Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

Sack or Keep OLE?

  • Sack Ole end of season & appoint new coach ASAP

  • Keep Ole & back him to finish rebuild


Results are only viewable after voting.

midnightmare

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These are exceptional managers though. Once they leave 71 points will win the league again. Even Alex Ferguson would struggle. These managers would do this in any era. Back in the old says Fergie was too good for the other British managers. Today it is different with all of these top foreign managers.

Outside of the top 2 it has been highly competitive. Look at the right points margin between them.

You're up against young, hungry elite managers wanted by everybody... hence why the top 2 are so far ahead.
If we ever needed evidence that the previous system was better, this is it. The state of this... FML...
 

Leftback99

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Hell yes I am.

I don't quite get the prevalent notion that one factor matters more than the other. They BOTH matter. The manager can only do so much, the game is actually played by the players.

A football manager isn't some real life version of FM2020 where you can set a fixed amount of variables and they will execute your willful command. You need the right players that can do it.

OR to use a lazy example: Pep Guardiola isn't qualifying for the Europa League with Norwich. Why is that? Becuause the players aren't good enough. Perhaps if he can BUY the RIGHT players like say.. Klopp has done with Liverpool. If you remember, Liverpool didn't exactly do great in his first season either.

But if you want to point to Klopp. Let me remind you EXACTLY what Klopp did.

He built a team with the right players. His first season (30 games in 2015/2016) actually mimmicked the 18/19 campaign for Manchester United in many many ways, but they did even worse, finishing in 8th.

In 2016/2017 he added the following players to the squad: Gini Wijnaldum, Joel Matip, Loris Karius and Sadio Mane. Mané gave Liverpools offensive a penetrative threat through speed they did not have with Firminho or Coutinho. There was no Europa League at Anfield that season, and they went out of both cups early'ish. The team however improved a LOT with Mané - Scoring 13 with 6 assists. With no external cups to draw focus they had the luxury of focusing entirely on the league, and squeezed through to the Champions League.

Does Jürgen Klopp win the Premier League with the 2016/2017 squad? Of course he doesn't. Neither does Sir Alex.

2017/2018 - Hmmm who did Klopp buy that is noteworthy... oh yes: Andy Robertson, Mohamed Salah and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. Bonus squad player from the academy: Trent Alexander-Arnold. And a casual Virgil Van Dijk in January of the same year.

Will these players thrive in a back 5 system? Well no, but they weren't bought to play in defensive teams, they are playing in a team that plays a very spesific brand of football, and THAT is why they work. Still though, defense wasn't entirely fixed yet, lacked a couple components to mount a title challenge. Liverpool comes 4th again in 17/18

2018/2019: Signs Alisson Becker and Fabinho. Last pieces of a 3 year long puzzle.

So at this point: Klopp has the players he needs to challenge for a title. It took Jürgen Klopp 3 years to build a football team that could win a majori title. And he got lucky. All signings don't work out the way you want, Keita has been underwhelming compared to what the hype indicated, Karius forced the signing of Alisson. But largely the players he brought in are the right people for the job. And that is honestly the only takeaway i want from this post: Put the right man in the job and he will succeed. Employ the coaches that will help the players develop their game and he will succeed better.

Employ the manager that will use the players at hand to the best of their ability, and you might win a title.
Not to forget their market leading analysis and recruitment team. Klopp didn't singlehandedly pick out the likes of Salah and Robertson as transfer bargains as many seem to think.
 

KM

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These are exceptional managers though. Once they leave 71 points will win the league again. Even Alex Ferguson would struggle. These managers would do this in any era. Back in the old says Fergie was too good for the other British managers. Today it is different with all of these top foreign managers.

Outside of the top 2 it has been highly competitive. Look at the right points margin between them.

You're up against young, hungry elite managers wanted by everybody... hence why the top 2 are so far ahead.
Ah yes the famous British manager i.e the likes of Wenger, Mourinho, Benitez, Ancelloti, Mancini whom Fergie took on and defeated them in league titles. What a stupid post.
 

midnightmare

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Funny thing is, if Klopp's supposedly awesome "tactics" of this season were played with a team of, oh I don't know, Fellani, Valencia and Young for example, we'd be talking about how they were dumping 80+ aimless crosses into the box without actually having a goal threat...

Think a slightly harder line should be taken on posts now. I mean, I'm all for freedom of expression, but it's hard for me to accept that we should refrain from making "personal attacks" (read: question the intellectual capacity of the poster) when in the past two pages we've read:

1. Jose's 81 point team > the treble winners
2. SAF would not beat Pep and Klopp

These really are depths I didn't think we'd plumb...
 

Fully Fledged

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Perhaps it's time to admit it takes more than just good players to win football matches? I mean like you're talking as if the current squad is the same as it was under Moyes. It's not even the same as the one Louis Van Gaal left.

The question I'd be asking is - considering the state of those results, how are we only on our 4th manager in the last 7 years? I mean Chelsea are on their 4th and they've actually won 2 PL titles in that time.
Ask Watford what changing manager 3 times a season does for you.
 

prath92

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These are exceptional managers though. Once they leave 71 points will win the league again. Even Alex Ferguson would struggle. These managers would do this in any era. Back in the old says Fergie was too good for the other British managers. Today it is different with all of these top foreign managers.

Outside of the top 2 it has been highly competitive. Look at the right points margin between them.

You're up against young, hungry elite managers wanted by everybody... hence why the top 2 are so far ahead.
what rubbish.Ferguson was able to ward offthe likes of prime wenger mourinho anceotti and many others over 25 years and you think he’d struggle vs klopp and pep?
 

Mainoldo

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Funny thing is, if Klopp's supposedly awesome "tactics" of this season were played with a team of, oh I don't know, Fellani, Valencia and Young for example, we'd be talking about how they were dumping 80+ aimless crosses into the box without actually having a goal threat...

Think a slightly harder line should be taken on posts now. I mean, I'm all for freedom of expression, but it's hard for me to accept that we should refrain from making "personal attacks" (read: question the intellectual capacity of the poster) when in the past two pages we've read:

1. Jose's 81 point team > the treble winners
2. SAF would not beat Pep and Klopp

These really are depths I didn't think we'd plumb...
Maybe you should stop being so triggered against people that just have a different view point against yours. True or not we don’t actually know do we. Hence why Liverpool fans feel justified in rating this current team so highly.
 

anant

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Maybe you should stop being so triggered against people that just have a different view point against yours. True or not we don’t actually know do we. Hence why Liverpool fans feel justified in rating this current team so highly.
No one's saying that they aren't a really good side. But to say a team that won just the league (and did not set any points record nor did they go through the season unbeaten) is the best English team ever is preposterous.
 

midnightmare

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Maybe you should stop being so triggered against people that just have a different view point against yours. True or not we don’t actually know do we. Hence why Liverpool fans feel justified in rating this current team so highly.
I have nothing against people saying Klopp or Jose or even Allardyce or McClaren are better managers than Ole or that this Liverpool team is a better team etc. etc. But when people start saying Jose's team in his second season was better than the treble winners or that Fergie would not beat Klopp, that's ridiculous. That's the Jose that SAF ran out of the PL despite only one of them having unlimited funds and the other a stifling amount of debt to service. That's the Klopp that compared meeting Fergie to meeting the Pope and has won the PL a grand total of once. This Liverpool team crashed out of every Cup before even the SFs. To compare Pep or Klopp with a man who is acknowledge even by these two as quite likely the greatest ever is beyond preposterous.
 

sp_107

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If we played like this and Ole's position was safe, Haaland would have joined us for sure. Wondering if he can bring in Odegaard and Haaland to us now as he is building something good here.

Having Scandinavian manager, we should be in a good position to tap into any great players coming from that area.
 

Mainoldo

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I have nothing against people saying Klopp or Jose or even Allardyce or McClaren are better managers than Ole or that this Liverpool team is a better team etc. etc. But when people start saying Jose's team in his second season was better than the treble winners or that Fergie would not beat Klopp, that's ridiculous. That's the Jose that SAF ran out of the PL despite only one of them having unlimited funds and the other a stifling amount of debt to service. That's the Klopp that compared meeting Fergie to meeting the Pope and has won the PL a grand total of once. This Liverpool team crashed out of every Cup before even the SFs. To compare Pep or Klopp with a man who is acknowledge even by these two as quite likely the greatest ever is beyond preposterous.
To much if buts maybes and not trues. I’ll tell you what is true though. That 99 side was better than Jose’s second side. Tell you what also is true. If Pep wasn’t Manchester United manager Jose’s team would have won that Premier league and we’d remember it like his last Chelsea league champions. Boring but did the job.

Now let it go.
 

Halftrack

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Why have the goal posts moved to points totals now?
@bleedred painted himself into a corner with his claims about points being the only metric by which to compare teams, and because he's completely unwilling to admit to being wrong, is now in a forced marriage with the idea that Jose's 2nd place team was better than Ferguson's treble winners.
 

bleedred

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@bleedred painted himself into a corner with his claims about points being the only metric by which to compare teams, and because he's completely unwilling to admit to being wrong, is now in a forced marriage with the idea that Jose's 2nd place team was better than Ferguson's treble winners.
You have a better one?. I have agreed its nonsensical to compare teams from different eras. But, if we are going to do it, how would you though?
 

Matriac

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I am just talking about just the league one its own.
Manchester United have never been about just the league, so why set that constraint. Back then we would save certain players in the league matches to focus on cups, especially as long as we were sufficiently ahead of the others in the league. You never had to get close to 100 points to win the league. Now it seems you do, the game has changed. Same as records in all sports improve over the years with improved technology and techniques. (For football this would be football scientists, gps tracking and so on.)
You play differently when you are playing for certain results. You play safer if you just need the draw to achieve the goal if losing could be an issue.
 

midnightmare

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To much if buts maybes and not trues. I’ll tell you what is true though. That 99 side was better than Jose’s second side. Tell you what also is true. If Pep wasn’t Manchester United manager Jose’s team would have won that Premier league and we’d remember it like his last Chelsea league champions. Boring but did the job.

Now let it go.
Pep wasn’t Manchester United manager. And if he’d not been City’s Manager, someone else would have. You don’t know what that someone else could or would have achieved. Bottom line - that team played crap, overachieved like crazy and was ultimately fortunate to cling on to second.

Let it go now.
 

TheLord

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I think the Europa League will give us a fair idea of Ole's abilities in crucial cup ties. Without having to worry about the Madrids, Barcas, and Bayerns of Europe, there's no reason why Manchester United should not mount a serious title challenge. At least on paper, we have the best starting-eleven among all remaining teams the EL.

I will change my vote if Ole wins this trophy.
 

Withnail

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I think the Europa League will give us a fair idea of Ole's abilities in crucial cup ties. Without having to worry about the Madrids, Barcas, and Bayerns of Europe, there's no reason why Manchester United should not mount a serious title challenge. At least on paper, we have the best starting-eleven among all remaining teams the EL.

I will change my vote if Ole wins this trophy.
Thank Christ for that
 

united_99

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Comparing points in different seasons, especially if there is a 19 years gap between them is more than just pointless.

In 1998/99 for example there were only 2 teams from the PL in the CL. In Jose’s time with us there were at least 4. It does make a difference if only you (and another PL team - in our case initially Arsenal who went out in the group stages in 1998/99) have to play PL games after difficult European midweek games or if at least 3 other teams face the same challenge.

A lot of people were discussing fatigue of our players in the last few weeks and how team x had a whole week to rest and team z had two days more rest. Now imagine how that fatigue would look like if you are actually the only PL team with such a tight schedule and playing an important match every 3-4 days.
In 1998/99 the team was already in the 1st half of the season in the group of death with Barcelona and Bayern. Everyone knows how exciting but also difficult those midweek games were. And after the group stages we were the only PL team left in the CL until the very end. Arsenal didn’t survive the group stages and weren’t even competing in other European competitions. Despite having played many more games we still won the PL ahead of them. Chelsea were at least still competing in the cup winners cup - albeit against weaker teams than the CL and fewer games than we had to play.

In 2017/18 we were in a relatively easy CL group and went out in the 1st knock-out phase. Not a great achievement really that Jose managed to get us 2 more points in that season than we got in 1998/99 under completely different circumstances.

In the end if you win the PL + CL in the same season it means you are a great team as you won the CL and managed to win one of Europe’s top leagues at the same time. To top it by winning the FA Cup in the same season is huge!
This is a greater season than winning the league with 100 or whatever points but being nothing special in Europe at the same time.
And definitely better than what we achieved in 2017/18.
There’s no way you can compare seasons without taking into consideration the amount of games played and the level of opposition overcome in the seasons you are comparing.
 

Foxbatt

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Any saf team that won the trophies were better than the Jose team that came 2nd.
I would say any saf team that came 2nd was better than the Jose team that came 2nd.
You simply cannot compare. It's a matter of opinion.
 

roseguy64

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Better qs would be when did this transfer committee started?

I think season 17/18, late months 2017, many transfers later on support that theory. It definitely had strongest influence starting 18/19 onwards.

Looking at the committee members though, I would say Ole have stronger influence than Mou there. No way they will ignore his input.
What's the date for the interview?
The info got released last year October.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mufc-new-transfer-recruitment-procedure.451331/

This thread has an article in the OP about the changes. Was out before the interview which was in United We Stand a few days later.

https://www.thenational.ae/sport/fo...-manchester-united-to-former-glories-1.925936

This is an article about the interview. Think a link was shared with pics of the interview but can't bother searching for it.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Any saf team that won the trophies were better than the Jose team that came 2nd.
I would say any saf team that came 2nd was better than the Jose team that came 2nd.
You simply cannot compare. It's a matter of opinion.
That is why bias might play a role. We love our sides and think they are better since they won titles for us.
The Mourinho side is mostly hated due to how we played in the big games that season and also how it failed when it did matter.

It is fair to say that football now is better than it was in the 1990. I am too young to have experienced that time, but from watching the games it looks worse and slower back then.
Thus to argue that other sides was much stronger is a bit silly too.
Although it is about to win what you can and we did that then in 1999. Mourinho only won two cups and failed here so his side is not greater than 1999 obviously even though he won more points.
Although it was probably harder to gain 81 points now than it was in 1999.
 

Reiver

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Comparing points in different seasons, especially if there is a 19 years gap between them is more than just pointless.

In 1998/99 for example there were only 2 teams from the PL in the CL. In Jose’s time with us there were at least 4. It does make a difference if only you (and another PL team - in our case initially Arsenal who went out in the group stages in 1998/99) have to play PL games after difficult European midweek games or if at least 3 other teams face the same challenge.

A lot of people were discussing fatigue of our players in the last few weeks and how team x had a whole week to rest and team z had two days more rest. Now imagine how that fatigue would look like if you are actually the only PL team with such a tight schedule and playing an important match every 3-4 days.
In 1998/99 the team was already in the 1st half of the season in the group of death with Barcelona and Bayern. Everyone knows how exciting but also difficult those midweek games were. And after the group stages we were the only PL team left in the CL until the very end. Arsenal didn’t survive the group stages and weren’t even competing in other European competitions. Despite having played many more games we still won the PL ahead of them. Chelsea were at least still competing in the cup winners cup - albeit against weaker teams than the CL and fewer games than we had to play.

In 2017/18 we were in a relatively easy CL group and went out in the 1st knock-out phase. Not a great achievement really that Jose managed to get us 2 more points in that season than we got in 1998/99 under completely different circumstances.

In the end if you win the PL + CL in the same season it means you are a great team as you won the CL and managed to win one of Europe’s top leagues at the same time. To top it by winning the FA Cup in the same season is huge!
This is a greater season than winning the league with 100 or whatever points but being nothing special in Europe at the same time.
And definitely better than what we achieved in 2017/18.
There’s no way you can compare seasons without taking into consideration the amount of games played and the level of opposition overcome in the seasons you are comparing.
A common sense response to the current obsession of comparing points totals, I agree 100%.
Context is everything when comparing different teams and the number of posters who seem to rely solely on points totals are only considering one facet and missing the bigger picture.
 

Fussball13251

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That is why bias might play a role. We love our sides and think they are better since they won titles for us.
The Mourinho side is mostly hated due to how we played in the big games that season and also how it failed when it did matter.

It is fair to say that football now is better than it was in the 1990. I am too young to have experienced that time, but from watching the games it looks worse and slower back then.
Thus to argue that other sides was much stronger is a bit silly too.
Although it is about to win what you can and we did that then in 1999. Mourinho only won two cups and failed here so his side is not greater than 1999 obviously even though he won more points.
Although it was probably harder to gain 81 points now than it was in 1999.
It's just more organized now. Foreigners changed it. There is no "British" style anymore. Football back then was alot more British... the way that the played.
 

'77FACup

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We are United and we set out to win all trophies available.
With it looking like to win the league we need at least 90 odd points do we think OGS can fight on all fronts or do we just want the league first then he should have been able to build a team to win multiple trophies in the seasons after?
 

theklr

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I know it has been said to death, but next season will most definately be "Ole's first real test"

He has had time to mold the team into how he wants it,he has bought what he wanted in defence and this window mid/attack, and with Sancho, Grealish or VdB, and another striker or CB coming in, he should really be comfortable in top 4 next season.

I dont expect a full on title challenge, but he should be at least quite close. Should also be competing in all cups again, and getting through the group stages of CL.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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To much if buts maybes and not trues. I’ll tell you what is true though. That 99 side was better than Jose’s second side. Tell you what also is true. If Pep wasn’t Manchester United manager Jose’s team would have won that Premier league and we’d remember it like his last Chelsea league champions. Boring but did the job.

Now let it go.
Someone else would. You are going to hope the freak 15/16 season all over again for Jose to win the league in 17/18.

These are exceptional managers though. Once they leave 71 points will win the league again. Even Alex Ferguson would struggle. These managers would do this in any era. Back in the old says Fergie was too good for the other British managers. Today it is different with all of these top foreign managers.

Outside of the top 2 it has been highly competitive. Look at the right points margin between them.

You're up against young, hungry elite managers wanted by everybody... hence why the top 2 are so far ahead.
Point means nothing without knowing why and how they achieve it.

For example. Last season we achieved 66 points which exactly the same as this season. So how did we finish top 4 while last season we didn't? Because this season we beat our competitors (Chelsea 2x, Leicester 2x, Spurs 1x & draw). If we didn't beat Leicester & Chelsea twice but beat other teams instead, we wouldn't make top 3 with 66 points this season.

Every seasons & eras are different. 12/13 or post are different to prior.

Sir Alex won the league with 89 points in 12/13. Are you telling me that 12/13 squad is better than 98/99? If Sir Alex can won the league with 89 points with Cleverley, Jones, 39 years old Giggs, Young & Valencia in 12/13 which is the beginning of the, imagine what he can do with proper players in nowdays era.
 

Smores

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Pep wasn’t Manchester United manager. And if he’d not been City’s Manager, someone else would have. You don’t know what that someone else could or would have achieved. Bottom line - that team played crap, overachieved like crazy and was ultimately fortunate to cling on to second.

Let it go now.
We actually smashed a lot of teams that season we didn't play like crap at all. I think there's some recency bias in confusing the following season with it and the Sevilla games toward the end. You say clung on but we were 4 points clear.

In the league we got decent results against the top teams, Arsenal twice, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, City. The only bad game was the loss to Spurs really and maybe City at home which was overly defensive.

I certainly wouldn't agree with the idiotic idea it compared to any of SAFs top teams but the idea that it wasn't a very good season is as moronic.
 

lysglimt

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We actually smashed a lot of teams that season we didn't play like crap at all. I think there's some recency bias in confusing the following season with it and the Sevilla games toward the end. You say clung on but we were 4 points clear.

In the league we got decent results against the top teams, Arsenal twice, Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, City. The only bad game was the loss to Spurs really and maybe City at home which was overly defensive.

I certainly wouldn't agree with the idiotic idea it compared to any of SAFs top teams but the idea that it wasn't a very good season is as moronic.
We were really good up until december - after that we started to play a lot of really bad games, but we managed to carve out a lot of wins with 1 goal. But I agree, the football we played in the first 2-3 months of the season was really good, and we actually looked like we could fight for the title.
 

Withnail

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We were really good up until december - after that we started to play a lot of really bad games, but we managed to carve out a lot of wins with 1 goal. But I agree, the football we played in the first 2-3 months of the season was really good, and we actually looked like we could fight for the title.
I seem to recall we looked brilliant up til Jose bottled it and parked the bus against a Liverpool side who were there for the taking. Confidence just seemed to drain from the team after that.
 

Foxbatt

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That is why bias might play a role. We love our sides and think they are better since they won titles for us.
The Mourinho side is mostly hated due to how we played in the big games that season and also how it failed when it did matter.

It is fair to say that football now is better than it was in the 1990. I am too young to have experienced that time, but from watching the games it looks worse and slower back then.
Thus to argue that other sides was much stronger is a bit silly too.
Although it is about to win what you can and we did that then in 1999. Mourinho only won two cups and failed here so his side is not greater than 1999 obviously even though he won more points.
Although it was probably harder to gain 81 points now than it was in 1999.
You look at the players SAF had and the players we have now or Jose had. We have to accept the squad SAF had was better and better coached too. It doesn't take away anything from Jose who was a world class manager.
I am not comparing Ole to Jose.
Ole has to win almost the whole lot to be even compared to Jose in his success.
It's to point out that points alone can't be the criteria for comparison as to what wins the PL. Points in one season could be higher and not win the league while in another season it could be lower.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Someone else would.
In all probability, yes.

You can remove Pep from the equation, but that doesn't mean you also remove City's squad (under another hypothetical manager) from it.

Sure, it's conceivable that United might have limped over the line as PL winners that season if you remove Pep (and replace him with a pretty shite manager) - yes. But it still wouldn't have had the appearance of Jose's last title winning season with Chelsea. Because that season they looked genuinely solid up to a certain point - after which they, sort of, hung in there and dragged themselves over the line in a decidedly non-glorious fashion. But they actually looked solid for months. We never looked solid at any point, by contrast. We looked shaky as feck - a disjointed team capable of moments of brilliance and carried in several, crucial matches by a goal keeper making statistically unlikely saves time and again. If we had won the league that season, it would have gone down in history as a very shabby title campaign - clearly worse than Chelsea's.

ETA It is also very easy to make a mockery of the idea that points total - or even league position - is an accurate measure of how good a given team actually was. You - obviously - have to factor in more.

Sacchi's AC Milan vintage won the Serie A in 1988. They then secured their reputation as one of the greatest club teams ever by winning the European Cup in style - and then defending it the following season.

But that team did not win the league in any of the seasons when they triumphed in the European Cup. They came 3rd in '89 and 2nd in '90. Had that happened today, I have no doubt a certain category would have been all over it, pushing the idea that this historically great team - with Baresi, Maldini, Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard - were a bit "overrated" (quite possibly "frauds" to boot).

Of course, a bit of context helps here: the Serie A was insane in those years, with Inter's "German" vintage (who won it in '89) and Maradona's Napoli (who won it in '90). But that's pretty much the point - context. You don't judge a team by looking at statistics in isolation - unless you're a feckin' idiot, that is.
 
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