On their day they do.
But right now Kroos and Modric seem a bit tired. They need rest.
Zidane sack watch - 19/20
- Thread starter JoaquinJoaquin
- Start date
But right now Kroos and Modric seem a bit tired. They need rest.
They play too much. Ødegaard leaving, injuries and Isco being done as a top level player kinda limits what Zidane can do in this regard. Valverde is the one cover player he can count on (and he's injured too).
May just change the title: Zidane will stay another season. Some of his prefered experienced players are already renewing contracts.
"Dominated Europe" by winning 2 CL in 4 years. Zidane's team isn't as good because it only won the CL thrice in 2.5 seasons under him? What kind of logic is that?
If we're counting mickey-mouse cups, sure! Does Arsenal's Emirates Trophy also count? Or Mourinho's Community Shield? This is now just dross.
Zidane's achievements are laughably underrated. Barca's team under Pep was considered by some to be the best of all time. Real Madrid under Zidane faced 2 very tough competitors (first stint) in Atleti and Barca. Zidane endured just one dip, while Pep's collapsed to lose to Jose. The fact that Tito cantered to the title immediately after speaks a lot about the team itself.
Zidane then did something Pep clearly doesn't have the stomach for. Came back to his club when it was in absolute crisis and being written-off. He took over a team that was supposedly in terminal decline - and then faced the COVID disaster. To underplay Zidane by pointing to some meaningless trinkets of Pep's is absolutely bizarre. Win La Liga and / or the CL this season and anyone denying Zidane being the greatest manager La Liga has seen for the last 3 decades (at least) would just be deluding themselves and making a mockery of objective judgment.
He's a very good coach and I always defended him when he was going through bad patches, because I felt he had a very good football intuition to interpret the game strategy-wise (yes, strategy, not tactic) and obtain the end product while being ambitious and humble at the same time, which is one of the keys of success.
But at this point in time people should get relaxed with some of the plaudits, plaudits which are very influenced by the success in recent games, because nothing guarantees he will get any silverware at the end of the season.
In CL there are two squads with more depth and quality in PSG and Manchester City (at least quality at their peak), and in Chelsea they will face a side whose characteristics are a very bad match for Madrid's style, very physical and well organized with pacey players upfront who destroyed Atletico and Sevilla with enormous ease. Also, before quarters most people here were pointing at Madrid as the 6th or 7th best team remaining in the competition and I clearly remember all of PSG, City and Chelsea being ahead of them in the rankings.
In the league he will have to resort to subs and even academy players for some games. It's impossible to prioritize all the competitions equally with the current state of the squad.
So just imagine this possibility because it's very likely that it happens: Madrid going out in semis after a narrow result vs Chelsea and finishing 2nd in the league. And then we can speak about his merits with a slightly better perspective.
He said dominated Europe AND domestic, which is factual. 2 CL titles and two semi finals, 3 straight la Liga titles and one second place finish with 90 plus points. They have a better argument than the 3 peat team to be the GOAT club side because they won more total trophies and played better football. I know it’s tough to accept but please try
Facetious and beneath you. All the other cups require games that you have to play and win and it all adds up and takes a toll on the squad. This is why people think doubles, trebles and ‘sextuples’ are impressive. This is not difficult to comprehend.
Collapsed to second place and
91 points. Whereas Madrid collapsed to 3rd place and 76 points, their lowest league total in 10 years
If he wins either or both then that’s a great feather in his cap but it doesn’t necessarily make him the best manager La Liga has seen for the past three decades (or all time). You could make that argument.
But he has to win them first and he could very well win neither. What would he be then? Not the greatest manager la Liga has seen in the last 30 years? You’ve gotta make your mind up. If you think he’s the best, declare it now, don’t live in ‘ifs and buts’ land.
Also, if he’s got such a great ‘stomach’, why did he quit on Madrid in the first place? You’re being ridiculous now, come on.
Can't speak for anyone else, but this would still rank as a phenomenal achievement in my opinion. When you consider not just the squad but the injuries, it makes this position absolutely astounding. Real Madrid have (not validated, but this floats around everywhere) this season endured more injury-related absences than any club in the top-5 leagues in Europe over all the period for which data on this exists. Take the Liverpool tie. The Liverpool fans - and the scouser-dominated media - bleats on and on about them missing 2 CBs. Real missed 3 of the first-choice back 4, missed Vazquez (first-choice backup RB) on top of that and also missed Hazard (insert meme here). That's apart from other injuries as well. Ramos has been the beating heart of Madrid for so long - and missed 25 games this season. Hazard was supposed to bring in the creativity and has missed 30. Carvajal has missed 29.
For me, Zidane losing out on both CL and La Liga will not make a difference. In a lot of ways, I think he's dragged the team here through sheer force of will, man-management and making the whole a lot more than just the sum of the parts. In my own opinion, I struggle to think of a better manager (so far) in Madrid's history, apart from Miguel Munoz - but that's in a completely different era! I have had my doubts about Zidane, but I don't see anything changing based on results from here on unless of course, he does a Mourinho (and he's not the type) and just self-combusts and crashes and burns. As regards being considered among the pantheon of all-time greats, well, he's not got the body of work over time - and so no, he can't yet be rated there. That would take a decade or more of managing at the topmost level. But he's on track to be considered right up there with the very best.
Biased as I am, I think his achievements so far outstrip Pep's. Will that extend over their careers? Who knows? One can only comment on what is - not what will be.
Glad you admit bias, but how can the bolded part logically be true? Pep has 9 league titles with 3 teams in 3 different countries, Zidane has 2 league titles in one country with one team. So are you saying that Zidane’s achievements so far outstrip Pep’s because ZZ has 3 CL wins and Pep has 2?
If that’s the case, then do ZZ’s achievements so far outstrip Fergie’s because ZZ has 3 CL wins and Fergie has only 2? Ditto Jose Mourinho? I’m just trying to understand your reasoning.
Zidane at Real Madrid
3 full seasons (16/17,17/18,19/20) : 2 Ligas+2 CLs.
1 half season (15/16) : 1 CL + Won the most points in La Liga during his tenure from January until May (finished 1 point behind Barca)
Current season still going : shot at a double.
If he does the double he'd have 4 CLs+3 Ligas in 4 full seasons + one half season, definitely doesn't seem the fit the "poor in the league" narrative some people are trying to spread here.
3 full seasons (16/17,17/18,19/20) : 2 Ligas+2 CLs.
1 half season (15/16) : 1 CL + Won the most points in La Liga during his tenure from January until May (finished 1 point behind Barca)
Current season still going : shot at a double.
If he does the double he'd have 4 CLs+3 Ligas in 4 full seasons + one half season, definitely doesn't seem the fit the "poor in the league" narrative some people are trying to spread here.
Seriously enough, I can think of one million ideas better than comparing the career of a guy who's been coaching 4 or 5 years with Alex Ferguson's career.
Errr... It is logically true - because:
1. Total trophy count doesn't make sense and is clearly not what I was referring to (Pep's worked a lot longer); Zidane's achievements therefore should be seen against Pep's in a similar period of time
2. Zidane's overcome adversity and a team in a slump + the COVID-inflicted freeze - Pep has never faced any of these
3. Zidane's record vs Pep's? Look up the performance of Pep in CL knockout ties; go further and look at his record in away legs of such ties. Now compare and contrast with Zidane!
This time around Zidane inherited something Pep would never countenance (squad ageing, in a slump and then frozen because of COVID with additional sales forced upon him). Pep's Bundesliga titles with Barca are about as "plastic" as it gets! Similarly, in the PL as well, Pep inherited a team of world-class talent and owned by a country. His wins are (in my once again biased opinion) tainted by the clear and indisputable truth that City flouted all manner of FFP barriers to build the squad he has at his command. Zidane has had none of this.
Your point on Fergie is ridiculous. I specifically mentioned that he'd need to build a body of work over time to be considered in the pantheon of all-time greats (which Fergie is a - if not the - leading member of).
Yep! It's the classic "Let me just take the argument to a ridiculous extreme just to make a point".
the hyperbole in one of the weakest la liga of the last fifteen years is a bit much. It’s astounding how people are acting like he’s taking a squad worse than west brom’s to the top. He still has a very talented team, the best midfield in the world and some of the best players at their respective position. He is an amazing manager no one would deny that, but this season, as well as he’s done isn’t the one to worship him for if they win the league. This is the best time to manage a team in decline when your biggest rival is in crisis as well. Hell, I’d say Barca entered the season with a far bigger crisis than Madrid did.
If he wins CL I’ll say that’s the real feather in his cap, but to consider anything besides the league or CL Mickey Mouse when zidane has never won copa del rey (although obviously league and cl are better) is a bit much. He’s never had a domestic treble let alone sextuple. Pep’s teams will be talked about for decades to come whereas zidane’s Madrid will be met with some confusion as to how a team as poor as the 2018 one won CL. But credit to zidane, he is a maestro at CL especially and is now taking advantage of a dire la liga. But the hyperbole on this season is downright comical. I understand a lot more for CL even if Madrid are in the far easier side of the bracket but winning the league this year isn’t anything to put someone on a pedestal for. Even if Barca wins it, I’ll be happy for Koeman considering the shambles he inherited with the state of the team and Messi wanting to leave but I’ve said many many many times this is a terrible la liga this year in regards to quality. I’ve said when Barca were undefeated in the league this calendar year and I’ll say it again now.
But either way zidane has done a wonderful job this season, wouldn’t argue against that, just that the over the top gushing for a dire league right now is a bit much.
you guys will smash chelsea and win the league
Even if you do the first 4 years of Pep v the first 4 years of Zidane, Pep comes out ahead in virtually every metric. More trophies, more goals, better football, everything.
This is hilarious. You do realise he’s the manager of Real Madrid and not of Preston North End, right? He inherited his team the first time round, but it still cost probably about a billion. It’s one of the most expensively assembled squads in history. The second time round was the first real occasion when he had to do a bit of team building, but he’s been hit and miss with his transfers (like most managers, Pep certainly included).
However, it’s the same spine of key players as the first time round (Ramos, Casemiro, Modric, Kroos, Benzema), none of whom he bought, and none of whom he worked with in the B and youth teams in 2014-2016 (promoting from within, as Pep did. There isn’t a single Castilla player by my reckoning that followed ZZ to the first team in 2016-2018). He also didn’t buy the guy who contributed most to his early success, CR.
Also Pep never overcame adversity when he began his managerial career with one of the biggest clubs in the world that had fallen into the tank and whose main star had completely lost interest? Please.
Not sure why you’re bringing up Covid, that affected everyone. If you think going against peak Klopp Liverpool is the same as beating Setien’s crappy Barca to the title, then I don’t know what to tell you.
I don’t care about records in individual KO ties. Either you win the whole tie or the trophy or you don’t. But all of a sudden we’re now comparing the whole of Pep’s career in the CL vs Zidane’s 5 years?
I thought it was ‘obvious’ that we weren’t doing that?
By my count, Barca lost 3 KO games under Pep whilst going Champions/semi-finalists/champions/semi-finalists. With one of those losses, they won the overall tie. So I’m not sure what the big deal is here. If Zidane manages for another 10 years and gets knocked out early repeatedly, does that negate what he achieved between 2016 and 2018? Of course not.
He did inherit an ageing slumping squad, but I’ve already covered that. Also, the German titles are not plastic at all. Do the Juve managers get credit for their titles? So why not Pep? Plus his team played a fantastic brand of football. I know because I actually watched them play.
Also, ZZ ‘inherited’ that squad because he decided to quit in 2018 rather than sticking around for the rebuild in the first instance. You still haven’t answered my question re why he did that. I don’t suspect you will.
Again, your framing of Real Madrid as ‘the little engine that could’ is so funny that I don’t even know where to begin. Do you actually know anything about Real Madrid?
OK
La Liga was its weakest from 2009 to 2014, which is not too surprising given that a massive financial crisis severely affected the transfer budgets of every club that wasn't Real Madrid or Barcelona and turned everyone into impotent cannon fodder. A Barcelona with a dying manager got 100 points and a Real Madrid with no real midfield got 96.
Managers deserve credit for winning league titles or cups or whatever. But yes, the context has to be taken into account. Barcelona have won leagues and cups with almost every single manager they've appointed in the last 16 years. Bayern have won leagues and cups with every manager they've appointed since 2011.
Pep has outperformed those managers, but the floor clearly wasn't "not win the league title." It was much higher.
Pep has outperformed those managers, but the floor clearly wasn't "not win the league title." It was much higher.
It seems we are experiencing the rubber band effect I so enjoy seeing on here. Before Zidane was underestimated, now we are going crazy with the hyperbole, myself included, and as always the truth is somewhere in the middle. As far as Pep, I do think his titles at Bayern and City are a bit more 'plastic' than his other ones. Both managers have been put in excellent conditions, however I don't think anybody can deny that Zidane's current season was far more difficult to deal with than anything Pep did in his career as a manager. They're both at the same point in the Champion's League now, and Zidane has far more injuries and less depth to deal with. It may end up with nothing in the end, but the position they're in now shows more managerial abilities to me than anything I've seen from Pep. No one will remember that 10 years from now though unless Zidane actually wins something.
To be honest, I think the hyperbole is fed by the irritation of seeing blind Pep-worship. Pep is good - but somehow anything Zidane achieves is met with a "Ooooh! But Pep is better" kind of answer. It grates and obviously leads anyone with a functioning brain and/or Real Madrid sympathies/loyalties to react. Take the bolded part above. That part is mentioned by those that back Zidane, but is being contested - and I'm quite certain that it's being contested for the most part, by people who don't watch/track Real Madrid. Then you get told that Pep's having won the CdR and the Bundesliga mean he's great. That kind of stand and those kind of arguments lead to escalation of commitment...
Complete nonsense, with respect. I came into this thread to praise Zidane and this was a thread about Zidane. It was Pep-haters who insisted on bringing him up (this is a United forum after all) because they want Zidane to be thought of as better than Pep because he has one more CL title.
First of all, Pep is not just ‘good’, he’s one of the greatest managers of all time. People can talk about money, ease of task or whatever other nonsense they want to come out with, but it remains a fact. I say this without any bias, it’s based on what I’ve observed over the last 10 years. There’s no blind worship of anything.
Zidane will also go down as one of the greatest managers of all time, provided he maintains even a semblance of success in the remainder of his managerial career. Heck, even if he never wins another thing and quits tomorrow, he’s in the history ledger forever.
But if we’re pitting the 2 against eachother, then I think Pep had a far greater influence on football than Zidane. The things he popularised are not new but his impact on the European game across the board is undeniable. Plus, having watched both his Barca and Zidane’s Madrid extensively, I will always maintain that the former were a far superior team. At their best, they reached levels of performance that Madrid never got anywhere near in terms of football quality.
yes but either of those teams would sleepwalk through this league winning by 20+ points. Hell, the fact that an full blown crisis Barca is as close as they are and this is the worst Barca side since 2005 shows how bad la liga is.
great username by the way
for what it’s worth ( it that your comments were directed towards me) I actually think as good of a manager as Pep he has some flaws especially in CL post Barca where he overthinks it and his teams vastly underperform in that tourney (complete opposite or zidane) but I do think something has to be said for Pep’s Barca side that even humbled Fergie like no other. His chapter on that Barca side was a good read.
great take and I do agree what zidane is going through is harder than any pep season
You wouldn't be, despite your surging form in the 2nd half of the season, if Atletico didnt crash and burn spectaculary, and neither would RM tbh.
This wasn't supposed to be a race, but Atletico somehow made it one.
No one thinks he doesn’t have flaws. Every manager has flaws. I’ve pointed out many on this website. He swapped Eto’o and a bunch of money for Ibra. His teams often had defensive frailties prior to his year. He threw away money on numerous defenders with City. He may have pursued the false 9 thing to a detrimental degree. His man-management is often suspect re players that he doesn’t fancy etc etc
Fergie had flaws. Lippi had flaws. And (whisper it softly) Zidane has flaws. None of the bad things take away from their actual achievements, which is what we should focus on.
Re Zidane v Pep in the CL, let’s see what ZZ’s record is like after 12-13 years in the game, maybe with a different team (lots of rumours that he will walk away from Madrid after this season whatever the outcome). Then we can properly compare.
Someone who sees sense and not clouded by Pep's persona.
Didn't he walk away from the club?
Do please try to understand that no one has ever retained the CL in the CL era (not talking about EC), plenty of managers have won 3 league titles in a row.
Are we going to talk about the Scandal of Stamford Bridege again?
Then he left, ZZ left after an unprecedented CL 3-peat.
Because he's already achieved in 2.5 seasons which no manager in the history of human history has managed, win 3 CLs. Is it so hard to understand he could have felt an emptiness not felt by anyone ever?
Pep has spent over a billion to win 2 CLs (1 of which he didn't deserve, go google Ovebro)
That tie wasn't the injustice we remember it as. There were awful decisions going both ways.
How do you compare this season to Pep's first season at Barca?
the hyperbole in one of the weakest la liga of the last fifteen years is a bit much. It’s astounding how people are acting like he’s taking a squad worse than west brom’s to the top. He still has a very talented team, the best midfield in the world and some of the best players at their respective position. He is an amazing manager no one would deny that, but this season, as well as he’s done isn’t the one to worship him for if they win the league. This is the best time to manage a team in decline when your biggest rival is in crisis as well. Hell, I’d say Barca entered the season with a far bigger crisis than Madrid did.
If he wins CL I’ll say that’s the real feather in his cap, but to consider anything besides the league or CL Mickey Mouse when zidane has never won copa del rey (although obviously league and cl are better) is a bit much. He’s never had a domestic treble let alone sextuple. Pep’s teams will be talked about for decades to come whereas zidane’s Madrid will be met with some confusion as to how a team as poor as the 2018 one won CL. But credit to zidane, he is a maestro at CL especially and is now taking advantage of a dire la liga. But the hyperbole on this season is downright comical. I understand a lot more for CL even if Madrid are in the far easier side of the bracket but winning the league this year isn’t anything to put someone on a pedestal for. Even if Barca wins it, I’ll be happy for Koeman considering the shambles he inherited with the state of the team and Messi wanting to leave but I’ve said many many many times this is a terrible la liga this year in regards to quality. I’ve said when Barca were undefeated in the league this calendar year and I’ll say it again now.
But either way zidane has done a wonderful job this season, wouldn’t argue against that, just that the over the top gushing for a dire league right now is a bit much.
He was up against a Madrid side who have not made it past the CL last 16 for years and years? With an AM side not even mentioning, they finished 4th.
That game was the worst refereeing performance EVER EVER in top level European football, no one can deny that.
Hopefully they also smash the winner of El Gassico (Qatar FC, not Abu Dhabi FC) to win the CL.
Hala Madrid.
Pep did not outperform those managers, Jupp Heynckes won the Treble before handing the squad over to Pep who never even made a CL final with Bayern.
Getting trashed in SF after SF.
Not in the second leg - in the first yes Henry should have had a penalty. But arguing that Abidal shouldn't have been sent off when he kicked Anelka's foot into his standing leg is just silly, especially when Abidal should have already been off for trying to forcibly remove Drogba's shirt when the latter was through on goal.
For supposedly the greatest club side ever ever (TM), they shouldn't have needed the incompetence of Ovebro and a late late goal to progress against a Chelsea side who had 3 managers that season (Luiz Felipe Scolari, Ray Wilkins, Guus Hiddink)
So did Guardiola
Zidane came back in the hour of need, because he's both the hero we deserve and need
Correct if I'm not mistaken Zidane had rarely any big offers on the tables. I only remember links to Chelsea and United. I mean him returning because it was the best offer he had on table at the time is hardly anything to start singing his priases.
madrid needed lots of incompetence to go their way to win in 2016