WSL 25/26 | Everton v United - 12:00 Sun 12 Oct

I think one of the things that happened was Ruby Mace was comfortable for a lot of the game winning challenges sitting in the DM position for Everton. Hinata skipped past her and put Malard through with a good pass, wont get an assist for it because Malard missed and got the rebound but that got us level. And then when Park came on she was getting involved centrally around the edge of the box which is where you'd expect Mace to be making her challenges and Park got 2 goals. So Mace went from having a good game to making a mistake and being punished and then when Park came on, 2 more goals from the area of the pitch she has some responsibility for.

Hinata did great to set up the first goal but she had some responsibility for Everton's first. Yes as she gestures after the goal the defenders should be breaking out to clear the ball but shes on her back foot not looking after the players coming in behind her. she should at least be slowly moving towards the ball with alertness in case the CBs dont get out to clear it which is what happened. Hayashi did well to keep the ball down and into the net on the half volley poke

I usually dont rate her but I think Naalsand was about as good as Hinata and Toone today due to the latter two not being at their best

Edit - Mace was joined by Wheeler also playing DM in a duo so shared praise when we werent getting through and then shared responsibility for when Park is receiving the ball around the edge of the box and scoring 2 goals.
 
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I only tuned in for the last half hour so you can thank me for the win!

Great to get a comeback win, Skinner needs to rotate more though - I know he made a couple of changes but need more plus earlier subs to avoid fatigue
 
I only tuned in for the last half hour so you can thank me for the win!

Great to get a comeback win, Skinner needs to rotate more though - I know he made a couple of changes but need more plus earlier subs to avoid fatigue
Thank you!!!!!

If we had put up 3 in the first half, I wonder if Skinner might have made more subs sooner.
 
I don't post during the game, as a rule. I thought we were totally dominant where it mattered and were nowhere near as bad as some on here made out.

Yes we could have been more clinical in the first half, but we were creating chances and controlling the game. We ended up with nearly 66% possession, 14 shots and 4 goals. As a comparison, Chelsea had slightly more possession, 27 shots and only 1 goal at home to Spurs. Hampton made 3 saves, PTJ 1 (in the 92nd minute) This was a comfortable win.

As @Lobster11 said after the Vålarenga game, Toone did what she needed to do and ended up with two assists. Bringing Park on and moving Malard inside opened Everton up completely. Miyazawa is just class.

And, further to the attendance discussion (@Lightbringer) - 18, 154. Brand new ground, reasonable Sunday KO time, and it's practically easier and faster to get to Liverpool than LSV!

A good day's work.
 
I don't post during the game, as a rule. I thought we were totally dominant where it mattered and were nowhere near as bad as some on here made out.

Yes we could have been more clinical in the first half, but we were creating chances and controlling the game. We ended up with nearly 66% possession, 14 shots and 4 goals. As a comparison, Chelsea had slightly more possession, 27 shots and only 1 goal at home to Spurs. Hampton made 3 saves, PTJ 1 (in the 92nd minute) This was a comfortable win.

As @Lobster11 said after the Vålarenga game, Toone did what she needed to do and ended up with two assists. Bringing Park on and moving Malard inside opened Everton up completely. Miyazawa is just class.

And, further to the attendance discussion (@Lightbringer) - 18, 154. Brand new ground, reasonable Sunday KO time, and it's practically easier and faster to get to Liverpool than LSV!

A good day's work.

I think the frustrated posting was from when we were 0-1 or 1-1. We were obviously completely dominating Everton in terms of having the ball and having it in their half but also there were long periods we didnt get any chances before eventually getting the first and the rest fairly quickly after that. It was a dramatic turn around as they crumbled after the first goal went in and a good scoreline in the end.
 
I think the frustrated posting was from when we were 0-1 or 1-1. We were obviously completely dominating Everton in terms of having the ball and having it in their half but also there were long periods we didnt get any chances before eventually getting the first and the rest fairly quickly after that. It was a dramatic turn around as they crumbled after the first goal went in and a good scoreline in the end.
I understand the frustration as people vent during live play, which is why I avoid that. I was frustrated too and wanted us to be cruising 3-0 after 30 minutes, but I know that's not how games generally go.

I was, however, totally confident that we would win, even after going behind.
 
I'm glad to see so many folks using the word "frustrating," because that first half was the most frustrated I can remember ever being during a match. For me, at least, that wasn't because I thought we were playing poorly, or even just because of the lack of finishing, but because it felt like one of those days when the forces of The Universe were aligned against us. It seemed that we were on the wrong end of every lucky/unlucky bounce and every officiating error. (Thus my admittedly premature panic attack.)

I'm still fuming that there was no goalkeeper-interference penalty on the Everton goal. Plus, what made it worse was that they must've shown the replay on a least a half-dozen occasions during the remainder of the half, and every single time the announcers would point out that although someone "got a bit of a touch" on Phallon it wasn't enough to warrant a foul. Grrrrrrrr! The player backed into Phallon so aggressively that she knocked her on her ass (er, I mean arse). If that wasn't goalkeeper interference I have no idea what is, and it cost her a deserved clean sheet.
 
I'm glad to see so many folks using the word "frustrating," because that first half was the most frustrated I can remember ever being during a match. For me, at least, that wasn't because I thought we were playing poorly, or even just because of the lack of finishing, but because it felt like one of those days when the forces of The Universe were aligned against us. It seemed that we were on the wrong end of every lucky/unlucky bounce and every officiating error. (Thus my admittedly premature panic attack.)

I'm still fuming that there was no goalkeeper-interference penalty on the Everton goal. Plus, what made it worse was that they must've shown the replay on a least a half-dozen occasions during the remainder of the half, and every single time the announcers would point out that although someone "got a bit of a touch" on Phallon it wasn't enough to warrant a foul. Grrrrrrrr! The player backed into Phallon so aggressively that she knocked her on her ass (er, I mean arse). If that wasn't goalkeeper interference I have no idea what is, and it cost her a deserved clean sheet.

For me personally I'd referee it the same as the mens game. And in the mens game you can have more contact than that and not give away a freekick. Bayindir and Onana have had more than that when they made mistakes on crosses and it wasnt given. I think its just part of the game now especially in England that goalkeepers are no longer given freekicks if players have a bit of contact and are expected to push through them to go get the ball and when they do, they dont give away a freekick
 
I'm glad to see so many folks using the word "frustrating," because that first half was the most frustrated I can remember ever being during a match. For me, at least, that wasn't because I thought we were playing poorly, or even just because of the lack of finishing, but because it felt like one of those days when the forces of The Universe were aligned against us. It seemed that we were on the wrong end of every lucky/unlucky bounce and every officiating error. (Thus my admittedly premature panic attack.)

I'm still fuming that there was no goalkeeper-interference penalty on the Everton goal. Plus, what made it worse was that they must've shown the replay on a least a half-dozen occasions during the remainder of the half, and every single time the announcers would point out that although someone "got a bit of a touch" on Phallon it wasn't enough to warrant a foul. Grrrrrrrr! The player backed into Phallon so aggressively that she knocked her on her ass (er, I mean arse). If that wasn't goalkeeper interference I have no idea what is, and it cost her a deserved clean sheet.

For me personally I'd referee it the same as the mens game. And in the mens game you can have more contact than that and not give away a freekick. Bayindir and Onana have had more than that when they made mistakes on crosses and it wasnt given. I think its just part of the game now especially in England that goalkeepers are no longer given freekicks if players have a bit of contact and are expected to push through them to go get the ball and when they do, they dont give away a freekick

With regards to Evertons goal. Why would the Everton player be allowed to move into Phallon not only obstructing her by being in the way, but moving into her as well and not looking to play the ball whatsoever. I mean if the goaltender and a player both go for a high ball I can understand there are some contact between the two. But I dont see how its good for the game if players are just allowed to not only screen but to actively seek to block the goalkeeper from moving. In this case I think its clear free kick, otherwise you green light players just interfering the goalkeeper at every corner and if consistent it should be allowed, which would turn the game into a bit of farce.Its a small tackle from the Everton player on a player that never has had the ball, and is trying to play the ball. Text book goalkeeper interference.

Note: Everton took another corner some time later that Phallon knocked away after pushing the same Everton player out of the way to be able to play the ball. That almost was another goal for Everton and it was because Phallon felt that she would not be protected in case of a foul so she made a foul of her own the next time it happened!

If this is happening on the mens side I would think its just as wrong. Taking the goaltender out to score goals is not fair football.
 
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Did we get the best deal out of the Park / Clinton “swap”?
I think there's too much focus on the comparison to see if we got a good deal when I think it wasn't really a swap deal in the traditional sense. I think Clinton was going anyway - the fact that we got Park out of it is an unexpected plus and should be seen as such considering how good she's been. Park seems to work well with the team and has added something different to what we already had.
 
I think there's too much focus on the comparison to see if we got a good deal when I think it wasn't really a swap deal in the traditional sense. I think Clinton was going anyway - the fact that we got Park out of it is an unexpected plus and should be seen as such considering how good she's been. Park seems to work well with the team and has added something different to what we already had.

That’s why I wrote “swap”. There were questions at the time about how we could let Clinton go, and were we effectively trading down for a lower quality player. Park has been a revelation so wondering if those opinions had changed
 
That’s why I wrote “swap”. There were questions at the time about how we could let Clinton go, and were we effectively trading down for a lower quality player. Park has been a revelation so wondering if those opinions had changed
The deal is looking better by the week - I think we got Park + cash

seeing as there was a strong possibility Clinton would stay another year and leave for free, the club did well to get this deal done
 
That’s why I wrote “swap”. There were questions at the time about how we could let Clinton go, and were we effectively trading down for a lower quality player. Park has been a revelation so wondering if those opinions had changed

Well Park had been worse for the past 1 or 2 seasons (At Spurs Clinton had 4 goals and 4 assists but did loads of defensive ball winning, Park had 4 goals and 5 assists with less defending. Some posters just look at attacking stats and would disagree) but its clear that Clinton has had a slow start to this season - she wasnt available for City's game yesterday even as a sub. So it would be hard to make a case right now for Clinton unless you think when she returns she'll go straight into the team and score every game. I think she could still get 8 league goals this season but so can Park.

But Clinton is a year younger and less experienced and as time goes by that difference will feel smaller. It may be that by the time shes actually playing regularly for City Park is pretty much out of sight for this season and it might be next season where she can actually compete. And yes sure you can say she wasnt interested in staying so she wouldnt have been there but its part of your job to keep players happy and willing to stay. Look at Arsenal and Chelsea's squads and they keep adding more players instead of having players unhappy asking to leave. So they have depth and United ended up not having enough first teamers for the bench at times. Of course it was possible to convince her to stay but I'm sure some things would have had to have changed and Skinner wasnt willing so she was going to leave. Shes not exactly the first of our players to want to leave and we may see more in the future.

However Park is now doing great and looks happy. So she looks like one player who will hopefully stay her 4 years and then want to sign on for more. A lot can change in the next 3 years though
 
I think there's too much focus on the comparison to see if we got a good deal when I think it wasn't really a swap deal in the traditional sense. I think Clinton was going anyway - the fact that we got Park out of it is an unexpected plus and should be seen as such considering how good she's been. Park seems to work well with the team and has added something different to what we already had.
Whatever we call it, I agree that the early looks are good, from what looked a dire situation of yet another top class player or talent wanting to leave the club with mumblings of ‘not ambitious enough club’ in the air. The interplay between Toone and Park looks a lot better than with Toone and Clinton, so already that makes Park a ‘better’ player for us based on what I’ve seen.

Who would do best at Manchester City, or England, or any other place, is irrelevant to us, as we are always going to be Manchester United.
 
For me personally I'd referee it the same as the mens game. And in the mens game you can have more contact than that and not give away a freekick. Bayindir and Onana have had more than that when they made mistakes on crosses and it wasnt given. I think its just part of the game now especially in England that goalkeepers are no longer given freekicks if players have a bit of contact and are expected to push through them to go get the ball and when they do, they dont give away a freekick
I don't actually follow the men's game (really, it's true!) so I'll have to take your word for it. I agree that it should be called the same in the women's game as in the men's, but if it really is now "just part of the game" on both sides I agree with @Lightbringer that it's wrong. I honestly don't understand what "interference" means if that Everton goal isn't a textbook example of it.
 
I think there's too much focus on the comparison to see if we got a good deal when I think it wasn't really a swap deal in the traditional sense. I think Clinton was going anyway - the fact that we got Park out of it is an unexpected plus and should be seen as such considering how good she's been. Park seems to work well with the team and has added something different to what we already had.
As I believe I've said elsewhere before, I think that if there was any "swap" it was really Zigiotti for Clinton. Zigiotti seems to me a (solid) like-for-like replacement for Clinton, and I often wonder if we didn't bring her in at least in part in the expectation of Clinton leaving soon after. To me it's the addition of Park that seems like a totally separate thing, as she brings a very different skill set that we were otherwise lacking (whether we realized it or not).
 
I don't actually follow the men's game (really, it's true!) so I'll have to take your word for it. I agree that it should be called the same in the women's game as in the men's, but if it really is now "just part of the game" on both sides I agree with @Lightbringer that it's wrong. I honestly don't understand what "interference" means if that Everton goal isn't a textbook example of it.

For both yourself and @Lightbringer this is from our opening game of the season against Arsenal.



Bayindir has a lot of contact from a player stopping him from coming through and catching or getting a clean punch on the ball. I would give a foul but its not given these days in the premier league, its now expected that the goalkeeper just pushes them out of the way and thats what you see at set pieces. When the ball comes in goalkeepers are shoving players so they have room to start to come out. Penalties are never given for it. Its just the current dynamic in the premier league.

This is the goal for Everton



I would say theres half as much force on the goalkeeper. But obviously theres a difference in the size and weight of men and women. I'd say its similar if we account for those different sizes and weights. Both times the player is applying force and leaning on the goalkeeper and isnt leaping to try and head the ball. Tullis-Joyce is able to push the ball away while Bayindir ends up putting the ball in his own net not getting a clean punch on the ball because hes being pushed back, off balance and he's more concerned with that contact than dealing with the ball. Again to me its a foul, but its not given as a foul in the premier league today. We all felt Bayindir made a mistake and needs to be stronger on crosses regardless

Even if you disagree I hope you can see why I think they are similar and why, seeing this all the time in the mens game at the moment I think Tullis-Joyce wasnt fouled. She also did a decent enough job pushing through and able to get her punch even if it wasnt with distance or to a good area, I dont think its really a mistake from her. I'd say its more on Janssen and Le Tissier who both seem to lose the flight of the ball once she punches it, not sure where it is and unable to push out and clear the ball and also Hinata and Riviere. Hinata is on her back foot not ready to react to players coming in from behind her and isnt alert for if the defenders arent dealing with it. Riviere actually ends up closer and is semi alert as she starts to move towards the ball unlike Hinata but she also hesistates. Either Hinata or Riviere could have taken charge and cleared it, reacting to the defenders not coming out to deal with it. So some things to improve on defending set pieces regardless. It hasnt been a problem so far so hopefully its a one off.
 
For both yourself and @Lightbringer this is from our opening game of the season against Arsenal.



Bayindir has a lot of contact from a player stopping him from coming through and catching or getting a clean punch on the ball. I would give a foul but its not given these days in the premier league, its now expected that the goalkeeper just pushes them out of the way and thats what you see at set pieces. When the ball comes in goalkeepers are shoving players so they have room to start to come out. Penalties are never given for it. Its just the current dynamic in the premier league.

This is the goal for Everton



I would say theres half as much force on the goalkeeper. But obviously theres a difference in the size and weight of men and women. I'd say its similar if we account for those different sizes and weights. Both times the player is applying force and leaning on the goalkeeper and isnt leaping to try and head the ball. Tullis-Joyce is able to push the ball away while Bayindir ends up putting the ball in his own net not getting a clean punch on the ball because hes being pushed back, off balance and he's more concerned with that contact than dealing with the ball. Again to me its a foul, but its not given as a foul in the premier league today. We all felt Bayindir made a mistake and needs to be stronger on crosses regardless

Even if you disagree I hope you can see why I think they are similar and why, seeing this all the time in the mens game at the moment I think Tullis-Joyce wasnt fouled. She also did a decent enough job pushing through and able to get her punch even if it wasnt with distance or to a good area, I dont think its really a mistake from her. I'd say its more on Janssen and Le Tissier who both seem to lose the flight of the ball once she punches it, not sure where it is and unable to push out and clear the ball and also Hinata and Riviere. Hinata is on her back foot not ready to react to players coming in from behind her and isnt alert for if the defenders arent dealing with it. Riviere actually ends up closer and is semi alert as she starts to move towards the ball unlike Hinata but she also hesistates. Either Hinata or Riviere could have taken charge and cleared it, reacting to the defenders not coming out to deal with it. So some things to improve on defending set pieces regardless. It hasnt been a problem so far so hopefully its a one off.

Thank you for the time and effort you put into this post, which (at least for me) had exactly the intended effect: I see the two situations as very similar, so either both are fouls or neither is. To my mind, both are clear examples of (my understanding of) goalkeeper interference, so I am now redirecting my anger from the referee that failed to call the foul in the women's game to the system (?) that interprets the rules in this way. In my opinion they are both textbook examples of "goalkeeper interference," and it makes me sad that this isn't true in the current environment.

What do you think, @Lightbringer?
 
After reading about both coach's comments and other analyses, I think I now have a better understanding of how this match went down as it did. Based on these and other Internet sources, here's my in-retrospect version of what happened:

Everton's game plan, which they had worked on all week, was largely focused on containing Jess Park. The reason Park didn't start for us wasn't just to rest her: It was because Skinner anticipated this and gave them a different look than they expected. This actually worked brilliantly in the first half apart from our inability to finish.

Skinner then started the same lineup in the second half to see what adjustments Everton made to adjust to the "non-Park" lineup. After a few minutes it was apparent that they had made those adjustments, so he subbed in Park in for Terland and caught them unprepared again. We all know what happened after that.

If this analysis is right, Skinner deserves a lot more credit for this result than most of us are usually willing to give him.
 
For both yourself and @Lightbringer this is from our opening game of the season against Arsenal.



Bayindir has a lot of contact from a player stopping him from coming through and catching or getting a clean punch on the ball. I would give a foul but its not given these days in the premier league, its now expected that the goalkeeper just pushes them out of the way and thats what you see at set pieces. When the ball comes in goalkeepers are shoving players so they have room to start to come out. Penalties are never given for it. Its just the current dynamic in the premier league.

This is the goal for Everton



I would say theres half as much force on the goalkeeper. But obviously theres a difference in the size and weight of men and women. I'd say its similar if we account for those different sizes and weights. Both times the player is applying force and leaning on the goalkeeper and isnt leaping to try and head the ball. Tullis-Joyce is able to push the ball away while Bayindir ends up putting the ball in his own net not getting a clean punch on the ball because hes being pushed back, off balance and he's more concerned with that contact than dealing with the ball. Again to me its a foul, but its not given as a foul in the premier league today. We all felt Bayindir made a mistake and needs to be stronger on crosses regardless

Even if you disagree I hope you can see why I think they are similar and why, seeing this all the time in the mens game at the moment I think Tullis-Joyce wasnt fouled. She also did a decent enough job pushing through and able to get her punch even if it wasnt with distance or to a good area, I dont think its really a mistake from her. I'd say its more on Janssen and Le Tissier who both seem to lose the flight of the ball once she punches it, not sure where it is and unable to push out and clear the ball and also Hinata and Riviere. Hinata is on her back foot not ready to react to players coming in from behind her and isnt alert for if the defenders arent dealing with it. Riviere actually ends up closer and is semi alert as she starts to move towards the ball unlike Hinata but she also hesistates. Either Hinata or Riviere could have taken charge and cleared it, reacting to the defenders not coming out to deal with it. So some things to improve on defending set pieces regardless. It hasnt been a problem so far so hopefully its a one off.

They are both fouls. Just because the ref didn’t give them because of whatever their reasons doesn’t make them fair play. I can’t be convinced otherwise when I see plenty of both the men’s and women’s game where interference on the keeper exactly like these two examples are given as fouls.
 
For both yourself and @Lightbringer this is from our opening game of the season against Arsenal.



Bayindir has a lot of contact from a player stopping him from coming through and catching or getting a clean punch on the ball. I would give a foul but its not given these days in the premier league, its now expected that the goalkeeper just pushes them out of the way and thats what you see at set pieces. When the ball comes in goalkeepers are shoving players so they have room to start to come out. Penalties are never given for it. Its just the current dynamic in the premier league.

This is the goal for Everton



I would say theres half as much force on the goalkeeper. But obviously theres a difference in the size and weight of men and women. I'd say its similar if we account for those different sizes and weights. Both times the player is applying force and leaning on the goalkeeper and isnt leaping to try and head the ball. Tullis-Joyce is able to push the ball away while Bayindir ends up putting the ball in his own net not getting a clean punch on the ball because hes being pushed back, off balance and he's more concerned with that contact than dealing with the ball. Again to me its a foul, but its not given as a foul in the premier league today. We all felt Bayindir made a mistake and needs to be stronger on crosses regardless

Even if you disagree I hope you can see why I think they are similar and why, seeing this all the time in the mens game at the moment I think Tullis-Joyce wasnt fouled. She also did a decent enough job pushing through and able to get her punch even if it wasnt with distance or to a good area, I dont think its really a mistake from her. I'd say its more on Janssen and Le Tissier who both seem to lose the flight of the ball once she punches it, not sure where it is and unable to push out and clear the ball and also Hinata and Riviere. Hinata is on her back foot not ready to react to players coming in from behind her and isnt alert for if the defenders arent dealing with it. Riviere actually ends up closer and is semi alert as she starts to move towards the ball unlike Hinata but she also hesistates. Either Hinata or Riviere could have taken charge and cleared it, reacting to the defenders not coming out to deal with it. So some things to improve on defending set pieces regardless. It hasnt been a problem so far so hopefully its a one off.


In the Bayindir situation there is actually a Man United defender backing into the Arsenal player that takes Bayindir out of play. I dont know if that had any impression on the ref, but if I had been Arsenal I would be saying that the United player put the Arsenal player into Bayindir. Regardless if I had been reffing that game I still would have blown the free kick as I dont think goals should be awarded when goaltenders have been taken out unless its clear their ability to make a proper play was not affected. It was not Bayindirs fault, the only way he could have avoided that was pushing the Arsenal player clear and that would have been impossible with a United defender just in front of the Arsenal player.

Yes, I can totally understand that you see a similarity in the goaltender being interfered with on both occasions and no whistle. I agree with @Lobster11 and scanny that both situations are fouls on the goalkeeper and should have been whistled as free kicks for United whether its in the womens game or mens game. Janssen totally freezes and the Liverpool players angle to shot is not cut down because she is not rushing towards the Everton player. Obviously as you mentioned others player could also done better. Luckily it did not cost us any points in the end.

In the end I dont want a football game decided by opposing players interfering and taking the goaltender out on corners especially if they are not playing the ball. Give the outfield players room to challenge to goaltender for the ball but not taking the goaltender out when not going for the ball!
 
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After reading about both coach's comments and other analyses, I think I now have a better understanding of how this match went down as it did. Based on these and other Internet sources, here's my in-retrospect version of what happened:

Everton's game plan, which they had worked on all week, was largely focused on containing Jess Park. The reason Park didn't start for us wasn't just to rest her: It was because Skinner anticipated this and gave them a different look than they expected. This actually worked brilliantly in the first half apart from our inability to finish.

Skinner then started the same lineup in the second half to see what adjustments Everton made to adjust to the "non-Park" lineup. After a few minutes it was apparent that they had made those adjustments, so he subbed in Park in for Terland and caught them unprepared again. We all know what happened after that.

If this analysis is right, Skinner deserves a lot more credit for this result than most of us are usually willing to give him.
Have to agree with this, and hopefully it shows he is open to trying to switch things up and implement different strategies when the breakthrough is not there. Credit here because it worked for sure, but also good to see he has more than 'like for like swap after 65 minutes' in his tactics bag!
 
Could somebody who is more tech-savvy than me (that's everone) post the Galton/Williams post-match interview here?

It's brilliant and perfectly sums up the positivity and togetherness in this current squad.