Youth player expectations

Mylock

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With the introduction of social media forums and the likes of YouTube, Fans are far too eager to pass judgement on youth players that are given a few minutes of playing time. The case of the point is McNeill who was given 8 minutes and didn't touch the ball.
Any youth players who go through the system and are at the club when they are 18+ have to extremely talented and dedicated.
To play in the PL is every kid's dream, it's some achievement to get as far as playing for United at any level, never mind the 1st team.
The only ones who know if a player is good enough are the manager. Fans should give them a fair chance without passing judgment.
 
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red woppit

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With the introduction of social media forums and the likes of YouTube, Fans are far too eager to pass judgement on youth players that are given a few minutes of playing time. The case of the point is O'Neill who was given 8 minutes and didn't touch the ball.
Any youth players who go through the system and are at the club when they are 18+ have to extremely talented and dedicated.
To play in the PL is every kid's dream, it's some achievement to get as far as playing for United at any level, never mind the 1st team.
The only ones who know if a player is good enough are the manager. Fans should give them a fair chance without passing judgment.
I think you mean McNeill not O'Neill, but yes you are right. In today's 'instant' society, everything has to be now, not tomorrow. There is certainly a tendency to label players after watching them for only a few minutes in a game, and not only youth players, Casemiro has been pilloried already, and Ronaldo this season despite nether of them having much game time.
Elanga has been written off by some already, Garnacho has been likened to Elanga already as not good enough.
Some of these players may not make it at United, but I'm also certain that some will, and it may be a season, or two or even three seasons before some of these gain a regular place in the squad.
I also think that the people that physically support the team by going to matches are the real supporters of Manchester United, quite a number of posters on here claim to be supporters, but primarily are only interested in seeing themselves in print, and have no come back when they come out with overtly ridiculous statements and theories.
 

Trequarista10

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Someone posted this comment during the match against Sociedad:

I’m sorry, but Ten Hag putting these two clowns Garnacho and McNeil on is just ridiculous.
I get its the match day thread and emotions are high, but what a pillock.
 

Varun

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With the introduction of social media forums and the likes of YouTube, Fans are far too eager to pass judgement on youth players that are given a few minutes of playing time. The case of the point is O'Neill who was given 8 minutes and didn't touch the ball.
Any youth players who go through the system and are at the club when they are 18+ have to extremely talented and dedicated.
To play in the PL is every kid's dream, it's some achievement to get as far as playing for United at any level, never mind the 1st team.
The only ones who know if a player is good enough are the manager. Fans should give them a fair chance without passing judgment.
Fans love to sound clued up and thanks to readily available stats on websites, you have so many experts about players plying their trade in Romania let alone the Utd youth setup. They don't know their arse from their elbow mind but plenty find it oddly satisfying to sound knowledgeable
 

Beaucoup

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Fans love to sound clued up and thanks to readily available stats on websites, you have so many experts about players plying their trade in Romania let alone the Utd youth setup. They don't know their arse from their elbow mind but plenty find it oddly satisfying to sound knowledgeable
Nailed it
 

jesperjaap

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Fans love to sound clued up and thanks to readily available stats on websites, you have so many experts about players plying their trade in Romania let alone the Utd youth setup. They don't know their arse from their elbow mind but plenty find it oddly satisfying to sound knowledgeable
Yes, I feel this with some of the major youtube pundits its especially prevalent. Its obvious they care about the club but some of the tactical nonsense they come up with and in depth analysis on individuals as if they are there first team coach when its pretty obvious they havent seen them moe than a couple of times if at all often, is ridiculous.

As for writing off youth straight away as the initial poster says, definately some truth in that, the other side of the coin is as bad if you ask me. Over hyping some of these 18 year olds as first teamers with a season or two and buildign our team around them. Really dont think you can build a side around youth players breaking through in a season or so, just look at the recent history, Gomez was going to be a regular starter after his impressive cameo under Mourinho....no longer here. Garner was a future captain and the loans were just to progress his game quicker....no longer here. Hannibal, Amad, Laird....huely talented players who are going to break through and possible beregular starters this season.....all out on loan.

The step up from youth to first team football is huge, these youngstes need opportunities which are hard to come buy in a league awash with money but the reality is, gettigng a couple of first teamers every decade is a realisitc goal.

Just look at the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool, a whole host of excellent youngsters have come through there ranks over the last five years or so, yet they probably only have one or two first team starters each
 

Smores

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The annoying part is the judgement that any youth not playing must not be ready. That's a easy and logical statement for those not watching youth games but it's also lazy and bollocks.

Nearly all the youngsters that do come through do so because of a squad gap or injury. It's not the most talented that often gets game time but the player who fills the need at that moment.

Elanga and even Rashford at the time were no more ready than quite a few of our current youngsters. Yet they took their opportunity in a game and suddenly you become a first team player.

That's the make or break for a youth player and how many are judged by fans. In reality they should get a couple of seasons as subs at the minimum to see if they adapt. Our fans make more allowance for established players adapting to the PL than they do youth stepping up, always find that odd.
 

MrSingh2002

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I think McNeill is destined for the top and a top career. I hope he gets the same chances that Rashford and Greenwood got.

None of the others seem like world beaters but Garnacho, Shoretire and Iqbal are surely going to have good careers too.
 

Tom Cato

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The fan standard for a teenager with impact has become Jude Bellingham, Erling Haaland, Mbappe or a Foden. If youre not a superstar by the age of 21, you are just not good enough.
 

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With the introduction of social media forums and the likes of YouTube, Fans are far too eager to pass judgement on youth players that are given a few minutes of playing time. The case of the point is O'Neill who was given 8 minutes and didn't touch the ball.
Any youth players who go through the system and are at the club when they are 18+ have to extremely talented and dedicated.
To play in the PL is every kid's dream, it's some achievement to get as far as playing for United at any level, never mind the 1st team.
The only ones who know if a player is good enough are the manager. Fans should give them a fair chance without passing judgment.
I agree but as a counter-argument, I feel the club have been guilty of romanticising academy products and holding on to them for too long.

Personally, I feel that if a player is going to be truly top-level then they should generally be ready for first-team football at 18/19 - of course, there are exceptions that prove the rule but most top players play mens football as a teenager. Therefore professional coaches who see these lads every day in training should know by 20 at the absolute latest if these players can make it at United.

Ultimately, holding on too long and keeping then in limbo is bad for the club and bad for the player. The likes of Henderson, Tuanzebe and Williams should have been moved on or given a proper opportunity. Existing in a no-mans land of loans, u23 games and league cup matches does nothing for them
 

diarm

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Someone posted this comment during the match against Sociedad:



I get its the match day thread and emotions are high, but what a pillock.
To be honest, comments like that should just be met with an instant ban. What business does anyone have being a United fan with an attitude like that?
 

Bwuk

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Always find it funny how many people are experts on youth teams but probably never watch them play!
 

justsomebloke

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I agree but as a counter-argument, I feel the club have been guilty of romanticising academy products and holding on to them for too long.

Personally, I feel that if a player is going to be truly top-level then they should generally be ready for first-team football at 18/19 - of course, there are exceptions that prove the rule but most top players play mens football as a teenager. Therefore professional coaches who see these lads every day in training should know by 20 at the absolute latest if these players can make it at United.

Ultimately, holding on too long and keeping then in limbo is bad for the club and bad for the player. The likes of Henderson, Tuanzebe and Williams should have been moved on or given a proper opportunity. Existing in a no-mans land of loans, u23 games and league cup matches does nothing for them
I think that's too simple.

- Players development trajectories vary. Typically the very, very top talent make their mark already in their teens, but there are also players who become top performers in their late twenties without having been considered that level of talent earlier. Jamie Vardy, for example. You really can't generalise too much.
- You don't necessarily have to become a star to make it at United - we can use some squad players too.
- I think other clubs (Chelsea, City and more) have demonstrated pretty conclusively that it's perfectly feasible to develop young players primarily through loans.
 

Solius

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Someone posted this comment during the match against Sociedad:



I get its the match day thread and emotions are high, but what a pillock.
I went to check who posted this and it was nice to see they'd already been banned.
 

Zed 101

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My formative Utd years spoiled me with the likes of Giggs and co. so part of me expects superstars to be brought into the team at a rate of knots.

I read these pages about our youth projects and try to watch what I can, I get excited too often, I love nothing more than the success of a player brought through the youth system.

Those who have what it takes do get recognised, ok Elanga is not everybody's favourite player (many critics) but he clearly can contribute to football at this level (whether long term Utd or another club), he got in to the 1st 11, so the opportunities are there (before him, Pogba, Rashford, Mc T....).

Looking at it with a dispassionate eye though, of all these prospects over the years, very few have made any impact on the first team, of those who have eventually been sent off to other clubs I cannot really call to mind any that have come back to haunt us by proving to be capable of playing at the top level (as per Chelsea, De Bruyne, Lukaku etc...).

I guess my take away is that it is not lack of opportunities, or risk adverse Managers that are restricting youth development, instead I just believe our youth players in general just aren't that good.
 

jesperjaap

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I agree but as a counter-argument, I feel the club have been guilty of romanticising academy products and holding on to them for too long.

Personally, I feel that if a player is going to be truly top-level then they should generally be ready for first-team football at 18/19 - of course, there are exceptions that prove the rule but most top players play mens football as a teenager. Therefore professional coaches who see these lads every day in training should know by 20 at the absolute latest if these players can make it at United.

Ultimately, holding on too long and keeping then in limbo is bad for the club and bad for the player. The likes of Henderson, Tuanzebe and Williams should have been moved on or given a proper opportunity. Existing in a no-mans land of loans, u23 games and league cup matches does nothing for them
Disagree, you get some that come through and look promising at tha tkind of age such as Brandon Williams and fade, but (and it may be the point you are making) generally only thr truly top top stars are playing regular first team football as teenagers.

Look at Chelsea as an example Mason Mount, Connor Gallagher, Chalobah are all good players who have only got opportunities at 21 years old and Im not certain but wasnt Reece James 20 even when he broke through? Chelsea are a bit of an exception.

But the premiership is very different to the days of Fergies fledglings and the like. The league is awash with money and larger scouting networks, it is harder for younger players to break through that it was then. Just look at the number of teenage players who have moved abroad to get first team football from our league to gey opportunities, was almost unheard of a decade or so ago and often the club doesnt want to lose the players, they just cant offer first team football at that stage for the player
 
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I think most of them have a chance but really hoping Mainoo kicks on and makes it... love watching him play (but realise likely a season or so before gets chances).

In reply to ops point, absolutely right and I made that point on the matchday thread (coming on for a few minutes against a team sitting back on a 1-0 lead is a tough ask for any sub, never mind one so young).

It'd be good if posters could try and watch some U21 games/highlights (easy to do so) and get a more informed view and not the "instant" world we seem to live in.
 

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I think that's too simple.

- Players development trajectories vary. Typically the very, very top talent make their mark already in their teens, but there are also players who become top performers in their late twenties without having been considered that level of talent earlier. Jamie Vardy, for example. You really can't generalise too much.
- You don't necessarily have to become a star to make it at United - we can use some squad players too.
- I think other clubs (Chelsea, City and more) have demonstrated pretty conclusively that it's perfectly feasible to develop young players primarily through loans.
- the 'exceptions that prove the rule'.

- no...but you do need to be an 'elite-level' player to be a useful squad player for United...and therefore in order to do that, you need to be playing football matches during your key formative years. Even if you take your classic 'good squad player' lads from back in the SAF era, all of them played for us regularly in their late teens/early 20s or on occasion had one good loan (not an endless series of loans into their mid 20s)

I am thinking here Butt, Brown, Phil Neville, Darren Fletcher, Johnny Evans, John O'Shea, Danny Welbeck etc...all of them played for us and/or played regularly for a good side in their late teens/early 20s. They didn't rot on the bench or go on six loans into their mid 20s.

- which players would you say contribute regularly to City or Chelsea who have developed through loans? I can't think of anybody at City...Chelsea you could maybe, maybe argue RLC but he's a fringe player at best and probably actually a good example of my point - a player who's career has been somewhat ruined by countless loans.
 

Lentwood

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Disagree, you get some that come through and look promising at tha tkind of age such as Brandon Williams and fade, but (and it may be the point you are making) generally only thr truly top top stars are playing regular first team football as teenagers.

Look at Chelsea as an example Mason Mount, Connor Gallagher, Chalobah are all good players who have only got opportunities at 21 years old and Im not certain but wasnt Reece James 20 even when he broke through? Chelsea are a bit of an exception.

But the premiership is very different to the days of Fergies fledglings and the like. The league is awash with money and larger scouting networks, it is harder for younger players to break through that it was then. Just look at the number of teenage players who have moved abroad to get first team football from our league to gey opportunities, was almost unheard of a decade or so ago and often the club doesnt want to lose the players, they just cant offer first team football at that stage for the player
Yeah but those players went on good loans and played football in their late teens. They didn't sit rotting on the bench/playing u23 games.

I made a comment about 'bad loans' which has possibly been interpreted as a comment on the loan system in general. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of loans as a means to develop players but it can be very useful in some circumstances to get game-time into promising young players. All of the lads you mentioned were playing 30+ games in the Championship at 18/19 and therefore I would class those as 'good loans' which serve a purpose.

After that though, it's decision-time. Axel Tuanzebe is 24. Brandon William is 22. Dean Henderson is 25. Ethan Laird is 21 and has been in and out of various Championship sides over the course of a couple of loans. How many loans did Chong have before we finally sold him for a pittance? We've only just sold Andreas Pereira after how many loans? He must be mid-20s easily!

My point in all of this is that we need to start deciding sooner what trajectory a player is on. At 18/19, we need to be thinking is this player a) a potential superstar who is ready for 1st-team game-time b) a potentially good player who needs games, and therefore a Championship loan or c) unlikely to make it at the top level and need to be put in the shop window or released

It seems to me like we just don't make decisions. Tuanzebe had a good loan at Villa then we completely wasted the chance to take a good transfer fee, likewise Dean Henderson after his Sheffield United loan,
 

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Impatience, that's not only happening with the youth players though. Sancho 2 games in was a flop to at least 25% of the caf, same seems to happen with Antony. Both young players, both with room to grow and improve but if they don't completely dominate the league in the first two games they will be labeled as flops immediately.
 

justsomebloke

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- the 'exceptions that prove the rule'.

- no...but you do need to be an 'elite-level' player to be a useful squad player for United...and therefore in order to do that, you need to be playing football matches during your key formative years. Even if you take your classic 'good squad player' lads from back in the SAF era, all of them played for us regularly in their late teens/early 20s or on occasion had one good loan (not an endless series of loans into their mid 20s)

I am thinking here Butt, Brown, Phil Neville, Darren Fletcher, Johnny Evans, John O'Shea, Danny Welbeck etc...all of them played for us and/or played regularly for a good side in their late teens/early 20s. They didn't rot on the bench or go on six loans into their mid 20s.

- which players would you say contribute regularly to City or Chelsea who have developed through loans? I can't think of anybody at City...Chelsea you could maybe, maybe argue RLC but he's a fringe player at best and probably actually a good example of my point - a player who's career has been somewhat ruined by countless loans.
They're not exceptions that prove the rule. Young players genuinely and generally have very different development trajectories. You could just as well say those teenage stars are the exception that prove the rule. There is no set age at which you can expect a young player to have reached the level he's going to reach.

You do need to play football in your formative years, but you don't necessarily need to do it for United.

Conor Gallagher is the prize example, I suppose. Chelsea and City have developed loads of good players through loans in recent years. They haven't chosen to keep most of them, but that's a different matter. They have represented very major transfer income though, so that is very viable asset development. Just because a player haven't stayed at City or Chelsea doesn't mean he hasn't developed into a very good player.
 

jesperjaap

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Yeah but those players went on good loans and played football in their late teens. They didn't sit rotting on the bench/playing u23 games.

I made a comment about 'bad loans' which has possibly been interpreted as a comment on the loan system in general. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of loans as a means to develop players but it can be very useful in some circumstances to get game-time into promising young players. All of the lads you mentioned were playing 30+ games in the Championship at 18/19 and therefore I would class those as 'good loans' which serve a purpose.

After that though, it's decision-time. Axel Tuanzebe is 24. Brandon William is 22. Dean Henderson is 25. Ethan Laird is 21 and has been in and out of various Championship sides over the course of a couple of loans. How many loans did Chong have before we finally sold him for a pittance? We've only just sold Andreas Pereira after how many loans? He must be mid-20s easily!

My point in all of this is that we need to start deciding sooner what trajectory a player is on. At 18/19, we need to be thinking is this player a) a potential superstar who is ready for 1st-team game-time b) a potentially good player who needs games, and therefore a Championship loan or c) unlikely to make it at the top level and need to be put in the shop window or released

It seems to me like we just don't make decisions. Tuanzebe had a good loan at Villa then we completely wasted the chance to take a good transfer fee, likewise Dean Henderson after his Sheffield United loan,
Fair enough but

a) potential superstar, lets face it one such player every five years or so within a club is a result, the last fifteen years we have probably had three such players and could argue Pogba has made it the other two for off filed reasons probably never will and the one that supposedly did wasnt a success here

b) I dont think potentially good players have to be loaned, the number of games English clubs play, numbe of competitions, size of the bench and with the world cup this year, there should be a number of opportunities in Carabao cup, dead rubber European games, early FAC Cup games, from the bench if games are won. I think there is more benefit for players to maybe get 20mins from the bench 10_ games personally than a loan. It does sound to me a bit like a good loan is only a good loan if it is a success

c) I think these are the players that should get loaned more to put them in the shop window
 

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They're not exceptions that prove the rule. Young players genuinely and generally have very different development trajectories. You could just as well say those teenage stars are the exception that prove the rule. There is no set age at which you can expect a young player to have reached the level he's going to reach.

You do need to play football in your formative years, but you don't necessarily need to do it for United.

Conor Gallagher is the prize example, I suppose. Chelsea and City have developed loads of good players through loans in recent years. They haven't chosen to keep most of them, but that's a different matter. They have represented very major transfer income though, so that is very viable asset development. Just because a player haven't stayed at City or Chelsea doesn't mean he hasn't developed into a very good player.
This is where I have fairly strong opinions on the how young players can develop though.

There are posters who seem to have this idea that footballers will just 'get better' as they get older and that's just a given. I strongly dispute that.

In fact, I would argue that from a technical perspective, the vast majority of footballers will be about as good as they are ever going to be by the time they hit 20/21. Bear in-mind, most of them will have been playing academy football at the various different age groups for the best part of 10 years at 21, so I find it highly unlikely that somehow a player is just suddenly going to get better at shooting or passing or tackling or any of the core technical skills at 21+

Plus, most footballers will be in their physical prime at about 21/22 until about 28/29. There used to be this feeling that footballers had a shelf-life into their early 30s but the demands and the intensity of the modern game are increasingly making it difficult for the majority of players to continue at a really elite level into their mid-30s

Now, of course, we can and do see many players develop their game post 21+ and become better players, however, I feel this comes with maturity and experience, which have a greater impact on the tactical/mental side of the game and as such, players learn to become 'more effective' but not necessarily 'technically better'.

Take Ronaldo and Rooney as classic examples of how young players can develop and improve.

Ronaldo was a 'show pony' when he arrived at United. Incredibly technically gifted but someone who would seemingly rather beat three defenders than score a goal or provide a match-winning assist. SAF and his coaching team spent countless hours on the training ground with Ronaldo turning him from talented but ineffective into a goal-scoring machine

Likewise, when Rooney arrived at United he was world-class technically but a raw bundle of energy and aggression. He would charge around the pitch like a dog chasing a tennis ball (his nickname at Everton was actually 'dog') and he would be wasting his time and energy playing in the wrong areas. Therefore, his goal-return was not as good as it could have been.

Again, as he developed and he learnt to use his aggression more positively, curtail his temper and improved his tactical understanding of the 'right' areas to play in, he became far more effective.

Now....contrast that with some of our modern-day young recruits/academy products. Rashford is a prime example of someone who, in my opinion, was always going to be capped by a lack of elite technical ability. I don't care that he was only 18/19 when he came into the team, there were too many poor touches, erratic dribbles, bad passes etc...which suggested to me that this was a player who's 'physical' level was good but who's 'technical level' was average at best. Therefore, he was never, ever, ever going to be a Ronaldo, a Messi, a Rooney or an Mbappe who all possessed unbelievable technical ability at 18/19.

That's not to say Rashford can't be useful and/or cannot be coached to be a more effective player....but it does mean the coaches should have identified this earlier and moulded him accordingly. They have not done this and we have seen his career stall.

In contrast, Shaw and Martial are two examples of young recruits with excellent technical ability. Both of them posses superb footballing attributes, close control, passing ability, comfortable in possession etc...however...neither player has been coached as effectively, or has had the same desire to improve, as players like Ronaldo and Rooney.

So my point in all of this is that the club need to get far, far better at understanding where our young players are at and what they need to develop. If that's a loan to gain experience of playing men's football then great...but they're not suddenly going to improve technically for spending a year at Birmingham or Swansea...so if they don't have those skills at 18/19/20 it's probably time to be thinking about moving them on! If they DO have raw technical ability but need to develop the physical/mental/tactical side of their game and/or just be tested in the faster, hectic environment of men's football...again...great, get them on loan in the Champinship.

If, like a recent Academy graduate who must not be named, they DO have elite technical ability at a young age...then they should be starting games at 17/18 or at least involved on the bench and getting minutes. At that point, it's down to what they have between the ears and the skill of our coaches to get them on the right track and to help them develop their mental/tactical game to add to their raw ability. You will notice, these players rarely go on loan. Again, someone is going to come out the woodwork and give me the 'exceptions that prove the rule' but I can't think of many elite level players who went on loan at 18/19....other than David Beckham, maybe.

It's not really rocket-science, it's just something we have done very poorly recently. We seem to put academy lads or young players on a pedestal and just assume that they'll hit 23 and suddenly be brilliant just because they got older. This is nonsense and illogical thinking...we're also failing these players by not helping them maximise what they have
 

Beaucoup

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In recent years our Academy has definitely favoured physically/early developed players over technical players, hence when these lads inevitably fail they drop into the lower leagues