Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Foxbatt]

I personally don't think we are going to get top 4 this year unless there is a drastic influx of new players and we play hell of a lot better in every match.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I personally don't think we are going to get top 4 this year unless there is a drastic influx of new players and we play hell of a lot better in every match.

I don’t think we will finish top 4 unless we can get more points than 16 other clubs.

 

[Tyrion]

Another big issue is giving a free reign to these managers to sign whoever the feck they want.

If I could do anything to the club, it would be to appoint a director of football to provide some sort of continuity.

Spoiler: Video

 

[Anustart89]

Is Bruno Fernandes and DVB a joke to you?

Not sure what point you’re making. Are you considering £55m and £40m ‘cheap’? I’m sure that they’ll both be worth their transfer fees, but Ole can’t complain that he hasn’t had the opportunity to replace the entire squad in three transfer windows if his targets are around £60m on average (based on Bruno 55, AWB 50, vdB 40, James 15, Maguire 80, Sancho 108 if he comes). With that average, signing 18 players will cost over £1bn and what type of board would sanction that to get fourth?

But as usual on the caf, I expect you to skirt around the point that I’m making and make some other nit-picky argument like “the average of those players is actually £58m, not £60m” or something.

 

[Amir]

What I will advise Ole though is focus on getting Top 4 and ignore the cup competitions.

Would that intend to serve Manchester United, or to serve Solskjaer's chance of retaining his job?

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Not sure what point you’re making. Are you considering £55m and £40m ‘cheap’? I’m sure that they’ll both be worth their transfer fees, but Ole can’t complain that he hasn’t had the opportunity to replace the entire squad in three transfer windows if his targets are around £60m on average (based on Bruno 55, AWB 50, vdB 40, James 15, Maguire 80, Sancho 108 if he comes). With that average, signing 18 players will cost over £1bn and what type of board would sanction that to get fourth?

But as usual on the caf, I expect you to skirt around the point that I’m making and make some other nit-picky argument like “the average of those players is actually £58m, not £60m” or something.

Good post.

 

[Amir]

Not sure what point you’re making. Are you considering £55m and £40m ‘cheap’? I’m sure that they’ll both be worth their transfer fees, but Ole can’t complain that he hasn’t had the opportunity to replace the entire squad in three transfer windows if his targets are around £60m on average (based on Bruno 55, AWB 50, vdB 40, James 15, Maguire 80, Sancho 108 if he comes). With that average, signing 18 players will cost over £1bn and what type of board would sanction that to get fourth?

Agreed. While I can see why fans want us to spend more, we've spent quite a bit.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

That is not how it works! Ole deliver his priorities and a list of players. What they cost, even the contract of players staying is not up to him. Every manager want the players yesterday, so the time spent getting them is not up to him either. He just have to back the players he has and the hierarchy public either way...

And since I’ve just reached my daily quota and can’t respond further.

The club has set their target on where they want to be. The manager have said what is needed. Unfortunately, that cost money. The budget, and how much they can sacrifice pocketing in their own pockets is up to them. We are not playing FM manager, and everything Ole has put forward in the media has been right. We are pulling youngsters from our ranks, and can’t afford buying projects reaching them goals. Our squad and squad depth is poor. And I think most recognise we desperately need a top right winger. A left back, center back and a striker. Plain as day. What they cost is not up to the manager. But the quality needed is.

That's not how it works either.

Ole: I want you to buy me Maquire.
Ed: Maquire will cost 80m making him the most expensive defender ever and will use up most of your transfer kitty meaning you wont have much to spend on other players, are you sure about this have you got any other alternatives?
Ole: No thats OK I still want you to get me Maquire

Thats how it works.

 

[Foxbatt]

Not sure what point you’re making. Are you considering £55m and £40m ‘cheap’? I’m sure that they’ll both be worth their transfer fees, but Ole can’t complain that he hasn’t had the opportunity to replace the entire squad in three transfer windows if his targets are around £60m on average (based on Bruno 55, AWB 50, vdB 40, James 15, Maguire 80, Sancho 108 if he comes). With that average, signing 18 players will cost over £1bn and what type of board would sanction that to get fourth?

But as usual on the caf, I expect you to skirt around the point that I’m making and make some other nit-picky argument like “the average of those players is actually £58m, not £60m” or something.

Yes there is basis of a decent team when Ole came to United. Players like Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Greenwood, Shaw, DeGea, Henderson, Bailly, Fred, Matic were all at United Even Smalling. He could have got a better player than AWB and Maguire too. He doesn't need to make whole sale changes to the team. He needs to get a few players and get the players already here to play much better. With Martial he has done so. He has got Bruno and DVB. So get the players he has now to play the best way they can. I really do not know why he did not try Maguire and Smalling for a few games at least.
This is the issue isn't it? He cannot get the best out of most of them. He cannot coach how to play the best they can. ( I am including his coaches as well).I suppose he is trying to get players the way he wants them to play and still we do not know how he wants them to play even after a full season.

 

[Foxbatt]

That's not how it works either.

Ole: I want you to buy me Maquire.
Ed: Maquire will cost 80m making him the most expensive defender ever and will use up most of your transfer kitty meaning you wont have much to spend on other players, are you sure about this have you got any other alternatives?
Ole: No thats OK I still want you to get me Maquire

Thats how it works.

That's exactly how it works. There is a budget and within the budget the Manager can decide whom he wants to buy.

 

[Amir]

That's exactly how it works. There is a budget and within the budget the Manager can decide whom he wants to buy.

You would expect it to work that way. Mind you I'm pretty sure Fergie said or wrote that during his work with the Glazers things were done differently and on an individual basis rather than going into the summer with a total sum in mind.

Doesn't matter, really. Obviously it's not a bottomless pit and if you choose to spend big money on a player you obviously know you'll have less for others.

 

[Anustart89]

Yes there is basis of a decent team when Ole came to United. Players like Martial, Rashford, Pogba, Greenwood, Shaw, DeGea, Henderson, Bailly, Fred, Matic were all at United Even Smalling. He could have got a better player than AWB and Maguire too. He doesn't need to make whole sale changes to the team. He needs to get a few players and get the players already here to play much better. With Martial he has done so. He has got Bruno and DVB. So get the players he has now to play the best way they can. I really do not know why he did not try Maguire and Smalling for a few games at least.
This is the issue isn't it? He cannot get the best out of most of them. He cannot coach how to play the best they can. ( I am including his coaches as well).I suppose he is trying to get players the way he wants them to play and still we do not know how he wants them to play even after a full season.

I agree with this. Evidence of this is how many people expect vdB to regress as a player under Ole with comments like “he’ll drop down to our level” in his performance thread.

Just going through the squad in terms of player development under this coaching staff we have a few players who have improved (Greenwood for obvious reasons, Martial from playing in his favoured position and not being on his way out of the club) whereas most other players have not improved or even regressed. You’d expect more individual improvement after 1.5 years, especially with some players that have very obvious weaknesses like AWB that don’t seem to have been addressed at all.

I’m not saying all of this is Ole’s fault, but he’s the one who picked Phelan, Carrick and McKenna and he’s the one who hasn’t made any changes to his backroom staff since getting the job.

 

[Withnail]

I agree with this. Evidence of this is how many people expect vdB to regress as a player under Ole with comments like “he’ll drop down to our level” in his performance thread.

Just going through the squad in terms of player development under this coaching staff we have a few players who have improved (Greenwood for obvious reasons, Martial from playing in his favoured position and not being on his way out of the club) whereas most other players have not improved or even regressed. You’d expect more individual improvement after 1.5 years, especially with some players that have very obvious weaknesses like AWB that don’t seem to have been addressed at all.

I’m not saying all of this is Ole’s fault, but he’s the one who picked Phelan, Carrick and McKenna and he’s the one who hasn’t made any changes to his backroom staff since getting the job.

You're evidence is the opinions of the negative nancies who love to run down our players often before they've even kicked a ball or reached the age of 22?

Well that's me convinced.

 

[redmanx]

That is not how it works! Ole deliver his priorities and a list of players. What they cost, even the contract of players staying is not up to him. Every manager want the players yesterday, so the time spent getting them is not up to him either. He just have to back the players he has and the hierarchy public either way...

And since I’ve just reached my daily quota and can’t respond further.

The club has set their target on where they want to be. The manager have said what is needed. Unfortunately, that cost money. The budget, and how much they can sacrifice pocketing in their own pockets is up to them. We are not playing FM manager, and everything Ole has put forward in the media has been right. We are pulling youngsters from our ranks, and can’t afford buying projects reaching them goals. Our squad and squad depth is poor. And I think most recognise we desperately need a top right winger. A left back, center back and a striker. Plain as day. What they cost is not up to the manager. But the quality needed is.

Like most managers Ole probably has little, if anything, to do with a transfer once hes told the board who he wants; the clubs lawyers and financial people then take over and, as they are not "football people" many transfers come to nothing. How Liverpool conduct transfer business I have no idea but I doubt its like United do.

 

[Foxbatt]

I agree with this. Evidence of this is how many people expect vdB to regress as a player under Ole with comments like “he’ll drop down to our level” in his performance thread.

Just going through the squad in terms of player development under this coaching staff we have a few players who have improved (Greenwood for obvious reasons, Martial from playing in his favoured position and not being on his way out of the club) whereas most other players have not improved or even regressed. You’d expect more individual improvement after 1.5 years, especially with some players that have very obvious weaknesses like AWB that don’t seem to have been addressed at all.

I’m not saying all of this is Ole’s fault, but he’s the one who picked Phelan, Carrick and McKenna and he’s the one who hasn’t made any changes to his backroom staff since getting the job.

For me the bigger issue than individual players is the collective way we play. We cannot play like Barcelona play when they had Inniesta and Xavi. We have to fit a way the best our players can play. I am not such a big fan of pressing all the time or playing out from the back for the sake of it. Pressing and playing out from the back has its merit when applied properly and correctly. We cannot play like that because DeGea is not a sweeper. Neither are any of our CBs quick. People have a go at Lindelof but he is doing the only thing he can which is try to slow them down while another team mate comes to his help.

 

[Foxbatt]

Not sure what point you’re making. Are you considering £55m and £40m ‘cheap’? I’m sure that they’ll both be worth their transfer fees, but Ole can’t complain that he hasn’t had the opportunity to replace the entire squad in three transfer windows if his targets are around £60m on average (based on Bruno 55, AWB 50, vdB 40, James 15, Maguire 80, Sancho 108 if he comes). With that average, signing 18 players will cost over £1bn and what type of board would sanction that to get fourth?

But as usual on the caf, I expect you to skirt around the point that I’m making and make some other nit-picky argument like “the average of those players is actually £58m, not £60m” or something.

The Sancho issue is the exact situation that you mentioned. Because we are after Sancho we do not seem to have thought about any other alternatives. So for 14 million we are going to pass over a top player? If so why don't they buy another good player for less than 90 million? Plenty of other top clubs buy these players. Why can't we buy two top class players for around 90 million instead of one player for 90? Is Maguire worth it? Couldn't we have got any other top CB for less than that?

 

[criticalanalysis]

I think this is the key disagreement between Ole out and Ole inn camps, and i dont mean you specifically, but a lot of people in the former camp seem to ascribe any bad performance to coaching or lack thereof. It also seems that a lot of people gloss over any positives and solely focus on the negatives. We did in fact end up in 3rd place just a few months ago, beating City and Chelsea x3 along the way, but two bad matches at the start of the new season all that is forgotten and all the old criticisms pop up again right away. Some people claim 3rd was just par for the course because we have the 3rd best squad in the league, and i'd say thats highly debatable.

One thing is making a plan, another one is actually carrying it out on the pitch. I think everyone agrees we looked like a bunch of headless chickens both vs Brighton and Palace, but if you look at our last 20 games or so it becomes clear that is the exception rather than the rule. Regarding our system, its there, its just not what people (think) they want.

I read a lot on here about getting a "progressive" manager and i assume then people mean someone who plays high press, possession football like all the best teams. We have played high press at times though and it has worked very well. For example post lockdown we had several games where we pressed high with good results. So its not like Ole is completely opposed to it, its just that we dont do it all the time. For a high press/possession tactic to work though you need a couple of key ingredients

1) You need to be better than your opponent in possession: This is absolutely vital. If you attempt to press high, but only have 40% of the ball, you are going to be completely shattered by early second half since you would have spent way to much energy chasing shadows. With a couple of notable exceptions like Bruno and Martial, i'd say we dont really have the squad to be playing an out and out possession style. When Ole faced Klopp and Pep, he knew that trying to beat them at their own game would be suicide so he opted for a more counter attacking style instead. The results were not bad and what made it even better was the sour grapes from Klopp and Pep afterwards about us playing defensive football.

2) You need CM's with a great engine, good tackling ability and preferably a bit of pace as well. Imo, we have just one who fits the bill in Fred. Maybe McTomminay. Pogba in 2019 and 2020 has mostly been injured or a complete liability and i honestly dont think he has it in his locker either. Matic who i think was probably our best midfielder last year does not fit that system at all. Hes good on the ball and is great at reading the game, but if you are asking him to chase players down in a high press he will look like a fish out of water. If we bought someone like Ndidi and played him and Fred as CM/DM partners behind Bruno it could work, but again, right now we dont have the player profiles for it

3) You need a back four who is comfortable on the ball and decent passers. This is also vital because the alternatives are to hoof it and hope for the best or lose possession and get attack instead. Its clear that Ole wants us to play out from the back, but its a mixed bag as we all know. Maguire is alright at it on a good day, so is Shaw and AWB although they too can be pretty inconsistent. Lindelof, for allegedly being some kind of ball playing CB is absolutely terrible at it and regularly gets us into danger when hes put under pressure. Honestly i think Baily would be much better suited to the way we want to play, so maybe if he stays injury free and gets some game time to form a partnership with Maguire it could work

Brighton and Potter often gets used as an example of a relatively small team that plays high press/possession and yes they do, and on their day they are good to watch and its pretty refreshing to see a smaller team not parking the bus, so credit where its due. But: They ended up at 15th last season and only 7 points clear from relegation. Honestly i did not see a whole lot of Brigton games last year, but i saw a a few and every time they faced a side that was more comfortable at possession than them or great at counter attacking they ended up in a lot of trouble

Also its worth noting that Klopp who is seen as the master of this kind of philosophy took about three years + Van Dijk before it all clicked for them. Before that they were shipping goals left, right and center and the only reason they did not end up midtable in 16/17 and 17/18 was because they scored a lot of goals as well.

When we it comes to attacking play we do have "patterns", or signature moves but either people are not seeing them or they are ignoring them willfully.
1) Rashford/Greenwood makes a run into the box, Bruno then squares it to Martial who then hopefully has some space to operate in and can either pass it on or try to shoot
2) Martial pull back and Bruno makes a run, opens up space for Rashford/Greenwood who then receives the ball in a good position
3) Rashford/Greenwood takes it down to the byline and the hits a low cross for someone to get a toe on

Also, both Martial and Rashford have hugely improved under Ole compared to Jose so i hardly think its fair to say that we have no plan and are just making it up as we go along. Of course its not a cooking recipe and it will look slightly different from time to time, but there clearly is a plan, its not just as super structured as say Van Gaal would have it. Also, regarding Van Gaal: Hes living proof that extreme amounts of coaching and instructions does not necessarily produce results or even good football.

It also seems people have forgotten we are still in transition and right now the whole rebuild process has grinded to a complete halt because of the ineptitude of Ed and the board. Under Ole we have shifted a lot of deadwood, but somehow that process has stopped completely. Players like Jones, Rojo, Mata, Lindgard and Pereria should obviously have been shifted a long time ago, but the club has showed they are either completely unable and/or unwilling to find any buyers for them. Then you add the whole Sancho disaster and it very much feels like Ole has been hung out to dry by the board because it seems their ambition is merely securing a positive cash flow. Our first XI is good enough to get top 4, but our back ups can not be trusted at all in the league or the CL, which is pretty fecking disasterous in such a compact season as this one.

So regarding Ole, it seems to me no matter what he does hes never going to earn the trust or even the benefit of the doubt from some fans. So far hes got rid of deadwood, bought fairly well and ended up 3rd in his first full season in the midst of a transition. I'd say thats a passing grade. Still though, for some fans hes constantly one bad game away from the knives being out again and desperate calls for him to be replaced, even though these calls for other managers are utterly unrealistic and only based on "they did well in another club under completely different circumstances".

tl;dr: Maybe but Ole some slack

You've made a lot of good but very generic and out of context points. I don't mean to be harsh but I pretty much catagorically disagree with most of the main points you're making.

• A lot of people have been critiquing Ole's tactics from the get go. It was one of the first things I said even during that glorious first 2 months. It was incredibly gung-ho football with incredibly talented players playing without a leash against (let's be honest) average sides. We had freed Pogba higher up the pitch but once that initial momentum gone, we were struggling to get him the ball because it was still very basically coached football (we still persisted with Lingard as a no.10 who was essentially a non-contributing second striker ffs). We gave Ole benefit of the doubt because 'Pogba downed tools after new manager bounce', 'give Ole time to get his super high pressing, octane strategy, glorious Utd football of old', 'give Ole more players and a full summer'. Come new season, we got our players back to full fitness and with new players, demolish most sides in our stride with again our basic gung-ho football. As soon as we didn't have that extra spring in our step and teams nullfied our energy/tactical shape (e.g just sit back and pick us off), we looked incredibly out of sorts against any other half decently organised team.

• Now obviously Ole was unlucky with injuries and perhaps poor squad depth (only if you compare to the top half of the table) but the football and approach was still dire. I don't think any of us would have 'minded' if we were dominating/pressing teams into submission but getting beat by counter attacking goals/shithousery etc but it wasn't. It was evenly contested games against any slightly resilient side. At that point you would still criticise Ole (and lay 'blame' on the squad quality on the Ed/the board) but have more sympathy because he was getting the most of that group of players available last season (pre-covid/Jan) but he wasn't.

• Our last 20 games was entertaining, I enjoyed it a lot but again fundamentally it was plain to see, we were post-covid just an atheletically superior side (massive squad depth) with talented players playing against lesser opposition. I'm not one of those 'XNA vs FA' whatever stats guys but we were extremely clinical and Bruno was playing a blinder. We were and still am playing this hideously bad and loop sided 4-2-4 formation. Even in the games where we blitzed opposition e.g Bournmouth, Sheffield Utd etc, if you watched those games, we were playing with fire with their very weakly organised high press. Southampton was the game that confirmed it; they came to Old Trafford and at times made us just looked bad.

The thing is, I'm not nitpicking. These are not isolated examples. It presents a very consistent and familar theme.

• As for Brighton. It's not fair to compare their end of season results. The point is that they are able to get their team to play in a organised, effective manner with lesser players. It's not just them. Leeds, Sheffield United, Southampton, Everton, Chelsea last year during Lampard's first seaon in charge etc. I said it in another thread, looking at Ancelotti's team and his midfield set up this year, if we get dominated by their team in possession, it will tell you everything about Ole's progression or actual 'care' for this brand of footbal he talks about. You mention about having a plan and executing it, well those teams above have done it and done it consistently.

It's no point saying 'we've attacked well and scored lots of goals', 'we've pressed teams high' and therefore equate that to 'see Ole definitely wants to play this type of football'. Of course he does but what has he actually done to achieve it consistently? Why are we persisting with Pogba in the deepest two? Why would you have Lindelof with Maguire i.e not a compatible pair to play high line. Why is someone like Fred getting minimal minutes? Why don't he actually try to dominate midfield and 'forgo' a bit of width e.g play Fred/Matic in the cenre and have Pogba/Bruno in a narrow but wide playmaking positions? He has a wide range of players at his disposal that can play a wide range of roles and tactical set ups but have we actually seen anything that's beyond orthodox? The 'Ole needs xyz to implement this' is not good enough an excuse. Just look at those teams I and many have been mentioning above.

As for the Klopp example. Please just don't. It's not comparable. Look at that team he got into the Europa League final and the type of football he got playing. In a way he 'lucked out' with VVD and Allison and at the same time, he definitely did not. Everything he had done with the squad at his disposal would suggest the success of those transfers and how his team played afterwards is a massive justification of the foundations/coaching he had laid. It's not like his team was playing unorganised football. It was chaotic but high intensity football that elevated both the best and worst of the individuals. Case in point Lovren.

Can we say that for players under Ole? Yes to an extent and much credit to him, many of us are acknowledge he has done a fantastic job in terms of man management, having a clear idealogy, trying to bring in the right profile and having a certain ruthless streak (I unlike others will not criticise him for not getting rid enough of more 'deadwood' as I believe he has done as much as he can without basically ripping the squad apart). He deserves massive praise for his treatment/faith in Rashford/Martial/Greenwood/Pogba etc. However, on the pitch we should not be struggling to beat mid-table teams with our full strength first 11. We should not be still shitting our pants when we get pressed. We shouldn't be still relying on moments of brilliant individual play to create chances. Emphasis on chances, I'm not even talking about goals.

Compared to LVG, Ole has laid proper foundations and he will always get my respect (not that he doesn't have enough for his playing days) but right now it's clear his actual coaching is limited. This is not going to overturn overnight. I hope/pray I am wrong.

A lot of us are not OleIn or OleOut. We are just objectively looking at what's best for Utd. It's not about being ruthless, cold hearted or seeing the grass in greener on the other side.

Your last line is where a lot of us differ on. Benefit of the doubt should be giving in context. Off the pitch, arm around the shoulder, club ethnos = Ole is brilliant. On the pitch = Ole is very lacking based on everything we've seen.

 

[remo]

Compared to LVG, Ole has laid proper foundations and he will always get my respect (not that he doesn't have enough for his playing days) but right now it's clear his actual coaching is limited. This is not going to overturn overnight. I hope/pray I am wrong.

Unfortunately I completely agree with you. I just get that feeling that Ole is lost. He has no idea what approach to take. Pogba is not ready and is playing. VDB is ready and gets to play 4 minutes. Bailly is in good form, Lindelof in bad. Who gets to play - Lindelof. It's all over place. Ole could be good DOF but as a coach - oh well.....

 

[Manutd GOGOGO]

I doubt they will sack him. Ole is the type of manager they want. They won't back him and he won't cry to the media, he will get on with his job and see if he can make use of anything from the academy.

That said, I believe Ole will make Top 4 especially if the injuries are not as bad as last season. What I will advise Ole though is focus on getting Top 4 and ignore the cup competitions.

This.

All the current potential and good managers are very vocal in front of the media. They reveal "everything" when they are emotional.

Pochettino especially was sacked for his confrontation with the board in Espanyol and Spurs. He was complaining to the media when they were not backing him.

Managers who are "hands-on" with their training like Pochettino, Mourinho, Klopp have a big ego and have issues working with a bigger ego. They are not happy if people don't take their lead.

The only exception is Pep but that is probably because everybody bows down to him. We know how expressive he is when coaching his team.

Like it or not, Ole is the ideal manager for the current management and situation. He has his cons but his pros what are we need now for rebuilding.

Personally, I don't think Ole can lead us back to the top. His idea is too biased towards Expressive football whereby the current top clubs are adopting more of Systematic football.

Getting our team to attack like an "arrowhead" is so much consistent than all the "single dart" attacking randomly. To do this, the manager has to box the players and repeat their actions over and over again. This is why our players look "clueless" when they are tired or overwhelmed. They are given too much room to think on their own. This is a gap where the opposition team has the opportunity to shock the team with an unexpected goal and switch to a defensive position. By then, it is even harder to score and a vicious cycle continues.

 

[Manutd GOGOGO]

That's not how it works either.

Ole: I want you to buy me Maquire.
Ed: Maquire will cost 80m making him the most expensive defender ever and will use up most of your transfer kitty meaning you wont have much to spend on other players, are you sure about this have you got any other alternatives?
Ole: No thats OK I still want you to get me Maquire

Thats how it works.

Really? Perhaps it could be something like this.

Ole: Ed, I like Maquire and I think he can greatly improve our defense. However, I am worried about the cost due to his English price tag.

Ed: No problem mate. We are the Disney of Football. We get players that other clubs can only dream of. Give me the list you need.

Ole: You are the man Ed.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

It's not and that's why Klopp turned it down. They earn millions from other top clubs and there is no need for them to come to United and lose their reputation. Not anymore. The owners are terrible as most people know now.

This is pretty much the point. A top class coach may not want to come because football is not the priority. Even if we were able to get one, it's unlikely he would be able to to implement his vision. The incompetence of Ed, Judge and the board would get in the way. The football would suffer, and whoever it was that was the coach would shoulder the blame and get sacked.

For what it's worth, I don't think Ole is the best in the world, but he has a unique skillset and connections that allow him to do a good job here. His connections and history with the club mean have helped him get the players and the fans onside. His mates in the media help himself and the club get fair coverage and he's been able so far to have a positive relationship with the board. He doesn't criticize them publicly, and they've appeared to get behind his vision and back him so far.

The situation so far in this window does not look ideal. The club have not been willing/able to give him the players he wants or get rid of those he doesn't. Having the players rest on their laurels, because there is no one to challenge them for a starting spot, or disgruntled players that aren't playing and aren't trusted by the manager creates a toxic dressing room environment.

The window hasn't yet closed, but if we don't strengthen it will be interesting to see how Ole will respond to not getting what he wanted. Would he be able to, at least publicly, resist criticizing Ed and co? Would the board show show confidence in him, even if the results are affected, if he can keep the players happy and motivated.

Hey everyone, remember that third place we got in the Premier League 8 weeks ago?

Remember how every manager in the "top6" has been backed properly except for Ole (so far)?

Why are you people jumping over yourselves to blame the manager before the season has even gotten properly underway?

We just had a season where we reached (and exceeded) the amibition for that season, and team sack the manager is gorging themselves like I've never seen before.

WHY?

Baffling, isn't it.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

I’ve been a massive Ole in fan and I still am but surely we can all agree now that if he fails to get top 4 this season he should be let go. You can point to the lack of signings and I agree it’s been disappointing but Ole has form much of the hard work in building a good team. He now has to go out and prove that he can get them playing well, regularly and getting results. If we fail to get top 4 I don’t see how we can claim any further progress has been made. For what it’s worth though, I still think we will have an very good season overall and be closer to challenge than a top 4 battle.

I'm not sure how we'll do, but having failed to strengthen I don't think it's fair to drop all the blame on Ole.

All a bit premature anyway. Let's see how the season goes before we get the pitchforks out

 

[simonhch]

In Ole’s first full season he:

- Recruited exceptionally well and cleared out some high paid deadwood and toxic influences.
- Has overseen a cultural reboot.
- Has generally played attractive, attacking football.
- Blooded multiple youngsters from the academy and brought the best out in some underperforming talented players.
- Come third in the league.
- Reached the semi finals of the FA Cup, Carabao Cup, and Europa League and done so with a thin squad.

He’s starting this season under the worst possible circumstances, with financial restrictions because of the pandemic, no preseason at all with the players, and very little recruitment from the board.

Unless we utterly implode this season, he’s earned this season and next as far as I’m concerned. We’ve made such positive strides under him. And no amount of knee jerking from fans after the Palace defeat, when we had a completely unfit squad, will change my mind. All he can hope go do is make it through the first month of the season without dropping too many points, because we are effectively playing our preseason through league games.

 

[Bobcat]

You've made a lot of good but very generic and out of context points. I don't mean to be harsh but I pretty much catagorically disagree with most of the main points you're making.

• A lot of people have been critiquing Ole's tactics from the get go. It was one of the first things I said even during that glorious first 2 months. It was incredibly gung-ho football with incredibly talented players playing without a leash against (let's be honest) average sides. We had freed Pogba higher up the pitch but once that initial momentum gone, we were struggling to get him the ball because it was still very basically coached football (we still persisted with Lingard as a no.10 who was essentially a non-contributing second striker ffs). We gave Ole benefit of the doubt because 'Pogba downed tools after new manager bounce', 'give Ole time to get his super high pressing, octane strategy, glorious Utd football of old', 'give Ole more players and a full summer'. Come new season, we got our players back to full fitness and with new players, demolish most sides in our stride with again our basic gung-ho football. As soon as we didn't have that extra spring in our step and teams nullfied our energy/tactical shape (e.g just sit back and pick us off), we looked incredibly out of sorts against any other half decently organised team.

• Now obviously Ole was unlucky with injuries and perhaps poor squad depth (only if you compare to the top half of the table) but the football and approach was still dire. I don't think any of us would have 'minded' if we were dominating/pressing teams into submission but getting beat by counter attacking goals/shithousery etc but it wasn't. It was evenly contested games against any slightly resilient side. At that point you would still criticise Ole (and lay 'blame' on the squad quality on the Ed/the board) but have more sympathy because he was getting the most of that group of players available last season (pre-covid/Jan) but he wasn't.

• Our last 20 games was entertaining, I enjoyed it a lot but again fundamentally it was plain to see, we were post-covid just an atheletically superior side (massive squad depth) with talented players playing against lesser opposition. I'm not one of those 'XNA vs FA' whatever stats guys but we were extremely clinical and Bruno was playing a blinder. We were and still am playing this hideously bad and loop sided 4-2-4 formation. Even in the games where we blitzed opposition e.g Bournmouth, Sheffield Utd etc, if you watched those games, we were playing with fire with their very weakly organised high press. Southampton was the game that confirmed it; they came to Old Trafford and at times made us just looked bad.

The thing is, I'm not nitpicking. These are not isolated examples. It presents a very consistent and familar theme.

• As for Brighton. It's not fair to compare their end of season results. The point is that they are able to get their team to play in a organised, effective manner with lesser players. It's not just them. Leeds, Sheffield United, Southampton, Everton, Chelsea last year during Lampard's first seaon in charge etc. I said it in another thread, looking at Ancelotti's team and his midfield set up this year, if we get dominated by their team in possession, it will tell you everything about Ole's progression or actual 'care' for this brand of footbal he talks about. You mention about having a plan and executing it, well those teams above have done it and done it consistently.

It's no point saying 'we've attacked well and scored lots of goals', 'we've pressed teams high' and therefore equate that to 'see Ole definitely wants to play this type of football'. Of course he does but what has he actually done to achieve it consistently? Why are we persisting with Pogba in the deepest two? Why would you have Lindelof with Maguire i.e not a compatible pair to play high line. Why is someone like Fred getting minimal minutes? Why don't he actually try to dominate midfield and 'forgo' a bit of width e.g play Fred/Matic in the cenre and have Pogba/Bruno in a narrow but wide playmaking positions? He has a wide range of players at his disposal that can play a wide range of roles and tactical set ups but have we actually seen anything that's beyond orthodox? The 'Ole needs xyz to implement this' is not good enough an excuse. Just look at those teams I and many have been mentioning above.

As for the Klopp example. Please just don't. It's not comparable. Look at that team he got into the Europa League final and the type of football he got playing. In a way he 'lucked out' with VVD and Allison and at the same time, he definitely did not. Everything he had done with the squad at his disposal would suggest the success of those transfers and how his team played afterwards is a massive justification of the foundations/coaching he had laid. It's not like his team was playing unorganised football. It was chaotic but high intensity football that elevated both the best and worst of the individuals. Case in point Lovren.

Can we say that for players under Ole? Yes to an extent and much credit to him, many of us are acknowledge he has done a fantastic job in terms of man management, having a clear idealogy, trying to bring in the right profile and having a certain ruthless streak (I unlike others will not criticise him for not getting rid enough of more 'deadwood' as I believe he has done as much as he can without basically ripping the squad apart). He deserves massive praise for his treatment/faith in Rashford/Martial/Greenwood/Pogba etc. However, on the pitch we should not be struggling to beat mid-table teams with our full strength first 11. We should not be still shitting our pants when we get pressed. We shouldn't be still relying on moments of brilliant individual play to create chances. Emphasis on chances, I'm not even talking about goals.

Compared to LVG, Ole has laid proper foundations and he will always get my respect (not that he doesn't have enough for his playing days) but right now it's clear his actual coaching is limited. This is not going to overturn overnight. I hope/pray I am wrong.

A lot of us are not OleIn or OleOut. We are just objectively looking at what's best for Utd. It's not about being ruthless, cold hearted or seeing the grass in greener on the other side.

Your last line is where a lot of us differ on. Benefit of the doubt should be giving in context. Off the pitch, arm around the shoulder, club ethnos = Ole is brilliant. On the pitch = Ole is very lacking based on everything we've seen.

Thanks for a thoughtful response. I dont agree with everything though

I dont put too much into his first half season. Not his winning run that landed him the job, nor the complete collapse at the end of the year either. Everyone would agree that the start of last season was pretty fecking dire, but it was a lot of factors that contributed towards that outside of just tactics. As you pointed out, we were forced to use the likes of Lindgard who contributes feck all at a PL level really and there was a lot going on behind the scenes at the time.

Also, saying we won loads post lockdown just because we were athletically superior is a bit unfair imo. By that logic you could say Liverpool and City, especially the latter are superior to most sides they face so the coaches can take no credit. I dont know about hideous formations, i genuinely enjoyed most of those performances and true we did not face the toughest teams in that period, but up util then it was exactly those teams that had given us most problems. The thing was though that since we had a huge point deficit to catch up we had to throw the kitchen sink at them. I also think its a bit unfair to say we have massive squad depth. We have a big squad alright, but outside the obvious first XI its not like we are spoiled for choice on who to throw on and change a game

And the points i made about high press football was just to illustrate that i firmly believe we dont have the right players to apply that kind of tactic right now. And maybe i was unclear, but i honestly dont know if Ole plans to implement a high pressing style as his end goal either. Imo, if we wanted to play high press with the current squad it would mean leaving out both Matic and Pogba.

When it comes to tactics/coaching, consistency just for the sake of consistency in tactical approach is not necessarily a good thing either. I know pundits love tit when a team (Soton, Brigton, Everton) etc have a easily identifiable of "brand" of football they play, they can that sit in the studio and point out how they play and then seem clever. The pros of that of course is that the players will become very familiar with the system and when you win you seem very well organized and well drilled. Football is a bit like rock, paper, scissors at times though so the drawback of sticking to your system no matter what is that you might end up in trouble if you face a team/manager that is capable of countering your system. I think Ole falls into the former category based on his decent record vs the big sides. Pros of that is of course that you have more tactical flexibility based on who you are playing. The drawback is that it takes players much longer to familiarize themselves with such a "system", it places a lot more responsibility on the players and of course you always has a risk of getting in completely wrong and you will end up with egg on your face.

The formation you mentioned with Bruno/Pogba as wide playmakers and Fred/Matic and achors in the midfield would undoubtedly make us more solid down the middle of the pitch, but since both Bruno and Pogba feels most at home down the middle, i think that would make us incredibly narrow .And i was not really comparing him with Klopp. i just used him as an example to illustrate that high press football needs both a lot of coaching to and the right type of players to be applied effectively.

One thing i fully agree on though, that has been bothering me from day 1 is that we should not be getting brown trousers every time someone presses us. The key to beating a high press is getting your midfield involved in the right way. Just speculating here, but i think Oles plan is having Matic/Pogba stay deep-ish when we play out from the back to help out the CB's and bring the ball forward in an effective manner. This whole plan though is entirely dependent Pogba being in form. When in form he can shrug of pretty much any attempt at a tackle and ping a precise pass forward. If the other team have committed a lot of players forward then to press us, they would have left loads of space for Bruno and the forwards to exploit. Right now though, Pogba is in dire form so instead of getting the ball forward he loses possession instead. With that in mind i think we can agree Ole was a bit naive vs Palace and Brigton because its pretty obvious that Pogba is in terrible form right now so the whole house of cards collapses when he plays such an important role. Maybe Ole thought giving him game time was worth the risk to get him match fit sooner, but as i said, just speculating

 

[Anustart89]

Hey everyone, remember that third place we got in the Premier League 8 weeks ago?

Remember how every manager in the "top6" has been backed properly except for Ole (so far)?

Why are you people jumping over yourselves to blame the manager before the season has even gotten properly underway?

We just had a season where we reached (and exceeded) the amibition for that season, and team sack the manager is gorging themselves like I've never seen before.

WHY?

Because some people can analyse a situation beyond “what position did we end in”, perhaps? It’s the same in the is the defence fixed thread. When people criticise the defensive side of our team you inevitably get people jumping in saying “but look at the number of goals conceded!!!” as if the only metric by which to judge a team is the amount of points achieved, the number of goals scored or conceded, and not what you can see with your eyes.

If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Can’t win if you’re trying to make an argument against Ole. If we’re doing well in terms of points (which I would disagree with, as 58% of total points is not good in terms of where we want to be, but because we ended in third place it’s suddenly a great achievement) you’re complaining that we should shut up since we’re doing well, and if we’re doing poorly we’re just jumping on a bandwagon.

If you are to decide, when is an appropriate time for someone to criticise various aspects of Ole’s management? In success, in failure or when are we allowed to voice our opinions? Surely when “doing well” is better if the criticism is nuanced as it isn’t emotionally charged, right? But obviously you don’t approve of that, so when will you approve negative opinion?

 

[Tom Cato]

Because some people can analyse a situation beyond “what position did we end in”, perhaps? It’s the same in the is the defence fixed thread. When people criticise the defensive side of our team you inevitably get people jumping in saying “but look at the number of goals conceded!!!” as if the only metric by which to judge a team is the amount of points achieved, the number of goals scored or conceded, and not what you can see with your eyes.

If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Can’t win if you’re trying to make an argument against Ole. If we’re doing well in terms of points (which I would disagree with, as 58% of total points is not good in terms of where we want to be, but because we ended in third place it’s suddenly a great achievement) you’re complaining that we should shut up since we’re doing well, and if we’re doing poorly we’re just jumping on a bandwagon.

"Clueless"
"Out of his depth"
"Got no tactics"
"Braindead"
"Doesn't know how to use subs"
"Tactically inept".

These are just some of the highlihts of the Ole out discussion

And, you're not really making an argument for how the team improve, you're just making an argument for why the manager needs to be sacked and Pochettino or Nagelsmann needs to come in and make everything better. Those aren't arguments, they are "Grass is greener" statements.

It's the same posters that lament Lingard, Mata, Pereira and Dan James for being terrible, but when Ole has to play them because we lack depth or have injuries, he's the clueless one.

Which one is it? You can't have your scuky sandwich and blame everyone.

What exactly are you analyzing here? That we've struggled against inferior teams this season?

Last season the point total accumulated was blamed on luck and other teams sucking. Like B*TCH are they not competing in the same league? The position is based on level playingfield. It is irrelevant.

Wolverhampton and Manchester City ended the season about the same time as we did. And they both got annihilated by "inferior" teams.. A very, very funny coincidence that both those teams look absolutely shot while we are supposed to look great with a 2 week pre-season under our belt, where some first teamers haven't even participated.

I just know that the DVB should have started argument is going to come. But it's fairly easy to be wise after the fact isn't ti. DVB isn't a bettere player than Paul Pogba to begin with, so of course he wasn't going to get the nod. Pogba struggled and DVB came on. Pogba gets given a chance to redeem himself, struggles, Pogba comes on. DVS startes next gameweek, Pogba starts on the bench. That is what is happening.

As for the bolded. This is how you judge a team. I mean.. points decide where you are in the table.

But, I'll give you this nugget beacause this is the circle argument that always gets me:

"I don't mind ending up fith as long as we play entertaining football, than come 3rd and play bad football". - Let me make my own argument here: The team gets third plays better football than the team that comes 5th. If they got more points, they were better, end of story. And we're not palying park the bus football either, the wast majority of games, we have superior possession, another example from confirmation bias wonderland.

"If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Well thing is, we haven't endedd up 6th, we finished third. We have 36 games to go of the season. I have legitimately never seen this amount of negativity before the season is even underway, and that is to a manager that has so far been backed less than managers in competing clubs this window.

Maybe be a bit critical of the board? All I'm seeing is a bunch of blaming the cause of the reason.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Because some people can analyse a situation beyond “what position did we end in”, perhaps? It’s the same in the is the defence fixed thread. When people criticise the defensive side of our team you inevitably get people jumping in saying “but look at the number of goals conceded!!!” as if the only metric by which to judge a team is the amount of points achieved, the number of goals scored or conceded, and not what you can see with your eyes.

If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Can’t win if you’re trying to make an argument against Ole. If we’re doing well in terms of points (which I would disagree with, as 58% of total points is not good in terms of where we want to be, but because we ended in third place it’s suddenly a great achievement) you’re complaining that we should shut up since we’re doing well, and if we’re doing poorly we’re just jumping on a bandwagon.

If you are to decide, when is an appropriate time for someone to criticise various aspects of Ole’s management? In success, in failure or when are we allowed to voice our opinions? Surely when “doing well” is better if the criticism is nuanced as it isn’t emotionally charged, right? But obviously you don’t approve of that, so when will you approve negative opinion?

It's annoying as hell how some people want to bring silly stuff like defense performance goals and chances conceded over a season to argue against the science backed criteria of "what you see with your eyes". Now we are supposed to look at the league position or general improvement over the course of the season? What about feelings? Some people are weird man.

 

[TheRedDevil2019]

Because some people can analyse a situation beyond “what position did we end in”, perhaps? It’s the same in the is the defence fixed thread. When people criticise the defensive side of our team you inevitably get people jumping in saying “but look at the number of goals conceded!!!” as if the only metric by which to judge a team is the amount of points achieved, the number of goals scored or conceded, and not what you can see with your eyes.

If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Can’t win if you’re trying to make an argument against Ole. If we’re doing well in terms of points (which I would disagree with, as 58% of total points is not good in terms of where we want to be, but because we ended in third place it’s suddenly a great achievement) you’re complaining that we should shut up since we’re doing well, and if we’re doing poorly we’re just jumping on a bandwagon.

If you are to decide, when is an appropriate time for someone to criticise various aspects of Ole’s management? In success, in failure or when are we allowed to voice our opinions? Surely when “doing well” is better if the criticism is nuanced as it isn’t emotionally charged, right? But obviously you don’t approve of that, so when will you approve negative opinion?

That's exactly what you are doing though. Bandwagon jumping...

Is it Ole's fault that he's inherited players like Bailey and Pogba who appear to spend more time on the injury table or out of form then hitting the highs expected?
Is it Ole's fault some players lack the attitude and desired ambition to represent Manchester United, spending more time on social media? (Aka Lingard).
Is it Ole's fault we have an inept board?

I don't judge on points, I judge on the style of football and if European football is achieved. To this end, Ole has probably over-achieved due to the squad and issues he had to resolve. For year's we've played piss poor football, lost sight of the morals, culture, and ideology that contributed greatly to the success we had under Sir Alex, whilst had toxic keyboard warriors scream like desperate banshees for Ole Out.

It's frankly embarrassing and does NOT represent what the match goers believe (us fans that pay our money and actually matter). This entitlement from a minority of frankly impatient glory hunters is getting boring. It's the same every other week. Go support Liverpool if you're not prepared to get on board and support what is happening here.

It won't be overnight, but I can accept that. Given the dross I have witnessed in the previous 6 seasons before Ole came in, I see far more positivity at the club for the first time probably since SAF left. The atmosphere at Old Trafford on matchdays has improved so much. At last, we have a vision in terms of trying to play football that fits in with the history of the club and a transfer strategy that supports it. If not for a lacklustre board I feel Manchester United could be back where we belong within the next 2/3 seasons.

 

[Verminator]

Because some people can analyse a situation beyond “what position did we end in”, perhaps? It’s the same in the is the defence fixed thread. When people criticise the defensive side of our team you inevitably get people jumping in saying “but look at the number of goals conceded!!!” as if the only metric by which to judge a team is the amount of points achieved, the number of goals scored or conceded, and not what you can see with your eyes.

If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Can’t win if you’re trying to make an argument against Ole. If we’re doing well in terms of points (which I would disagree with, as 58% of total points is not good in terms of where we want to be, but because we ended in third place it’s suddenly a great achievement) you’re complaining that we should shut up since we’re doing well, and if we’re doing poorly we’re just jumping on a bandwagon.

If you are to decide, when is an appropriate time for someone to criticise various aspects of Ole’s management? In success, in failure or when are we allowed to voice our opinions? Surely when “doing well” is better if the criticism is nuanced as it isn’t emotionally charged, right? But obviously you don’t approve of that, so when will you approve negative opinion?

Funny how your metric for success was league position, but when that was achieved, you switched to percentage of possible points.
You have laid out your stall, and you are sticking with it. Why you feel the need to continually bang the drum, I don't know.



Maybe you could take a rest, and go looking for some positive energy.

From January 4th

We're definitely not getting Top 4 with Ole in charge. We're just too badly coached as a team to have the consistency required to catch up and stay in the top 4. Even with a couple new players in January, I'd say we won't get top 4 with Ole.

So essentially we have two scenarios
a) Keep Ole, +/- invest in players, miss out on CL
b) Sack Ole, invest in a new manager, +/- invest in players, potentially gain CL.

If we choose option a), we're not going to be able to recruit players to take us into the top 4 anytime soon, thus we'll have committed to staying out of the top 4 for the foreseeable future. If we choose option b), we might be able to attract players by having the pulling power of a top manager or by virtue of being in the CL. If we manage to get ourselves in the CL then the economic gain will offset the one lost by sacking and hiring managers, plus putting us in a better position to strengthen the team come summer.

In all likelihood, we won't buy any players in January. Ole will stay until summer, we'll have a shit season, lose out on the CL, buy Sean Longstaff, Declan Rice and Wilf Zaha in the summer and then the hierarchy will be scratching their heads at how they managed to become a mid-table team.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

It's annoying as hell how some people want to bring silly stuff like defense performance goals and chances conceded over a season to argue against the science backed criteria of "what you see with your eyes". Now we are supposed to look at the league position or general improvement over the course of the season? What about feelings? Some people are weird man.

Yeah, it's crazy. Two games into the season and Ole is already clueless and tactically inept. Again.

 

[Matriac]

Yeah, it's crazy. Two games into the season and Ole is already clueless and tactically inept. Again.

No no, he's always been, it's just that the streak from February and the 3 wins over City and Chelsea masked the truth! We only won because of individual qualities! No patterns of tactical systems or press was seen!

 

[Verminator]

No no, he's always been, it's just that the streak from February and the 3 wins over City and Chelsea masked the truth! We only won because of individual qualities! No patterns of tactical systems or press was seen!

So who do you blame when we lose?
Or are you being sarcastic?

 

[Matriac]

So who do you blame when we lose?

Tykhe?

Depends on how we lose, there's no default scapegoat for all situations.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Apart from LVG I don't think most of the others were that bad. Fellaini served his purpose. Lukaku was very good during the year we came second. Herrera was good too. Lindelof is a good back up and I agree that neither Bailly nor him has been a success so far. Mata was not a success for me and I really wonder why he is still here. Dalot I think was a junior player? Sanchez I still feel is an Edward buy and Mikhi was a disappointment I agree.

Not a single transfer has been a Woodward transfer IMO, Mourinho desperately wanted Sanchez.

 

[jackal&hyde]

Tykhe?

Depends on how we lose, there's no default scapegoat for all situations.

But life would be so much easier that way

 

[Skåre Willoch]

No no, he's always been, it's just that the streak from February and the 3 wins over City and Chelsea masked the truth! We only won because of individual qualities! No patterns of tactical systems or press was seen!

Ah, that's true.
I can't wait for the players to decide that they want to start winning comfortably and play fun attacking football again. They have to get tired of losing and/or playing bad, surely.
I don't get why they would agree to do that between them in the first place, but I'm sure they have reasons.
Like Maguire and Lindelöf, they'll get tired of letting in goals and start keeping clean sheets instead because they decide to do so.
And De Gea? His performance art-thing with suddenly performing bad over an extended period of time has to end soon.

I simply can't wait for the individuals start acting like proper individuals without a system or plan again!

 

[Matriac]

So who do you blame when we lose?
Or are you being sarcastic?

Your edit came in after my reply.
Yes. I was being sarcastic. It's become my default state in this specific thread.

 

[Mainoldo]

That's exactly what you are doing though. Bandwagon jumping...

Is it Ole's fault that he's inherited players like Bailey and Pogba who appear to spend more time on the injury table or out of form then hitting the highs expected?
Is it Ole's fault some players lack the attitude and desired ambition to represent Manchester United, spending more time on social media? (Aka Lingard).
Is it Ole's fault we have an inept board?

I don't judge on points, I judge on the style of football and if European football is achieved. To this end, Ole has probably over-achieved due to the squad and issues he had to resolve. For year's we've played piss poor football, lost sight of the morals, culture, and ideology that contributed greatly to the success we had under Sir Alex, whilst had toxic keyboard warriors scream like desperate banshees for Ole Out.

It's frankly embarrassing and does NOT represent what the match goers believe (us fans that pay our money and actually matter). This entitlement from a minority of frankly impatient glory hunters is getting boring. It's the same every other week. Go support Liverpool if you're not prepared to get on board and support what is happening here.

It won't be overnight, but I can accept that. Given the dross I have witnessed in the previous 6 seasons before Ole came in, I see far more positivity at the club for the first time probably since SAF left. The atmosphere at Old Trafford on matchdays has improved so much. At last, we have a vision in terms of trying to play football that fits in with the history of the club and a transfer strategy that supports it. If not for a lacklustre board I feel Manchester United could be back where we belong within the next 2/3 seasons.

Sounds like you want a culture change.

 

[Leftback99]

Because some people can analyse a situation beyond “what position did we end in”, perhaps? It’s the same in the is the defence fixed thread. When people criticise the defensive side of our team you inevitably get people jumping in saying “but look at the number of goals conceded!!!” as if the only metric by which to judge a team is the amount of points achieved, the number of goals scored or conceded, and not what you can see with your eyes.

If people were quiet now and just commented when we end up in sixth you will be there saying look at that, a couple of losses/6th place finish/many goals conceded and all you Ole out-people creep out of your caves”.

Can’t win if you’re trying to make an argument against Ole. If we’re doing well in terms of points (which I would disagree with, as 58% of total points is not good in terms of where we want to be, but because we ended in third place it’s suddenly a great achievement) you’re complaining that we should shut up since we’re doing well, and if we’re doing poorly we’re just jumping on a bandwagon.

If you are to decide, when is an appropriate time for someone to criticise various aspects of Ole’s management? In success, in failure or when are we allowed to voice our opinions? Surely when “doing well” is better if the criticism is nuanced as it isn’t emotionally charged, right? But obviously you don’t approve of that, so when will you approve negative opinion?

Where was your 'analysis' in this thread when we were winning games after the restart? It's odd that these issues are only there when you don't like the final score.

There is plenty of issues for sensible discussion of where we can improve and mistakes Solskjaer is making but in here everything has to be a sackable offence.

 

[TheRedDevil2019]

Sounds like you want a culture change.

Oh look, its the biggest troll on the caf. *Yawns*