I'm convinced threads like this come from the fact that many modern fans never actually play sport themselves.
Youth development is NOT relevant for us!
- Thread starter nick2004
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I agree with you. No matter what anyone says we have not had a good return on academy products since the Class of 92. Look at the players Barca and Bayern have brought through in comparison. Our academy needs help, especially with City opening their state of the art complex and poaching top young prospects. We should definitely go the route of investing more into it in my opinion. Double the spending on our academy and it will eventually pay for itself with even 1 extra good player coming through. We can afford to do it, the question is whether the Glazers would want to.
I feel sorry for the non-sport-participators whom have been lumped in with a guy like this
This pretty much hits the nail on the head in terms of our youth development these days. The issue is not that we have one, the issue is that we have a poor one.
The ethos of this club has been to develop and provide opportunities and a platform to youth. The solution isn't to ditch the ethos, but to actually improve it so we can live up to it.
The last 2 and a half years have been heart-wrenching. Not just because we've done shit, but I feel like the history and soul of this club, and some of the things that attracted me to it, are being destroyed.
What a pathetic argument. You have argued that we don't need youth development because of money, which is stupid plain and simple. Our club has been built on the foundations of youth development. Having the right balance between youth and transfers has been one of the key success stories of SAF. Barca have also mastered along with Bayern. Youth development should be key for all clubs, finding and nurturing talent and then progressing them to the first team. We should never neglect this area.
I don't understand the thinking behind not bothering with youth development. The reason why we're paying so much for players, comes down to us not having a capable youth team player to play that position.
We're obviously planning on playing and developing youth players, nothing will ever change that at United. It is part of our history, that we've been lucky enough to have players to contribute to our success.
We're obviously planning on playing and developing youth players, nothing will ever change that at United. It is part of our history, that we've been lucky enough to have players to contribute to our success.
ah you'e trolling now, fergie produced a lot of squad players in the last ten years, even gave januzaj his first spot on the bench
Poor record compared to many other big teams? You mean teams like Barcelona enjoying their greatest ever spell with youth products? Do you realise how daft that sounds? Maybe Barcelona should have shut down their youth academy in 2002 because they didn't have the track record between 92 and 02 as United. Would have been really smart. As always, these things go in cycles. All other academies should have shut down in the 90s and we should shut outs now, apparently.
Btw, I've already told you what our academy products have contributed over the last decade - small stuff, like playing a part in CL and Pl wins, that's all. And the decade before , they stormed the footballing world. Too little for people with high standards like you I guess.
Apparently in every decade our academy must produce the talent Barcelona have produced in their best period ever.
iirc, there is 11 years between Lahm and Babbel.
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We support a club that thinks youth development is important, rather than trying to change the club why not support a different club?
Even if you're in manchester, go support city, who have put 100s of millions into the academy but are still buying players rather than producing them for now, maybe you'll get a few more years out of that
Don't ask the club we love to change a 60+ year old tradition
Even if you're in manchester, go support city, who have put 100s of millions into the academy but are still buying players rather than producing them for now, maybe you'll get a few more years out of that
Don't ask the club we love to change a 60+ year old tradition
It should be important for any club really because it builds a sense of community
Also what would it do for national teams if big clubs like United didn't put any focus on youth development?
By all means if you are chasing instant success you spend money and I'm not adverse to the likes of mourinho but it shouldn't be at the cost of developing ou own players. We wouldn't have won as much were it not for the likes of John oshea etc.
Also what happens when the money goes away?
It's a very short sighted argument
The OP is correct. The rigidly dogmatic pursuit of youth is a recipe for mediocrity, especially in the modern (within the past 5 years) context of where the game is heading - wealthy owners, globalized transfer options, hyper vigilance of fans through social media, and short time horizons for manager and club success. If you look at the past 5 years, its clear as day that big clubs are moving away from long, drawn out youth schemes and towards buying their players from the outside with a bit of youth support, as opposed to the other way around. The longer we clutch at antiquated concepts, the faster we will fall behind the rest of the big clubs.
Opened the thread on p5, to see your comment @Rory 7. Agree with you and then fecked off resolving never to bump again.
Sorry I didn't quite understand, J.
People criticize our academy but Bayern waited 11 years between Babbel and Lahm. IIRC there is no own between them.
Of course I do
It's been that way at United for ages. I'm not sure which club you're speaking about but the latter isn't us. We always been about purchased players supplemented by youth products.
And you seem to have misunderstood the OP given your post suggests you disagree with him. He wants the youth academy to be forgotten and considered irrelevant. You want it to supplement a first team like all of us do.
I was going to ask him what Barcelona and Bayern had prior to their recent flourishes. That sort of confirms that all clubs have to be patient, and top class quality comes in phases.
One of the strongest arguments in favour of using youth players within the squad hasn't even been mentioned in my opinion. Clubs such as Ajax and Barcelona have a very defined playing style, one that they consider is part of their identity as a club. All of their youth teams play in exactly the same style. That means that all players that go through their youth system are familiar with their playing philosophy and are cogs that can be fitted directly into their team. One of the reasons that for example Di Maria failed with us was because he wasn't able to adapt to our playing style. You can put in all the money you want into players, but then you first have to re-educate them into your playing style. With LvG's team we currently see how much time that takes. Therefore a good youth system, that not only helps young players to develop but also educates them to play in the style of the first team is instrumental to success.
That's very true and important.
That's the point. Clubs are't doing youth much any more for the reasons I outlined. We are in a very short time horizon world where clubs don't have endless years to slowly draw out the development of youth players in the off chance they might become consistent starting XI players. Football has moved on and 5 years from now we aren't likely to see any big clubs with more than 2 or so youth players who prominently feature for the starting xi.
This is literally the worst thread I have ever read.
@OP - Tottenham says hi
We haven't produced a top quality players throughout the youth team since the class of 92.
The idea we bring through youth talent is absolute bullocks.
Just buy the best prospects. That's the way to compete.
The idea we bring through youth talent is absolute bullocks.
Just buy the best prospects. That's the way to compete.
I guess we will wait and see. But I completely disagree that big clubs won't focus on youth.
And if we had two youth products in our starting XI, and maybe another 3-4 as squad players, I would be happy. I would consider that a success.
Excellent post.
Completely agree.
It's also one of the key arguments to have a director of football. Alignment in direction over the long term is key, and in an age where managers revolve in and out someone needs to provide that consistent approach.
For the youth it is first important to develop individually to a very high level. To get a feel for all systems, to be able to play different positions in different systems - and to get a grip of all systems. It does not help you if you play one system with your youth teams and e.g. you do not need that talented fourth or fifth striker but use the much less talented and performing tenth fullback. Your youth teams must play in the style that fits best to their available players. And if you have two really great strikers - they have to continously play together.
Playing style or playing philosophy has nothing to do with the system. If you want to play like Barcelona, with loads of quick passes over short distance, then this should be the main idea in the youth teams as well. You can let them execute this style in any system you so desire: 4-3-3, 3-5-2, 4-5-1 etc.; this should largely depend on the player material available. Remember that youth players will play in this system from very early age and it's all they will be playing in. At that point they don't yet have a specific style that fits them best; they are at the very start of development.
I know. But a lot mix that especially as Ajax and Barca play the same system - not just the stayle with all teams.
Indeed. People go to weird extremes here though.
2 or more is pretty good. And more than enough reason to consider it relevant.
This thread is a good example of the state of this place. Spend time decrying "loss of identity" when players are bought/sold or we play without wingers; now talk about dumping one of the core United traditions.
It was a lot easier to say:
I desperately want Mourinho at the club and I dont want his complete lack of importance on youth development as a road block to this.
I desperately want Mourinho at the club and I dont want his complete lack of importance on youth development as a road block to this.
The youth academy is still relevant for us however I believe that its in need of some serious reform. The last time we had developed a homegrown world class player (ie from age 13 till adulthood) was during the class of 92. We faired better in 'polishing' foreign youth gems, however, for one reason or another we ended up losing them to other clubs. That's certainly not good enough. So in some ways I agree with OP. Unless we take the youth academy seriously by giving a run to the truly great quality players there and hire people who actually know what they are doing rather than because of their 'legacy' at the club than we might as well close the damn place.
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Trying to bring in the best young players from around the UK and the rest of the world - important to our success (provided it is not at the exclusion of recruiting older players). The academy - increasingly irrelevant and, along with many other things at United, over-romanticised.
I agree and disagree. Its naive to think that the youth academy is irrelevant especially since the two best clubs in the world has a core of homegrown talent (Barcelona and Bayern). However like any other aspect in our football we had allowed over-romanticising to win over our common sense. The youth academy should have a core role in our strategy and not be considered as a retirement homes for washed up players to learn their coaching trade
The Title suggested that you think the club should not focus much on Youth Development. But your premise for the same is pretty bonkers to be honest (No Offence!). You say what is the point developing world class talent only to sell them eventually... and quoted the example of Ronaldo (Who is not even a youth product btw). There are several reasons why a club like United should focus extensively on Youth Development. The reasons are probably true not just for United, but for all the big clubs in the world.
1) Rules and Regulations: This is the simplest one. Registration for PL and UCL REQUIRE you to have domestic players and players who are trained at the club or in england before the age of 18. How could you do that if the academy decides to focus on substandard players. Why else do you think Man City paid over the top money for Sterling in the summer ?
2) It's A Sustainable Environment: Every top club in the world has an excellent mix of Homegrown/Academy talent and foreign imports. There is a reason this formula works. Youth players are the knit and grit of the team, showing unbelievable passion for the club they love and the expensive recruits have incredible quality and talent at their disposal. These traits are constantly exchanged at the youth level. (Just YouTube videos of van Nistelrooy teaching a young Welbeck how to dribble). You need a mix of everything to have a successful team and more importantly, a successful squad. You can't just buy that. You need to build some of that in-house.
3) It's Cheaper Long Term: Imagine spending 120 Million pounds a year on a player (like Bale, Ronaldo, Neymar) for buying a world class talent and on top of that, the insane salaries, these guys are on. And what is the ROI ? 3-6 years of top quality football or maybe even less (if you go by recent purchases). But make a one time investment of 300-400 million (these figures are my own estimates and probably don't reflect actual costs) on improving the infrastructure, the networking, facilities and then maybe 2-10 million a year to develop our own world class players (A homegrown player need not necessarily be British, just look at La Masia and the international talent they recruit when the players are just 12-15. I say this simply if your next rationale is British young players are not as talented as say Spanish, French or Brazilian) and they have the potential to play for us for atleast 10 solid years. They will be on smaller wages, and as long as they feel they are contributing to the team, are very unlikely to leave.
I am sure there are more reasons, which I will continue to add as I get the time. But hope these will do for now.
1) Rules and Regulations: This is the simplest one. Registration for PL and UCL REQUIRE you to have domestic players and players who are trained at the club or in england before the age of 18. How could you do that if the academy decides to focus on substandard players. Why else do you think Man City paid over the top money for Sterling in the summer ?
2) It's A Sustainable Environment: Every top club in the world has an excellent mix of Homegrown/Academy talent and foreign imports. There is a reason this formula works. Youth players are the knit and grit of the team, showing unbelievable passion for the club they love and the expensive recruits have incredible quality and talent at their disposal. These traits are constantly exchanged at the youth level. (Just YouTube videos of van Nistelrooy teaching a young Welbeck how to dribble). You need a mix of everything to have a successful team and more importantly, a successful squad. You can't just buy that. You need to build some of that in-house.
3) It's Cheaper Long Term: Imagine spending 120 Million pounds a year on a player (like Bale, Ronaldo, Neymar) for buying a world class talent and on top of that, the insane salaries, these guys are on. And what is the ROI ? 3-6 years of top quality football or maybe even less (if you go by recent purchases). But make a one time investment of 300-400 million (these figures are my own estimates and probably don't reflect actual costs) on improving the infrastructure, the networking, facilities and then maybe 2-10 million a year to develop our own world class players (A homegrown player need not necessarily be British, just look at La Masia and the international talent they recruit when the players are just 12-15. I say this simply if your next rationale is British young players are not as talented as say Spanish, French or Brazilian) and they have the potential to play for us for atleast 10 solid years. They will be on smaller wages, and as long as they feel they are contributing to the team, are very unlikely to leave.
I am sure there are more reasons, which I will continue to add as I get the time. But hope these will do for now.
Between the Busby and Fergie eras, I'm pretty sure people think exactly the same thing. Any veterans here care to comment?