We should just buy players that can be sold later. Forget quality or requirements in the squad.
Youri Tielemans | Signed | #18
- Thread starter top1whoisman
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Thought this thread was meant to be about Youri not taking pot shots about not signing someone younger
If you want to sell a player 4 years after they sign for you then its because it didnt work out.
Last summer Tielemans would have cost as much as Cunha and Mbeumo, he was one of the top CMs in the league. Some injuries and more average form mean we got him at almost half their fees 1 year older. If he starts often and plays well he's going to be far more worth the money than a player we sign at 23 who we sell at 27 for a 20% higher fee
Its also important to note that while we did go for an older player in Tielemans we also went for youth with Andrey Santos at 22, joining Mainoo at 21 years old. These players will benefit from an experienced player they can learn from and he will help them in difficult moments in matches. You dont want too much of one thing or the other - if we had signed another young midfielder as well as Santos, where was the experience going to come from in midfield? Likewise it would have been a worse idea than what we went with if we had signed Tielemans and then another 28 year old DM. Then we arent preparing at all for the future. By doing a mix we have both added the experience we lost from Casemiro and still helped prerpare for the future with Andrey Santos.
Santos may not have been the young midfielder most of us were picking before the summer window. But he was bought. Condition fulfilled
Why is resale value important suddenly. He's bought for the here and the now, perhaps we ought be to discussing how good he can be with his passing and control of the game and finally we have a quality volume passer in middle, after god knows how many years.
Between him in midfield, bruno in attack and Martinez in defence, we should finally be able to play through low blocks and not just counter attacking football.
Between him in midfield, bruno in attack and Martinez in defence, we should finally be able to play through low blocks and not just counter attacking football.
Yeah, it's a really boring conversation borne from an ideology of buying "potential" over players who are actually going to be effective, people spending too much time on FIFA and FM thinking there's some hidden quotient for a player's inexorable rise to greatness (and therefore marketability). You buy players who are going to make you better immediately, or where you're in a position to gamble on potential. We've done that gambling well with the defenders (Yoro, Heaven) where we can somewhat bank on senior players to lead the line - injuries to MDL and Martinez excluded. We're not in a position to go into the new season without at least one banker midfielder, and Tielemans has proved for years he can do it, while still having some possibility of excelling in a new context, making impact like Case did but in.a different way. This was a great deal, replacing the seniority and experience of Casemiro with a guy who actually makes things happen on a pitch. Santos has potential. Mainoo has potential. One more body that hits a middle ground isn't the end of the world, given it's going to be mainly the same two guys playing week in week out, and Youri will be one of them.
We're not looking at Youri Tielemans for resale. Anyone bringing that up is obtuse. We're bringing him in knowing we're getting the best/tail-end of him and paying for his value for the next three to four years. Is it a gamble? Sure, just like any other player at this point in his career and all of that has been factored in for the price. He brings a lot to the table and that's what we're buying, warts and all. I really like this guy. Every time I've see him play, I think that. We have him now and I'm happy with that. I hope it works out and believe it will. This is an upgrade, IMO, from a departing Casemiro, who was losing a step and we all knew it.
He had a 35M release clause....
Good positive post
Which we dont know when it activated and even if we did he would have to accept the transfer, which we know he has done now but we dont know if he would a year ago.
I assume anyone who spoke to his agent would have found that out though. It's the positive of holding good relationships with agents. The saudis would have known and likely he wasn't interested in going there yet so got his agent on the case.
For me, it's the decisiveness that's the positive. I guess that helps with the price being set, but at least we didn't faff around. We do well with these transfers, Cunha being the other example.
Yeah, that was sort of my point of how the clause drove the deal. If there wasn't one, we would not be exploring signing Tielemans. Those two we will bet we'll get at a good price because it's Fulham, but yet to be seen if that's the case.
So he has hamstring injury now. Noone concerned about his future availibility?
Does he? Where are we seeing this?
They explained on the podcast that certain clauses arent made public so agents cant always speak freely to every party and say "theres a clause for this player".
Of course they aren't going send out a big email to all the contacts, but 100% they do it with people they have good relationships with. Happens in every industry, literally to me the other day on a call with a prospect who I used to work with. It's why it pays to be in the good books of agents - so good on whoever owns that relationship or developed it.
Wonder what the difference was between us paying Tielemans' confidential release clause and Spurs' attempt to pay Gibbs-White release clause last year, which resulted in Forest threatening legal action? Is it just a case of the relationship between the clubs being better?
Didn't he start 35 league games last year or something? Or did I imagine that?
He picked it up during the world cup ahead of Belgium's final match (I think). Its widely known and obviously he could pass his medical so no major issue (atleast this injury specifically). I wonder whether he would be fit to play game 1 though.
35 in total where 25 were league games. Was injured for 23 games in total.
Seems on average to miss less than 10 games a season. Not bad, but backs up we need another CM signing.
I very much doubt that Tielemans was our priority signing, his injury record is a concern and I believe it was a mistake to offer him a 5 year contract at his age. Having said that we do have financial concerns, we couldn't have a CM purely made up of 21-22 year olds and considering his age, the fee we paid and his talent he must be considered as a shrewd signing. Does Tielemans complete us? No. We certainly need an athletic and fast DM, a CB and probably a LB and a stk backup as well. However he's a decent signing.
It really is shouldnt be about resale value. The club should know full well that we are getting a player during his peak at a very reasonable proce and the "resale value" is the quality and impact we might get from him. He will leave on a free transfer if he finishes his contract in 2031.
He's trained today!
He also offers more technical ability from deep. His passing range and technical ability is a step up from both Casemiro and Mainoo. There are of course risks that you mention. All in all a savvy signing.
It is daft, Manchester United should not be thinking of players from that lens, the same way Real Madrid or Barca do not think about it. If we sign a good young talent, selling them for a big profit in 5 years is rubbish to us if they are hitting their prime and now world class. Selling Ronaldo for 80m was hardly fun for us, we would have much rather kept the player rather than seeing him leave just after becoming the best player around.
Signing a 29 year old like Van Persie was crap for re-sale but he brought us a title, while signing another Welbeck level player for cheaper would likely have seen us not win the title and end up selling them for cheap anyway because they are not good enough and no one buys our lesser players for good prices.
Except they do think about. See for example Jordi Cruyff talking about the decision to sign Raphinha:
That's thinking about resale value. And there isn't a club on the planet that doesn't consider it, because it would be financially insane not to.
Perhaps I should have said not the primary concern, as obviously every potential eventuality is thought of. People on here talk about it as a primary concern with players whereas, Jordi is comparing 2 targets and understanding there is less risk in buying someone who has done well in the PL because a rich PL club will likely buy them if they flop. It is as much about the fact that Raphina has a more proven track record and that PL clubs are rich, as opposed to their decision being primarily about resale value.
Overall, the player's ability, skills and potential to help the team succeed now and in the near future are far above resale value for these clubs. None of these clubs would be saying to sign a lesser player than Tielemans because he is 29 as some are talking about. Barca signed players like Olmo or Lewa instead of choosing players who would have greater resale value because the fact that they are worth close to nothing in 4 years is not that important as they should help in bringing the club success.
In the PL - you have to have an engine to be a top midfielder.
Of course, technique and football intelligence are key also - and something Youri will bring. But you have to have legs. Casemiro had no engine or legs for us despite being one of the best DM's about during his time - but we lost the midfield battle 9/10 because he couldnt track runners and put more pressure on the defense - the PL is relentless.
I think it's a half decent signing for the price - but it's not a signing I can get mega excited about.
Let's be honest with what we say. We lost 9/10 of midfield battle but finished 3rd and top since Carrick arrived.
We had poor midfield because of poor set-up under ETH and Amorim
Coaching induced not player limitations.
Casemiro was part of a United midfield that beat Arsenal, City, Villa, Liverpool in Carrick tenure.
True, and there‘s plenty of midfielders that aren‘t engines in PL. They are usually paired with someone who is.
Tielemans will make a lot of posters eat shit, most likely.
You need agility and stamina of course. That tends to go away when you're older. By engine a lot of people think people who are just fast and can cover a lot of ground quickly like a tonali. That's absolutely not true that it's vital in the prem. It's vital for certain styles of play, yes. If you want to press way up high and have a chaotic style of play where you need your midfield to be closing down a ton of space constantly, sure. If you aren't trying to do that, then it's not an important trait. There is 0 evidence that Carrick is trying to play like that.
Also lost the midfield battle 9/10 times? Under Carrick? Was that when we battered city but had less possession? Or beat Arsenal but had basically 50/50 possession? Don't confuse dumb tactics under Ten Hag and Amorim where they exposed the midfield and asked them to do things that didn't suit them with how we played under Carrick. Different styles need different types of players and different qualities.
Him and Bruno should link up very well together. The question is who starts out of santos and mainoo. I think santos needs to be a regular number 6. The player next to him needs to be creative.
Santos is making himself invaluable. Mount looks really good too. It depends on who we play probably.
I thought it would be Tielemans and Mainoo. Now I‘m not so sure.
We have four good midfielders vying for two spots. We probably should not buy more midfielders.
Tielemans and Mainoo would be really open defensively.
This is massively overstated. A lot of the games are very one paced.
If it's so ferocious that thoroughbred athletes are needed in CM how have we finished top 3 twice with Casemirio/Mainoo and Eriksen.
It's a cliché but the ball moves fast than any players. Ball players will always win out in CM.
Probably is right, unless an incredible opportunity presents itself. And if we're thinking 5 total is a bit light (Bruno, Kobbie, Mason, Andrey and Youri) then bring up a young player to make it 6 for the oddball blowout when it's safe to bring on a young player like Dan Gore or Toby Collyer or even Jim Thwaites if we're thinking of selling or loaning out Gore or Collyer.
This is true. Also I wouldn’t say Spain win games and control them due to that. They pass their way to the goal and tire out the opposition.
Resale value? Look what happened to Pogba, Sancho and Martial; all could have had resale value at the right age, but we got nothing. Hojlund and Antony we got something back but took a big hit. We’re rubbish at selling, so let’s just sign the right players rather than worrying about resale values
It’s quite incredible would you not say that somehow in 9/10 games we lost the midfield battle but still won 20 PL games last season. An absolute miracle that.
Couldn't finish third if the midfield was turd
Finally the Eriksen replacement. We needed some extra creativity and a good passer in the midfield. Also a bargain considering Bruno G went for a lot more and their similar ages.