Yorke 98/99 vs Van Persie 12/13

POF

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Good OP and an interesting comparison. I have to go with Yorke due to how influential he was in the best team in Europe.

Van Persie was incredible but in a very individual way. Yorke was a talismanic signing and he added a completely different dimension to the attack in the treble winning team.

With RVP, you knew he would have a great impact after how well he performed at Arsenal but I just never saw it with Yorke at Villa. I didn't think he had it in him to be a top class striker at a big club.

I was completely wrong. That season he was outstanding. Easily one of the best players in Europe. He went away from home to some of the biggest clubs in Europe and tore them apart. He was absolutely outstanding.

It's a little sad how it turned out for him. If he had the mentality of an elite player he could have been one of the all time great United players.
 

AkaAkuma

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Ive watched less football as Ive got older, so dont have a full impression of RVP. I think definately he will be remembered as the better player.

BUT, that 98 season was my peak of watching United. Yorke actually elevated that team, not by talent but by momentum. The team was ready but Yorke hit the ground running from what I remember and probably instilled belief. Back in those days there was an inferiority complex about Europe, we'd always ultimately be outsmarted despite our great strides. That one two goal with Cole was a 'we can f##king do this' moment.
 

MadDogg

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Purely in the league I think I'd give it to RVP. Yorke's goals per minute was probably similar and he got a hell of a lot of assists, but he did it in a very good team. Meanwhile RVP was one of only two players (the other being Carrick) who were in truly top form, and those two carried us for much of that season. Everyone else were either champions who were coming to the end of the time and their form had obviously dropped significantly, or young players who we hoped would step up (ultimately none of them did :( ).

Once you include the other competitions it has to go to Yorke though.
 

red4ever 79

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Yorke more for me. Delivered at the highest level and played more as a number 10 for us before number 10's were even a thing. Also delivered over numerous seasons.
 

united_99

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True, but that midfield only reached a CL final and won it the season that Yorke was on fire. Otherwise it was 2 semi-finals and 2 quarter-final finishes. Take out his exceptional link up with Cole and the rest of the team, and you can't say for certain that they would have achieved as much as they did that season.

I think elevating a very good team to a great one (a la Yorke in 1999) is just as impressive as taking a decent team to a very good one (RVP). Yorke was essentially a one-season Cantona in terms of taking us to another level.
Well Yorke was also part of the team in the following seasons so it works both ways, maybe the midfield wasn’t that much on fire in the seasons afterwards, at least not all of them? In the 2 seasons after the treble we lost to the eventual winners, we were never going to win 3 CLs in a row or keep the intensity we showed in 99. The team still won 3 leagues in a row so not that bad after all.
For me Keane & Becks were our best players in 99 (followed by Yorke) whereas in 2013 RvP was our best player.
In the end both players had great seasons and I can see reasons for both.
However for me it is RvP. He was bought to win back the title and he went on and met that expectation.
 

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Well Yorke was also part of the team in the following seasons so it works both ways, maybe the midfield wasn’t that much on fire in the seasons afterwards, at least not all of them? In the 2 seasons after the treble we lost to the eventual winners, we were never going to win 3 CLs in a row or keep the intensity we showed in 99. The team still won 3 leagues in a row so not that bad after all.
For me Keane & Becks were our best players in 99 (followed by Yorke) whereas in 2013 RvP was our best player.
In the end both players had great seasons and I can see reasons for both.
However for me it is RvP. He was bought to win back the title and he went on and met that expectation.
He was nowhere near as good in his other seasons after 1998/99, which is kind of my point - we needed a season like that from him to unlock the full potential of that midfield
 

united_99

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He was nowhere near as good in his other seasons after 1998/99, which is kind of my point - we needed a season like that from him to unlock the full potential of that midfield
But we as a team we weren’t that good either in the following season, not just Yorke. The team was playing every 3-4 days in 98/99 and in the 2nd half of that season mainly against top teams, it was always going to show in the next seasons. Keane still had a very good season directly after the treble, the others were OK oh and the goal keeper situation after Schmeichel left contributed to the “decline” as well.

But we were already good in 97/98 however Keane was out for the season. He then came back in god mode and we bought Yorke and Stam which made the team complete. So the change from previous season wasn’t just Yorke but other factors as well.
 

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I wasn't so sure where I was going to side on this one, as since we bought Yorke we've gone out and replicated the tactic of getting someone who'll have one really good season up front and then be alright but never touching the heights of that one season ever again. When we look to bring in strikers certainly from other Premier League teams with the exception of Rooney, Yorke is the yard stick I compare them too.

However, as I started to think about what to write, I recalled that at the time I really wasn't excited by his purchase, he wasn't a player who I thought we needed or would live up the expectations of being a United player at that moment in time. On the other hand RVP was always an exceptional player, just his record for injuries prevented him from being among the real Premier League greats that his talents deserved. Yorke stepped up and added something I didn't see we needed in our attack, we'd brought in Teddy after Cantona had left, but he hadn't replaced Eric, Yorke linked up so well with Cole and everyone that we clicked in a manner that Sheringham hadn't been able to do the previous year. With that in mind I'm going to have to say Yorke. I don't think we can take the significance of the impact either made on those seasons, it's just that I never expected that impact from Yorke where as I did from RVP.
 

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Off topic, but feels to tell this story anyway. Some years ago the Scandinavian supporters club had severeal ex-players coming over to Norway for a party. Yorke was one of them. To get served food, we needed to go upstairs where the players had their room. Yorke was lying on the couch with hangover watching an Arsenal game. I was standing in his way, blocking his view while waiting for my food. He looked at me and rolled his eyes over, clearly irritated. I have actually had an impact in Yorke’s life for a few seconds. Haha.
 

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Tough, i'll go with Yorke. But i love them both


Yorke was world class for two seasons before completely losing his hunger and desire.

I remember a couple of my United mates were like 'meh' when we signed him in '98. Weren't a big enough or flashy name ala Kluivert, Salas etc. (some things never change)

He was quality for Villa for a few seasons where he played mostly as a wide forward.

Van Persie was a world class player, i wish we got him when he was younger..I reckon if Fergie stayed for another season he would've had another barn stormer of a season..
 

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RVP was a better player.

In total RVP was much more internationally recognized than Yorke.
 

Brwned

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They both had fantastic seasons but it’s got to be RVP for me. You make some good points about the crucial goals that Yorke scored, but he was in a great team, whereas van Persie carried that 12/13 team.

The way I look at it is:
Would United have won cups without Yorke in 98/99? Probably.

Would we have won cups without Van Persie in 2012/13? Definitely not.

Yorke was “one of the best” players in the treble team, Van Persie was the standout player in his title winning season. By some distance.
Surely you don't mean United would probably have won the treble without Yorke?! He had some very good backups, sure, but there is absolutely no way they would have came in and performed at the same level. The evidence for that is pretty strong: none of them ever performed at that level in any other season! If you believe Yorke's exceptional performances were just the icing on the cake, an inessential but beautiful contribution...did you really watch him that season? His exceptional contributions were an essential part of an exceptional season. I've just had a quick look and there isn't a single highlights video that summarises his season then, for whatever reason. That season was more historic for the team achievements and he wasn't one of the superstars, I suppose. It is much easier to see and remember van Persie's contributions, but that doesn't mean they were more memorable.

Yorke scored against Barcelona, Bayern, Inter, and Juventus. He also scored against Chelsea and Liverpool in the FA Cup. Massive games in our season, he scored against absolutely everyone that season. It sounds harsh, but in hindsight RVP didn't do enough for us in the games against Madrid -- especially at the Bernabeu where he really should have scored, which would have put us in command of the tie.
Definitely the Madrid tie takes him down a level, but that doesn't seem a very fair comparison. In the league, Yorke scored 0 goals against the rest of the top four (Arsenal, Chelsea and Leeds), and 1 against (7th placed) Liverpool. Van Persie scored in both games against Liverpool, both games against Arsenal, 1 game against Chelsea and 1 game against City...that 92nd minute winner. The Madrid game came at a period when he was in a lull, it was just unfortunate timing, not a fair indication of his general contribution against tough opposition that season. Yorke had a 2 month lull in November and December too, it was just better timed.
 

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My tinge of disappointment with RVP was that barren spell where he missed sitters against Madrid that would have put us through.
 

GueRed

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Also let's remember

1998/99 is the best season in United's history EVER

Yorke's contribution in that campaign was huge
 

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Surely you don't mean United would probably have won the treble without Yorke?! He had some very good backups, sure, but there is absolutely no way they would have came in and performed at the same level. The evidence for that is pretty strong: none of them ever performed at that level in any other season! If you believe Yorke's exceptional performances were just the icing on the cake, an inessential but beautiful contribution...did you really watch him that season? His exceptional contributions were an essential part of an exceptional season. I've just had a quick look and there isn't a single highlights video that summarises his season then, for whatever reason. That season was more historic for the team achievements and he wasn't one of the superstars, I suppose. It is much easier to see and remember van Persie's contributions, but that doesn't mean they were more memorable.
Absolutely not, which is why I didn’t say that.

I think taking any of the first XI out of that team would make the treble an impossible dream and even a couple of the reserves.

Schmeichel, Irwin, Neville, Stam, Berg (for his goal line clearances alone), Giggs, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Cole, Yorke, Solskjaer. These players all made irreplaceable contributions. Players like Johnsen, Sheringham, Butt and Blomqvist contributed but to a lesser extent (yeah I know teddy scored in both finals) so I’ve not included them as their contributions would be easily replaceable.

However, taking any one of those players out wouldn’t have resulted in a trophyless season. Including Yorke.

Van Persie was basically playing on his own.
 

Brwned

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Absolutely not, which is why I didn’t say that.

I think taking any of the first XI out of that team would make the treble an impossible dream and even a couple of the reserves.

Schmeichel, Irwin, Neville, Stam, Berg (for his goal line clearances alone), Giggs, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Cole, Yorke, Solskjaer. These players all made irreplaceable contributions. Players like Johnsen, Sheringham, Butt and Blomqvist contributed but to a lesser extent (yeah I know teddy scored in both finals) so I’ve not included them as their contributions would be easily replaceable.

However, taking any one of those players out wouldn’t have resulted in a trophyless season. Including Yorke.

Van Persie was basically playing on his own.
So if we took out Yorke we would have one less trophy, if we took out van Persie we would have one less trophy...therefore van Persie is better? Otherwise the comparison just punishes Yorke for contributing to a multi trophy season, while celebrating van Persie for not being able to do anything useful in the other cups.

Unless you’re suggesting Solskjaer and Yorke made similar contributions that season. He was not part of that extended group of important contributors. He was part of a small group of exceptional contributors.
 

roonster09

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Absolutely not, which is why I didn’t say that.

I think taking any of the first XI out of that team would make the treble an impossible dream and even a couple of the reserves.

Schmeichel, Irwin, Neville, Stam, Berg (for his goal line clearances alone), Giggs, Beckham, Keane, Scholes, Cole, Yorke, Solskjaer. These players all made irreplaceable contributions. Players like Johnsen, Sheringham, Butt and Blomqvist contributed but to a lesser extent (yeah I know teddy scored in both finals) so I’ve not included them as their contributions would be easily replaceable.

However, taking any one of those players out wouldn’t have resulted in a trophyless season. Including Yorke.

Van Persie was basically playing on his own.
He wasn't. Carrick was very good that season, same with our defenders who contributed lot of goals. RVP went around 10 games without a goal and broke that run with a penalty, we still won games.

People forget Rooney's contribution that season. His record was very good, contributing 22 league goals in 2000 mins.

Just match winning contributions from that season
Vs Stoke - 2 goals and 1 assists in 4-2 win
Vs Newcastle - 2 assists in 3-0 win
Vs Arsenal - 1 assist in 2-1 win
Vs Readying - 2 goals and 1 assist in 4-3 win
Vs ManCity - 2 goals in 3-2 win
Vs Southampton - 2 goals in 2-1 win
Vs Fulham - 1 goal in 1-0 win
Vs Norwich - 1 goal and 2 assists in 4-0 win
Vs Reading - 1 goal in 1-0 win

And he started just 22 league games and this was just his match winning contribution. You can take our Norwich and Newcastle game.

RVP was obviously our best player that season and best player in the league, but he wasn't on his own.
 

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Surely you don't mean United would probably have won the treble without Yorke?! He had some very good backups, sure, but there is absolutely no way they would have came in and performed at the same level. The evidence for that is pretty strong: none of them ever performed at that level in any other season! If you believe Yorke's exceptional performances were just the icing on the cake, an inessential but beautiful contribution...did you really watch him that season? His exceptional contributions were an essential part of an exceptional season. I've just had a quick look and there isn't a single highlights video that summarises his season then, for whatever reason. That season was more historic for the team achievements and he wasn't one of the superstars, I suppose. It is much easier to see and remember van Persie's contributions, but that doesn't mean they were more memorable.



Definitely the Madrid tie takes him down a level, but that doesn't seem a very fair comparison. In the league, Yorke scored 0 goals against the rest of the top four (Arsenal, Chelsea and Leeds), and 1 against (7th placed) Liverpool. Van Persie scored in both games against Liverpool, both games against Arsenal, 1 game against Chelsea and 1 game against City...that 92nd minute winner. The Madrid game came at a period when he was in a lull, it was just unfortunate timing, not a fair indication of his general contribution against tough opposition that season. Yorke had a 2 month lull in November and December too, it was just better timed.
I respectfully disagree :) Timing is everything! RVP scored important goals in the league, as did Yorke (last minute winner at Charlton was arguably worth as much as any other goal in the league that season) but Yorke for whatever reason produced it in the Champions League too.
 

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So if we took out Yorke we would have one less trophy, if we took out van Persie we would have one less trophy...therefore van Persie is better? Otherwise the comparison just punishes Yorke for contributing to a multi trophy season, while celebrating van Persie for not being able to do anything useful in the other cups.

Unless you’re suggesting Solskjaer and Yorke made similar contributions that season. He was not part of that extended group of important contributors. He was part of a small group of exceptional contributors.

Not really, no. The drop in quality in the team overall is far greater if you take them out of their respective teams. And another reason is that we won all 3 trophies in ‘99 by the skin of our teeth (Prem by 1 point, FA Cup v Liverpool and Arsenal, UCL v Juve and Bayern) so there was very little margin for removing anything from the team.

Let’s look at it another way and change their roles.
- Could RVP have done Yorke’s job in the treble season? Probably
- Could Yorke have done RVP’s job in the 2012/13 season? Nope.

I know it’s changing the original question a little, but it’s difficult to explain what I mean.
 

Spaghetti

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He wasn't. Carrick was very good that season, same with our defenders who contributed lot of goals. RVP went around 10 games without a goal and broke that run with a penalty, we still won games.

People forget Rooney's contribution that season. His record was very good, contributing 22 league goals in 2000 mins.

Just match winning contributions from that season
Vs Stoke - 2 goals and 1 assists in 4-2 win
Vs Newcastle - 2 assists in 3-0 win
Vs Arsenal - 1 assist in 2-1 win
Vs Readying - 2 goals and 1 assist in 4-3 win
Vs ManCity - 2 goals in 3-2 win
Vs Southampton - 2 goals in 2-1 win
Vs Fulham - 1 goal in 1-0 win
Vs Norwich - 1 goal and 2 assists in 4-0 win
Vs Reading - 1 goal in 1-0 win

And he started just 22 league games and this was just his match winning contribution. You can take our Norwich and Newcastle game.

RVP was obviously our best player that season and best player in the league, but he wasn't on his own.
You are right - Van Persie wasn’t playing on his own, that was an exaggeration. But your last sentence is spot on and, more importantly, something that nobody would argue for Yorke.
 

Brwned

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I respectfully disagree :) Timing is everything! RVP scored important goals in the league, as did Yorke (last minute winner at Charlton was arguably worth as much as any other goal in the league that season) but Yorke for whatever reason produced it in the Champions League too.
Sure, every striker scores important goals in a league campaign. The point is van Persie was far above the norm in that regard. On the flip side, he was only slightly below the norm in the CL. It was only 2 games after all. The problem was his team mates weren’t good enough to compensate for that. So he didn’t get an opportunity to make up for that in future games. On the flip side he had more opportunities to score against our league rivals than Yorke as he started almost every game, but he delivered in more of the big league games than Yorke did that season. And he scored in more big league games than most of our strikers have done in any single season in history. You can’t just put that down to Yorke scoring a goal at Charlton, it’s the volume of goals.

I wouldn’t argue at all against the importance of scoring in important moments, I’m just saying you’ve focused on the one area where van Persie struggled and Yorke excelled. If you bring in that other area where van Persie excelled and Yorke struggled, it provides a fuller description of their contributions. It is important to score against your rivals too and Yorke didn’t do much of that. He more than compensated elsewhere. The opposite is true too. They wouldn’t be compared otherwise.
 

GMoore23

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I see a lot of similarities to Yorke and Van Persie, both being big money forward signings after United had lost the previous league season, then came into the team and we won the following season.

We often hear that signing Van Persie won United the league, yet we just got the same points as the previous season. He was brilliant but it was City dropping completely off the pace that really did it, United just kept up the same level as before. Does Yorke get enough credit for his impact as a signing? Was that legacy diminished by the way he fell out with Ferguson?

Both burned so brightly briefly and then were pretty much done at the top level by their third season. But who do you think was a better player in those one-off seasons?

Premier League

Van Persie scored 8 more goals than Yorke in the league but both were top scorers, albeit Yorke joint top. Yorke did play 6 fewer games and I imagine his number of minutes was lower with Solskjaer and Sheringham itching to get on. Van Persie also scored more goals in a league which was sligtly easier to score in. In 12/13, there was an average of 2.8 goals per match vs 2.5 goals per match in 98/99.

Champions League

When it comes to Europe, Yorke was joint top scorer there with 8 goals. Van Persie scored 3 goals against Cluj and Braga. Yorke scored 1 away at Bayern Munich, 2 away at Barcelona, 2 home to Inter to take initiative, crucial away goal against Juventus.

Cups

Van Persie didn't start any cup games but did have a memorable moment in the FA Cup third round against West Ham. So not the fairest comparison but Yorke scored the equaliser against Liverpool and knocked 2 in to beat a good Chelsea side in the FA Cup.

Other considerations

Both really knitted their team together really well, Van Persie gave United a lot of extra stuff from set-pieces, taking them, attacking them and defending them, while having a great winning personality. Yorke's happiness was infectious and he immediately formed one of the great strike partnerships with Cole. But also the way he dropped into midfield was excellent and I'm always impressed by it when watching clips of older games.

The standard of team-mates was definitely higher for Yorke than it was for Van Persie, but it's common to dismiss that last Fergie team as not being up to standard because of the mess Moyes made of it. They lost the league in the last second of 11/12 otherwise they would have won 6 out of 7 league titles in a row, with European success in there too. United's team of the 90s was iconic and a player like Cleverley would never have featured as much in that team as he did in 12/13, can't argue with that.
Van Persie and no doubt in my mind. He had a sensational 41 Goals/assists in 38 league games. Scored important goals in wins over Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City driving us to a massive lead in the table. We were on for a record points haul until late that season but the players lost focus as we were so far ahead.
Also he took a very nasty knock against QPR in Feb that season and didn't look as sharp for the next month. If it weren't for that knock he'd have scored over 30 league goals.
You say that we kept to the same level as the season before but it was Van Persie who kept us there. We were so weak at the end of the previous season and players like Giggs, Scholes, Vidic and Ferdinand were coming to the end and no longer the forces of old. Fletcher was also a massive loss with his illness.

Van Persie from 2011 - 2013 was the Perfect Striker and we'd absolutely walk the league this season too if we had him in that form.
 

GMoore23

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RVP had an amazing season and I actually couldn't believe how good he was.

But his amazing season was actually an amazing 6 months - I think this was the best first half of a season out of any player since I followed the league since 2005 - better than Ronaldo, Suarez, Rooney, KDB, Kane, Vardy, Torres, Salah, Aguero etc.

It was incredible to watch. RVP just kept on winning us games we had no business winning. We were not a special side at all.

Rooney, Chicharito, Carrick and Rafael kept us going after January as RVP either injured or not fit.
It was the QPR game, he had to be subbed after a bad knock and I'm positive he was playing injured for at least a month afterwards. He did find his form late on again though and was banging them in again.
 

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Sure, every striker scores important goals in a league campaign. The point is van Persie was far above the norm in that regard. On the flip side, he was only slightly below the norm in the CL. It was only 2 games after all. The problem was his team mates weren’t good enough to compensate for that. So he didn’t get an opportunity to make up for that in future games. On the flip side he had more opportunities to score against our league rivals than Yorke as he started almost every game, but he delivered in more of the big league games than Yorke did that season. And he scored in more big league games than most of our strikers have done in any single season in history. You can’t just put that down to Yorke scoring a goal at Charlton, it’s the volume of goals.

I wouldn’t argue at all against the importance of scoring in important moments, I’m just saying you’ve focused on the one area where van Persie struggled and Yorke excelled. If you bring in that other area where van Persie excelled and Yorke struggled, it provides a fuller description of their contributions. It is important to score against your rivals too and Yorke didn’t do much of that. He more than compensated elsewhere. The opposite is true too. They wouldn’t be compared otherwise.

Appreciate the explanation - I think we just disagree on this one. :)
 

Dr Foo

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Just looking again at the fixtures we had in that 99 season, it was just insane. Inter x2, Juventus x2, Barcelona x2, Bayern x3 in Europe and Liverpool, Chelsea x2 and Arsenal x2 in the FA Cup. :D
That was a legendary season. We need to relish and thrive in big games again - hopefully kick-starting with tonight
 

RealBarcelonaUnited

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Nothing to do with Yorke vs RVP

I just watched a comp on YouTube of Yorke and Cole and damn, that wasn’t just telepathy, it was sorcery

I don’t think we’ve had anything of the like since then.
Really wished Martial and Rashford to be the new Yorke and Cole
 

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Yorke came into an excellent squad at the cusp of greatness. We needed someone who could add magic upfront, drop deep when necessary and still score loads of goals. RVP came into a squad that was in decline and who needed to convert as many chances into goals. Both suited the systems they were in perfectly.

RVP wouldn't be as effective in the treble side. He would have clashed with Cole and Ole who pretty much offered the same things he did. Yorke and Rooney duo would certainly be effective at a brothel or two. I am not sure that they would have been as effective on the pitch though.
 

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Really wished Martial and Rashford to be the new Yorke and Cole
Same at first. But lets face it Martial is thick and Rashford right now is still quite a one dimensional player...

Cole and Yorke were intelligent forwards with great movement and slick link-up play. Cole's mentality on matchday was elite too...rubbish trainer but 9/10 when saturday came. A winner.

tbf to Martial and Rashford they aren't natural number 9's. IMO they are most effective as wide forwards.
 
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RVP appeared to be an individual whose goals won us the league.

Yorke was like the missing part of the jigsaw, his combination play with Cole was sublime and they were doing it against Barcelona, Bayern, Juventus.
 

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RVP was the better individual player but the way Yorke linked up with Cole was something else. The two of them were unstoppable, Yorke without Cole would not have been the same player.
Cole without Yorke wouldn't have been the same player.

But Yorke played well whoever he was paired with. He linked with all the strikers and was a real team player. A #10 and #9 all in one during that season.

RvP and Yorke were both hugely influential in those seasons, hard to compare.