Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[crossy1686]

I think some people in here think changing a manager is like changing a lightbulb. Just swap the old one out and everything carries on the same or better.

Imagine sacking Ole at the end of the season, having a new manager come in and completely change the back room staff, have to spend months working on changing the style of play, only to realise he doesn't have the players to do it. Then watching some of the players we've currently got completely drop off a cliff and be terrible again.

Cue talks of a rebuild needed and all the youth prospects not being good enough to play for United, or they can only play one way etc. Loads of threads on here about giving the manager time and a selection of the Cafe stating that the manager doesn't have the CV to manage United or is "finished".

All this with no guarantee the next manager will take any notice of the youth academy which seems to be back in full swing. A return of big money signings for players who shouldn't be playing for United, and much like the manager are only in it for their CV, bank balance and new branded clothing line.

Seriously, be careful what you wish for. Look at Tottenham and Arsenal, they're in big trouble. Klopp and Pochettino got 5 years at their clubs to build something and after Ole's first full season in charge there's still people that want him sacked.

I can only presume they're not United fans at this point.

 

[Keefy18]

There were 2 kinds of Ole-out fans - the ones who actually made decent points for getting rid of him (even if I didnt agree with them) - and then the most vocal ones who called him the worst manager in the league, clueless, idiot etc....

Absolutely this.

The former whilst they made their points eloquently, still leaned towards incredibly impatience. Especially considering the situation he walked into and regardless of the managers name they'd need time.

The latter sadly seemed to be the bigger contingent and were insufferable.

 

[crossy1686]

Absolutely this.

The former whilst they made their points eloquently, still leaned towards incredibly impatience. Especially considering the situation he walked into and regardless of the managers name they'd need time.

The latter sadly seemed to be the bigger contingent and were insufferable.

I think the latter group are solely emotional supporters who allow jealously to dictate their actions. They look over at City and Liverpool, read the Mirror or watch Sky sports fawning over Pep and Klopp, then go and beat up their wives or dog and blame it on Solskjaer.

Classic "look what you made me do!" stuff.

 

[Keefy18]

I think the latter group are solely emotional supporters who allow jealously to dictate their actions. They look over at City and Liverpool, read the Mirror or watch Sky sports fawning over Pep and Klopp, then go and beat up their wives or dog and blame it on Solskjaer.

Classic "look what you made me do!" stuff.

I do agree social media / media in general sways many supporters too easily. Not many folks read, *analyze* and let the article process before deciding on a logical thought process. I think in general society is quite binary as well. You have to be completely all of one thing or the other, a left wing loon or right wing anarchist.

In this instance, it's completely Ole Out with intense anger or the other side with Ole's a club man and will win leagues and CL with ease.

You had folks like myself in the middle somewhere and happy with top 4 as a starting point and hell, even if we don't get it I'd still be OK with him getting a bit more time cause he is showing some forward traction. When you dare suggest this as reasonable to the out brigade its lambs to the slaughter stuff with the typical "bUT we'RE uNITAH anD sHoUlD bE alWaYs wInnING".

We've literally 2 hugely successful managers in our history and another reasonably so (Magnall, going all the way back to early 1900's and pre WW1!).

 

[11101]

He's following the SAF mould he knows so well. Hes working towards having us play in a very similar manner and like SAF it has been a difficult first few months.

I stand by saying that hes not a Mourinho style manager who can draw wins out of anything. He, like SAF in the early days, struggled with that. Ferguson had a style he wanted to play and it took a few years to get there, and he wasnt very good until he got the players to do that. Fergsuon was not great because he adapted his style to fit his players, he was great because he got his players to adapt to his style. Ole is going the same way. Cantona was the final piece of the puzzle back then, Bruno could be it now.

If it works, he could be here for a very long time. If not, he will at least leave us in a better position than when he started.

 

[anant]

Remember when people were asking which club in PL or championship would be willing to hire Ole. This despite him having beaten Poch, Tuchel, Sarri, Lampard, Emery and drawn with Klopp wth a half fit side in his first 8 odd months.

The impatience among ours fans has often proven to be unjustified and I think this should serve as a good example that people should not write someone so soon without proper evidence

 

[Revan]

Why would you think that? Zidane has an absolutely and astonishingly good record at Real Madrid, but (and I do follow Real Madrid quite closely), I think there's enough reason to believe he would not have had this impact at United. If you're going only by trophy haul, he'd be ideal, but there is a lot more we should be considering.

Cause I think he is the best manager in the world. Second time that Madrid are shit, he comes in, and they immediately became the best team in the world. Maybe he was lucky the first time (or maybe it was all Ronaldo) but it happened again.

 

[Revan]

It shouldn't depend on what happens between now and the end of the season at all.

We can't keep changing the managerial setup every 18months to 2 years.

It's not healthy for stability at all, we eventually have to fully ride out a term with a manager showing promise. It may well crescendo and dip off to nothing in another 18-2 years but he took over a team in the dumps, completely in the s*itter!!

He cleared out a huge chunk of deadwood, albeit there is still more to remove (that should tell you the size of the job at hand). Whilst doing so he has integrated Williams and Greenwood as squad options and they are both showing real promise. He's improved startling XI players across the club from AWB, Shaw, Matic, McTominay, Fred, Bruno, Pogba, Rashford and Martial.

His transfers are by an large on point.

Even when results weren't going our way from Aug to Jan we still played some great football, the signs were there but folks were too demanding of instant gratification. Dropping points whilst handling the situation he took on was completely inevitable.

If we finished 5th and win no cups, he should still stay and get another summer of support and if next season ends up similar then it'd be fair to say you've had a fair go Ole but we need to step to the next level and move on.

I disagree. It could well be just a purple patch in which case it would be hard to see this progress we are talking (LVG once won 6 matches in a row in the league). There is still a quite realistic scenario that we might end with the lowest points in post-SAF era. If that happens, then the progress would be an illusion.

I judge Ole same as I would have done any other manager. I don’t care that he once was great for us, at the end, only his managerial time here matters for him as manager.

 

[tombombadil]

Wait till you find out the things I've jinxed.

I started actively watching United matches in 2013-2014 season and we immediately went to shit. The first match I watched that season was vs city and we lost 4-1. When we signed Di Maria, my nickname became Di Maria because I got a jersey with his name on it and immediately, Di maria went to shits.

When we got second position under Jose, I backed him to win the league the next season but he instead got the sack.

I predicted Croatia to win the world cup because you don't go through all that and bottle it in the final.. right???

When Ole got the interim job, I wasn't convinced he could get us on a bounce but he did. When I started to scream Ole at the wheel after the paris game, we went to shit.
Then, in december I predicted that Ole would get the sack and we would bring in Poch to take his place. Instead, Poch got the sack and we brought in Bruno and now, Ole's position looks more secure than ever.

Now, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of Ole at the wheel again. Also, I think we will get champions league spot and win the europa this season.

Please support Liverpool and Manchester City. Please. Pretty please.

 

[Keefy18]

I disagree. It could well be just a purple patch in which case it would be hard to see this progress we are talking (LVG once won 6 matches in a row in the league). There is still a quite realistic scenario that we might end with the lowest points in post-SAF era. If that happens, then the progress would be an illusion.

I judge Ole same as I would have done any other manager. I don’t care that he once was great for us, at the end, only his managerial time here matters for him as manager.

I don't necessarily disagree, it could turn out to be a purple patch but I am quite doubtful it will be.

I'm not saying Ole is certain to march to a league title, although I do believe he can do, its possible.

Thing for me though is, bar the odd random game under LVG we never once showed this level of playing style with him whilst picking up results as well and with so many players in great form. The 6 game win streak to my mind doesn't stand out as being anything akin to what we are currently seeking, is it to yours? Just a reminder of it, here's a link to the results

(http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/res...nent_nationality=&Home_Away_neutral=&Manager= )

I liked LVG as well, just never fully enjoyed the football being played even when results were good. This is a whole different experience right now with arguably every player playing for the manager and fighting for a spot and a front line looking at its best since the days of Ronaldo, Tevez & Rooney.

 

[Leftback99]

Remember when people were asking which club in PL or championship would be willing to hire Ole. This despite him having beaten Poch, Tuchel, Sarri, Lampard, Emery and drawn with Klopp wth a half fit side in his first 8 odd months.

The impatience among ours fans has often proven to be unjustified and I think this should serve as a good example that people should not write someone so soon without proper evidence

They maybe still wouldn't but it's (and always was) irrelevant, he's been the right manager for what we needed after Mourinho.

 

[Revan]

I don't necessarily disagree, it could turn out to be a purple patch but I am quite doubtful it will be.

I'm not saying Ole is certain to march to a league title, although I do believe he can do, its possible.

Thing for me though is, bar the odd random game under LVG we never once showed this level of playing style with him whilst picking up results as well and with so many players in great form. The 6 game win streak to my mind doesn't stand out as being anything akin to what we are currently seeking, is it to yours? Just a reminder of it, here's a link to the results

(http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/res...nent_nationality=&Home_Away_neutral=&Manager= )

I liked LVG as well, just never fully enjoyed the football being played even when results were good. This is a whole different experience right now with arguably every player playing for the manager and fighting for a spot and a front line looking at its best since the days of Ronaldo, Tevez & Rooney.

I’ll admit, I am liking what I am seeing. I also believe (or hope) that it is not just a purple patch.

Saying that, I probably felt the same in some circumstances under LVG and Mourinho. In that 6 match streak, only 2 were hard victories, we were relatively comfortable on the other matches. Later in that season we also demolished City, defeated Liverpool in their stadium and defeated Spurs in a series of 4 wins in a row or so. We were looking excellent.

My point is, it is fine to judge Ole based on progress. But that should be at the end of the season and consider the entire season, not on what might well be a purple patch. If at the end of the season we don’t win Europa, and we finish outside of UCL zone (either with the lowest points since SAF era, or at best case in bottom 3), then it would be hard to really quantify the success. It would be just projecting a purple patch over the entire season (when we were bad) and seeing imaginary success.

So the best to do IMO is to wait and see. We are playing really well, things are looking good, let’s hope it is not another false dawn.

 

[RiqCantona]

I was a bit circumspect at the beginning of his term. But boy has he convinced me!

What Ole has done remarkably well is the following:
- Bring back positivity and belief which went missing
- Playing fast and attacking football with a very strong defence.
- Setting ground rules and expecting a high standard & work rate for all players to adhere to
- Getting it right regarding transfers (E.g. Maguire and Bruno)
- Focus on youth development
- Getting a good string of results

I think Ole has set us straight and on the right track to recovery. He understands United through and through. He knows what it means to be Manchester United and what philosophy the club has followed throughout its history. None of the other managers (or Woodward) had this - they all wanted to mould United to their own style and philosophy. This, philosophically, has been our mistake. We tried to be something we were not and Ole is trying to get us to where we belong.
.
The only thing missing are the trophies which I am sure will come soon enough. I feel a strong positive vibe!

 

[Striker10]

Ole has the job. There is nothing more to add.

 

[Keefy18]

I’ll admit, I am liking what I am seeing. I also believe (or hope) that it is not just a purple patch.

Saying that, I probably felt the same in some circumstances under LVG and Mourinho. In that 6 match streak, only 2 were hard victories, we were relatively comfortable on the other matches. Later in that season we also demolished City, defeated Liverpool in their stadium and defeated Spurs in a series of 4 wins in a row or so. We were looking excellent.

Apologies, there were 2 six game win streaks and the 2nd was more memorable as you say with wins against some great sides. I don't know what it is but things do feel different now in this run, you can feel a sense of confidence and belief emanating from the players I think. It's hard to explain but it doesn't quite feel the same to me as it did with LVG and as I say I liked the man and felt he was even wrongly sacked in 2016.

My point is, it is fine to judge Ole based on progress. But that should be at the end of the season and consider the entire season, not on what might well be a purple patch. If at the end of the season we don’t win Europa, and we finish outside of UCL zone (either with the lowest points since SAF era, or at best case in bottom 3), then it would be hard to really quantify the success. It would be just projecting a purple patch over the entire season (when we were bad) and seeing imaginary success.

I do agree its best always to judge at the end of it all and make a better informed decision, but many supporters don't react that way sadly and want instant sackings & hires without considering the bigger picture like that.

And speaking of bigger picture, whilst in the scenario you paint it would not "quantify a success", however would it be sensible to sack Ole and starting afresh again? I think that would be very damaging with many players unhappy and likely to not play as well as they have recently.

You'd be back into players wondering where their long term future lies, are they to be sold or what? Adapting to new ideals and playing styles and a huge financial outlay again and basically a different team rebuild again.

If we fail to qualify for CL I'll be disappointed but would of seen enough positive signs to give him next season still to my mind.

 

[SAFMUTD]

You don't see a playing style ? The fast counter-attacking football and all the interchanges and passing around the box when we have the ball.

We are putting the teams to sword at the moment and we are scoring sublime goals from open play. What do you expect ?

I'm enjoying watching us at the moment. We are better on the eyes then City or Liverpool.

Maybe you just don't like our style !

You do know you conviently quoted a post I wrote before the break ended right?

 

[Rob Corona]

Yet we still have nothing to show apart from a good run for a dozen or so games.

Yes, we are looking better, significantly so since the arrival of Fernandes but to act as if you're some sort of nostradamus because you had faith is daft.

There was no rational reason to keep Ole around Xmas time beyond intangible things like faith and patience.

I have always hoped the man would prove me wrong and at the moment he seems to be doing a cracking job at it, but let's wait until the season is over before we declare him or the season a success. All it takes is an injury to Bruno and we could well find ourselves serving up performances like we did in October.

I still cannot back him if we fail to get CL, that is my minimum expectation.

OK, So Ole is a doing a cracking job at the moment, but if Bruno get injured then its Ole out? Wow.

 

[midnightmare]

Cause I think he is the best manager in the world. Second time that Madrid are shit, he comes in, and they immediately became the best team in the world. Maybe he was lucky the first time (or maybe it was all Ronaldo) but it happened again.

Zidane has an amazing trophy haul and it would be foolish to call him simply lucky. Same for crediting it to Ronaldo. He’s a fantastic man manager and knows how to set the team up. But he’s not flawless and benefits quite massively from “knowing what Real Madrid is all about”.

Apart from all else though, my biggest concern for Real Madrid today is the biggest reason I feel he’d not have been the right guy for United when we appointed Ole viz. rebuilding. Madrid right now are still heavily reliant on the same (and now very creaky) core that he inherited when he first took over.

There have been a lot of purchases and there were also high hopes from the academy but look at the first choice 11 and it’s just 3 players that differ from the first-choice 11 of his first CL winning squad. Those would be the replacements for Keylor, Cristiano and Bale. As evolution goes, that’s shocking. This when the club isn’t blind to the need for a rebuild and has invested heavily in the transfer market. It’s hard to even highlight a successful Zidane transfer! Hazard, maybe?

It is very easy to just look at the trophy haul and cream oneself over it. Zidane has undoubtedly mastered the art of squeezing the most out of his resources and is an absolute genius in how he goes about this, specially in the CL. But there’s enough there to question whether he’d be able to do this elsewhere. Some managers are just ideal for where they are.

 

[Revan]

Zidane has an amazing trophy haul and it would be foolish to call him simply lucky. Same for crediting it to Ronaldo. He’s a fantastic man manager and knows how to set the team up. But he’s not flawless and benefits quite massively from “knowing what Real Madrid is all about”.

Apart from all else though, my biggest concern for Real Madrid today is the biggest reason I feel he’d not have been the right guy for United when we appointed Ole viz. rebuilding. Madrid right now are still heavily reliant on the same (and now very creaky) core that he inherited when he first took over.

There have been a lot of purchases and there were also high hopes from the academy but look at the first choice 11 and it’s just 3 players that differ from the first-choice 11 of his first CL winning squad. Those would be the replacements for Keylor, Cristiano and Bale. As evolution goes, that’s shocking. This when the club isn’t blind to the need for a rebuild and has invested heavily in the transfer market. It’s hard to even highlight a successful Zidane transfer! Hazard, maybe?

It is very easy to just look at the trophy haul and cream oneself over it. Zidane has undoubtedly mastered the art of squeezing the most out of his resources and is an absolute genius in how he goes about this, specially in the CL. But there’s enough there to question whether he’d be able to do this elsewhere. Some managers are just ideal for where they are.

He was not their manager last season and in the first half of this season. Hazard was not signed under Zidane, Zidane had left during that summer.

 

[midnightmare]

He was not their manager last season and in the first half of this season. Hazard was not signed under Zidane, Zidane had left during that summer.

Eh what? You really may want to look that up again...

 

[Revan]

Eh what? You really may want to look that up again...

I guess Covid has fecked me up

 

[midnightmare]

I guess Covid has fecked me up

Hehehe. Yep. Anyway, even leaving that aside, he’s basically replaced 3 players in 4 years - one of whom (Keylor) wasn’t even his call. Like I said, I love the bloke and he’s been absolutely phenomenal for Madrid, but there’s enough for me to believe he’s ideal for Madrid and not for us. Similarly, I feel Ole’s pluses are heavily oriented to making him right for us and perhaps not for many / any other big clubs.

 

[lysglimt]

I've always maintained that he should be judged based on CL qualification. I may change my mind come August if we win the FA Cup and miss out in exceptionally unlucky circumstances for CL, but currently I still feel if he doesn't get CL he hasn't proven enough over his entire tenure to justify another season.

I can hold my hands up and say currently we are playing sincilating football and he appears to have finally cracked it. I sincerely hope this continues and I will be the first person to come in this thread and admit I was wrong.

The problem is - we might lose to Chelsea or City/Arsenal on penalties in the FA Cup, go undefeated in the League and still not qualify for C.L. Europa League cant be taken into consideration because we can't waste one more month waiting to know if we win E.L and qualify for C.L next year, Before deciding who our manager should be.

So basically sacking him now - is in reality impossible

 

[midnightmare]

I've always maintained that he should be judged based on CL qualification. I may change my mind come August if we win the FA Cup and miss out in exceptionally unlucky circumstances for CL, but currently I still feel if he doesn't get CL he hasn't proven enough over his entire tenure to justify another season.

I can hold my hands up and say currently we are playing sincilating football and he appears to have finally cracked it. I sincerely hope this continues and I will be the first person to come in this thread and admit I was wrong.

So let’s assume the following:
1. We win every game left - including Leicester
2. Chelsea and Leicester win every game too - barring Leicester against us
3. City’s CL ban gets overturned

In this scenario, we’d miss out on CL. Would you really want to sack Ole despite admitting he seems to have finally got everything right? In my opinion, that would be bizarre. Seriously.

Edit: I don’t think we should allow a fluky EL win to overcome poor league form and similarly, I don’t think we should overlook what’s clearly a rapidly progressing WIP team and squad just because of a few months at the start of the campaign where we were crippled by injuries and the burden of past mistakes by a certain toxic manager.

 

[glazed]

What is your definition of "sophisticated football"?

The stuff Liverpool and Man City play, to be blunt. And Spurs for a while.

 

[glazed]

Football is simple, you play attacking football, score goals, fans happy.

I remember someone exactly saying that to Pep in the dressing room at half time in that City documentary on Amazon. Football is simple.

No, he replied, it's complicated.

That player doesn't play for City any more.

 

[glazed]

Like who?

Poch, obviously.

 

[Skills]

We still play unsophisticated football. We have better players though. If we sack Ole we will still have those players.

Most fans think you should sack the manager if he loses a lot of football games. But the best reason to sack a manager is because there is someone else who wants the job who could do it better. I think that's the case here.

Is correct.

Whether it's players/coaches/both, if there's someone better out there you should always look to upgrade if you have the money. Because that's how you get better.

 

[glazed]

Is correct.

Whether it's players/coaches/both, if there's someone better out there you should always look to upgrade if you have the money. Because that's how you get better.

Exactly. Otherwise Pellegrini would still be managing Manchester City.

 

[Skills]

Exactly. Otherwise Pellegrini would still be managing Manchester City.

I think the problem for us is, our fanbase isn't just looking for someone to manage/coach their football team. They're looking for a father figure to guide them, their children and their own parents through the next 20 years of life.

It's a weird, unhealthy relationship they have with the managers position that the club need to do something about. Or else, it's going to be something that will hold us back for years to come.

 

[glazed]

I think the problem for us is, our fanbase isn't just looking for someone to manage/coach their football team. They're looking for a father figure to guide them, their children and their own parents through the next 20 years of life.

Maybe but the fans don't pick the manager or structure the club, Woodward does. And he's not been very good at it.

 

[Skills]

Maybe but the fans don't pick the manager or structure the club, Woodward does. And he's not been very good at it.

But they are a huge obstacle, when the club actually tries to move on from them. Case in point, was when it looked like the club was going to sack Mourinho in October and they threw a massive hissy-fit about it (egged on by Gary Neville of course). It was the same with Mourinho's extension.

The fans themselves aren't pulling the trigger on the decisions, but their opinion/atmosphere around the club is hugely influential on the decisions the board does make(or doesn't in our case).

 

[rotherham_red]

The stuff Liverpool and Man City play, to be blunt. And Spurs for a while.

Liverpool this season have not been sophisticated in the way they play football, and arguably haven't been since 2018.

 

[glazed]

Liverpool this season have not been sophisticated in the way they play football, and arguably haven't been since 2018.

You think? They got a lot of points with some fairly average players if you ask me.

 

[midnightmare]

The stuff Liverpool and Man City play, to be blunt. And Spurs for a while.

Liverpool play “sophisticated” football? That’d be the Liverpool with Henderson and Wijnaldum in the middle of the park? You’re just looking at the table and talking, I reckon. If anything, since January we’ve looked way better than they have all season

 

[midnightmare]

You think? They got a lot of points with some fairly average players if you ask me.

So did Bolton under Big Sam. Didn’t hear anyone queuing up to call them a “sophisticated” team

 

[mancave bear]

Is correct.

Whether it's players/coaches/both, if there's someone better out there you should always look to upgrade if you have the money. Because that's how you get better.

We have tried some of the worlds best managers. Lets try stability for a change.

 

[Skills]

We have tried some of the worlds best managers. Lets try stability for a change.

No we haven't. We have tried 1 poor manager and two managers well past their best.

 

[rotherham_red]

You think? They got a lot of points with some fairly average players if you ask me.

Can you name me many Liverpool goals this season which have taken your breath away? Outside of one goal by Oxlade-Chamberlain in Europe, I'm struggling to think of one. Their whole game is based around keeping it tight at the back with their high energy midfield just distributing the ball to their fullbacks to spam crosses in ad infinitum.

What part of that is sophisticated in any way shape or form?

 

[mancave bear]

The stuff Liverpool and Man City play, to be blunt. And Spurs for a while.

And still Pep manage to loose more games than us this season. And we have won all the league games against them. I think we play better than them. Advanced or not, Ole is great with tactics, getting the best out the players his got.