What does this have to do with Man Utd?One of the strongest arguments in favour of using youth players within the squad hasn't even been mentioned in my opinion. Clubs such as Ajax and Barcelona have a very defined playing style, one that they consider is part of their identity as a club. All of their youth teams play in exactly the same style. That means that all players that go through their youth system are familiar with their playing philosophy and are cogs that can be fitted directly into their team. One of the reasons that for example Di Maria failed with us was because he wasn't able to adapt to our playing style. You can put in all the money you want into players, but then you first have to re-educate them into your playing style. With LvG's team we currently see how much time that takes. Therefore a good youth system, that not only helps young players to develop but also educates them to play in the style of the first team is instrumental to success.
No, you missed the point completely.The Title suggested that you think the club should not focus much on Youth Development. But your premise for the same is pretty bonkers to be honest (No Offence!). You say what is the point developing world class talent only to sell them eventually... and quoted the example of Ronaldo
You miss the point of the youth academy completely. We've never ever sat on our backsides waiting for great players from the academy, at least not in recent times. In fact, noone does that and I have no idea why you've created this bizarre situation in your head that we would. Imagine a club going "yeah.. youth.. let's not buy.. just wait for 15 year old Shimshah Kalubi to become world class".No, you missed the point completely.
The point is that if we wait to get a new generation of great players from our academy, then we will be without trophies for decades.
Youth development is fine, but it is irrelevant for us NOW. It would be silly to wait with the hope that our academy someday will produce someone who may become great.
My suggestion is that it is imperative to focus on both at the same time. It's not really that hard is it ? You can't ignore one and focus on the other. And I am sure nobody here on this forum thinks, we will churn out a world class player any time soon. But that doesn't mean we stop trying. And as for your point that they are Irrelevant NOW, I'd have to disagree. We have a really thin squad and from time to time (especially when we have a long casualty list), we have to turn out to the younger one's. And ultimately, you can never judge whether these players can make it or not unless you give them a chance(either at the club or by sending them on loan). It's not like we are moulding our current teams around these youngsters like we did for the class of 92'. They are playing a part in our campaign and if they do well enough, I am sure they will be given more chances.No, you missed the point completely.
The point is that if we wait to get a new generation of great players from our academy, then we will be without trophies for decades.
Youth development is fine, but it is irrelevant for us NOW. It would be silly to wait with the hope that our academy someday will produce someone who may become great.
This is your conclusion:No, you missed the point completely.
The point is that if we wait to get a new generation of great players from our academy, then we will be without trophies for decades.
Youth development is fine, but it is irrelevant for us NOW. It would be silly to wait with the hope that our academy someday will produce someone who may become great.
You are the one who seems to not understand that developing players and buying world class players are not too competing notions, United shouldn't "forget youth development" and shouldn't stop purchasing world class players.Forget youth development, it is not relevant for us. What we really need is world class players. We cannot realistically expect that our academies will produce those. It is more important to have a world class manager (Mourinho) who can buy world class players.
This. I just said the same mate.You are the one who seems to not understand that developing players and buying world class players are not too competing notions, United shouldn't "forget youth development" and shouldn't stop purchasing world class players.
What happened in the 1980s is irrelevant because the situation has changed completely.Between the Busby and Fergie eras, I'm pretty sure people think exactly the same thing. Any veterans here care to comment?
There are a lot people who reject Mourinho because he may not "develop the youth".You are the one who seems to not understand that developing players and buying world class players are not too competing notions, United shouldn't "forget youth development" and shouldn't stop purchasing world class players.
Since no one is waiting for that to happen, we are alright.What happened in the 1980s is irrelevant because the situation has changed completely.
Today we have mega-clubs with global reach and global TV rights. Clubs worth billions.
If a club wants to belong to the elite, it cannot wait for decades to produce the next Beckham.
Are deliberately refusing to read other people's posts? Why would the club wait? Do you think we'll sign no right winger for 10 years waiting for a youth superstar?What happened in the 1980s is irrelevant because the situation has changed completely.
Today we have mega-clubs with global reach and global TV rights. Clubs worth billions.
If a club wants to belong to the elite, it cannot wait for decades to produce the next Beckham.
And yes, my point is valid because I am talking sort term, for the next 2-3 years. Our academy is irrelevant right now. We need a few world class players to get to the next level. Or else, we risk becoming irrelevant as a club, the same that happened to Liverpool in the 1990s.This is your conclusion:
You are the one who seems to not understand that developing players and buying world class players are not too competing notions, United shouldn't "forget youth development" and shouldn't stop purchasing world class players.
Of course I do want Mourinho! He is one of the best managers in the world today, together with Guardiola.@nick2004 - do you by any chance really want Mourinho manage us? This is about that and his record with youth, isn't it? Because everything you're posting is incoherent rambling right now. No club sits and waits for great youth products to appear.
So your problem is that we are not sold on Mourinho? United needs a manager, he is a head coach, United needs someone that will take care of everything, the Academy is included in that.There are a lot people who reject Mourinho because he may not "develop the youth".
Stop lying, you weren't talking about 2-3 years. Your OP is clearly a general point, the shorter time frame that you used was the next 5 years and the rest of the post clearly implies that your point is systemic.And yes, my point is valid because I am talking sort term, for the next 2-3 years. Our academy is irrelevant right now. We need a few world class players to get to the next level. Or else, we risk becoming irrelevant as a club, the same that happened to Liverpool in the 1990s.
No, my problem is that many people believe that what happened once in the past, will happen again. We are not going to produce another "class of 92" any time soon. We are already 3 years without any trophies and with zero hope of getting one any time soon. If we stay another three years away from the Global-Top-Class of clubs, we risk becoming like Liverpool in the 1990s. The world has changed. We have to think short term.So your problem is that we are not sold on Mourinho? United needs a manager, he is a head coach, United needs someone that will take care of everything, the Academy is included in that.
Also, you want world class players? Someone is going to develop the homegrown players, if it's Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal or City, we won't be able to purchase them, that's also why it's important for United to be an important player factory because the young players that we will produce, the ones who are good enough, will be loyal to us.
So your problem is that we are not sold on Mourinho?
Precisely what I felt from the first post.It was a lot easier to say:
I desperately want Mourinho at the club and I dont want his complete lack of importance on youth development as a road block to this.
Oh yes, I think that this trend will remain for long. But I cannot predict what the situation will be in 5 years from now. For example, American Sports have resolved these money problems in specific ways, in order to have some parity. Perhaps football will introduce some of these measures as well.Stop lying, you weren't talking about 2-3 years. Your OP is clearly a general point, the shorter time frame that you used was the next 5 years and the rest of the post clearly implies that your point is systemic.
Knew it. Should have just created a thread saying I want mourinho so bad.Of course I do want Mourinho! He is one of the best managers in the world today, together with Guardiola.
Also, Rooney and Ronaldo were first team players at 17! And they did help us to win trophies.Kids with special talent would be useful to have around even at a young age. Maldini and Baresi won their first team place at age 17-18, Giggs and Owen did the same at around the same age while Pogba won his first team place at Juventus at age 19. Even our Wes showed great promise at age 18 when he kept Jimmy Floyd out of the game. The likes of Mcfail may require more time to be squad players level but there again they will probably never be first team level in the first place.
We need to focus on a smaller pool of youth players with the actual talent to make it, not as squad players but first teamers. Nothing should be left to chance. They should be trained by the best youth coaches and given as much first team opportunities as possible. Squad players and players who can do the job should be shown the door quickly in favor of talent with the actual talent to make it
So, in the last few years we spent a lot of money, and haven't improved. So we should spend a lot of money, because that way, success is guaranteed.People who disagree with what I wrote in my original post, also consider this:
In the past 2 years, we have changed our whole squad. Yes, we did spend 200 million or whatever, but in the biggest picture that's peanuts for Man Utd.
What is the end result? Nothing! Unfortunately, we are more or less the same! We still don't have the players who can make the difference.
Now, let's imagine that somehow we could buy Messi, Neymar and Souarez. We would walk the league!!! Either with our current squad, or with the Moyes squad.
Concussion:
If we want to belong to the Global Elite we need a few World Class players and a World Class manager, NOW! And it is VERY difficult to get them! The rest of the squad can be bought. Or if we are lucky, they can be home-grown, it doesn't matter because there are many-many-many squad players in the world. So, right now the academy is irrelevant for our main goal: to win trophies. The biggest problem is how to get a winning manager and how to get a few world class players.
And it's rare to buy futur stars at that age, should we stop that too? I know people will use Martial as an example but the circumstances were special, he wouldn't have left Lyon if they didn't had temporary problems with the DNCG, they had to find around 5m asap, it was a freak occurrence.Also, Rooney and Ronaldo were first team players at 17! And they did help us to win trophies.
We did buy them!
Sums all your posts up well.People who disagree with what I wrote in my original post, also consider this:
In the past 2 years, we have changed our whole squad. Yes, we did spend 200 million or whatever, but in the biggest picture that's peanuts for Man Utd.
What is the end result? Nothing! Unfortunately, we are more or less the same! We still don't have the players who can make the difference.
Now, let's imagine that somehow we could buy Messi, Neymar and Souarez. We would walk the league!!! Either with our current squad, or with the Moyes squad.
Concussion:
If we want to belong to the Global Elite we need a few World Class players and a World Class manager, NOW! And it is VERY difficult to get them! The rest of the squad can be bought. Or if we are lucky, they can be home-grown, it doesn't matter because there are many-many-many squad players in the world. So, right now the academy is irrelevant for our main goal: to win trophies. The biggest problem is how to get a winning manager and how to get a few world class players.
It's only 9 years of profits, peanuts.People who disagree with what I wrote in my original post, also consider this:
In the past 2 years, we have changed our whole squad. Yes, we did spend 200 million or whatever, but in the biggest picture that's peanuts for Man Utd.
What is the end result? Nothing! Unfortunately, we are more or less the same! We still don't have the players who can make the difference.
Now, let's imagine that somehow we could buy Messi, Neymar and Souarez. We would walk the league!!! Either with our current squad, or with the Moyes squad.
Concussion:
If we want to belong to the Global Elite we need a few World Class players and a World Class manager, NOW! And it is VERY difficult to get them! The rest of the squad can be bought. Or if we are lucky, they can be home-grown, it doesn't matter because there are many-many-many squad players in the world. So, right now the academy is irrelevant for our main goal: to win trophies. The biggest problem is how to get a winning manager and how to get a few world class players.
That's the line of thought, ie stick to a small pool of players, bring the best youth coaches to train them and give them as much first team opportunities as possIBleedRed. That can be achieved by getting rid of squad players as much as possibleAlso, Rooney and Ronaldo were first team players at 17! And they did help us to win trophies.
We did buy them!
Either that (do the Chelsea way), or improve in that aspect. We are seeing from Spurs that it can be doneo produce good youth players.We haven't produced a top quality players throughout the youth team since the class of 92.
The idea we bring through youth talent is absolute bullocks.
Just buy the best prospects. That's the way to compete.
Bayern and barca beg to differWe haven't produced a top quality players throughout the youth team since the class of 92.
The idea we bring through youth talent is absolute bullocks.
Just buy the best prospects. That's the way to compete.
You don't really need to invest heavily on the issue, the most expensive academy is La Masia and Barcelona spend 10m€ per year, basically it can almost become a free investment because, you can sell a handful of players every years. iirc, United are around 2m or 3m per year.Either that (do the Chelsea way), or improve in that aspect. We are seeing from Spurs that it can be doneo produce good youth players.
As it is, I don't se the point. We spend so much time trying to produce youth players but generally we get an okay/good players only every few years and no world class players since the class of '92. It isn't a good return for the time spent on giving the young players chances.
Surely something should change. I hope that we invest heavily on this issue, similar to what City did. If we do that, combined with the time we give young players, surely there should be better results. But - despite that I generally defend Glazers here - I cannot see them investing 200m or so in that matter. The financial return on 10 years or so, most likely will be lower than the investment.
They have an almost monopoly in Catalonia though, and pretty much everyone on that region dreams to join them. In addition, Spain (together with Germany) are probably the best football countries right now.You don't really need to invest heavily on the issue, the most expensive academy is La Masia and Barcelona spend 10m€ per year, basically it can almost become a free investment because, you can sell a handful of players every years. iirc, United are around 2m or 3m per year.
I think you make an interesting overall point in the OP and there is probably some truth in there, in the sense that developing your own stars is not as important in an age of globalisation as it was in the past.What is the possibility of developing a world class player through our academies in the next 5 years? Almost zero! There are thousands and thousands academies all over the world today. Many of them have good systems.
Most of Barcelona's youngsters aren't from Catalonia, so that's just a terrible excuse. But most importantly I just shared the information about the amount of money that you need (on average it's between 3m-5m). You said that the Glazers won't spend 200m on the problem and I tell you that they don't have to, 1 Bebe costs more than 2 years of activities of most big academies, Welbeck financed more than 5 years.They have an almost monopoly in Catalonia though, and pretty much everyone on that region dreams to join them. In addition, Spain (together with Germany) are probably the best football countries right now.
Here it would be more difficult because in 30 miles we have 4 Premier League clubs. In addition, City offers to young players and their families a good financial package while also having superior training ground. Which is perhaps why we have started heavily recruiting from outside of England.
Agree.I think you make an interesting overall point in the OP and there is probably some truth in there, in the sense that developing your own stars is not as important in an age of globalisation as it was in the past.
However, the logic in the bit I have quoted is weak, for me. What other teams do does not affect our chances of developing great players. Its not like only 10 great players can be developed per year, and the more teams try the less chance each team has. It is true that we have struggled to produce great players in recent years but it can be done. I guess I am nitpicking but I wouldnt put the possibility at almost zero.
The reason to do it is not necessarily financial - or not predominantly so. The reason to do it is because it is good for the "soul" of the club. Having a home grown core provides a layer of protection against becoming a team of mercenary fannies, basically. That isnt just romantic idealism either, I would argue that is one of the big differences between our great teams under SAF and Chelsea's great teams under Mourinho (OK Lampard wasnt actually developed at Chelsea but he joined them early enough that he practically was, much like Rooney with us) and City now. They have very talented players but there is clearly something missing, I think that is a core of players with some motivation other than picking up a salary at the end of every month. One way to get that is through developing your own players.
But yeah, its less important than it used to be.
Out of interest can you find any links to substantiate this? I havent read his latest book, I assume if he said anything like this it was in there?Naturally there is also the hidden cost of talented young players we may have missed out on because we wrongly believe we have young players who're as good in their position (I believe Fergie has said this a few times)
