Youth development is NOT relevant for us!

[nick2004]

In this forum, we read a lot about "youth development". I believe that people should realize that this is not relevant any more for our club. In this era, youth development is NOT important for Man Utd or any other team of this caliber (ie RICH club). Perhaps it was important 30 years ago, but it isn't now.

Today, youth development might be important for second tier teams, or teams in lesser leagues, like Ajax. The reason? They don't get enough money from TV rights and tickets and shirt sales and the like, so they want to make some extra money selling players.

But for Man Utd it does not make any sense to develop players for sale. We can make much more money buying a Neymar and selling shirts, than developing a Ronaldo and selling him to Madrid. We are a buying club, not a selling club. Ajax is a selling club, not a buying club.

We have money, we need world class players. What is the possibility of developing a world class player through our academies in the next 5 years? Almost zero! There are thousands and thousands academies all over the world today. Many of them have good systems.

Let's say that every year one or two or three *new* world class players appear. What is the possibility that one of them will appear in our academies and not in a random academy? Almost zero. What is the possibility that we will replicate the class of 92? Again: zero!

On the other hand, our academy will definitely produce average squad players, like Evans. Let's say we don't even have those. Is this really a loss? How much does it cost to buy such a player? 10 million? 20 million? This is peanuts for Man Utd! Perhaps it is not peanuts for Ajax. Different tiers of clubs have totally different needs.



TL;DR:

Forget youth development, it is not relevant for us. What we really need is world class players. We cannot realistically expect that our academies will produce those. It is more important to have a world class manager (Mourinho) who can buy world class players.

 

[ivaldo]

Barcelona says hi.

 

[Wumminator]

What was a world class manager doing at 16th in the table with last seasons league winners?

 

[K2K]

ok.

 

[Wumminator]

I can't imagine a world where I'm happy with not playing youth products.

 

[Revan]

You will get murdered for this thread, and many people might suggest you to become a City/PSG/Chelsea fan, but I partially agree with you.

Point is, since the class of 92 we haven't produced any world class players who then played for us. The closest we've got were Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown, Evans and Welbeck. From those five, only Fletcher was really a great player at his best, but needed to spend a few years being a bad player to develop at that stage. And well, you can buy players as good/better for very modest prices.

To make things even worse we actually poached some young players and then sold them/left them leave and they were proven to be fantastic players. Both Pogba and Pique are world class but they didn't played for us that much. Rossi is possibly the best one after them, and again the same results.

I am not saying that it is something irrelevant. Just that it shouldn't be a top priority (or near it). In order to get an O'Shea (which I think is nothing special and even in the current inflated market can be signed for 15m or so) you need to spend countless games giving chances to the likes of Gibson or Cleverley, and so lose many points.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Well City have just spent £200 million on their academy set up and by all accounts are wrecking ours whilst doing it, they have money to burn like we do, so why are they doing it?

 

[lilcurt]

I can see a lot of indepth thought went into this.

OMG, we could get a world class manager and then sign Messi, Ronaldo and Neymar!

We'd win the win the world cup!

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Interesting and I'm not disagreeing completely but you need youth products in this era to meet squad requirements and CL player regulations.

The OP ignores these 2 values most which underwrites a lot of it:

1) Localised youth players should be hungrier and try harder for any chance. Key word: any. Including playing in differing positions in accordance with development under a consistent playing strategy for said club.

2) Youth players don't have to be world class to prosper. The best "team" wins more often than not in football, not the best player.

Selling a youth player thereafter is a (financially) lucrative byproduct of good development. At a selling club, it is a mission statement of sustainability. At an elite club (and where Utd aim to be permanently) it is an option.

 

[andersj]

One of the more naive posts in quite some time. The two most successfull clubs in Europe the past ten years, Barcelona and Bayern, have benefited greatly from their acadamies.

Having a core of acadamy-players not only enables you to spend more on fewer players, they also provide a solid foundation and consist the backbone of a club. Some of the players from the acadamy under the Fergusons era was not the most talented players in the world, but they ment alot at Carrington.

 

[JPRouve]

Youth development is relevant for everyone, it allows you to spend a ton of money on world class players, the money that you are not wasting on squad players

 

[nick2004]

Barcelona says hi.

Yeah, they developed Neymar and Suarez, how can we forget?

 

[Trizy]

We'd be fine if they changed the youth laws with the hours you're allowed train. See Germany vs England.

 

[Nighteyes]

I wouldn't say not relevant but rather not as important is winning things. And arguably, winnings trophies will make blooding of youth players a lot easier. Mourinho needs to be brought in ASAP!

 

[nick2004]

Youth development is relevant for everyone, it allows you to spend a ton of money on world class players, the money that you are not wasting on squad players

Right. Can you tell me which squad players we have now that were developed by the master SAF himself, in the last 10 years?

Nobody???

That's right! SAF himself could not even produce a SINGLE squad player in the last 10 years! Not one!!!

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah, they developed Neymar and Suarez, how can we forget?

Are you wumming? Iniesta, Sergi Roberto, Jordi Alba, Piqué, Messi, Bartra,, Busquets have all been member of their academy.

 

[FC Ronaldo]

Tbf to the OP, it's not such an obscure view to be ridiculed here. I'm pleased that most are against it (as am I) so we share a similar vision but it's not worthy of dismissing totally out of hand as there is real-life, current experience of success being generated from it.

Chelsea and City have had great domestic success without such reliance (short term) on youth development. Liverpool and Spurs have done well buying younger players too. And Arsenal are a combination of the 2.

That said, all have widely been reported to continue developing their own youth academies and systems with a view to a long term strategy so the short term successes can be attributed to having disposable wealth more readily available and being well spent also. This is the clearest indicator that while they're happy to reap the rewards now, in the future they know it's not a sustainable strategy (Entirely).

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Yeah, they developed Neymar and Suarez, how can we forget?

Players like Messi, Pedro, Xavi, Iniesta, etc really flatten your argument on this very quickly.

Barca have been stunning at producing players, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Scarecrow]

Yeah, they developed Neymar and Suarez, how can we forget?

That's your answer? Where have you been the last decade?

 

[JPRouve]

Right. Can you tell me which squad players we have now that were developed by the master SAF himself, in the last 10 years?

Nobody???

That's right! SAF himself could not even produce a SINGLE squad player in the last 10 years! Not one!!!

You really are wumming then, you don't remember the squad players under SAF and you don't see who is completing our current team?

 

[nick2004]

One of the more naive posts in quite some time. The two most successfull clubs in Europe the past ten years, Barcelona and Bayern, have benefited greatly from their acadamies.

You have probably never tried to find out how many of their first 11 players were developed by Barca and Bayern, and how many were bought... Please do it. You will be surprised! And I mean their current squad, not 10 years ago.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Yeah, they developed Neymar and Suarez, how can we forget?

Messi, Busquets, iniesta, xavi, puyol, pedro, alba, barta. Honestly there are so so many amazing players I haven't even mentioned.

 

[nick2004]

You really are wumming then, you don't remember the squad players under SAF and you don't see who is completing our current team?

How many of our current first-11 players are a product of our academies?

 

[ivaldo]

You will get murdered for this thread, and many people might suggest you to become a City/PSG/Chelsea fan, but I partially agree with you.

Point is, since the class of 92 we haven't produced any world class players who then played for us. The closest we've got were Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown, Evans and Welbeck. From those five, only Fletcher was really a great player at his best, but needed to spend a few years being a bad player to develop at that stage. And well, you can buy players as good/better for very modest prices.

To make things even worse we actually poached some young players and then sold them/left them leave and they were proven to be fantastic players. Both Pogba and Pique are world class but they didn't played for us that much. Rossi is possibly the best one after them, and again the same results.

I am not saying that it is something irrelevant. Just that it shouldn't be a top priority (or near it). In order to get an O'Shea (which I think is nothing special and even in the current inflated market can be signed for 15m or so) you need to spend countless games giving chances to the likes of Gibson or Cleverley, and so lose many points.

If at first you don't succeed give up. instead of looking to improve a flagging academy that has served us so well in the past you want to ditch it? You don't have to look far to find clubs that benefit massively from recent seasons. Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Pique, Puyol, Valdes, Pedro, Alba, Roberto all came form the same youth set up. Is that not worth it?

 

[JPRouve]

You have probably never tried to find out how many of their first 11 players were developed by Barca and Bayern, and how many were bought... Please do it. You will be surprised! And I mean their current squad, not 10 years ago.

About the bolded part, the thing is you don't need to feel your first eleven with academy players or even young players that you developed but it's financially sound to develop your own squad players because they will be less expensive in transfer fee and wages.

 

[Varun]

An ideal mix is to have youth products as your squad players so that you don't need to spend unnecessarily on them.

 

[Revan]

If at first you don't succeed give up. instead of looking to improve a flagging academy that has served us so well in the past you want to ditch it? You don't have to look far to find clubs that benefit massively from recent seasons. Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Pique, Puyol, Valdes, Pedro, Alba, Roberto all came form the same youth set up. Is that not worth it?

Absolutely. What I was saying more is that it shouldn't be a priority (like people who said in other threads that we should not hire Mourinho cause he doesn't play young players), not close it. I mean, since the class of '92, it isn't that we produced a single genius. It has been mostly play a lot of young players, from which one or two become average/okay while a few others are shit. Rinse and repeat.

Barca have been doing well, but you see that even for clubs with top academies located in states that have the top talents, it is really difficult to produce talents consistently. Their last talent is probably Alcantara who anyway left.

Anyway, the academy pays for itself by the number of players we sell to other clubs. And I like to see young players giving a chance, but not at the hindrance of the team. Which we have done at times.

 

[JPRouve]

Also about the shirt myth, buying a player doesn't give you access to a lot more buyers, every year the clubs report the same amount of sales, it's only the name of the players that change.

 

[nick2004]

You will get murdered for this thread, and many people might suggest you to become a City/PSG/Chelsea fan, but I partially agree with you.

Point is, since the class of 92 we haven't produced any world class players who then played for us. The closest we've got were Fletcher, O'Shea, Brown, Evans and Welbeck. From those five, only Fletcher was really a great player at his best, but needed to spend a few years being a bad player to develop at that stage. And well, you can buy players as good/better for very modest prices.

To make things even worse we actually poached some young players and then sold them/left them leave and they were proven to be fantastic players. Both Pogba and Pique are world class but they didn't played for us that much. Rossi is possibly the best one after them, and again the same results.

I am not saying that it is something irrelevant. Just that it shouldn't be a top priority (or near it). In order to get an O'Shea (which I think is nothing special and even in the current inflated market can be signed for 15m or so) you need to spend countless games giving chances to the likes of Gibson or Cleverley, and so lose many points.

You are right.

It is a common logical fallacy for people to expect a rare exception to repeat itself regularly, just because they witnessed it happening once.

We did produce six good players (the "class of 92"). This happened once. The possibility of it happening again in the next 10 years is almost zero.

We did have a great manager for 27 years. In the next 50 years, the possibility of having a manager who stays for more than 10 years is almost zero.

We are a rich club. We cannot base our expectations to almost zero probabilities. And I am sure that the owners do not think like that. But it is disheartening to see that so many fans expect the improbable to happen regularly, just because we are Man Utd.

 

[JPRouve]

Absolutely. What I was saying more is that it shouldn't be a priority (like people who said in other threads that we should not hire Mourinho cause he doesn't play young players), not close it. I mean, since the class of '92, it isn't that we produced a single genius. It has been mostly play a lot of young players, from which one or two become average/okay while a few others are shit. Rinse and repeat.

Barca have been doing well, but you see that even for clubs with top academies located in states that have the top talents, it is really difficult to produce talents consistently. Their last talent is probably Alcantara who anyway left.

Anyway, the academy pays for itself by the number of players we sell to other clubs. And I like to see young players giving a chance, but not at the hindrance of the team. Which we have done at times.

You don't produce top talents you nurture them, a good academy only produce good average or slighly above average footballer and that's what you need on a regular basis, you need good squad players. The top talents are a product of luck and great poaching.

 

[ivaldo]

Yeah, they developed Neymar and Suarez, how can we forget?

Are you just pretending Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Pique, Puyol, Valdes, Pedro, Alba, Roberto et all sign exist? You know, it is possible to do both, right?

 

[Spielmacher]

Most of Barcelona's success is due to brilliant scouting, especially in the youth department, it's not that La Masia is a magical place like Hogwarts.

I wonder how many scouts are deployed by Manchester United.

 

[ivaldo]

Absolutely. What I was saying more is that it shouldn't be a priority (like people who said in other threads that we should not hire Mourinho cause he doesn't play young players), not close it. I mean, since the class of '92, it isn't that we produced a single genius. It has been mostly play a lot of young players, from which one or two become average/okay while a few others are shit. Rinse and repeat.

Barca have been doing well, but you see that even for clubs with top academies located in states that have the top talents, it is really difficult to produce talents consistently. Their last talent is probably Alcantara who anyway left.

Anyway, the academy pays for itself by the number of players we sell to other clubs. And I like to see young players giving a chance, but not at the hindrance of the team. Which we have done at times.

Exactly; your academy is there to compliment your squad, ours is currently failing but that doesn't mean we should give up on it as the OP suggests, we should be investing in it.

 

[nick2004]

Are you just pretending Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Pique, Puyol, Valdes, Pedro, Alba, Roberto et all sign exist? You know, it is possible to do both, right?

This is 2016.

 

[ivaldo]

This is 2016.

I'll give you that, we haven't seen ANY youth products develop this calendar year. Terrific analysis.

 

[nick2004]

Exactly; your academy is there to compliment your squad, ours is currently failing but that doesn't mean we should give up on it as the OP suggests, we should be investing in it.

I did not suggest to close our academy.

I said that our academy is irrelevant for our current problems!

What we need now is a world class manager and world class players. Our academy will provide neither.

And it is silly to judge our future manager based on "youth development". Whatever our future manager does, the possibility of him producing great players from our academy is almost zero.


But of course we will keep our academy! And if it happens to produce some good players, that's great! However, we should know that the possibility of this happening is next to zero.

 

[RoadTrip]

Don't agree with this. The only teams in history to dominate for a prolonged period are teams whose core consists of a nucleus of youth players.

 

[nick2004]

I'll give you that, we haven't seen ANY youth products develop this calendar year. Terrific analysis.

How many of the following players are important for Barca NOW?

Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Pique, Puyol, Valdes, Pedro, Alba, Roberto

Barca still fields 11 players, right? What players are important for Barca in 2016? Did they buy those? Yes, they did! They did buy almost all their current first-11! Yes, Barca has BOUGHT all their current squad. Is this so hard to believe?

 

[Dans]

Barcelona says hi.

But we are only mes que un club in that we are seemingly first and foremost a business now whereas Barcelona represents a region, a culture and feels/has an obligation to foster football in that region.

United should feel an obligation to do likewise in my opinion, but I am sure they don't, sharing the OPs attitude.

 

[nick2004]

Don't agree with this. The only teams in history to dominate for a prolonged period are teams whose core consists of a nucleus of youth players.

Yeah, right. Historically. And historically you could field only one foreigner. Is this relevant today?