Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[Igor Drefljak]

Are the owners good enough? No
Are Woodward and Judge good enough? No
Is the manager good enough? No
Is this team good enough? No

I'm in that 25%, but I also was before the start of the season. Ole isn't a top manager, but the fact is, we've been fecking awful in every aspect of this club for years. It won't change overnight if we got rid of Ole. It may help if we got rid of them clowns up stairs, but neither the board or Ed and Matt are leaving, so we'll always be a joke.

Yet for some reason, complaining about the manager? No no no

 

[dove]

Fair enough if you don't think Ole is the answer in the long run to bring success back to this club but if you think he is the issue or sacking him would change our fortunes you're an idiot and very blind to the big issues we have,

There is not 1 coach on this planet you could bring in right that would make us title contenders again, even Klopp, the problem lies way beyond that, there is 1 man behind every single season of failure in the last 7 and that's Ed Woodward, followed by the Glazers, there is no plan or platform for a manager at this club to achieve titles and win competitions , even when a manager tries to create one he isn't backed by the people that matter so how on earth are they supposed to succeed ?

Let's not kid ourselves, TOP manager would make us title contenders in a few years as we have a starting XI pretty much as good as anyone in the league. The problem is we have a manager who I am not even sure is better than fecking Hodgson, how can people not see it is beyond me. I like what Ole is trying to do, he generally has good ideas but he is just to weak to make it work. As I said yesterday, our weakest part of the team is not RW, CB or lack of depth, it's in the dugout and it's painfully obvious.

I absolutely don't get the point of managers not being backed by the club either as it's simply false. Over the last 7 years or so only City spent more than us. Blaming Ed & Glazers is popular here because they are easy targets but if there is 1 thing we could blame them is recruitment of managers which is laughable but I am not sure we can blame them for not backing the managers as we really have. People live in a fantasy world if you expect us to spend £250m every summer. Our issue is that all the players we sign turn to shit either immediately or in a few months because of bad coaching.

 

[mav_9me]

Either you get an exceptional manager with a decent squad (whatever your opinion of ole you have to agree he is not exceptional like SAF or Klopp) or you give a decent manager (if you think Ole is that) a very good set of players.

This is worst of both options.

 

[bleedred]

Do you really think if we had a Pep or a Klopp or a Conte we would of put in the same type of performance as we put in yesterday? For me it's a big no so maybe the board doesn't have all the blame. Getting the team to show some urgency would be a great place to start.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39612237
https://www.skysports.com/football/man-city-vs-c-palace/390933
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41534304

 

[soapythecat]

Ole will and should carry the can for yesterday’s abomination. He doesn’t have it tactically to use this group of players.
Just like when we finished 2nd with Jose, last season we finished 3rd but quite fortunately so. It will bite Ole in the ass as he won’t get back this window and this group of players won’t get top 4 this season - we were very, very lucky last season and results went our way when we played poorly.
Ole will be gone by Christmas - happy to be quoted on that.
I always felt he could have been our perfect appointment but I don’t think he will be able to ride out the first few months of this season. The curse/ineptitude of Woodward again.

 

[glazed]

Do you really think if we had a Pep or a Klopp or a Conte we would of put in the same type of performance as we put in yesterday? For me it's a big no so maybe the board doesn't have all the blame. Getting the team to show some urgency would be a great place to start.

They wouldn't come here. Because they know the board aren't interested in finishing higher than fourth. We stink of a lack of ambition.

 

[glazed]

It's getting tiring making the same old complaints. Anyone with a brain knows we have deep structural problems in every department and they stem from the owners. Anyone without a brain thinks we are on an upwards trajectory and it's all good.

I don't see this being resolved for decades.

 

[SAFMUTD]

CP scores 3 goals in OT for the first time in their history, Ole "the history maker".

And worst start of a season at home since 1960.

 

[IWat]

Like Zidane at Real, Pirlo at Juventus, Lampard at Chelsea?

Who are these brilliant experienced managers who are able to oversee such a rebuild? We had someone with a decade of experience in the PL and two of the highest profile managers in the world. All of which failed.

Who out there is going to come in and immediately bring us success?

Zidane really is the only one from that list that can be stated was a success (Other 2 need more time.)

As I said, I'm not on about immediate success, it's quite apparent we're in a deeper hole than that and someone is going to need to be given some time.

I'd say people like ten Hag and Nagelsmann are the sort of manager we should be targetting. They've got track records of developing youth talent and have managed to punch above their weight with the resources that they have.

 

[Shark]

Either you get an exceptional manager with a decent squad (whatever your opinion of ole you have to agree he is not exceptional like SAF or Klopp) or you give a decent manager (if you think Ole is that) a very good set of players.

This is worst of both options.

What makes it worse is we have fans that believe that we don't need a world class manager, just someone like Ole who gets the club, won't cause any controversy and has achieved feck all outside of Norway. If Klopp wanted to come here would the people saying Ole is the man for the job honest not swap in a heartbeat.

 

[SAFMUTD]

We had someone with a decade of experience in the PL and two of the highest profile managers in the world. All of which failed.

This statement is like saying the answer is not to buy world class players like Di Maria since he failed, or promising players like Depay because he failed too. Or winners like Mata and Matic, etc.

Its hit and lose, some times you'll strike it sometimes you wont. Same with managers we need to keep looking until we got ourselves the right one.

 

[JB7]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/39612237
https://www.skysports.com/football/man-city-vs-c-palace/390933
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/41534304

Don’t come at these people with facts or logic, it’s not worth it.

 

[Mainoldo]

It's getting tiring making the same old complaints. Anyone with a brain knows we have deep structural problems in every department and they stem from the owners. Anyone without a brain thinks we are on an upwards trajectory and it's all good.

I don't see this being resolved for decades.

Okay we all know that. But what about this championship manager we have in charge.

 

[Mainoldo]

Don’t come at these people with facts or logic, it’s not worth it.

Did they win the league that season?

But don’t talk about logic or facts.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This statement is like saying the answer is not to buy world class players like Di Maria since he failed, or promising players like Depay because he failed too. Or winners like Mata and Matic, etc.

Its hit and lose, some times you'll strike it sometimes you wont. Same with managers we need to keep looking until we got ourselves the right one.

No it’s not.

Who are all these great managers out there? Where are all the world class managers.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I don't understand people who every week find excuses for Ole. Nobody is saying that Ole has squad for title challenge and nobody is demanding Ole to trash teams like Pool and City do. But ffs, we struggle to beat midtable and bottom table clubs at OT. This set of players must dominate those teams. And he clearly can't get the best of them.
For what exactly are Glazers fault? For not splashing another 300,400mil which would make this team title challenger? Yes, they are guilty for that. But blaming them for not doing that that extra investment which caused defeat against Palace and our lack of game style is ridiculous.

After 2 years in charge we should play much better football than we are playing.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Either you get an exceptional manager with a decent squad (whatever your opinion of ole you have to agree he is not exceptional like SAF or Klopp) or you give a decent manager (if you think Ole is that) a very good set of players.

This is worst of both options.

Exactly, the whole Zidane approach works because they have a world class squad with players that deliver almost automatically, in that situation you only need a coach with proper temperament and people skills. Ole could do a good jood if we got a squad like that one, but we don't. As long as we don't have a world class squad with players that pull the weight by themselves a pure man managment coach wont work, we need a super coach who can turn average players into good ones and good ones into great ones.

 

[SAFMUTD]

No it’s not.

Who are all these great managers out there? Where are all the world class managers.

There are plenty promising managers, of course no one is warranted to be a success but just like players there's a gamble. Wolf from Dortmund, Nagelsmann from Leipzig, Erik Ten Hag from Ajax for example.

As I said there's no warranty they'll make it, but they do play exciting football and have a chance to make it big. Its like saying where are all this wonderkids like Mbappe, Haaland, Sancho etc? we'll you dont know them until you do. We need to get them before other ones do. No one knew Klopp and Pep would be able to reich those hights in the begining but they showed promising things that led you to believe they could.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

There are plenty promising managers, of course no one is warranted to be a success but just like players there's a gamble. Wolf from Dortmund, Nagelsmann from Leipzig, Erik Ten Hag from Ajax for example.

As I said there's no warranty they'll make it, but they do play exciting football and have a chance to make it big. Its like saying were are all this wonderkids like Mbappe, Haaland, Sancho etc? we'll you dont know them until you do. We need to get them before other ones do. No one knew Klopp and Pep would be able to reich those hights in the begining but they showed promising things that led you to believe they could.

Would you suggest all these managers would need time to get a team together and build for the future?

 

[Sky1981]

Exactly, the whole Zidane approach works because they have a world class squad with players that deliver almost automatically, in that situation you only need a coach with proper temperament and people skills. Ole could do a good jood if we got a squad like that one, but we don't. As long as we don't have a world class squad with players that pull the weight by themselves a pure man managment coach wont work, we need a super coach who can turn average players into good ones and good ones into great ones.

This is not true, you job might be easier but your target becomes harder.

Zidane might have a world class squad, but the benchmark is winning CL, not finishing top 4.

 

[Giggsyking]

Don’t come at these people with facts or logic, it’s not worth it.

He wrote Performance.
Performance ≠ result.

 

[SAFMUTD]

This is not true, you job might be easier but your target becomes harder.

Zidane might have a world class squad, but the benchmark is winning CL, not finishing top 4.

I agree with you, but my point is you're allowed to have an average coach if you have world class players. If you have an average squad you need a top coach. Obviously Im talking about winning thropies not reaching top 4.

An example of this is Bayern's coach Hans-Dieter Flick, he hadnt coached since 2005 and now with Bayern he won all he could won with a record of 34-1-2. Suddenly he's the top coach in the world? of course not, but he clearly haves great man managment skills and a worldclass squad in Bayern. Much like Zidane.

All this is because Im poiting out that Ole may work under that circumstance, but under our current one he most likely wont make it as probably Zidane nor Hans-Dieter Flick wouldnt either.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Would you suggest all these managers would need time to get a team together and build for the future?

Of course, but how much time? Managers can't be given all the patience in the world, they have to earn it. Again coming back to the players examples, but lets say for example a youngster obviously needs time to develop and deliver. But there's a difference between giving the chance and minutes to lets say Greenwood (Nagelsmann, Wolf, Ten Hagg) than to give it to Solksjaer (Daniel James).

Not every coach is worth the patience, otherwise teams would keep their coaches for ever. I think we have given Ole enough time to make a judgment.

 

[hubbuh]

Rather than reopening voting in this thread we should start a new thread with a poll titled as "Would you sack or keep Woodword?"

WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT.

 

[Kurton]

Just found this interesting article https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...united-told-bielsa-replace-solskjaer-18965904

Would be great if Bielsa comes at least as a head coach working with Ole as manager.

 

[BlueHaze]

Just found this interesting article https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...united-told-bielsa-replace-solskjaer-18965904

Would be great if Bielsa comes at least as a head coach working with Ole as manager.

He's too much of a hothead for these primadonnas. They would plot against him to get sacked after less than 6 months.

 

[KekiZeki]

We don't have a team of world class players yet to expect wonders. Crystal Palace is always a landmine in our path, sooner or later beating them will be easy again. Either that or they get relegated before then. Either way, the rebuilding is a process. Yes, the disappointment came early this season, many more will follow but we need to judge an overall progression of the team. CL was secured well before the season's end and new revenue stream is reopened. Next challenge is decent CL outing and a repeat of CL spot in the PL. It's not a given, it's something to fight for in the most competitive leage in the world. If you liked Ole getting it you can't rehash the debate of sacking him just because of cup disappointment or one league game blunder.

 

[mark_a]

The issue is the owners.

It's been the issue since they took over. It was the issue even before they had their first big decision to make & continued to be after that as well. It was an issue that was easy to overlook when Sir Alex was still in charge & things were ticking over & nothing major needed changing. Though there can't have been any true, long-standing fans that were happy with it.

What year was it they took over, 2005? The fear was they'd manage us into mediocrity. This has happened because they took over us as a cash cow & when it came time to manage a big change in that asset they were found wanting & appearing unprepared & directionless.

A good owner needs to properly back the current manager, based on the fact that he's done a good job so far. A job verging on excellent if you consider where we are, where we've been & the pressure on us. Back him properly in his 2nd big window. Arguably Woodward needs to go, as signings aside, our club doesn't do good business on players either. It's very much the exception that we actually ship players out decisively & we end up with non-playing players adding to the massive wage bill.

Things in all departments have improved. But what is the club's plan, what is it's strategy? The leeches at the top of the club need to go because the problem is, United will be a cash cow whether it's 1st place, 4th place, 7th place or even in the Championship.

In Ole, it looks like Woodward might have accidentally ended up with the nearest we've been to the "right man at the right time". Spoilt fans need to get a grip & enjoy supporting United win, lose or draw. But without a decisive change of direction (& I believe ownership) we'll swimming around between 10th & 3rd place season after season.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Of course, but how much time? Managers can't be given all the patience in the world, they have to earn it. Again coming back to the players examples, but lets say for example a youngster obviously needs time to develop and deliver. But there's a difference between giving the chance and minutes to lets say Greenwood (Nagelsmann, Wolf, Ten Hagg) than to give it to Solksjaer (Daniel James).

Not every coach is worth the patience, otherwise teams would keep their coaches for ever. I think we have given Ole enough time to make a judgment.

He took over a complete shower of shit from Jose. He clearly deserves this season. He got us to third, and back in the CL. Could you have realistically expected him or anyone to be challenging this season. No.

We are in a far better position than when he took over. One game doesn’t change that.

 

[SAFMUTD]

He took over a complete shower of shit from Jose. He clearly deserves this season. He got us to third, and back in the CL. Could you have realistically expected him or anyone to be challenging this season. No.

We are in a far better position than when he took over. One game doesn’t change that.

I agree with you, no one could have realistically spected us challenging last or this season, no matter who's the coach.

But we can expect steady improvement and just saying third and UCL is way to simplistic. Its not as simple as to say we finished 3rd when we could have easily ended 5th on the last day, like saying Mourinho did an amazing job by finishing 2nd, when we didnt challenge at all.

We are under a rollercoaster mode with Ole really marked highs and lows, we enter phases that for weeks we play great and get results followed by weeks when we play in relegation form, thats not steady improvement. We don't have consistency, we dont know what team we will see, either the one from february to june? Or the one from last august to december which we are seeing signs of again?

And regarding being in a far better position than when he took over is highly debatable, if you are comparing to Mourinhos last days of course we are, theres not many situations where we could be worst than that the whole team had turned on him. But if we compare it to the season before under Mourinho then by no means we are better, we made 81 points that season. Thats 15 more points than last season after spending 150M.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I agree with you, no one could have realistically spected us challenging last or this season, no matter who's the coach.

But we can expect steady improvement and just saying third and UCL is way to simplistic. Its not as simple as to say we finished 3rd when we could have easily ended 5th on the last day, like saying Mourinho did an amazing job by finishing 2nd, when we didnt challenge at all.

We are under a rollercoaster mode with Ole really marked highs and lows, we enter phases that for weeks we play great and get results followed by weeks when we play in relegation form, thats not steady improvement. We don't have consistency, we dont know what team we will see, either the one from february to june? Or the one from last august to december which we are seeing signs of again?

And regarding being in a far better position than when he took over is highly debatable, if you are comparing to Mourinhos last days of course we are, theres not many situations where we could be worst than that the whole team had turned on him. But if we compare it to the season before under Mourinho then by no means we are better, we made 81 points that season. Thats 15 more points than last season after spending 150M.

Thanks for the reply. It’s nice to have a well reasoned debate.

It’s interesting if we compare Jose’s penultimate season, I think it was somewhat of a false position, as of course we never challenged, and our flaws came to the fore the next season.

If/ when OGS goes, he would leave far better foundations than Jose or LVG. He’s made decisions that will benefit the club in the long term. Whether that’s enough for short term success, I don’t know. We clearly need a couple more players, but I see progress in the mentality and identify if the team (if you ignore yesterday).

The next two weeks are important for OGS and the club.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Thanks for the reply. It’s nice to have a well reasoned debate.

It’s interesting if we compare Jose’s penultimate season, I think it was somewhat of a false position, as of course we never challenged, and our flaws came to the fore the next season.

If/ when OGS goes, he would leave far better foundations than Jose or LVG. He’s made decisions that will benefit the club in the long term. Whether that’s enough for short term success, I don’t know. We clearly need a couple more players, but I see progress in the mentality and identify if the team (if you ignore yesterday).

The next two weeks are important for OGS and the club.

Totally agree, I think Ole is doing a job about making a foundation rather than looking for immediate success, the question is how long are we willing to wait until we actually start demanding success?

As you say time will tell, I hope we don't give more time than necessary. I say this is his make or break season, cant be riding on the whole "rebuild" statement for 3 seasons.

 

[Isotope]

WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT.

Maybe we'd know who are Ed's mole in the Caf.

 

[westmeath]

A theme on this thread is that it’s the owners who are the problem and even a world class manager would struggle under the Glazers. I despise our greedy owners as much as anyone but I don’t like this logic.

1. It gives Ole a free ride. No matter how bad he is, this argument saves his job. Where is the bar set? At what point do we say “yes the owners don’t make it easy but you’ve been shown to be a big part of the problem too”
2. Secondly, SAF was successful despite working for this regime. So a really top class manager can overcome the obstacles and give the team a personality and some direction.

Always have loved Ole but we are never winning a big trophy with him in charge, no matter who our owners are.

 

[Foxbatt]

A theme on this thread is that it’s the owners who are the problem and even a world class manager would struggle under the Glazers. I despise our greedy owners as much as anyone but I don’t like this logic.

1. It gives Ole a free ride. No matter how bad he is, this argument saves his job. Where is the bar set? At what point do we say “yes the owners don’t make it easy but you’ve been shown to be a big part of the problem too”
2. Secondly, SAF was successful despite working for this regime. So a really top class manager can overcome the obstacles and give the team a personality and some direction.

Always have loved Ole but we are never winning a big trophy with him in charge, no matter who our owners are.

Spot on. We do not expect Ole to win the PL or the CL with this team. But I expect him to beat Palace and not get thrashed by them. They were much the better team. Excuses and excuses. I thought he should be given the season to see how it goes but the way we play I do not think we are going to get even the CL spot. Spurs with Bale in the side would be a m,ich better side that what we have. Ole cannot see the what is wrong with the way he set us his team. He does not know how to try various different combinations. It is as the former Italian manager Enzo Bearzot said about Terry Butcher and England. Butcher, sempre Butcher. Rashford, always Rashford. If he is not playing well, take him off just as he takes off other players.

 

[Karlos PFC]

So you can name one manager?

Pochetino, Alegri, Nagelsmann, Ten Haag, Tuchel, hell even Hazenhutl I think would be a great fit with his high pressing style

 

[glazed]

Okay we all know that. But what about this championship manager we have in charge.

I mean he will probably get sacked at the end of this season or next. Then he will be replaced with another manager who can't do any better. The structure of the club limits what is achievable. There is no mechanism for resolving this except for a mass walk out by fans. We would literally all have to refuse to watch the club on TV or at Old Trafford till the Glazers sold. And that would require more organisation and unity than we are collectively capable of.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Pochetino, Alegri, Nagelsmann,Ten Haag, Tuchel, hell even Hazenhutl I think would be a great fit with his high pressing style

Allegro aside, it’s not exactly compelling. Hazenhuti I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole.

The point is there aren’t this great pool of world class managers. There is not anyone who with any degree of certainty is going to be better than OGS.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

No one could win the PL with this lot. But many and almost all could beat Palace at home.

Ole has beaten palace... city have lost to palace under pep. are you suggesting almost all managers could beat palace every single time? and all teams at palace level?

 

[Mainoldo]

Allegro aside, it’s not exactly compelling. Hazenhuti I wouldn’t touch with a barge pole.

The point is there aren’t this great pool of world class managers. There is not anyone who with any degree of certainty is going to be better than OGS.

Not being funny but in the pool of managers Ole isn’t nowhere near top tear. So whoever we replace him with unless we decide to give Dwight Yorke a go. Would probably be better than him. The guy can’t even get good fitness coaches.