SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
38,145
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
France is not being deceitful. It’s being fully transparent.

A difference in methodology is not nefarious by nature.
What's deceit got to do with it? What are the figures for deaths in care homes and similar residential settings in France? What about home deaths? If there are no figures is that because it's routine to take everyone with Covid symptoms to hospital - including those who are in hospices or have DNR or "doesn't want to leave home" preferences on file?

The UK hasn't been releasing care home and non-hospital stats, and they say once they start doing so (in the next couple of days) the stats will always be a bit delayed (due to local coroners needing to collate the death certificates). Is the system similar in France?
 

Ekkie Thump

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
3,877
Supports
Leeds United
My point is that in the Western cultures people tend to value individual liberties more than the collective welfare of society compared to other cultures. This isn’t always a bad thing, you could say it’s a factor that leads to more developed democratic governance structures in the West. However, it doesn’t help when there’s a global pandemic that requires people to sacrifice individual liberties for the greater good. If you don’t believe that point to be true then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
valuing Individual liberty and "feck other people" are obviously not synonymous. If you think they are then there certainly isn't anything more to say to each other.
 

Fingeredmouse

Full Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
5,632
Location
Glasgow
Smokers probably cost society more in health care than they would in pensions. Also it's not like all smokers are only affected by it after they retire (and stop being productive).
I'd be very surprised if smokers in the UK weren't a net positive contributor in the UK. Someone'll have done the sums. I'll have a look.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,354
Location
France
What's deceit got to do with it? What are the figures for deaths in care homes and similar residential settings in France. If there are no figures is that because it's routine to take everyone with Covid symptoms to hospital?

The UK hasn't been releasing care home and non-hospital stats, and they say once they start doing so (in the next couple of days) the stats will always be a bit delayed (due to local coroners needing to collate the death certificates). Is the system similar in France?
When you have symptoms of Covid19 and are in the high risks population you are indeed brought to the regional hospital dedicated to Covid19 patients and tested, so in reality they are partially counted. The issue is that some people definitely slipped through the cracks and died in care home potentially from Covid19 or even at home, overall the mortality increased by 6%(all causes included) since the start of the epidemy compared to last year. The figures regarding people that died in care homes is supposed to be published this week and the platform to make that possible(I don't know what that means) was finished this past weekend.
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
10,047
Location
Blitztown
What's deceit got to do with it? What are the figures for deaths in care homes and similar residential settings in France? What about home deaths? If there are no figures is that because it's routine to take everyone with Covid symptoms to hospital - including those who are in hospices or have DNR or "doesn't want to leave home" preferences on file?

The UK hasn't been releasing care home and non-hospital stats, and they say once they start doing so (in the next couple of days) the stats will always be a bit delayed (due to local coroners needing to collate the death certificates). Is the system similar in France?
People are trying to suggest that France should use an identical set of procedures and data set as everyone else.

If everyone used the exact same method of data collection, same test, reported in the same way... that would be great.

But that’s simply never going to happen. No single country is using exactly the same procedures as everyone else.

Anyone criticising France reporting Care Home deaths, or at home deaths, in a slightly different way, is small minded and needs to back away from the keyboard and internet for a day.

They’re handling their situation in the best way that they can. I’m kind of sick of people jumping on a soapbox to criticise things just for the sake of it. It’s exhausting to wade through so much shite.
 

NYAS

Full Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
4,315
Yes, definitely lets hope it doesn't come to that. I have a lot of good memories of the UAE, and I think if more people look at its history and how far its come they would be less judgemental. I am hopeful with the kind of administrative control the UAE have, it should hopefully not be as bad a situation as we are seeing elsewhere. Certainly economically it will be very bad for the next year or so especially with the Expo 2020 coming up as well, but I hope they can prioritise the health aspect of it.

For me I've spent some time in Saudi as well, and I've got nothing positive to say about that country. They've never handled this kind of thing well, see the Haj incidents etc., I don't have a lot of hope of them keeping on top of this unfortunately
Agreed, the smaller countries like Kuwait and UAE I’m not worried about. With regards to KSA, there are allegations their numbers are under-reported.

valuing Individual liberty and "feck other people" are obviously not synonymous. If you think they are then there certainly isn't anything more to say to each other.
At times like these when you continue to exploit your individual liberties to the fullest then yeah, it is synonymous with “feck other people”. That’s why people are being told to stay at home.

Well you’re a delight aren’t you.
Could say the same about yourself!
 

Hound Dog

Full Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
3,192
Location
Belgrade, Serbia
Supports
Whoever I bet on
Smokers probably cost society more in health care than they would in pensions. Also it's not like all smokers are only affected by it after they retire (and stop being productive).
Those who are majorly affected earlier are major outliers.

Also, tax on cigarettes is huge so no, they do not cost more.
 

Prometheus

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
2,708
Supports
Chelsea
It's not enough. Same as manufacturers should be charged more for all the fecking fag butts that pollute the world. I'd like to see fag butts completely banned.
It probably is to be honest. The tax on cigarettes is quite insane!
 

jojojo

JoJoJoJoJoJoJo
Staff
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
38,145
Location
Welcome to Manchester reception committee
When you have symptoms of Covid19 and are in the high risks population you are indeed brought to the regional hospital dedicated to Covid19 patients and tested, so in reality they are partially counted. The issue is that some people definitely slipped through the cracks and died in care home potentially from Covid19 or even at home, overall the mortality increased by 6%(all causes included) since the start of the epidemy compared to last year. The figures regarding people that died in care homes is supposed to be published this week and the platform to make that possible(I don't know what that means) was finished this past weekend.
It sounds like France and the UK are in a similar position.
 

Sphaero

Struggling to explain his genius to the hoi polloi
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
4,620
Location
Potsdam, Germany
Supports
Borussia Dortmund
My point is that in the Western cultures people tend to value individual liberties more than the collective welfare of society compared to other cultures. This isn’t always a bad thing, you could say it’s a factor that leads to more developed democratic governance structures in the West. However, it doesn’t help when there’s a global pandemic that requires people to sacrifice individual liberties for the greater good. If you don’t believe that point to be true then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Ok, first of all, there are massive cultural differences between Western Countries, even those in relatively close geographical proximity like the EU. Secondly, I would define collective wellfare of a society aka its people as a whole with the (albeit unrealistic) goal to care for each of its citizen as best as it can.

If I compare the general culture of the US with the one of Nordic and Central European countries like for example Germany the differences are in parts massive. This starts with Universal Healthcare, free education, far stricter labour laws (some of the strictest worldwide), a still imperfect but far stronger social safety net in cases of illness. debt, loss of home or unemployment and the list goes on and on. How can the German state afford all of this? Some of the highest employment costs in the world and taxes. Despite being an ecomonic powerhouse the average German citizen while enjoying a high standart of living is actually non that wealthy, because a lot of his/her income is used to finance the Social state. Programs like "Kurzarbeit" which protect people working in struggling companies/branches from unemployment in times of crisis are accepted by the vast majority of the population eventhough it costs billions of tax payer money. The entire retirement system is based on solidarity for people they will probably never meet which puts it in stark contrast to mid eastern countries like Turkey where the care of the elderly is put far more in the hands of the families or Asian countries like Japan where a lot of the money for the retirement comes directly from the companies they worked for.

Why is all of this largely accepted by the German public? Because culturally it values things the most in difference to other countries.According to studies the one thing that is valued the most in the US is the freedom or liberty to build your own life like you want to do. In Germany? It is safety. This is to a large part historically originated, especially from the first years post WWII, which were plagued by shortages and poverty. Eventhough many actually did not live in that time, it is still an integral part of the education and upbringing. The thought in the back of your mind that you want to be cared for if you fall in hard times and need help. This need for your own safety breeds solidarity for others, to help them in times of need so you might receive help yourself if needed.

It is by no means a more noble cultural outlook than for example the American way of life because it is ultimately motivated by a individual desire for safety, but it leads to a more society orientated thinking.

So which way is now the Western culture? There is none IMO, it is just a buzz word.


To come back to the actual topic of the thread, the desire for safety is one of the reasons why Germany has been less shaken by the virus than other countries. Besides an obvious luck factor especially the younger average age of infected people in the first wave, the German heath system runs nowhere near maximum capacity in normal times, which leaves a lot of reserves in times of crisis. The very high number of ICU beds for example in relation to other countries is simply the desire to prepare for hard times. It is normally nowhere near cost effecitve but if something really bad happens, it can save lifes-
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,350
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
Don't underestimate the issue with smoking, especially in northern Italy.
I worked in Turin for a short period of time and it was a massive difference compared to England.

You can't smoke and expect not to severely damage your lungs.
They smoke like trains in China too but their mortality rates were generally a hell of a lot lower than Italy. Apart from Wuhan. What Wuhan and Italy had in common that caused their much higher CFR wasn’t smoking. It was a health service that got completely overwhelmed.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,381
Location
The Zone

An internal email sent by the trust’s medical director to staff revealed the trust did not have enhanced Personal Protective Equipment in place for resuscitation.

 
Last edited:

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,603
Location
Centreback
Human stupidity is a powerful thing. You need to confront it powerfully in return.

If someone can’t wait to get a bit of sun and gets jailed for 3 years; and that saves lives, then so be it.

People are supposed to listen to clear advice from the government. It isn’t that difficult.

I don’t expect people from individualistic cultures to really understand it. Someone posted about the “cheek-kissing” countries being the worst hit (Italy, Spain and France). We’re even bigger cheek-kissers in the Gulf and we haven’t been hit as hard comparatively.

Ultimately, in Europe and the States, the culture is “to hell with other people. As long as I can have my beer out in the sun. No copper can stop me doing that.”

Reap the rewards.
Given the UAE's fondness for propaganda do you believe your government's figures? Do you know how widely they are testing? Especially in the huge ex-pat population from the Philippines, India and Pakistan?

It wouldn't surprise me if there was far Covid-19 in UAE than reported as your government will control what is published, but other factors such as the weather may partly account for infection levels. Your society is a mixture of things like men holding hands in public but there is also inherent social distancing between unrelated members of the opposite sex.

And your view of your nations adherence to law is also a bit disingenuous in that we all know who you are matters very much indeed when it comes to how laws are applied. You do have the capacity for quick authoritarian lock-down but I'd bet many Emirates are still meeting in large family groups. Hopefully that combination of factors will help slow the spread but I don't think it is as simple and straightforward as you state.
 

carvajal

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
11,053
Location
Spain
Supports
Real Madrid
What are the governments of your countries doing regarding the self-employed? Here they will have to continue paying the fee despite the protests.
On the other hand, dismissals have been prohibited, so possibly many small companies will close when this ends.
But, what will happen if for example on May 1 there are still infections and let's say 50 deaths a day.
Who will be the politician who will dare to take the step after this lack of control?
or let's say that we overcome it (Western Europe) but later the virus attacks hard in another part of the world?
 

Amar__

Geriatric lover and empath
Joined
Sep 2, 2010
Messages
24,002
Location
Sarajevo
Supports
MK Dons
How is this even possible, it doesn't make any sense with any recommendation in any part of the world, or from WHO? Majority of recommendations I have seen elsewhere, patients are in self isolation for even more than 14 days after being tested positive, even if some of them aren't having any symptoms. Is it just the UK thing or he wasn't positive to begin with?

If this is a correct thing to do then surely a isolation of every individual for 7 days for entire world would erase the virus entirely(which clearly isn't the case). I am pretty sure even the 14 day lockdown wouldn't be a problem for population(or countries/regions) if it would solve it.
 

NYAS

Full Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
4,315
Ok, first of all, there are massive cultural differences between Western Countries, even those in relatively close geographical proximity like the EU. Secondly, I would define collective wellfare of a society aka its people as a whole with the (albeit unrealistic) goal to care for each of its citizen as best as it can.

If I compare the general culture of the US with the one of Nordic and Central European countries like for example Germany the differences are in parts massive. This starts with Universal Healthcare, free education, far stricter labour laws (some of the strictest worldwide), a still imperfect but far stronger social safety net in cases of illness. debt, loss of home or unemployment and the list goes on and on. How can the German state afford all of this? Some of the highest employment costs in the world and taxes. Despite being an ecomonic powerhouse the average German citizen while enjoying a high standart of living is actually non that wealthy, because a lot of his/her income is used to finance the Social state. Programs like "Kurzarbeit" which protect people working in struggling companies/branches from unemployment in times of crisis are accepted by the vast majority of the population eventhough it costs billions of tax payer money. The entire retirement system is based on solidarity for people they will probably never meet which puts it in stark contrast to mid eastern countries like Turkey where the care of the elderly is put far more in the hands of the families or Asian countries like Japan where a lot of the money for the retirement comes directly from the companies they worked for.

Why is all of this largely accepted by the German public? Because culturally it values things the most in difference to other countries.According to studies the one thing that is valued the most in the US is the freedom or liberty to build your own life like you want to do. In Germany? It is safety. This is to a large part historically originated, especially from the first years post WWII, which were plagued by shortages and poverty. Eventhough many actually did not live in that time, it is still an integral part of the education and upbringing. The thought in the back of your mind that you want to be cared for if you fall in hard times and need help. This need for your own safety breeds solidarity for others, to help them in times of need so you might receive help yourself if needed.

It is by no means a more noble cultural outlook than for example the American way of life because it is ultimately motivated by a individual desire for safety, but it leads to a more society orientated thinking.

So which way is now the Western culture? There is none IMO, it is just a buzz word.


To come back to the actual topic of the thread, the desire for safety is one of the reasons why Germany has been less shaken by the virus than other countries. Besides an obvious luck factor especially the younger average age of infected people in the first wave, the German heath system runs nowhere near maximum capacity in normal times, which leaves a lot of reserves in times of crisis. The very high number of ICU beds for example in relation to other countries is simply the desire to prepare for hard times. It is normally nowhere near cost effecitve but if something really bad happens, it can save lifes-
I agree, there surely is a massive difference between American and German cultures regarding those points. I don’t mean to say that they are all the same.

Given the UAE's fondness for propaganda do you believe your government's figures? Do you know how widely they are testing? Especially in the huge ex-pat population from the Philippines, India and Pakistan?

It wouldn't surprise me if there was far Covid-19 in UAE than reported as your government will control what is published, but other factors such as the weather may partly account for infection levels. Your society is a mixture of things like men holding hands in public but there is also inherent social distancing between unrelated members of the opposite sex.

And your view of your nations adherence to law is also a bit disingenuous in that we all know who you are matters very much indeed when it comes to how laws are applied. You do have the capacity for quick authoritarian lock-down but I'd bet many Emirates are still meeting in large family groups. Hopefully that combination of factors will help slow the spread but I don't think it is as simple and straightforward as you state.
I can’t speak much for the UAE; as I’m a Kuwaiti who used to live there and have relatives there (my location is outdated) so I haven’t been following their handling of it as much as Kuwait.

From what I’ve seen the UAE has been a bit slow out of the blocks, probably stemming from a desire to minimise the impact on their economy and image. I do agree that they really would have loved to say something like “look at us here, we’re still living the Dubai life and no one is sick”. Obviously that was never realistic, and they are now taking much more intense preventive measures. I spoke yesterday to a friend of mine who works as a doctor in Abu Dhabi and she said most of the Covid-19 cases in her hospital where people from the expat population you mention.
 

Josep Dowling

Full Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
7,622
Ok, first of all, there are massive cultural differences between Western Countries, even those in relatively close geographical proximity like the EU. Secondly, I would define collective wellfare of a society aka its people as a whole with the (albeit unrealistic) goal to care for each of its citizen as best as it can.

If I compare the general culture of the US with the one of Nordic and Central European countries like for example Germany the differences are in parts massive. This starts with Universal Healthcare, free education, far stricter labour laws (some of the strictest worldwide), a still imperfect but far stronger social safety net in cases of illness. debt, loss of home or unemployment and the list goes on and on. How can the German state afford all of this? Some of the highest employment costs in the world and taxes. Despite being an ecomonic powerhouse the average German citizen while enjoying a high standart of living is actually non that wealthy, because a lot of his/her income is used to finance the Social state. Programs like "Kurzarbeit" which protect people working in struggling companies/branches from unemployment in times of crisis are accepted by the vast majority of the population eventhough it costs billions of tax payer money. The entire retirement system is based on solidarity for people they will probably never meet which puts it in stark contrast to mid eastern countries like Turkey where the care of the elderly is put far more in the hands of the families or Asian countries like Japan where a lot of the money for the retirement comes directly from the companies they worked for.

Why is all of this largely accepted by the German public? Because culturally it values things the most in difference to other countries.According to studies the one thing that is valued the most in the US is the freedom or liberty to build your own life like you want to do. In Germany? It is safety. This is to a large part historically originated, especially from the first years post WWII, which were plagued by shortages and poverty. Eventhough many actually did not live in that time, it is still an integral part of the education and upbringing. The thought in the back of your mind that you want to be cared for if you fall in hard times and need help. This need for your own safety breeds solidarity for others, to help them in times of need so you might receive help yourself if needed.

It is by no means a more noble cultural outlook than for example the American way of life because it is ultimately motivated by a individual desire for safety, but it leads to a more society orientated thinking.

So which way is now the Western culture? There is none IMO, it is just a buzz word.


To come back to the actual topic of the thread, the desire for safety is one of the reasons why Germany has been less shaken by the virus than other countries. Besides an obvious luck factor especially the younger average age of infected people in the first wave, the German heath system runs nowhere near maximum capacity in normal times, which leaves a lot of reserves in times of crisis. The very high number of ICU beds for example in relation to other countries is simply the desire to prepare for hard times. It is normally nowhere near cost effecitve but if something really bad happens, it can save lifes-
Great response and why so many are envious of German and Nordic states. I would happily pay more tax in the UK if it meant things worked properly. But like most things I would expect greed and vested interests would get in the way and why many are adverse to paying more tax. You only had to look at the HS2 project to see what I mean. I think we were originally told it would cost around £20 billion. They now estimate it to be more like £100 billion. Yet they can’t find money in the pot to fund the NHS properly. In my lifetime my local hospital hasn’t been expanded at all yet the population increase is 4 fold. Let’s just hope they can cope with Coronavirus.
 

Isotope

Ten Years a Cafite
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
23,554
Tampa megachurch pastor arrested after leading packed services despite 'safer-at-home' orders

https://www.fox13news.com/news/tamp...-packed-services-despite-safer-at-home-orders

The sheriff says up to 500 people were in attendance at Pastor Rodney Howard-Browne's Sunday services.

"We brought in 13 machines that basically kill every virus in the place," Howard-Browne said. "If they sneeze it shoots it down like at 100 miles per hour and it will neutralize it in a split second."
 

Balljy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2016
Messages
3,303
Majority of recommendations I have seen elsewhere, patients are in self isolation for even more than 14 days after being tested positive,
It's 7 days once you test positive to allow the virus to run its course. The 14 days are if you are in a household with somebody else with it or suspect you may have contracted it recently. That's because it can take 7 days to show symptoms and another 7 days for the virus to pass (i.e 14 days).
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
23,381
Location
The Zone
How is this even possible, it doesn't make any sense with any recommendation in any part of the world, or from WHO? Majority of recommendations I have seen elsewhere, patients are in self isolation for even more than 14 days after being tested positive, even if some of them aren't having any symptoms. Is it just the UK thing or he wasn't positive to begin with?

If this is a correct thing to do then surely a isolation of every individual for 7 days for entire world would erase the virus entirely(which clearly isn't the case). I am pretty sure even the 14 day lockdown wouldn't be a problem for population(or countries/regions) if it would solve it.
Honestly it's really not that difficult to understand. They clearly made a child sacrifice in the gardens of Buckingham Palace and Charles regained all of his lost HP points.
 

Utdstar01

Full Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Messages
5,420
How is this even possible, it doesn't make any sense with any recommendation in any part of the world, or from WHO? Majority of recommendations I have seen elsewhere, patients are in self isolation for even more than 14 days after being tested positive, even if some of them aren't having any symptoms. Is it just the UK thing or he wasn't positive to begin with?

If this is a correct thing to do then surely a isolation of every individual for *7 days for entire world would erase the virus entirely(which clearly isn't the case). I am pretty sure even the 14 day lockdown wouldn't be a problem for population(or countries/regions) if it would solve it.


* 7 days is acceptable for the Affluent and like-minded superiors.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
25,496
It's 7 days once you test positive to allow the virus to run its course. The 14 days are if you are in a household with somebody else with it or suspect you may have contracted it recently. That's because it can take 7 days to show symptoms and another 7 days for the virus to pass (i.e 14 days).
That's the UK's guidance but it isn't backed by much and is different to almost all other countries. Most studies have shown you're still contagious for a week following recovery, not showing symptoms.

The 14 days was just incubation period it wasn't a figure for both as you're suggesting.
 

Igor Drefljak

Definitely Russian
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
7,136
Location
The Wastelands
:)

To be somewhat serious I did hear a doctor on Sky news say the test is a little bit uncomfortable(Which I'm guessing is doctor speak for very uncomfortable) but I have no idea if that picture you posted is what really happens. I hope not.
I saw some girl get it done on youtube or something, can't remember...

It looked fecking horrid :lol:
 

Charlie Foley

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
18,308
:)

To be somewhat serious I did hear a doctor on Sky news say the test is a little bit uncomfortable(Which I'm guessing is doctor speak for very uncomfortable) but I have no idea if that picture you posted is what really happens. I hope not.
I’ve had it done, it’s not nice
 

Wibble

In Gadus Speramus
Staff
Joined
Jun 15, 2000
Messages
88,603
Location
Centreback
I agree, there surely is a massive difference between American and German cultures regarding those points. I don’t mean to say that they are all the same.



I can’t speak much for the UAE; as I’m a Kuwaiti who used to live there and have relatives there (my location is outdated) so I haven’t been following their handling of it as much as Kuwait.

From what I’ve seen the UAE has been a bit slow out of the blocks, probably stemming from a desire to minimise the impact on their economy and image. I do agree that they really would have loved to say something like “look at us here, we’re still living the Dubai life and no one is sick”. Obviously that was never realistic, and they are now taking much more intense preventive measures. I spoke yesterday to a friend of mine who works as a doctor in Abu Dhabi and she said most of the Covid-19 cases in her hospital where people from the expat population you mention.
Kuwait is much the same only with even less alcohol ;). Relatively authoritarian regime have some advantages in terms of lockdown but it also isn't quite as straightforward as there are many interacting factors. And here in Australia we now have $1000 fines for first offence and up to 6 months in jail and/or a $11,000 fine for second offences for individuals failing to comply with social distancing requirements and the police have been enforcing this. Not like they would where you live but very authoritarian by our standards.

Fingers crossed we all manage to stop the spread.