WWC23 | England v Spain - Spain win the World Cup - now it's Spain v the Spanish FA

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Well yeah, thats exactly my point. This place is essentially an echo chamber.
If that's how you feel you should consider not posting here.

Read the contentious threads. People are not warned for their opinions, but how they express them.

The Current Events forum is a good example. When we have the unfortunate overlap and this serious social issues end up in the football forums it's utter chaos.

I can honestly say that some of the most loathesome characters to me personally have no warning points. Because they argue their views coherently and without scattergun insult.

Running around with buzzwords like woke or nazi or radical to dismiss people's opinions will just reveal a lack of willingness to engage and will usher in a downward spiral for the boards.

I have the odd radical view but in can discuss them at length because I've been doing it for decades. I enjoy a good ideological debate. It helps hone one's own ideas.

Most users of the forum love a good debate so an echo chamber would be to nobody's benefit.
 

Charrockero

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TBH all this circus is very entertaining. Of course I don’t like that the players lifetime achievement will be overshadowed, but the media circus itself is an example of bad PR and the longtime corruption of the Spanish FA has been exposed by a kiss and not by the clear unethical authoritative practices of their President. A lot can be learnt from this situation.
 

top1whoisman

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Natalie Portman (and before anyone starts to question why her comments are relevant, she’s a part-owner of a women’s football club in the US) speaking to delegates at the European Clubs’ Association General Assembly in Berlin:

“I wish the players could just focus on the sport. Unfortunately they have had to be political inherently, as we have seen at the last two World Cups.

“The winners previous to this one, the US, were fighting for equal pay at the same time as they were winning the World Cup. This time the Spanish team was fighting against harassment, abuse and assault.

“The resilience of these women to play at the top level whilst being under such unfair and unjust conditions and the ability to be advocates on and off the field is inspiring. I pray for the day they can just be athletes and everything else is fun. For now I find great inspiration from the players.”

Dani Carvajal:
“I want to make a little reference to the statement we issued yesterday as a group. Our president [Rubiales] was not in line with what a president should be at a celebration.

“He had a couple of situations that are not typical of the moment, nor of a president. All of this has created a significant media stir and it is a shame that it has tarnished the title achieved by the ladies. It is a shame that it spoils or overlaps the world title because it is a very important feat for our football. It has not been good for the image of Spanish sport.”
 

4bars

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Now I understand that guy who wouldn't let his girlfriend go on holiday to ibiza. Apparently in some people's minds latin people go around all the time kissing women when they're happy, whether the women like it or not.
I do that all the time and they punch me in the face, but when I told them: "I am latin", they apologize and move on
 

Goalfather

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This whole response seems extreme and it is not going to win Women's football any new friends. I am not minimising the importance of respecting personal boundaries. But I have seen strangers embrace. I have seen fans hug and kiss male players. The kiss did not seem sexual in any way to me and labelling it as sexual assault seems to be taking it one step too far.
 

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This whole response seems extreme and it is not going to win Women's football any new friends. I am not minimising the importance of respecting personal boundaries. But I have seen strangers embrace. I have seen fans hug and kiss male players. The kiss did not seem sexual in any way to me and labelling it as sexual assault seems to be taking it one step too far.
'The whole response' is Rubiales's own fault. If he would have simply apologized, there would have been no uproar. But he chose a warpath against Hermosa, which made this thing grow and grow - especially because Rubiales has priors for bullying and sexism.
 

cafecillos

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Yes, everything Rubiales and his camp have done since the "kiss", starting with his first public appearance and statement, which was a spectacular clusterfeck, has been a disaster and made everything exponentially worse. This can't be stressed enough: he categorically only has himself to blame for all this shitshow, and I am not willing to do any of the mental gymnastics required to feel the tiniest bit sorry for him. Feck him.
 

harrington

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This whole response seems extreme and it is not going to win Women's football any new friends. I am not minimising the importance of respecting personal boundaries. But I have seen strangers embrace. I have seen fans hug and kiss male players. The kiss did not seem sexual in any way to me and labelling it as sexual assault seems to be taking it one step too far.
It remains centrally about the abuse of power. How a man in power can use 'the moment' to try and act with impunity and then, if there is any upshot, use his status to iron it all out. The troubling thing about 'the kiss' for me remains the way Rubiales grips the back of Hermoso's head, and also the way her arms half rise, as though making the beginnings of a move to stop him. Hermoso now know she should've registered her displeasure when it happened, presentation ceremony be damned, although her emotions would've been absolutely roiling. But his hands and her arms, caught half-raised for a second, tell their own story.
 

Goalfather

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It remains centrally about the abuse of power. How a man in power can use 'the moment' to try and act with impunity and then, if there is any upshot, use his status to iron it all out. The troubling thing about 'the kiss' for me remains the way Rubiales grips the back of Hermoso's head, and also the way her arms half rise, as though making the beginnings of a move to stop him. Hermoso now know she should've registered her displeasure when it happened, presentation ceremony be damned, although her emotions would've been absolutely roiling. But his hands and her arms, caught half-raised for a second, tell their own story.

I saw them embrace, their hands wrapped around each other. He kissed her first on the cheek and then on the lips, and she walked away smiling. At no time did she push him away or look displeased. The interaction seemed spontaneous, joyous, and non-sexual. The backlash he now faces appears opportunistic and political. I remember when my country qualified for the World Cup for the first time; strangers embraced and cried in the streets. That's football and the joy it generates. This situation feels different, narrow, and vindictive. I don't know Rubiales from Adam. If he is corrupt or has abused power, let a corrupt act or an abusive act be the source of his downfall, not this
 

harrington

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At the very least Hermoso is giving mixed signals. Her embrace is more passive/more formalised; her hands are lower down on his back. Twice she leans/pulls to her left, his right, as though wanting to avoid dealing with him head-on. His arms hold her higher up and across her body before gripping the back of her head. It's all over in a second or two, so we're practically talking in the realm of micro-gestures. Nevertheless, he's all over her like a cheap suit, as the saying goes.
 

frostbite

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At the very least Hermoso is giving mixed signals. Her embrace is more passive/more formalised; her hands are lower down on his back. Twice she leans/pulls to her left, his right, as though wanting to avoid dealing with him head-on. His arms hold her higher up and across her body before gripping the back of her head. It's all over in a second or two, so we're practically talking in the realm of micro-gestures. Nevertheless, he's all over her like a cheap suit, as the saying goes.
It doesn't matter what signal she gives or she does not give. It is not appropriate for Rubiales to kiss a player this way in public. If the player was a man, and that man wanted a french kiss, do you think Rubiales would do it?
 

harrington

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It doesn't matter what signal she gives or she does not give. It is not appropriate for Rubiales to kiss a player this way in public.
I absolutely agree (some of my earlier replies should make this clear). I was giving a 'reading' of the video that Goalfather posted in order to back up his claim that this is just a case of Rubiales 'overcome with emotion' and it's all basically a storm in a teacup. To listen to some, Hermoso's displeasure is strictly post-incident, but I think you can sense reluctance in her body language during the incident, for what it's worth. But yes, bottom line: wholly inappropriate, and Rubiales is going to have to completely concede that in the end.
 

jojojo

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This whole response seems extreme and it is not going to win Women's football any new friends. I am not minimising the importance of respecting personal boundaries. But I have seen strangers embrace. I have seen fans hug and kiss male players. The kiss did not seem sexual in any way to me and labelling it as sexual assault seems to be taking it one step too far.
To be fair, I doubt anyone who knows the story and still sides with Rubiales was ever going to be much of a friend to women's football. Rubiales and RFEFs conduct towards Hermosa after the match (which includes them threatening to sue her for saying she didn't consent to the kiss) should be enough to tell them exactly the sort of man he is and exactly why he thinks he can abuse his power. "Innocent over-enthusiasm" flies out the window when you start to get your staff to invent statements by the player and threaten legal action.

In terms of the older allegations against him - that include sexual harassment and misuse of funds - hopefully his removal from a position where he can make/break people's careers will see those exposed as well. Unfortunately, that might still be easier said than done because many of the current RFEF leadership may be incriminated at the same time. Hopefully we'll see a couple of whistleblowers bring him down completely.
 

Goalfather

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To be fair, I doubt anyone who knows the story and still sides with Rubiales was ever going to be much of a friend to women's football. Rubiales and RFEFs conduct towards Hermosa after the match (which includes them threatening to sue her for saying she didn't consent to the kiss) should be enough to tell them exactly the sort of man he is and exactly why he thinks he can abuse his power. "Innocent over-enthusiasm" flies out the window when you start to get your staff to invent statements by the player and threaten legal action.

In terms of the older allegations against him - that include sexual harassment and misuse of funds - hopefully his removal from a position where he can make/break people's careers will see those exposed as well. Unfortunately, that might still be easier said than done because many of the current RFEF leadership may be incriminated at the same time. Hopefully we'll see a couple of whistleblowers bring him down completely.

Upon reviewing the video, the interaction appears entirely consensual and non-sexual. It was more of a brief peck on the lips than forced French kiss, following a shared embrace. The gesture concluded with a friendly pat on her back, and she departed with a smile.

The entire exchange took less than five seconds.

Yet, what ensued can best be described as a political vendetta. My sentiments towards the Spanish FA have always been reserved, especially regarding the men's team. However, I did rally behind the women's team in the final. The controversy that emerged post-final has left a sour taste in my mouth.

It's becoming apparent that certain narratives are being deliberately shaped to deepen divisions. It seems pro-feminist factions aim to leverage this incident to push their agenda, seeking as many concessions and changes as possible. Within the Spanish FA, it's evident that there are factions aligned against Rubiales, viewing this situation as an opportune moment to unseat him.

While Rubiales is very likely a skunt and perhaps should be moved, this particular incident has been handled reeks of politics

My broader worry lies in the trajectory of our civic dialogue. The trend appears to be a shift from moderate, reasoned discussion towards more extreme viewpoints. Society is drifting from time-honoured principles of objectivity and the presumption of innocence, veering towards mob mentality and conformist thinking. It's perplexing that in an age with vast information at our disposal, independent thought seems to be dwindling.
 

Stack

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Upon reviewing the video, the interaction appears entirely consensual and non-sexual. It was more of a brief peck on the lips than forced French kiss, following a shared embrace. The gesture concluded with a friendly pat on her back, and she departed with a smile.

The entire exchange took less than five seconds.

Yet, what ensued can best be described as a political vendetta. My sentiments towards the Spanish FA have always been reserved, especially regarding the men's team. However, I did rally behind the women's team in the final. The controversy that emerged post-final has left a sour taste in my mouth.

It's becoming apparent that certain narratives are being deliberately shaped to deepen divisions. It seems pro-feminist factions aim to leverage this incident to push their agenda, seeking as many concessions and changes as possible. Within the Spanish FA, it's evident that there are factions aligned against Rubiales, viewing this situation as an opportune moment to unseat him.

While Rubiales is very likely a skunt and perhaps should be moved, this particular incident has been handled reeks of politics

My broader worry lies in the trajectory of our civic dialogue. The trend appears to be a shift from moderate, reasoned discussion towards more extreme viewpoints. Society is drifting from time-honoured principles of objectivity and the presumption of innocence, veering towards mob mentality and conformist thinking. It's perplexing that in an age with vast information at our disposal, independent thought seems to be dwindling.
Maybe you should do a bit more reading into the history of problems the womens team have had for a long long time. This incident was the straw that broke the camels back.
You minimising what happened doesnt alter the long history of problems or reduce the long building frustration thats taken place.

This has nothing to do with so called pro feminist factions, this is all about doing the right things regarding the Spanish womens team.

You speak of objectivity but show you completely lack of it by ignoring the difficulties, problems and issues that have led to this pushback. This isnt an isolated incident. Its perplexing that in an age with vast information you clearly have no idea of whats gone before but if you are aware then i really cant believe you have ended up at these conclusions. You arent exhibiting independent thought, you are exhibiting a complete lack of thought.
Do better.
 

Goalfather

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Maybe you should do a bit more reading into the history of problems the womens team have had for a long long time. This incident was the straw that broke the camels back.
You minimising what happened doesnt alter the long history of problems or reduce the long building frustration thats taken place.

This has nothing to do with so called pro feminist factions, this is all about doing the right things regarding the Spanish womens team.

You speak of objectivity but show you completely lack of it by ignoring the difficulties, problems and issues that have led to this pushback. This isnt an isolated incident. Its perplexing that in an age with vast information you clearly have no idea of whats gone before but if you are aware then i really cant believe you have ended up at these conclusions. You arent exhibiting independent thought, you are exhibiting a complete lack of thought.
Do better.
He is going to be investigated for sexual assault based on this straw. My whole comment is based on this inconsequential straw. There is nothing in that video that suggests assault. She left the embrace with a big grin on her face, slept on it and then decided it was sexual assault. As I highlighted, I have no compassion for either the Spanish FA or the men's National Team. The way the FA has dealt with contemporary issues like racism etc is tone deaf. However, I can recognise a witchhunt and if there was an investigation to clean the Augean stables. I would have no problem with it. But to use this as the basis is very wrong
 

Stack

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He is going to be investigated for sexual assault based on this straw. My whole comment is based on this inconsequential straw. There is nothing in that video that suggests assault. She left the embrace with a big grin on her face, slept on it and then decided it was sexual assault. As I highlighted, I have no compassion for either the Spanish FA or the men's National Team. The way the FA has dealt with contemporary issues like racism etc is tone deaf. However, I can recognise a witchhunt and if there was an investigation to clean the Augean stables. I would have no problem with it. But to use this as the basis is very wrong

Just keep focussing on one thing, its great, it enables you to conveniently ignore all thats gone befofre and it allows you to absolve yourself from having to take on a greater understanding of the entire issue at hand. Its a very simplistic angle you are taking which is highly amusing given how much you were bleating on about this era with a vast information available to us and the lack of objectivity. Simplistic angles are the exact opposite of objectivity and making use of vast information available.

You mentioned your view of an agenda but amusingly your agenda is on full display with your inability to see the entire issue and broader picture.

This is not an isolated incident. The resulting backlash is a direct result of all thats gone before.
 

Goalfather

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Just keep focussing on one thing, its great, it enables you to conveniently ignore all thats gone befofre and it allows you to absolve yourself from having to take on a greater understanding of the entire issue at hand. Its a very simplistic angle you are taking which is highly amusing given how much you were bleating on about this era with a vast information available to us and the lack of objectivity. Simplistic angles are the exact opposite of objectivity and making use of vast information available.

You mentioned your view of an agenda but amusingly your agenda is on full display with your inability to see the entire issue and broader picture.

This is not an isolated incident. The resulting backlash is a direct result of all thats gone before.
So do you think it is fair and reasonable for him to face sexual assault charges based on that incident?

Do you think it is okay for him to register on the Spanish's equivalent of a sex offender registry based on this incident?

The Spanish FA has historically been corrupt and racist. It wouldn't be shocking if misogyny is also on the list. A comprehensive overhaul is needed, not just removing its figurehead. But genuine reform requires bravery and principles, which seem to be lacking when witch hunts are the easier route.
 

Stack

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So do you think it is fair and reasonable for him to face sexual assault charges based on that incident?

Do you think it is okay for him to register on the Spanish's equivalent of a sex offender registry based on this incident?

The Spanish FA has historically been corrupt and racist. It wouldn't be shocking if misogyny is also on the list. A comprehensive overhaul is needed, not just removing its figurehead. But genuine reform requires bravery and principles, which seem to be lacking when witch hunts are the easier route.
This isnt a witch hunt.

Your problem is you talk of agendas but you use all those phrases that people with agendas use.

Witch Hunt
Pro Feminist factions
Political Vendetta
push their agenda
mob mentality and conformist thinking

Its interesting that you refuse to talk about the long long list and history of past issues that have led to the current anger and frustration.

You keep focussing on one small point, probably because you think its some sort of "Gotcha" point.

You mention the Spanish sex offender registry as though its already happened and your mentioning of it is one of those alarmist phrases people with agendas use.

With respect to facing a sexual assault charge I dont think thats the right thing to be doing.

He should have resigned, he shouldnt have tried to use emotional blackmail to get Hermosa to sign a statement, he shouldnt have kissed her in the first place and there are a long list of well understood reasons why he shouldnt have done that. He shouldnt have made the speech he made, he clearly has no understanding of why he is in the wrong.

Hey but you keep your attention on one part of a much bigger issue. Its simplistic and lacks the objectivity you were championing earlier.

Do you actually understand why his kissing the player on the lips while holding her head so strongly is completely unacceptable?

I spent many years coaching womens football, won a few titles, had involvement at international age group level. Never in a million years would I ever think of kissing a player on the lips, even when we won a championship or cup.

Again, do you understand the reasons its so wrong??
 

Goalfather

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This isnt a witch hunt.

Your problem is you talk of agendas but you use all those phrases that people with agendas use.

Witch Hunt
Pro Feminist factions
Political Vendetta
push their agenda
mob mentality and conformist thinking

Its interesting that you refuse to talk about the long long list and history of past issues that have led to the current anger and frustration.

You keep focussing on one small point, probably because you think its some sort of "Gotcha" point.

You mention the Spanish sex offender registry as though its already happened and your mentioning of it is one of those alarmist phrases people with agendas use.

With respect to facing a sexual assault charge I dont think thats the right thing to be doing.

He should have resigned, he shouldnt have tried to use emotional blackmail to get Hermosa to sign a statement, he shouldnt have kissed her in the first place and there are a long list of well understood reasons why he shouldnt have done that. He shouldnt have made the speech he made, he clearly has no understanding of why he is in the wrong.

Hey but you keep your attention on one part of a much bigger issue. Its simplistic and lacks the objectivity you were championing earlier.

Do you actually understand why his kissing the player on the lips while holding her head so strongly is completely unacceptable?

I spent many years coaching womens football, won a few titles, had involvement at international age group level. Never in a million years would I ever think of kissing a player on the lips, even when we won a championship or cup.

Again, do you understand the reasons its so wrong??
The answer is quite simple, it was the kiss that was the catalyst for him being removed. It is obvious to anyone who actually watched the video that it was consensual and not sexual. I have seen male players hug kiss and embrace after matches, persons are usually emotional and some boundaries are customarily lowered. She did not pull away, embraced him and left the embrace with a big grin on her face.

The other issues are a separate issue altogether but there was no firestorm or resignations following the racist abuse of countless Black players. Bananas are thrown, monkey noises are made and it is business as usual for the Spanish FA. The Ultras remain and the Spanish FA continue to make money hand over fist.

I guess though the non-Rubiales faction are not complicit in any of the ills that bedevil Spanish football and that the removal of Rubiales is the first step in comprehensive systematic reform rather than merely another power grab and that concessions will be made to women's football as a reward to getting rid of a political opponent.

We both know what is likely to happen.


My issue is that the "kiss" sets a very dubious precedent for removal from office. We live in a culture where things like the presumption of innocence are being placed on the back burner to what is politically convenient.
 

Stack

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The answer is quite simple, it was the kiss that was the catalyst for him being removed. It is obvious to anyone who actually watched the video that it was consensual and not sexual. I have seen male players hug kiss and embrace after matches, persons are usually emotional and some boundaries are customarily lowered. She did not pull away, embraced him and left the embrace with a big grin on her face.

The other issues are a separate issue altogether but there was no firestorm or resignations following the racist abuse of countless Black players. Bananas are thrown, monkey noises are made and it is business as usual for the Spanish FA. The Ultras remain and the Spanish FA continue to make money hand over fist.

I guess though the non-Rubiales faction are not complicit in any of the ills that bedevil Spanish football and that the removal of Rubiales is the first step in comprehensive systematic reform rather than merely another power grab and that concessions will be made to women's football as a reward to getting rid of a political opponent.

We both know what is likely to happen.


My issue is that the "kiss" sets a very dubious precedent for removal from office. We live in a culture where things like the presumption of innocence are being placed on the back burner to what is politically convenient.
Answer my question.
Do you know why it was completely unacceptable for him to have kissed the player in the manner he did?
 

Goalfather

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Answer my question.
Do you know why it was completely unacceptable for him to have kissed the player in the manner he did?
Any kind of unwanted physical contact is unacceptable, but in this instance, it did not seem non consensual. She did not look shocked or disturbed in any way.
 

NotThatSoph

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Any kind of unwanted physical contact is unacceptable, but in this instance, it did not seem non consensual. She did not look shocked or disturbed in any way.
Even 50 % of Vox voters, a far-right party, disagree with you.
 

Stack

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No why was it completely unacceptable?

The very first thing is that no where in the commercial world will you see a CEO grab a female employee and take hold of her head and kiss her on the lips when celebrating anything, be it a lawyers court case win, a successful difficult surgery, a company takeover, a big sales success. Its just unprofessional.

The next thing which is a major one is the very clear and obvious power imbalance. Grassroots staff find it very difficult to push back against people in positions above them, positions of power and authority. Fear of reprisals, fear of job loss fear of being seen to be difficult mean people at the bottom end of the ladder are at a disadvantage. Those at the top need to act impeccably to set a standard and level of professionalism for very obvious reasons. Women are especially vulnerable in these power imbalance situations.

Another thing is the responsibility of a higher position to the overall leadership of an institution, acting in a manner unbecoming of a leader erodes faith and trust in a leadership. How can those at the bottom trust those at the top if those at the top take liberties. Its a bit like how we expect the Police to be squeaky clean because we need to trust the police are held to the same laws we are .

Women have for far too long had to simply accept and endure poor behaviour from men. There is a long long history of women being treated badly in the workplace, in the home in society in general.

You keep trying to minimise it because you perceive that she wasnt surprised or offended at the time. She had just won the world cup so of course she was going to be smiling and laughing. Soon after when interviewed on tv she very clearly states she didnt like it. I really dont understand why you keep doubling down on this one thing. I wonder how you would feel if she was your wife and the head of the FA grabbed her head and kissed her on the lips. Its not the worlds most heinous crime but its highly inappropriate.

The very thing you are talking about, the accusations of sexual misconduct are why men in positions of power need to be even more respectful more thoughtful in their conduct. We have to make sure we are clear of the suspicion of inappropriate behaviour because its the right thing to do.

Leaders have an influence on how others act.

I coached girls and women for years, I had to make sure I was squeaky clean in how I behaved and what i said. I had to do that so the women players and girls trusted me and they were comfortable working with me but mostly because they simply didnt deserve to have to deal with someone creepy or sexist. Also the dangers of perceptions of player favouritism come in to play.
 

manutddjw

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Forgive me if the details are wrong as I haven't followed this too closely. From what I understand, after the kiss, on an Instagram Live video she was being ribbed by her teammates about the kiss and made a comment that would certainly lead you believe she was uncomfortable with it. Then the media started having a go at the guy who kissed her and "Spanish Machismo Culture".

The girl who was kissed, then came out and said that she and the guy are friends and it was no big deal. Has there been more to this?
 

Stack

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Forgive me if the details are wrong as I haven't followed this too closely. From what I understand, after the kiss, on an Instagram Live video she was being ribbed by her teammates about the kiss and made a comment that would certainly lead you believe she was uncomfortable with it. Then the media started having a go at the guy who kissed her and "Spanish Machismo Culture".

The girl who was kissed, then came out and said that she and the guy are friends and it was no big deal. Has there been more to this?
You have one bit missing in your timeline. After the game when interviewed on tv she was asked about the kiss, she said she didnt like it. With respect to the media jumping in on it you also have to understand there is a long and well documented history of the Spanish womens team having to deal with sexist and misogynistic behaviour. Decades worth. Minimising the kiss ignores the history. This was the straw that broke the camels back.
 

manutddjw

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You have one bit missing in your timeline. After the game when interviewed on tv she was asked about the kiss, she said she didnt like it. With respect to the media jumping in on it you also have to understand there is a long and well documented history of the Spanish womens team having to deal with sexist and misogynistic behaviour. Decades worth. Minimising the kiss ignores the history. This was the straw that broke the camels back.
Thank you for the information. I did try to google before I posted but everything was an opinion piece so it's nice to have facts.
 

MackRobinson

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Did she appear shocked or discomfited to you in that video?
Why does this matter? This kiss already happened and she might have been in shock. If a woman I was not romantically involved with kissed me on the lips I probably won’t be visibly upset but I sure wouldn’t like it.
 

jojojo

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The girl who was kissed, then came out and said that she and the guy are friends and it was no big deal. Has there been more to this?
She initially said to the press that she only wanted to talk about the football.

Rubiales couldn't get her to do a joint video with him saying how it was all just happy celebration stuff between friends, she refused. So RFEF made up some words and released them as if she said it. He meanwhile did the classic non-apology apology of, "I'm sorry if it bothered other people."

It all went downhill from there. Hermosa said RFEF had made up her statement. By the end of the week we had RFEF threatening the player and the players' union with legal action.

There's a whole history of complaints against Rubiales and RFEF generally that factors in as well. It wasn't just about a one off aberration - there was a before and after to the incident as well.
 

top1whoisman

Meet the press(conference)
Scout
Joined
May 18, 2016
Messages
17,874
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Helsinki
The Spanish FA has broken UEFA rules by not informing the clubs of the players called up to the Nations League matches in time (15 days before the first match). That means the clubs are not obligated to release their players to international duty.
 

Redplane

( . Y . ) planned for Christmas
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
8,449
Location
The Royal Kingdom of Trumpistan
I can't wait for Piers to go away. How this clown keeps getting these interviews is beyond me. In fact - if he s doing the interview I already assume no one else wanted to take you serious so you may as well say admit to being wrong in whatever pitty show you're trying to put on.