Youth Academies

[Mr. MUJAC]

Here are some interesting articles about some different Academy set-up's.

This article focuses on Manchester City's Academy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...nchester-City-core-group-English-players.html

Another one is the successful Southampton Academy

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/nov/12/england-grassroots-southampton-youth-academy

On a world scale United have been voted in the Top 5, however my research suggests we are actually better than this but still not top.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Uniteds-academy-fifth-best-world-Rennes.html

While the ECA has produced a fabulous report comparing a range of Academies across Europe which every youth supporter should download and read.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/news/eca-publishes-report-on-youth-academies/

Meanwhile, here is how Feyenoord are doing it given minimal resources.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...as-the-players-it-produces-prove-9650507.html

Finally, the article below suggests that one reason Moyes lost his job was that he was planning to change things at Academy level.

Certainly a lot of people around the club think that changes were necessary.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...s/david-moyes-tried-change-manchester-7025321

All relevant to United and hopefully supporting our history and culture of bringing kids through the system.

 

[MJJ]

Here are some interesting articles about some different Academy set-up's.

This article focuses on Manchester City's Academy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...nchester-City-core-group-English-players.html

Another one is the successful Southampton Academy

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/nov/12/england-grassroots-southampton-youth-academy

On a world scale United have been voted in the Top 5, however my research suggests we are actually better than this but still not top.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...-Uniteds-academy-fifth-best-world-Rennes.html

While the ECA has produced a fabulous report comparing a range of Academies across Europe which every youth supporter should download and read.

http://www.ecaeurope.com/news/eca-publishes-report-on-youth-academies/

Meanwhile, here is how Feyenoord are doing it given minimal resources.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...as-the-players-it-produces-prove-9650507.html

Finally, the article below suggests that one reason Moyes lost his job was that he was planning to change things at Academy level.

Certainly a lot of people around the club think that changes were necessary.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...s/david-moyes-tried-change-manchester-7025321

All relevant to United and hopefully supporting our history and culture of bringing kids through the system.

Have read a couple of those articles,very good read. Thanks for posting them, will probably get to the rest later when I have time.

Unfortunately it is understood that Moyes effectively tampered with his own job security by attempting to produce a more athletic next generation with less emphasis on ball skills.

As for moyes this says it all really.

 

[gooDevil]

How could anyone look at the way the game is going and think a top team needs to be more athletic with less ball skills?

Don't get me wrong, plenty of top players are amazing athletes, but they all have great ball skills too.

Paul Scholes probably wouldn't have made it through a Moyes youth system.

 

[Stobzilla]

You would assume that this would need to be a wholesale change in philosophy similar to the one that Rene Mulensteen initiated that we are just now starting to see consistent benefits from. Were we then expected to wait another 13 odd years while these new sweeping changes got put in place ?

Baffling all round really. We may need to freshen it up but not tear the whole thing down.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

From what I understand, Moyes wasn't planning to restructure the whole system. He thought we didn't have the balance between physicality and skills set right. He also wasn't too happy with some of the scouting and was looking at bringing in a couple of new coaches from abroad. He even sounded out one or two key Academy coaches at places such as Arsenal and Southampton.

The Academy structure hasn't changed that much since 2003 so I think Moyes was right to look at it.

However, with things going so badly at first team level, anything he said was blown out of all proportion and looked at in a negative way.

I think that is the case with the article I posted. I'd love to see one of the Southampton coaches brought up to see what they do.

 

[gooDevil]

Let's mimic Barca and Bayern instead, I say. Whatever they're doing at La Masia to get kids that comfortable on the ball, let's do that.

 

[Midnight1811]

So @Mr. MUJAC if Moyes was given time to implement changes, do you think it would have had a positive impact on things? Lets say he brought in coaches from other teams, thus changing our style of play. What I do remember is Moyes brought in some bloke last season? I can't remember the exact details, just it was something to do with the Academy?

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

So @Mr. MUJAC if Moyes was given time to implement changes, do you think it would have had a positive impact on things? Lets say he brought in coaches from other teams, thus changing our style of play. What I do remember is Moyes brought in some bloke last season? I can't remember the exact details, just it was something to do with the Academy?

No idea…and I don't think he was trying to change or style of play. Simply to provide some balance and look at best practices from other clubs.

I have no problem with that.

There was some newspaper talk of DM talking to someone at the FA about a role. But I've no idea who he actually brought in…first I've heard of that.

 

[Brightonian]

Let's mimic Barca and Bayern instead, I say. Whatever they're doing at La Masia to get kids that comfortable on the ball, let's do that.

That sort of is what we've been doing for a while now. Well, not really mimicking them - the directest influence is probably more some of the Dutch academies like Ajax. But certainly when Meulensteen was brought in (his introduction being symptomatic of the overhaul, not the sole cause of it) we made changes to our approach, and it's paying off in the form of youth sides where the average technical quality is very high.

 

[LuessiT]

Let's mimic Barca and Bayern instead, I say. Whatever they're doing at La Masia to get kids that comfortable on the ball, let's do that.

Bayern are not working that well in the youth sector considering their investments. They keep poaching talents and coaches from smaller clubs, but their youth developement isn't that great. They still 'produce' a lot of talent, but more so due to the general level of coaching in germany and the amount of money they are offering to talents (which is still low compared to england standarts).

Lately Bayern figuered that they are only looking for the best of the best talents, which means that they will focus less on developing themselves and even more on poaching the best talents from other clubs.

If there are some academies to be mentioned from Germany, you should mention Stuttgart's and Schalke's academies in my opinion. Both are superior to Bayern's.

 

[gooDevil]

That sort of is what we've been doing for a while now. Well, not really mimicking them - the directest influence is probably more some of the Dutch academies like Ajax. But certainly when Meulensteen was brought in (his introduction being symptomatic of the overhaul, not the sole cause of it) we made changes to our approach, and it's paying off in the form of youth sides where the average technical quality is very high.

From what I've read, our current manager has influence Ajax, Barca and Bayern's youth system, so it would seem he's ideally placed to assist our current set-up.

It seems a main difference is that British kids aren't allowed to train nearly as long as those in Spain or Germany, don't remember if they've changed that recently or not.

 

[Redo91]

From what I understand, Moyes wasn't planning to restructure the whole system. He thought we didn't have the balance between physicality and skills set right. He also wasn't too happy with some of the scouting and was looking at bringing in a couple of new coaches from abroad. He even sounded out one or two key Academy coaches at places such as Arsenal and Southampton.

The Academy structure hasn't changed that much since 2003 so I think Moyes was right to look at it.

However, with things going so badly at first team level, anything he said was blown out of all proportion and looked at in a negative way.

I think that is the case with the article I posted. I'd love to see one of the Southampton coaches brought up to see what they do.

Didn't a few coaches from their youth set-up join Fulham recently?

 

[Brightonian]

It seems a main difference is that British kids aren't allowed to train nearly as long as those in Spain or Germany, don't remember if they've changed that recently or not.

In general they're actually doing good work changing all those regulations and bad traditions which were hamstringing youth coaching in England until a year or two ago. Obviously we still have years to wait before those changes could actually pay off in terms of the England team set-up. And of course they'll never pay off at all until we sort out the problem of getting more of these kids playing regular high-level first team football once they hit 18 or 19. But despite what you'd think if you read any kind of message board after any senior England team loss, there actually have been radical changes across youth coaching in England already to try and address those old problems.

 

[Balu]

Bayern are not working that well in the youth sector considering their investments. They keep poaching talents and coaches from smaller clubs, but their youth developement isn't that great. They still 'produce' a lot of talent, but more so due to the general level of coaching in germany and the amount of money they are offering to talents (which is still low compared to england standarts).

Lately Bayern figuered that they are only looking for the best of the best talents, which means that they will focus less on developing themselves and even more on poaching the best talents from other clubs.

If there are some academies to be mentioned from Germany, you should mention Stuttgart's and Schalke's academies in my opinion. Both are superior to Bayern's.

While I agree that Schalke's youth academy is exceptional and the best in Germany at the moment, I think you're harsh on our youth academy. We have a very good balance between quality young talents who are at the club since they were around 13 years old or younger and great youth talents that joined the club when they were about 16/17. I don't really see how we benefit more from the overall higher standard of coaching in the country than Schalke, that part makes no sense to me. Most of the development happens at the clubs and we're clearly doing a brilliant job for years now, in my opinion easily a better one than Stuttgart. And it's not like Schalke doesn't add older talents as well, like Goretzka or Kolasinac who joined Schalke when they were 18 and Meyer for example played for years in Duisburg and only joined Schalke when he was 14.

 

[LuessiT]

While I agree that Schalke's youth academy is exceptional and the best in Germany at the moment, I think you're harsh on our youth academy. We have a very good balance between quality young talents who are at the club since they were around 13 years old or younger and great youth talents that joined the club when they were about 16/17. I don't really see how we benefit more from the overall higher standard of coaching in the country than Schalke, that part makes no sense to me. Most of the development happens at the clubs and we're clearly doing a brilliant job for years now, in my opinion easily a better one than Stuttgart. And it's not like Schalke doesn't add older talents as well, like Goretzka or Kolasinac who joined Schalke when they were 18 and Meyer for example played for years in Duisburg and only joined Schalke when he was 14.

I wouldn't say 'our'. While I'm very familiar with the youth setup in germany in general and especially with the one at Bayern, I'm certainly not a Bayern fan. Pretty much the opposite.


When Bayern signed Jürgen Jung from my local club 1860 Munich, I truely knew that they'd be clueless. To be fair, Bayern's youth developement needed an overhaul, but Jung was heavily critisized at my club for paying average young players way too much money to keep hold of the great ones, who had the same agent. When Bayern signed him, the club actually was pretty happy.


The last players that Bayern truely produced are Müller and Badstuber (who initially was poached from Stuttgart by the way). To be fair they just had a great U19, without exceptional talents though - the only talents Bayern is looking for. But if you look at their current U19 or the U17, both are mediocre even though they have a much higher budget. They changed their U23 twice within two years now. There is no consistency. No plan.

At every youth training of 1860 Munich there is a Bayern-Scout, simply talking to players and parents at the end of training sessions, trying to convince players to join Bayern.


As I've mentioned before: Bayern pretty much have sacked their youth developement. They only need the special talents out of each generation. Therefor, it's easier and probably also cheaper to just buy the best of the best at older stages.
Therefor, taking Bayern as a role model in youth football isn't going to work anymore. The Bayern youth setup from 5 years ago - maybe. But the current is mediocre at best.


What Stuttgart suffers, is that they sell a lot of young players way before they even turn pro. Players like Gnarby (and many more) at early stages of their career. Stuttgart are actually making quite some money with those players.



Considering the price of english talent, a youth approach like Bayern would cost us a fortune. Besides of that with the home-grown-rule and the cup competitions, we rely heavily on youth developement. Therefor, sacking youth will not work for us.
I'd say our current youth setup works pretty well. There are many promising talents coming through our ranks at the moment.

I'd like us to sign even more exceptional talents from other clubs within Europe in the future though. Picking up players like Januzaj or Pogba is pretty efficient money-whise.

 

[Balu]

At every youth training of 1860 Munich there is a Bayern-Scout, simply talking to players and parents at the end of training sessions, trying to convince players to join Bayern.

That's a massive exaggeration, but I know that way too often great talents at a young age are approached from different clubs and I don't like that behaviour, however it's common all over Europe. What's really strange (or maybe not, since you refer to 1860 as your local club) about your post is that you completely ignore how often Stuttgart is doing the exact same with their local rivals, the Stuttgarter Kickers. Most of the players of Stuttgart's highly praised former youth generations came to the club at a similar age as for example Kroos to Bayern, like Kuranyi, Gomez, Hildebrand and for example Gnabry or Tasci were poached from the Kickers at a young age. I still don't see any difference. You make it sound like a club like Stuttgart brings most talents through their youthteams from a very early age on, which is simply not true. What you criticise about Bayern is just the standard in pretty much all successful youth academies in the world at the moment, they all have a balance between talents that always were at the club, some that joined early (let's say around 12) and some that joined as teenagers (let's say around 16). What makes academies successful is to allow players to develop at all stages of their youth career and that's clearly happening at Bayern and the fact that Gaudino and Hojbjerg looked great in pre-season again is kinda proof that right now it still works really well, that we continue to have players making the transition to a professional career who went through all our youth teams and talents who joined later.

 

[hebegebe]

From what I've read, our current manager has influence Ajax, Barca and Bayern's youth system, so it would seem he's ideally placed to assist our current set-up.

It seems a main difference is that British kids aren't allowed to train nearly as long as those in Spain or Germany, don't remember if they've changed that recently or not.

This has changed with the introduction of the EPPP, it has been developed in line with the 10,000hr rule and sets out a defined path for development of youth players from the foundation stage upwards, giving them a guaranteed number of hours training and match time per week based on the category of the academy. The Elite players from U12's upwards are also taken out of school for an agreed time, either missing lessons that aren't important or schooled privately with tutors, City send there lads to private school, paid up until they are 16, regardless of them being released earlier.

if you google EPPP, you can download the complete document, that lays out the whole development process in great detail.