ole is doing a great job, as do I.

Most of the serious criticism I see coming in for Ole is from our own fans and the fact his name is sung constantly on match days suggests it's not match-going fans criticising him either!
I appreciate your positive outlook (I'm not being sarcastic,) but I have to ask how you determine that Ole is doing a great job. I can somewhat understand the argument for giving him more time, but I really can't see how he is doing a great job.
 

MackRobinson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2017
Messages
2,456
Location
Terminal D
Supports
Football
How is it faulty logic? If pep comes in and gets 4th in the first year. Should city sack him? The same way the do for other managers?
Like I said, each manager comes into a new job with a widely different set of circumstances that his previous jobs, whether they be successes of failures. By giving leeway to a manager with a better CV, you are essentially facilitating confirmation bias and not judging the manager by his performance in his current job, which is a recipe for disaster.

Usually, inexperience is given more leeway as the individual needs time to grow and develop, but for some reason, those who are Ole out seem to think the opposite. Given his experience, I'm more bullish on Ole adapting/improving than a manager like Mourinho. Old dog, same tricks.

For Pep, if he failed expectations given the same set of circumstances of other managers then, of course, he should be fired. But like I the set of circumstances cannot be ignored. What was the previous finish? What players were lost/gained? I think fans tend to think about football management in very simplistic, binary terms because it's easier to digest, but nothing I've seen suggested managers are good and bad in a vacuum. Circumstance matters since squads gel, young players progress, injuries happen, transfers happen, etc.

I think Ole is doing an alright job and he could be better, but this hyperbole of calling him the worst manager in the league and tactically naive is a bit over the top. It completely ignores circumstances and judges him by a hypocritical standard.