WWC19 | Final: USA v Netherlands

[SquishyMcSquish]

Yup, incredibly tough rule on defenders. We benefited big time from it vs PSG but I never doubted it was a fecked up change.

As if modern football needed to make it easier on attacking players anyway. I guess it's exciting and unpredictable though that nearly every decisive CL game seemed to have some dumb handball incident at its core.

Attacking players will obviously exploit it as well. Just so stupid.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

It was nothing to do with VAR for me, the refereeing was just farcical.

I agree. VAR in itself isn’t the problem, it’s the referees who, I think for the most part, aren’t used to handling such high level games. Add to that the fairy new use of VAR which I’m sure most are actually implementing for the first time ever and it becomes understandable that we have had many such joke decisions.

I think the quality of the women’s game has improved markedly but the refereeing has been a huge let down throughout the games played so far. I don’t know the lady who refereed the Sco-Arg game but it’s only her 5th ever WC game and (judging from her nationality) I don’t know if she regularly referees top level matches.

If some women are allowed in the men’s game, I don’t see why men can’t be allowed to referee in the women’s game as well to fill the numbers, instead of having mediocre refs for matches with such high stakes.

 

[kouroux]

I agree. VAR in itself isn’t the problem, it’s the referees who, I think for the most part, aren’t used to handling such high level games. Add to that the fairy new use of VAR which I’m sure most are actually implementing for the first time ever and it becomes understandable that we have had many such joke decisions.

I think the quality of the women’s game has improved markedly but the refereeing has been a huge let down throughout the games played so far. I don’t know the lady who refereed the Sco-Arg game but it’s only her 5th ever WC game and (judging from her nationality) I don’t know if she regularly referees top level matches.

If some women are allowed in the men’s game, I don’t see why men can’t be allowed to referee in the women’s game as well to fill the numbers, instead of having mediocre refs for matches with such high stakes.

Imagine the uproar though and you know it will happen.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

Imagine the uproar though and you know it will happen.

Yeah, I know.

But if people could think it through calmly, leaving out all emotion, it serves the women’s game better to have decent refs handling their matches (regardless of sex), rather than insisting on women-only refereeing with the risk of poor refs ruining otherwise excellent matches with terrible decisions.

 

[duffer]

There's lots of areas where the mens game is better than the womans but the refs are equally shite.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

Why do you need female only referees at all?

And that goes for the reverse, if there's female referees who are at the top of their game and capable of refereeing PL/CL games etc, then go ahead and let them. Sian Massey is a pretty good official.

 

[SquishyMcSquish]

There's lots of areas where the mens game is better than the womans but the refs are equally shite.

I've actually been quite impressed with a lot of the women's games but goalkeeping far more than refereeing consistently stands out as woeful. You have goals being put up for goal of the tournament thus far where the keeper has gone all spaghetti arms on it.

And no offence to the Thailand keeper, but I wouldn't want her in the net for my sunday league team. And our current keeper is 5'6 and it's a toss up whether he'll be throwing up on the pitch each week because he got hammered the night before.

 

[Judge Red]

It’s not so much that VAR is bad or wrong but it makes you go back and think of how different the history of the game would be if it had always been there.

 

[ninjaskill]

The VAR officials are male, I presume as no womens league has used VAR so none had experience operating it. I would say the standard of reffing has been alright but with a couple really poor refs.

It was six minutes from the start of the VAR pause to the second penalty going in and only five minutes of added time, Argentina should be the more outraged as they had already scored three without reply so with the six minutes plus other injury time could have easily scored a fourth goal to put themselves through to the round of 16.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

I feel so bad for Scotland. I really hoped that they would qualify and get more prize money to redistribute in to the women's game. Horrific collapse in the last 21 minutes, how the referee stopped the game after 8 interrupted minutes and nothing extra added on is ridiculous.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I've actually been quite impressed with a lot of the women's games but goalkeeping far more than refereeing consistently stands out as woeful. You have goals being put up for goal of the tournament thus far where the keeper has gone all spaghetti arms on it.

And no offence to the Thailand keeper, but I wouldn't want her in the net for my sunday league team. And our current keeper is 5'6 and it's a toss up whether he'll be throwing up on the pitch each week because he got hammered the night before.

The standard of goalkeeping in the women's game is appalling.

It's like every other aspect has evolved and improved dramatically apart from that. Anything above head height and it's a goal.

 

[Foxbatt]

Was it Gary Neville on the drums in the England Supporters band?

 

[Rolandofgilead]

The standard of goalkeeping in the women's game is appalling.

It's like every other aspect has evolved and improved dramatically apart from that. Anything above head height and it's a goal.

i strongly disagree, I have seen some fantastic goalkeeping at this tournament, Karen Bardsleys save tonight in the top corner was immense.

 

[roseguy64]

This is just daft.

What's particularly less unfair about thwacking your rubbish shot against the referee but scoring from the rebound. Than a rebound sending the opposition forward running clear.


Presumably it's to avoid 'silly stuff' happening.

Think I saw something last season where a ball was booted off the referee accidentally and it flew into the net and the goal was given.

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[roseguy64]

i strongly disagree, I have seen some fantastic goalkeeping at this tournament, Karen Bardsleys save tonight in the top corner was immense.

It's been a mix of great and terrible. Far too much variance. Like Hope Solo said, more work needs to be done with goalies. They're neglected with no specialist coaches because of limited budgets so unless your goalie was good enough to be at a proper US football programme like Jamaica's Schneider or a pro like Chile's Endler. If you're not one of the big nations with pro/semi-pro leagues like England and USA then it's basically just luck having a good enough goalie.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

It's been a mix of great and terrible. Far too much variance. Like Hope Solo said, more work needs to be done with goalies. They're neglected with no specialist coaches because of limited budgets so unless your goalie was good enough to be at a proper US football programme like Jamaica's Schneider or a pro like Chile's Endler. If you're not one of the big nations with pro/semi-pro leagues like England and USA then it's basically just luck having a good enough goalie.

Yeah i understand that, i just think that the keepers specifically in this tournament are getting an unfair amount of criticism. I have seen some mistakes and some have been pretty bad, But i have also seen some wonderful saves, some fantastic handling and some very impressive commanding of the penalty area. I feel like perhaps a lot of people have perhaps tuned in to see some poor football so that they are justified in their criticism of the women's game, but there hasn't been much to laugh at and so they are picking up on the easy targets. I could be wrong, but as a keeper myself i know that on the whole people tend to jump straight on the keeper for goals conceded, no matter how justified.

 

[montpelier]

There is some uneveness (Thailand) but everything is much better than it was, even just 4 years ago, imo.

 

[redshaw]

England have looked good, average and terrible across the games so far. I doubt they can put together 90mins against the USA for example but we'll see.

Overall the standard of the world cup has improved. Really impressed with some of the headers and crossing, outside of the foot balls through and top finishing like White last night. I don't think smaller pitches are needed.

 

[jojojo]

Thursday 20 June
E: Cameroon vs New Zealand 17:00 - BBC red button
E: Netherlands vs Canada 17:00 - BBC website
F: Sweden vs United States 20:00 - BBC Four
F: Thailand vs Chile 20:00 - BBC red button

Cameroon, New Zealand, Thailand, Chile are all currently on zero points. However, even Thailand can still get into the R16 as best third place if they win (and Cameroon/New Zealand ends in a draw).

Everyone else is playing for first or second. As whoever tops group F will expect to play France in the QF and (I hope) England in the SF - that match might not be as intense a workout for the USA as it ought to be

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Think I saw something last season where a ball was booted off the referee accidentally and it flew into the net and the goal was given.

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I don’t see why the had to change the rules for something that hardly ever happens..I’ve never heard of it before & besides a ref is part of the game & if the ball hits him & goes to the opposition then so be it..the game just continued with no moaning, yet now everyone gets outraged over perceived unfairness which has led us to the debacle that is VAR

 

[Grande]

Three things:

How sad for Scotland, collapsing Barcelona-style like that. Also bad development of the tournament for Kirsty Smith, who played so well against Bronze and Parris, to struggle against Aya Sameshima and now this.

VAR really is a terrible mess, and most of the problems are not the actual referees judgements, but what it does for refereeing and ultimately the flow of the game. It’s great for people with compulsive order issues who cannot tolerate uncertainty, except that it does not eliminate uncertainty: It only moves the discussion to ‘Why do they review that rule infringement and not this one’. It seems haphazard and imperfect, because it is, only now a commitee spends ten minutes deciding it over the head of the ref instead of the ref doing it in two seconds.

Three: They didn’t get through, but the thing most deserving of notice tonight was Argentina. Four years ago they where cannon fodder. Three years ago their own corrupt FA disbanded the national team for two years running, and a year they got together again and have been fighting back to back like a true team to draw with 2011 World Champions Japan, go toe to toe with current Euro finalists England, and now clawing back a three goal deficit in nerve-wracking style, and as someone mentioned, they were perhaps the most hard done by the lack of time added, as another goal would miraculously send them through. Correa and Banini stands out, but it really is a team effort. Salud!

 

[jojojo]

Three: They didn’t get through, but the thing most deserving of notice tonight was Argentina. Four years ago they where cannon fodder. Three years ago their own corrupt FA disbanded the national team for two years running, and a year they got together again and have been fighting back to back like a true team to draw with 2011 World Champions Japan, go toe to toe with current Euro finalists England, and now clawing back a three goal deficit in nerve-wracking style, and as someone mentioned, they were perhaps the most hard done by the lack of time added, as another goal would miraculously send them through. Correa and Banini stands out, but it really is a team effort. Salud!

You're absolutely right. While a lot of the aftermath is taking about VAR, rule changes and a Scotland collapse - Argentina had a huge story to tell as well.

One of their stars against England, the keeper Vanina Correa, quit football completely for 6 years, because she got so fed up the way the national team was treated. She only started playing again when the team restarted in 2017, and the manager phoned her to say that things could be getting better. She had two year old twins and a full-time job as a cashier by then (she's now got 5 year old twins and a job as a cashier). The Argentina players are still relieved that their FA have started booking hotels for them during tournaments.

It was a big result for them, and could have been bigger (for one team or the other) of the ref hadn't panicked and blown the whistle for ft.

 

[Parma Dewol]

Was really looking forward to the Scotland vs. Argentina game last night, and it did not disappoint!

Thought Scotland had been unlucky to not get a point against either England or Japan. On the other hand, Argentina came into the tournament as huge underdogs, and proved in their first two games that they at least had some fight about them.

The fact that both sides needed a win made it one of the most interesting contests in the tournament so far, and it was fascinating viewing from start to finish. Argentina had the better of the opening exchanges and could have been ahead in 15 minutes, only for the crossbar to deny them. Then Scotland took the lead against the run of play and that seemed to change everything; they dominated the next hour, going 3-0 up and picking Argentina off with ease. Should have been four, but Cuthbert missed a header in the six-yard box, and it was after that that things went wild.

Almost seemed like Argentina had thrown in the towel - taking off their star players to bring on a debutant and a 17-year-old - but despite the commentators' disbelief, they proved to be the right changes in the end. What helped is that Scotland were surely aware of the fact that goal difference would help them, so as they pushed forward for a fourth, Argentina finally found a gap and got one back on the counter. No bother, 3-1 is still a great result, and most likely enough to get through to the knockouts, but all of a sudden the pressure was on and Scotland, who had shown such great composure up until then, seemed to crumble. Next thing you know it's 3-2 and the game is suddenly wide open. Scotland decide to make a couple of subs when the opposition has the chance to put the ball in the box (don't they always say that's the worst time to make a change?), and before you know it a rash challenge gives away a penalty and it's 3-3. Couldn't believe it!

A lot of the talk after the game was about VAR, and though I'm surely in the minority, I thought VAR got just about every decision right in last night's game. It feels very harsh on Scotland, who played so well for an hour and faced some questionable decisions in previous games, but this time the penalty in my opinion was clear cut. The defender may even have got a slight touch of the ball, but the attacker was clearly wiped out; the tackle was rash and, in hindsight, she probably didn't need to go to ground.

It was then plain to see that the referee was trying her best to explain to the goalkeeper that you must have one foot on the line when the penalty is taken (though, watching on TV, it seemed the keeper had no intention of listening and was instead trying her best to delay the taking of the pen). Felt so incredibly harsh at the time to have it taken again, but now that I've had time to think about it, it was in my opinion absolutely the right call. The rule is what it is (that's another debate entirely) but it was enforced correctly and it's not like the rule was invented before kick off. I can't believe goalkeepers aren't practising and preparing for it during training? The refs are even making it clear before any spot kick is taken. What's most frustrating is that the first penalty attempt was such a poor effort; had the keeper stayed on her line she could have saved it by barely moving.

I thought the amount of stoppage time was wrong - the game probably should have gone on for another few minutes - but if I'm honest, as much as I wanted Scotland to go through, the damage was already done and it was hard to see a way back. Massive lessons to be learned, but I hope the Scottish girls come back even stronger in the next tournament. Some very promising young players - Cuthbert and Emslie in particular are great going forward - and though they imploded in the last 20 minutes, they were ultimately in a mighty tough group and so very nearly made it through.

Also, hats off to Argentina. They were declared dead and buried before the tournament began, and at 3-0 down, you couldn't envisage any sort of comeback. Showed some real grit and determination to get a draw against all odds.

Awesome game - match of the tournament so far in my view - and though these are early days for some of football's rule changes, I think they have potential to improve the game. Ensuring a keeper has at least one foot on the line when a penalty is taken is long overdue. I also like the fact that attacking players can't be in the defensive wall during free kicks, and having the ball in play as soon as a goal kick is taken is very welcome as it fixes a loophole we saw exploited plenty of times last season.

It's going to take the refs some time to action everything properly - and the biggest fear is the often awful Premier League officials making a right hash of it - but from what I've seen in the WWC, I'm looking forward to seeing VAR in the Premier League come August.

 

[montpelier]

For the GK on the line thing,

I think @jojojo said something about how you are always going to dive off one foot rather than both. So they need to take a step of some kind from their starting position.

From off of one foot you can dive either way & disguise the intended direction in an attempt to out-bluff the taker of the penalty.

Obviously, to me, you can't do any of this from the position of having both feet on the line can you? Moving sideways left to dive to the right - it's still fairly obvious you're diving right but won't reach as far.

Common sense should tell you what's a fair save/miss. It has done for long enough, surely. Possibly not perfectly but the GK ought to have some sort of chance surely.

 

[Ainu]

There has to be some leeway with the goalkeeper line rule. The Scotland keeper had just barely moved off of her line when the ball was struck, just to generate some momentum to jump. Keepers who're a yard ahead of their line should be punished for it, but this is just farcical. I don't see how a goalkeeper is realistically expected to have a chance at saving a penalty if this rule is applied without any common sense.

 

[jojojo]

This is hilarious if true, and just adds to the feeling that the VAR officials here are the guinea pigs for next season's pre-season referee training.

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[Grande]

Was really looking forward to the Scotland vs. Argentina game last night, and it did not disappoint!

Thought Scotland had been unlucky to not get a point against either England or Japan. On the other hand, Argentina came into the tournament as huge underdogs, and proved in their first two games that they at least had some fight about them.

The fact that both sides needed a win made it one of the most interesting contests in the tournament so far, and it was fascinating viewing from start to finish. Argentina had the better of the opening exchanges and could have been ahead in 15 minutes, only for the crossbar to deny them. Then Scotland took the lead against the run of play and that seemed to change everything; they dominated the next hour, going 3-0 up and picking Argentina off with ease. Should have been four, but Cuthbert missed a header in the six-yard box, and it was after that that things went wild.

Almost seemed like Argentina had thrown in the towel - taking off their star players to bring on a debutant and a 17-year-old - but despite the commentators' disbelief, they proved to be the right changes in the end. What helped is that Scotland were surely aware of the fact that goal difference would help them, so as they pushed forward for a fourth, Argentina finally found a gap and got one back on the counter. No bother, 3-1 is still a great result, and most likely enough to get through to the knockouts, but all of a sudden the pressure was on and Scotland, who had shown such great composure up until then, seemed to crumble. Next thing you know it's 3-2 and the game is suddenly wide open. Scotland decide to make a couple of subs when the opposition has the chance to put the ball in the box (don't they always say that's the worst time to make a change?), and before you know it a rash challenge gives away a penalty and it's 3-3. Couldn't believe it!

A lot of the talk after the game was about VAR, and though I'm surely in the minority, I thought VAR got just about every decision right in last night's game. It feels very harsh on Scotland, who played so well for an hour and faced some questionable decisions in previous games, but this time the penalty in my opinion was clear cut. The defender may even have got a slight touch of the ball, but the attacker was clearly wiped out; the tackle was rash and, in hindsight, she probably didn't need to go to ground.

It was then plain to see that the referee was trying her best to explain to the goalkeeper that you must have one foot on the line when the penalty is taken (though, watching on TV, it seemed the keeper had no intention of listening and was instead trying her best to delay the taking of the pen). Felt so incredibly harsh at the time to have it taken again, but now that I've had time to think about it, it was in my opinion absolutely the right call. The rule is what it is (that's another debate entirely) but it was enforced correctly and it's not like the rule was invented before kick off. I can't believe goalkeepers aren't practising and preparing for it during training? The refs are even making it clear before any spot kick is taken. What's most frustrating is that the first penalty attempt was such a poor effort; had the keeper stayed on her line she could have saved it by barely moving.

I thought the amount of stoppage time was wrong - the game probably should have gone on for another few minutes - but if I'm honest, as much as I wanted Scotland to go through, the damage was already done and it was hard to see a way back. Massive lessons to be learned, but I hope the Scottish girls come back even stronger in the next tournament. Some very promising young players - Cuthbert and Emslie in particular are great going forward - and though they imploded in the last 20 minutes, they were ultimately in a mighty tough group and so very nearly made it through.

Also, hats off to Argentina. They were declared dead and buried before the tournament began, and at 3-0 down, you couldn't envisage any sort of comeback. Showed some real grit and determination to get a draw against all odds.

Awesome game - match of the tournament so far in my view - and though these are early days for some of football's rule changes, I think they have potential to improve the game. Ensuring a keeper has at least one foot on the line when a penalty is taken is long overdue. I also like the fact that attacking players can't be in the defensive wall during free kicks, and having the ball in play as soon as a goal kick is taken is very welcome as it fixes a loophole we saw exploited plenty of times last season.

It's going to take the refs some time to action everything properly - and the biggest fear is the often awful Premier League officials making a right hash of it - but from what I've seen in the WWC, I'm looking forward to seeing VAR in the Premier League come August.

Thanks for the game review. I do not agree on the opinions about VAR in this instance, it is not about if the VAR decisions are correct or not.

But the match review was a good read. Important though to note that the time adding mistake was critical not only for Scotland, but for Argentine as well, who needed just a goal ti get through. When they had just scored three in about fifteen minutes of playing time, it is not so inconceivable that they could get another in, what, six more minutes.

 

[jojojo]

Quarter of an hour in and no goals in either game.

Canada were given a penalty but it was overturned after VAR review - foul outside the box.

 

[Chillosophy]

We're probably gonna get spanked by the yanks tonight

 

[KirkDuyt]

Lieke Martens is so soft. She gives up at the first sign of opposition.

 

[jojojo]

No goals anywhere so far. If the results stay as they are, Netherlands top the group and Cameroon/New Zealand both get knocked out.

Incidentally if Cameroon/NZ and tonight's Chile/Thailand match both end in draws, and therefore get knocked out - England will play China in the R16. Otherwise we'll play one of today's third placed (winning) teams.

 

[jojojo]

Netherlands score - nice header from a setpiece.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Holland score.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

And Cameroon score, too! I’m sure even 1-nil should be enough to get us through

 

[jojojo]

Cameroon go 1-0 up against New Zealand. As things stand Cameroon will play England.

Canada equalise against Netherlands.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Sinclair is a machine.

 

[Fanatic 00237]

Cameroon should be 2-nil up, unbelievable miss. I can’t believe this!

 

[Sonny1972]

2-1 Holland

 

[jojojo]

Cameroon/NZ drawing 1-1.

 

[jojojo]

Netherlands top the group after a 2-1 win.

New Zealand and Cameroon almost knock each other out, but Cameroon score with seconds to go!