There should be no argument. Poch is a better coach than Ole easily. But Ole has done a good job at rebuilding this team to the point we are close to having a squad capable of winning major trophies. Which is why if he is sacked any time from now, we should be looking at a manager who can win us trophies. Looking at Pochettino, his CV suggests he's not the answer. Do people who rate Pochettino highly think he can take us to the next level of winning major trophies and why?
Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)
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Yeah, 3rd place trophy and 3 semi finals trophies are better. Not to mention nearly rescued Cardiff from relegation trophy
Are you doing that on purpose ? Did I say all of those were bad signings ?
I said - 3 were excellent. I said 5-6 were good - like Moura, like Dier, like Davies and a few others.
But if you sign 27 players over 4 or so years - and 3 of them turns out to be excellent, 6 of them turns out to be good, and the rest is average or worse. Then your transfer record is appalling.
Davinson Sanchez has not been a very good signing for £40 million - he hasn't been bad, but he has been at Spurs for 4 years - and he still looks a liability. Eric Dier and Ben Davies are good signings for the price paid, but they are not good enough to play for a topclub.
Lo Celso and Ndombele - I dont write them off - but I judge them on what I have seen so far. Lo Celso has been quite good, Ndombele a disaster. But they can of course improve (with a better manager than Pochettino)
Llorente ? Are you joking ? 2 goals in 36 matches.
Aurier ? Are you joking ? He has had one good game in his Spurs-career, against us
How about N'Jie, Stambouli, Jansen, Fazio, Nkoudou, Yedlin, Wimmer, Foyth
Nothing but love for OGS.
I love Ole Gunnar as a player and a person but he is outdated. He cannot manage a player bought for £100m plus. He does not know what it means to play with that type of pressure. His cumulated fees amount to 17 Norwegian krones. That is also part of the reason we did not sign Sancho.
Plain and simple, Ole Gunnar's peak took place in the 90s. He belongs there as a club legend.
I love Ole Gunnar as a player and a person but he is outdated. He cannot manage a player bought for £100m plus. He does not know what it means to play with that type of pressure. His cumulated fees amount to 17 Norwegian krones. That is also part of the reason we did not sign Sancho.
Plain and simple, Ole Gunnar's peak took place in the 90s. He belongs there as a club legend.
About to win the league
keep
keep
1/6, 1/4 etc...i understood that it is good/bad signing ratio. My bad.
But as i said, i don't think that his signing record was bad.
Whether you 'stand by your manager' is a different question as to whether one Manager may be better than another. Look at Ancelotti's record (forget his rather immediate impact on what was an extremely average Everton team...), it's very impressive, in anyone's standards, he is a winner of Trophies and Titles, and yet he was out of work when we had OGS. So what does that prove, a manager being out of work. Maybe it's actually out of choice?
I stand by OGS, because I am a fan, and he is a legend. But that's it. Because what I have seen, depsite huge amounts of monies spent, is a group of players, still inconsistent, and football which lacks identity. How on Earth do we play under OGS? On the break? Quick? Slow? Press? Possession based? Hit the forwards early? Flying wing-backs?
I have no idea. None.
They could have had Grealish for £25 million. They submitted a bid of £7m. On that alone you have way too many >>
What and you think that has really happened and that he’s holding out for the United job?
It’s identical in importance, identical.
Plus Ole has won actual trophies in his native country. Nothing major I know but there’s more in Ole’s trophy cabinet, as a player and manager.
If you really believe no big club in Europe wanted him when considering a new manager? Then yes!
The thing with Ole is -
That even last season he had that poor start to a season which gradually got better as the season progressed up until we were one of the dangerous teams in England.
Whilst I'm frustrated with some of his tactics- if he can redo that this season then I've really got nothing to complain about.
I'm not a fan who thinks this club is PL winning yet so my expectations for him is relatively on par with his players. There is a very small chance we can win it due to this season looking all over the place for alot of the clubs.
If he has a season like last season where the team progresses the more we play then sacking him during that wouldn't be the best of ideas. However if we dont see that progress, that improvement of us as a team during a season then Ole shouldn't be the manager anymore.
I am frustrated with some of his decisions but I feel it's a bit too early to bring a hammer down on him and the club just to bring another manager who will be expected to meet the expectations that Ole should be able to meet.
That even last season he had that poor start to a season which gradually got better as the season progressed up until we were one of the dangerous teams in England.
Whilst I'm frustrated with some of his tactics- if he can redo that this season then I've really got nothing to complain about.
I'm not a fan who thinks this club is PL winning yet so my expectations for him is relatively on par with his players. There is a very small chance we can win it due to this season looking all over the place for alot of the clubs.
If he has a season like last season where the team progresses the more we play then sacking him during that wouldn't be the best of ideas. However if we dont see that progress, that improvement of us as a team during a season then Ole shouldn't be the manager anymore.
I am frustrated with some of his decisions but I feel it's a bit too early to bring a hammer down on him and the club just to bring another manager who will be expected to meet the expectations that Ole should be able to meet.
We won 4-1 less than 48 hours ago, and yet OleOUTers are still polluting this thread with their negativity and moaning. Most insist they will never change their minds. I don't care if they do or don't. Its their life experience and choice. But be aware that has negative consequences for our team.
The difference between us is my views don't cause toxic negativity seeking to destabilise the club. My validation does not require the team to do badly and lose many consecutive games. My views are based on recent facts and not some vague desire based on my hunch. The squad and manager are aware that OleOUTers exist, and have to spend time and energy dealing with that negativity. I keep asking 'How is that supporting a team' but have never gotten an answer.
The vast majority of football fans never ever experience their team winning the league and my footballing happiness is not dependent on that. I enjoy the ups and the downs and the entire journey. It's a great thrill to see something being shaped. When we lose our next match, Im sure OleOUTers will tag me in their posts, giddy with happiness that we lost. But what you don't seem to understand is I can't lose. I enjoy every moment of Ole's journey, hope it ends well, and when he does eventually leave, I'll move onto the next.
In answer to your last question: I do not believe that Poch can do any better than Ole at Manchester United terms of league position and certainly not in the cups (with the same resources). So I dont see zero point in replacing Ole with Poch. Poch is not a winner. Never has been. Never will be.
This.
Just after finishing 3rd in the league, and here we are still talking about a Ex spurs manager who has won square root of nothing.
People must be on the wind up. Would understand if this was Moyes just before he was going to be sacked, but the manager is not under any pressure at all imo.
If you where read this thread you think he was about to get the axe and Poch the proven winner just sitting on ice just waiting on the call.
And we could have bought Haaland in 2018 for pennies (Ole even invited a United scout to a game where he scored 4 in 21 minutes), but we decided not to
As i said, Levy is a tight arse, but there is no denying hes got a knack for doing some really shrewd business. I cant think of a single transfer we've made since 2013 that was real good value
My point was that there were people in here talking about how pretty much every team in world wanted Pochettino. And still nobody made him manager despite lots of teams changing managers. He couldn't have declined every chance to be manager for top team to become our manager? Or could he?
Ancelotti is a great manager.
Our tactics and identity are not that transparent as some manager and teams have. But that takes time to implement and what are tactics in a bigger picture? Can you say how Everton play, now that you mentioned Anchelotti? What is Guardiola tactic except passing ball until the opposite team faint? Klopp? Arteta? Lampard? Mourinho in Tottenham, beside giving ball to Kane/Son? When you sitt down and think about it you will see there is lot of little elements in every team and how they play. You'll see that it also is different from game to game. It is not about one given tactic.
Nice post.
Its something I absolutely hate - the unnecessary hate that our fans put in to our club because they feel like they deserve something. They deserve to be treated like the biggest club in the world or whatever bullshit.
I said this in the Klopp thread; people can blame Woodward and Disney for all they want for the reason of him not coming here - but there was no chance he would join us because of this pressure that's within the club to be doing things a certain way, to achieve things in a certain way and within a certain time.
It's just unnecessary and the fans put this stupid negative pressure expecting us to always be the SAF run club we once were.
How many times have we seen fans complain about Rashford being not good enough? How they want to burst his bubble or whatever bollocks. Greenwood now for some random reason. I get better respect for decent legends like Rooney on my toilet paper due to him once wanting to leave and him deteriorating towards the end of his career.
I genuinely feel like some people support this club as a boost of their personal ego and wants rather than giving a supporting hand through thick and thin.
How old was he 16? Did we make a bid? Did our manager say he wanted him?
Yes thought not.
Bruno Fernandez and Donny Van De Beek.
He was 18, no we did not make a bid. Jose probably did not know who he was
Point is, cant lambast Levy for bidding 7 million for Grealish when Haaland was bought for the same sum by Salztburg, and the latter is much more valuable
If I remember correctly, allegedly Raiola wanted, and succeeded in adding a £50M release clause inserted into the Haaland contract, which triggers after 2 seasons.
We can get Haaland for £50M no questions asked in a season or two.
We are Manchester United and we don't insert ridiculous clauses into contracts like that.
Interesting response. And in response, er, yes. I can definitely see how Ancelotti has already impressed upon the players and staff at Everton, a style and identity to their play, of course he has. He has got rid of some players, and improved some, hugely. Guardiola is different class, how you can even question whether his teams have an identity is an almost bizarre statement. Klopp has. Arteta too, already setting up Arsenal in his way, although that is taking a little more time. But you can see it. Mourinho is trying his thing at Spurs, we saw it at Man Utd. Boring, resilient, and efficient, and with 'big players' providing the odd moment of class. It's out of date, difficult for players to sustain, and lacks risk... but it is the Mourinho way.
Conversely, Lampard's Chelsea do not have an identity yet, you can tell his frustration, and some may say, his limitations. We wait and see.
So, back to OGS..... what on earth is the OGS way?
OGS is similar to Southgate. Right place, right time, and saying the corporate line to the media. But do they even know what they are trying to do? Really?
Pochettino went to a champions league final without Kane and also still made top four. He has shown the capacity to adapt without Kane. Moreover, Pochettino developed Kane into the striker he is, so it wasn’t like he went in and bought a world class talent. Rashford, Greenwood, Gomes, januzaj, Wilson, etc were all rated much higher than Kane at the youth level.
What Poch got wasn’t enough as it was shown when Mourinho spent much more in the two window that followed. Similar to how Chelsea went a season without a signing and then spent a fortune in the next, Spurs should have done the same, but what Poch got was just a small fraction of what he should be spending. If Poch had gotten Coutinho or Bruno as he wanted,he would not have gotten sacked. Even then, his signing especially N’Dombele and lo Celso has been good signing for Spurs.These players you mentioned that Ole developed has always been highly rated.
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You are mixing up what you think you see and what tactics really are. "Boring, resilient, and efficient, and with 'big players' providing the odd moment of class" are not tactics. They are a feeling you have. Tactics are more based on positions, movement of the ball, patterns of running, what kind of task every player have in team, how do you want to defend, how do you attack, pressing high - low, no pressing, and so on.
I'm not questioning Guardiola and his identity. But tell me how his team exactly play except that they rely on posession? What kind of running patterns Aguero have? What does Foden bring? Is Mahrez always floating inside or is he holding a wider position? Not that easy right? That is because people say what they think they see. What is Arteta way? What is Anchelotti? I'm curious because you are seeing it despite both of them changing how they play between games until now.
People loves to talk about tactics but what are they? Are they also same every game? Is identity and tactic the same?
Ok I can stretch to ‘he’s been approached’ by major clubs, what I don’t buy is he’s turned them down for United when the club is steadfastly standing by Ole, even more so prior to this start of the season.
Do you believe Ed is in Poch’s ear saying ‘ah just ignore those big clubs mate, the jobs yours when Ole fecks up!’ ??
Like I said I believe what I said as much as you believe he hasn’t been approached by the big teams. So if you now don’t believe what you said earlier and non of them wasn’t interested. Then I don’t believe we’ve told him to wait the job is definitely yours.
Yes. This has always been the case in my view and also the reason why I find the constant review of his leadership so pointless and frustrating.
Its clear that we are progressing since his appointment. The strength of the squad has improved, the football is generally more pleasing to the eye, the consistency in results has been there (early season unfit brainfarts aside), increased focus on signing talented youth, back in the Champions League.
Everybody's made their feelings about Ole completely clear. He isnt going anywhere anytime soon unless we completely fall to pieces, and he deserves to be our manager as long as this progress continues to happen. Progress should be measured over longer periods of time than one win or one defeat.
Well if he had been approached by multiple big clubs then why would he reject them?Like I said I believe what I said as much as you believe he hasn’t been approached by the big teams. So if you now don’t believe what you said earlier and non of them wasn’t interested. Then I don’t believe we’ve told him to wait the job is definitely yours.
What your suggesting is he must be waiting for us, surely?
I think he’s a smart man. I’m sure he loves the Prem and right about now there’s two big clubs with suspect guys claiming to be doing rebuilds and a fraud yet to sign a new contract. He’ll be back in a job before the end of the season.Well if he had been approached by multiple big clubs then why would he reject them?
What your suggesting is he must be waiting for us, surely?
Yeah me too.
It's okay to feel frustrated at Ole, his coaching or tactics like I do at times. Hell it's even okay to talk about other managers on a football forum.
However, some of our fans have this urgency, this big pressure to give up soon as things turn grey for a week or two; to bring on a change as quick as possible aswell. Its seen with the way they talk about the manager and even some players. They also feel like this isnt felt at the club simply because their behind an internet when talking about it but it is.
Whether people like it or not, Ole has shown that he deserves a full season. We were just as crap at the start of last season but he managed to turn it around and improve the squad and results bit by bit as the season progressed. It wasnt Pochettino. If Ole can do it again then fair be it we have progressed. If he cant and we look dire as the season progresses towards the end then let him go and get the best manager available at the time.
Spurs net spend over the 5 years Poch was there was £100m. Ours is almost £500m and that's not including wages or agents fees which are astronomically higher than Spurs. I wonder how Ole would get on having an average of £20m net spend per season? So maybe Poch isn't as bad as many people make out.
Thank you!I’ve been wondering why we didn’t sign him!
Lets just dismiss the astronomical increase in player fees and how much over the odds Utd have to pay to get top player. Let’s pretend Fulham, Aston Villa and now Leeds didn’t spend 100 mill either. It changes narrative way to much.
The figures I've quoted are in the same time frame so I'm not dismissing the increase in players fees because at the time it was the same all across the board. Is there a United tax? Of course there is thanks to Ed but my point is while United can afford to shop in Harrods, Poch had to do with the special offer section down his local tescos and was still getting consistent top 4.
He spent more money than he ever done last season so why did Poch failed last season then? He signed what you called good signings like N’Dombele & Lo Celso so why the players failed him then? Good signings should improve the last season squad and yet they made the team worse and the manager sacked.
Son, Kane, Ali, Eriksen, Vertonghen, Aldeweireld and etc are also highly rated like Scott, Fred, Rashfor, Martial and etc. End of the day highly rated players will still need to be developed & making improvement, they don’t just go become star right away because Mourinho couldn’t develop & improve them but Ole could and has done it.
Oh yes - it was. Just because our under a few of our managers was worse, doesn't mean his was good. Liverpool spent the same as Spurs.
Fair question. He did spend his entire career here surrounded by a horde of players who made 'true winner' sacrifices. A few things he's done - or rumored to have done - are really big indicators that he does know.
Regarding the poorly performing players you mentioned:
A. he largley has no choice. B. If Romano is to be believed, Pogba was gone to Juve were it not for Covid19. If that's true, then it's a pretty big sign Ole knows how bad Pogba is for the club. (If this is true then this is huge. It's a really really really reaaaaaaaaally big plus in Ole's direction. He understands how Pogba is not just a problem on the pitch and the locker room and to the up and coming youth teams but also what Pogba is in the politcal game between the 'footballing people' and the board.) To a much lesser extent ditto regarding Martial 'our-Pele-omg-omg-go-soccer-I-mean-football-amirite-sincerely-Joel-Derp-Glazer' and Ole has to play politics there (plus to be fair, Martial did really well). His hands are tied regarding Shaw as well; it's not exactly easy to move Shaw on at 150-195k/w whichever one is true. And that's aside from any potential discussion whether Telles is an effort to replace Shaw.
The bottom line is that nothing he's said about them is out of line with a manager trying to be diplomatic regarding huge ball-and-chains that he may or may not feel he's been saddled with. (Personally I suspect he's okay with Martial)
Hrm. I thought I'd seen you pointing out that Ole has to be diplomatic/political and can't also say what he truly thinks.
Anyway, don't discount that he might agree in a large part (80-100%) with Keane. It's not right to just go on what each man is saying in public. My money's on Ole largely agreeing with Keane. He just can't say so.
Also, different true winners express themselves differently and make different sacrifices. Keane's I-will-straight-up-murder-you thing isn't the only expression. Giggs 'I don't care if people call me a fairy I'm doing yoga', Park 'yeah I was up for an award with fecking Ronaldinho but I'll take a bench role', Cole and Sheringham hating each others' guts, Rooney on the left, Scholes' sorry-but-I-don't-really-give-a-feck vs the veritable army of servile agents who would have been falling all over themselves to 'represent' him etc. Remember the Berbatov interview where he talks about how stoked he was to win the title and how surprised he was the next day in training when everyone was almost nonchalant - no parties, etc. Rio's account of how SAF pointed out how the playing staff's true employers weren't the club or the money men but the people who slaved away during the week to watch their heroes on the weekend, Evra's recent intimation that he gave up a huge chunk of his home life etc.
Basically, Keane's approach isn't the only or 'best' expression of winner sacrifice.
Bolded part's actually the opposite of what I'm saying. I don't want this sign-everyone-for-80m+ any more than you do.
I'm asking if Ole manages to build a SAF/Klopp-type squad of several worldies and a cohort of grafters, but he's still showing these 'tactical deficiencies' would you walk back from your current position to something like 'Ok, just hire a better first team coach and handle the overall man management'?[/QUOTE]
Poch and Ole have won the same amount of trophies in the English league. To me it speaks volumes that he is still out of work. Just maybe he is over hyped?
Not really, he's clearly a top coach and is waiting for a top job to become free. How many top clubs have needed a manager since he got fired? I can only think of Real Madrid. It's not like he's going to take charge of Nottingham Forest.
Pochettino is overrated on here.
I am in the Ole out camp but people who think Pochettino is the answer are just following the media narrative of him.
I would actually put Brendan Rodgers ahead of him. Not saying I want Brendan here but he is better than Poch.
Eventually United will have to appoint a new manager because Ole is not what will move us forward. He has one way of playing football which is counter attack and I despise him for it.
Spent all summer chasing Sancho, when in fact this team needs a player who can break down parked defences and Grealish was available before his new contract.
Are we also saying McTominnay is the future CDM an area we are seriously lacking? I don't see anything in McTominnays game to suggest he is suited for that role.
He may well be overrated on here but I was addressing the point that Poch is overrated because he hasn’t got a job yet, which makes little sense.
The next challenge for Ole is consistency. We need to stop the cycle of one bad result leading to a run of several more immediately afterwards. That has been an issue since he took over. When something goes wrong the confidence seems to crumble and we go on a run of form that is abject to say the least. I certainly don't think he is a bad as many have made out but on the other hand is he as good as others have suggested? The jury remains out on him but this season will be make or break, if we aren't finishing top four this season then I think there's every reason to say it's not working out. Liverpool are certainly weaker without VVD and we really should be making inroads into the gap in quality between us and them.
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