WWC19 | Final: USA v Netherlands

Billy Blaggs

Flacco of the Blaggs tribe
Joined
Nov 6, 2000
Messages
25,831
Location
Accidental founder of Blaggstianity.
They’re confident bordering on arrogant, which is what you need to be to play anything at a top level. I like it.
They did and they deserve to be like that.
The only thing that pissed me off was the time wasting with 5 minutes to go.

But they played a flawless world cup in the knockout rounds.

And Rapinoe is a really great captain. Did you see the speech when they did the montague?
 

Harry190

Bobby ten Hag
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
7,617
Location
Canada
The level of passing and defending was truly shocking. Some proper Sunday league displays on offer today.
 

Billy Blaggs

Flacco of the Blaggs tribe
Joined
Nov 6, 2000
Messages
25,831
Location
Accidental founder of Blaggstianity.
It was something like... And I'm adding lib because I can't quote it verbatim.

This isn't just us this for the girls and boys
For America.
Not the now!
Forever!
When you remember you'll always remember
When we break through the glass ceiling!
The will remember you

Something like that.

Brilliant!


Superb display of football.
 

SquishyMcSquish

New Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
8,198
Supports
Tottenham
Looks like they didn't care, it was mostly a training.
Uh, even if you're in training mode you don't lose that badly.

The Australia team also got beat 7-0 by a boy's team. The Manchester United women's team I'm pretty sure got hammered by Salford FC's kids.

You could put any top male side up against a boy's side and in training mode they'd still win 7/8-0.

The gulf is huge and there's still loads of work to do to improve the women's game. Making good strides though and it's still fun to watch.
 

Harry190

Bobby ten Hag
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
7,617
Location
Canada
feck off. It's the 9th world cup. What the feck do you expect. They played their guts out.

Put your ball skills up on YouTube and I'll tweet one of the US team what you just said.
I was referring to the Netherlands. It was comical. Diabolically so at times. Effort, indeed, quality, no.
 

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,637
I don't think the Netherlands were particularly good. And seem to have progressed to the Final somewhat fortunately, imo.

The general level of skills - control, passing, shooting, even GK is now pretty acceptable, imo. For it to be a mainstream & televised women's sport. I'm not sure that was the case 4 years ago, really.

I don't see the point in comparing it directly to the standard of men's football. Particularly men's football at the elite level.

But for the record, the best female players probably now have skills better than some men who get paid for playing I would have thought.
 

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,637
A lot of the USA overall advantage was about their organisation & fitness for me. Possibly average level of ability - they have a larger pool to select from don't they? I'm gathering that participation is higher from what people are saying because it is played in the colleges.

That is only just starting to happen in the UK now, really.
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
24,562
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
If there is somethin
I don't think the Netherlands were particularly good. And seem to have progressed to the Final somewhat fortunately, imo.

The general level of skills - control, passing, shooting, even GK is now pretty acceptable, imo. For it to be a mainstream & televised women's sport. I'm not sure that was the case 4 years ago, really.

I don't see the point in comparing it directly to the standard of men's football. Particularly men's football at the elite level.

But for the record, the best female players probably now have skills better than some men who get paid for playing I would have thought.
Our goalkeeper is quite good and we're very strong at set pieces, being a fairly tall people. That's how we got there.
 

Billy Blaggs

Flacco of the Blaggs tribe
Joined
Nov 6, 2000
Messages
25,831
Location
Accidental founder of Blaggstianity.
I find this to be a real pisser. We're comparing a sport dominated by men for over a hundred years.

We're judging these women who have made it to the elite level of what was a man's sport and that most of you couldn't even dream of making a team that would even qualify much less win a world cup.

Is it slower than the men's. Do they have a Ronaldo, a Messi?
Yes it's slower. No they don't have a player like that (Morgan and Rapinoe) maybe.
 

Bobski

Full Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2017
Messages
9,921
Is there a double standard here? Did they behave any differently than a mens team does?
No they didn't, and it is ok and perfectly healthy to criticize women when they behave like arseholes, just as it is to criticize men.

To take it outside of football and look at a dominant team from another sport, the NZ Rugby Union team are constantly accused of arrogance, entitled etc. Goes with the territory of being the best.
 

Harry190

Bobby ten Hag
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
7,617
Location
Canada
I find this to be a real pisser. We're comparing a sport dominated by men for over a hundred years.

We're judging these women who have made it to the elite level of what was a man's sport and that most of you couldn't even dream of making a team that would even qualify much less win a world cup.

Is it slower than the men's. Do they have a Ronaldo, a Messi?
Yes it's slower. No they don't have a player like that (Morgan and Rapinoe) maybe.
You do realize that they can't be as good as men? If the sport had been dominated by women for a century and men took it up 3 years ago, they'd be comfortably superior by virtue of their physical superiority. You can't fight natural differences.

You've gone on a Quixotic tangent with the comparisons to regular people and comparing skillsets. No one's seriously considering that. Add to that that you're buying wholesale into the Nike propaganda and empty messaging about ceilings. Watch out for your idols when they're only there to extirpate as much money from you under false pretenses. It's easy to virtue signal, less so to truly support what they're saying.

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/...eave-pregnancy-sponsorship-alysia-montano-nyt
 

Billy Blaggs

Flacco of the Blaggs tribe
Joined
Nov 6, 2000
Messages
25,831
Location
Accidental founder of Blaggstianity.
You do realize that they can't be as good as men? If the sport had been dominated by women for a century and men took it up 3 years ago, they'd be comfortably superior by virtue of their physical superiority. You can't fight natural differences.

You've gone on a Quixotic tangent with the comparisons to regular people and comparing skillsets. No one's seriously considering that. Add to that that you're buying wholesale into the Nike propaganda and empty messaging about ceilings. Watch out for your idols when they're only there to extirpate as much money from you under false pretenses. It's easy to virtue signal, less so to truly support what they're saying.

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2019/...eave-pregnancy-sponsorship-alysia-montano-nyt
:rolleyes:
I'm on a tangent.

Ffs man
 

Jacko21

Full Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2016
Messages
4,577
Location
Manchester
The standard of goalkeeping and a general lack of composure on the ball were the two things that I’ve long thought held the women’s game back.

And whilst you still see that amongst the developing teams (and even in the ‘elite’ teams), generally speaking the standard is much higher.

Frankly, games between the best domestic/national teams are far more watchable than they ever were.
 
Last edited:

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,637
imo, this discussion is conflating 2 different subjects

#1 - is women's football - as it stands atm, being over-hyped a little bit? (let's say it is, I can understand why people would think that)

#2 - they are not as good as the men

I don't see that #2 is relevant. I don't see how or why #2 has to have any connection with #1.

#1 needs to be seen in the light of them trying to develop the game, surely?

Unless you think that #2 means that they ought not to be trying to develop the game.

And if it's for monetary reasons - have you seen the state of men's football with regard to it being exploited for money?

And yes, it probably is being used as a vehicle for the equal rights entitlement of women to get publicised & promoted but that is everywhere as well because we live in changing times for that as well.

Women - you're crap at footy - get back into the kitchen & bedroom where you belong. Can we not do any better than that, seriously.
 

Harry190

Bobby ten Hag
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
7,617
Location
Canada
Who cares?

How about judge women vs women on their own merit rather than comparing them to men vs men?
We're all saying the same thing, just differently.

It started because of the criticism against Holland and their inability to pass or defend simple balls or situations. If they're rubbish, they ought not be sheltered from criticism.
 

Charlie Foley

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
18,371
Who cares?

How about judge women vs women on their own merit rather than comparing them to men vs men?
Why is there even a conversation beyond this?

They’re better than the other women’s teams. That’s all that matters. I for one am excited to see the European nations progress in the near future. The US has set the bar and other teams will have to meet it and we’ll all be better off if and when they do.

Also, Alex Morgan exists, why is anyone discussing anything else?
 

Bullhitter

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
766
Location
in the opposite direction of crowds
Supports
Chelsea
I only watched from the quarter finals onwards but I thought the Dutch keeper van Veenendaal would have been a more worthy winner of the Golden Ball. She was the most consistently impressive player across the seven games I watched (skipped the 3rd place game)
 

SER19

Full Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
12,662
Of course the 2 should be judged separately. Women's football is a fantastic thing and is improving massively. Unfortunately rather than focusing on this there has been a constant narrative pushed throughout this world Cup about treatment of the women's game compared to men's and the absurd almost nonsensical conversation about women getting paid the same.

This nonsense forces the conversation to compare the 2 and while men are performing at an exponentially higher level (I think most would agree a conference side would dismantle the women's world champions) they undoubtedly should get paid more and will earn more revenue.

This is not a criticism of the women's game, but don't bleat on about absolute rubbish and not expect a backlash.
 

Suedesi

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
23,873
Location
New York City
Not sure what is salty about the fact that the England game was much closer than this one. Dutch finished second and congratulations to them but not once today did it feel like they had an actual chance , the USA keeper barely had a touch. On the other hand England scored one , missed a penalty and had one disallowed for a really close offside .

It became clear after 13 minutes that this was going to be a different kind of game for the USA. The Netherlands, it turned out, were different from any team they had faced at this World Cup. But the US had something no other side in the tournament had: Megan Rapinoe, the biggest star of the World Cup, and the confidence she embodies.

After steamrolling their way through the rest of the tournament and scoring within 12 minutes in every game, the mighty Americans had to wait an agonizing 61 minutes to score against a team that very much got their tactics right. Although the Dutch goalkeeper, Sari van Veenendaal, was called on to make a handful of saves, the Netherlands were more organized and gave the Americans less space than any other team in this World Cup. The Americans’ tactics often looked stale – they tried their darnedest to come out as the aggressors, just as they have this entire tournament, by playing direct and looking to spring attackers in behind.

...

The momentum had noticeably slipped for the Americans by the time half-time approached. That’s when the Dutch got out on a quick counterattack and center-back Abby Dahlkemper, unable to toe-poke the ball away, shoved Lineth Beerensteyn, earning a yellow card. Shortly after that Kelley O’Hara and Lieke Martens clashed heads and O’Hara had to be replaced by the surprise roster inclusion Ali Krieger. At about the time Becky Sauerbrunn, the USA’s rock along the backline, went down with blood streaming from her face, it looked like the Americans might be in trouble.

But what they have counted on throughout this World Cup, more than their quality, their athleticism or their experience, has been their mentality. Rapinoe, who at one point shook her fists at her teammates as if to say, “Let’s step it up!” has embodied that mentality. The supreme confidence that some party-poopers labeled arrogance meant the US were never out of games here in France, even when the French arguably played better, the Spanish kicked the hell out of them or the Dutch choked off their service.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/jul/07/usa-netherland-world-cup-final-megan-rapinh

This is the Guardian's report on the game, which is in line with comments that I made earlier that the Dutch tactically and physically posed more problems for the US team than anyone including England. They also rightly mention France and Spain as other tough matches for the US. England are not even mentioned, must be the Guardian's anti-English bias at work?
 
Last edited:

Suedesi

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2001
Messages
23,873
Location
New York City
The excessive celebrations against Thailand
Morgan's tea celebration
Morgan's excessive diving
The virtue signalling about them being criticised for it for being women, rather than their actual actions.

If it was the men's USA team, or say Spain, it'd be annoying too. Just like Suarez or Pepe are to others. It's one of those things though, it's grating to opposition's, but obviously not to people from the USA. They're arrogant, but they back it up, so fair enough. Just hopefully in years to come they'll have some actual opposition, currently the European teams are still a good 5-10 years behind where the USA is development and facilities wise, which imo undervalues their achievements given the lack of serious contenders.
With No Argument on Substance, Critics Take Aim at U.S.’s Style
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/06/sports/soccer/uswnt-world-cup-final.html

It started, of course, with that rampage against Thailand, a team of world champions running up the score against a group of semiprofessionals, celebrating each and every one of their 13 goals with something approaching delirium. Some indistinct border of decency had been crossed, it was decided, even if the team had no idea whatsoever what the problem could possibly be.

The knockout stages brought yet more focus on how the players chose to celebrate. Piers Morgan’s objections to Megan Rapinoe’s striking a pose after scoring against France can probably be written off as a transparent attempt to ingratiate himself with President Trump. The response to Morgan’s tea-sipping celebration against England might easily be seen as confected outrage, that most valuable of currencies in the modern news media climate.

In between those two incidents, though, the English news media took exception to the news that the United States had scouted out the hotel England was using before the semifinal as a possible base for the final: the sort of forward-planning that pretty much every team in the world would undertake, but interpreted as yet more proof of the unthinking arrogance of the U.S. (Such was the paranoia, at that point, that a further minor storm brewed when it was briefly thought that the Americans had sent someone to spy on an England training session; it turned out — thankfully, for the sake of moral decency — that it was just a confused passer-by).

Individually, all of these incidents fall somewhere on the border between trivial and laughable. Taken together, though, they indicate a pattern; their frequency suggests a trend toward the policing of the behavior — and particularly the joy — of the American players. There is no question that this United States team is revered for its efficacy, its talent, its history; nobody would deny its claim to be the best in the world. It does not, though, seem to be especially well-liked.

It is not satisfactory, either, to put it down to the Americans’ penchant for preplanned celebrations. Choreographed routines are not, it is fair to say, universally popular — it is a personal view that they feel too contrived to be genuine expressions of joy — but, again, non-American players with trademark routines, like White and her goggles, have gone largely unremarked.


What, then, might be at the root of it? Morgan also suggested that female athletes are expected to greet their triumphs demurely, diffidently, in a way that would not be expected of men.

That is not, though, this American team’s style, and nor should it be. Morgan and her teammates regard themselves — with abundant supporting evidence — as the best in the world. That they are willing to say so publicly speaks volumes not only of the standards they expect of themselves, but of their awareness that they are role models as much as athletes. They have a platform for empowerment, and do not intend to be discouraged from using it.

By the same token, though, it is perhaps understandable that opposing players, and opposing fans, might not especially appreciate finding themselves in the audience for a display of American greatness. This United States is the dominant force in women’s soccer, and has been for a decade or more; it has the air of a dynasty about it, an overweening, immutable empire. That comes with the inevitable consequence that rivals and challengers and usurpers tend to want to see it fall, to take pleasure in its perceived failings, to start to feel resentment alongside their reverence.

Perhaps, then, there is a compliment hidden in the criticism: If it is only the manner of the American victories that people can take issue with, some nebulous sense of a line being crossed, then that is proof of the scale of their dominance. Or perhaps not; perhaps it is cultural, that old trope of Europeans defining their own refinement through the prism of American brashness.

Either way, one thing has become increasingly clear over the last month in France. This United States team does not, when it comes down to it, care what other people think of it. It is here to win games, to claim a prize, to conquer the world. Whether it makes friends along the way is secondary. It is not in the business of inspiring affection. It is here to inspire awe, and it has done that rather nicely.


Morgan, when asked to explain her celebration against England, offered a compelling explanation for why that might be: that women, unlike men, are expected to restrain themselves in celebration, in particular, to maintain a standard foisted upon them by others. “There is some sort of double standard for females in sports,” she said. They are encouraged “to feel like we have to be humble in our successes; we have to celebrate, but not too much; we have to do something, but in a limited fashion.” Such self-containment, she said, is not asked of men.

She is doubtless right to suggest that women’s behavior is monitored far more than men’s, but it is worth noting that it is only American women who have been criticized for going too far in their moments of euphoria in this tournament. Nobody has suggested White or Sam Kerr or Vivianne Miedema might like to tone it down. Kerr was broadly praised, indeed, for her bluntness in telling off her critics after Australia defeated Brazil in the group stage. That indicates that nationality, as well as gender, is a relevant factor in the censure.

It is not satisfactory, either, to put it down to the Americans’ penchant for preplanned celebrations. Choreographed routines are not, it is fair to say, universally popular — it is a personal view that they feel too contrived to be genuine expressions of joy — but, again, non-American players with trademark routines, like White and her goggles, have gone largely unremarked.

What, then, might be at the root of it? Morgan also suggested that female athletes are expected to greet their triumphs demurely, diffidently, in a way that would not be expected of men.

That is not, though, this American team’s style, and nor should it be. Morgan and her teammates regard themselves — with abundant supporting evidence — as the best in the world. That they are willing to say so publicly speaks volumes not only of the standards they expect of themselves, but of their awareness that they are role models as much as athletes. They have a platform for empowerment, and do not intend to be discouraged from using it.

By the same token, though, it is perhaps understandable that opposing players, and opposing fans, might not especially appreciate finding themselves in the audience for a display of American greatness. This United States is the dominant force in women’s soccer, and has been for a decade or more; it has the air of a dynasty about it, an overweening, immutable empire. That comes with the inevitable consequence that rivals and challengers and usurpers tend to want to see it fall, to take pleasure in its perceived failings, to start to feel resentment alongside their reverence.

Perhaps, then, there is a compliment hidden in the criticism: If it is only the manner of the American victories that people can take issue with, some nebulous sense of a line being crossed, then that is proof of the scale of their dominance. Or perhaps not; perhaps it is cultural, that old trope of Europeans defining their own refinement through the prism of American brashness.

Either way, one thing has become increasingly clear over the last month in France. This United States team does not, when it comes down to it, care what other people think of it. It is here to win games, to claim a prize, to conquer the world. Whether it makes friends along the way is secondary. It is not in the business of inspiring affection. It is here to inspire awe, and it has done that rather nicely.




 

Classical Mechanic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
35,216
Location
xG Zombie Nation
Such a dumb article. People weren’t complaining about celebrations that have a novelty factor. They complained about gratuitous celebrations against a vastly inferior opponent in Thailand when they were on the end of a humiliating defeat. The complaints against the England celebration were because what have been discussed countless times in the thread.

What does White celebrating like her favourite player have to do with the price of fish? Who would that offend?
 

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,637
I thought White's celebrations went on for about a week every time she scored, tbf. And were crap.

But I am a miserable git.
 

Stookie

Nurse bell end
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
9,113
Location
West Yorkshire
I find this to be a real pisser. We're comparing a sport dominated by men for over a hundred years.

We're judging these women who have made it to the elite level of what was a man's sport and that most of you couldn't even dream of making a team that would even qualify much less win a world cup.

Is it slower than the men's. Do they have a Ronaldo, a Messi?
Yes it's slower. No they don't have a player like that (Morgan and Rapinoe) maybe.
I agree billy, people should just take it for what it is. Of course it’s not going to be as finished as the men’s game. Just enjoy it. I don’t go and watch my son play football and come home and say ‘well their not as good as the premier league’
 

montpelier

Full Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
10,637
I believe Lucy Bronze won the Silver Ball.

Bit of a challenge for her Feng shui adviser when she gets that home, :D.
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
24,562
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
All this whinging about level. I enjoyed the tournament greatly and was quite bummed we didnt win.

I even screamed the stonewall pen was never a pen. Feels like football to me.
 

Nipower888

Full Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
403
Supports
Man city
We can only whine about bad football when it's men playing? That's sexist. Those poooor little women, we need to to tell they're really great instead of the truth which they surely can't handle.

This is the level:
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
Its sexist when you don't care about women's foot and are just in here just to cry about how women's football is poor without adding anything else to the discussion. There's a bunch of you guys whose sole purpose in life seems to point out that women's soccer is bad/poor in a thread about women's soccer that you can so easily ignore. You just want to be smug, negative high/mighty and crap on women's football for no reason thats why your sexist. Sometimes things aren't for you and you have to recognize that and keep it moving quietly. That scrimmage means nothing because 1. Obviously men and women are at different levels and 2. It's a scrimmage. If you had fair criticisms that havent been said 1000 times people would care but same shit different day
 

Member 93275

Guest
Its sexist when you don't care about women's foot and are just in here just to cry about how women's football is poor without adding anything else to the discussion. There's a bunch of you guys whose sole purpose in life seems to point out that women's soccer is bad/poor in a thread about women's soccer that you can so easily ignore. You just want to be smug, negative high/mighty and crap on women's football for no reason thats why your sexist. Sometimes things aren't for you and you have to recognize that and keep it moving quietly. That scrimmage means nothing because 1. Obviously men and women are at different levels and 2. It's a scrimmage. If you had fair criticisms that havent been said 1000 times people would care but same shit different day
It's sexist that you state I just cry about the poor standard because they are women, and it's my sole purpose in life. Thanks for making that sexist rant up, because I have a penis. Apparently if you have a penis you can only complain about Smaling or Lingard, how sexist. Note that I only dared to complain about the football, while you start a vile sexist attack on the person.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kouroux

45k posts to finally achieve this tagline
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
96,000
Location
Djibouti (La terre des braves)
Its sexist when you don't care about women's foot and are just in here just to cry about how women's football is poor without adding anything else to the discussion. There's a bunch of you guys whose sole purpose in life seems to point out that women's soccer is bad/poor in a thread about women's soccer that you can so easily ignore. You just want to be smug, negative high/mighty and crap on women's football for no reason thats why your sexist. Sometimes things aren't for you and you have to recognize that and keep it moving quietly. That scrimmage means nothing because 1. Obviously men and women are at different levels and 2. It's a scrimmage. If you had fair criticisms that havent been said 1000 times people would care but same shit different day
What if a woman finds it terrible ? Would that be sexist too ?
 

Nipower888

Full Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
403
Supports
Man city
What if a woman finds it terrible ? Would that be sexist too ?
I mean it’s not sexist to find it bad it’s sexist to go out of your way in a forum thread where people clearly are supporting woman’s soccer to complain. Just don’t like it in peace.