Zinedine Zidane - 3 time CL winning manager without a job

[Hammondo]

We're talking about the current "philosophies"/approaches in football.

According to you, what kind of philosophies/ approaches should I describe there?

Something is not a philosophy or an approach.

And yes, none of the current top hyped philosophies or approaches would work for us with our current situation. So we need a pragmatic manager, who could have that something to win us things, like Zidane. You got that?

Tbh it starts to do my head talking to you.

What approaches you described were fine, thats not the issue.

The issue is " who could have that something to win us things" is vague nonsense. You are basically saying "we need someone with something I do not understand, and could not explain". Instead of recruiting a manager who does have something that we could explain through approach and tactics, and start building towards that.

This lineup is not capable of doing much, its built poorly and is out of date.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's about time we had our own Pep Guardiola is my idol.

Name a non bald top manager…

Conte = transplant
Pep = millennium dome
Klopp = transplant
Flick = phantom peak
Tuchel = grandad hair
Ten Haag = Pep Guardiola is my idol
Zidane = Pep Guardiola is my idol
Simeone = transplant

 

[amolbhatia50k]

My whole point is would you be so sure that Leicester or Leeds will play a similar football if their next manager is with a different mindset? Or is it possible for them to hire a manager with a different mindset once Rodgers and Bielsa leave?

But you can be pretty sure that Ajax or Barcelona would continue to play a similar style with their next manager. That's the difference I'm talking about.

Fair enough, but Barcelona don't play under the "Barcelona way" under Koeman and even under Valverde they were very different to their prior teams (many felt they were very Italian).

 

[OleGunnar20]

He'd do far better than Ole. No doubt about that in my mind.

As others have said - he'd be coming in to manage what we have, which is a largely top class squad. No rebuilding needed really.

I think there are better prospects out there, but whether we could attract them is another question.

 

[Strelok]

What approaches you described were fine, thats not the issue.

The issue is " who could have that something to win us things" is vague nonsense. You are basically saying "we need someone with something I do not understand, and could not explain". Instead of recruiting a manager who does have something that we could explain through approach and tactics, and start building towards that.

This lineup is not capable of doing much, its built poorly and is out of date.

No, I said we need someone who is pragmatic and tactically flexible enough to bring out the best of our squad. Because the current hyped philosophies clearly don't suit our current squad.

What you're trying to say is finding someone with a fixed philosophy according to the trend so you could have an idea what it is. Then start chopping and changing, and buying new players to make that work. Which would take another couple of years and another few hundred millions. But we'd follow the trend, you would understand what could be our approach and that might work. Correct?

P/s: if you or I could understand and explain that something then imo we should contact Ed asap. Last time I heard this United job paid millions

 

[JPRouve]

What approaches you described were fine, thats not the issue.

The issue is " who could have that something to win us things" is vague nonsense. You are basically saying "we need someone with something I do not understand, and could not explain". Instead of recruiting a manager who does have something that we could explain through approach and tactics, and start building towards that.

This lineup is not capable of doing much, its built poorly and is out of date.

I don't think that it is what @Strelok suggested, on one side he mentioned what people want and on the other side said that our current squad was a bad fit for people wishes. And those wishes aren't even a guarantee for success.

Playing a more balanced game where you can switch from heavy possession to counter attack depending on opponents, playing a relatively low block and using the pace of your attackers during transition is a winning formula when you have the players for it, that's how Zidane won more than Klopp in the last 6 years.

And there are other ways to play good football, the tactics that Klopp used with Dortmund between 2010-2012 were based on possession, Simeone doesn't base his tactics on possession, high block or full field pressing. Conte and Allegri have their own recipe.

 

[Strelok]

Fair enough, but Barcelona don't play under the "Barcelona way" under Koeman and even under Valverde they were very different to their prior teams (many felt they were very Italian).

That's exactly why I said what you wanted is not gonna work mate.

 

[RUCK4444]

I don't think that it is what @Strelok suggested, on one side he mentioned what people want and on the other side said that our current squad was a bad fit for people wishes. And those wishes aren't even a guarantee for success.

Playing a more balanced game where you can switch from heavy possession to counter attack depending on opponents, playing a relatively low block and using the pace of your attackers during transition is a winning formula when you have the players for it, that's how Zidane won more than Klopp in the last 6 years.

And there are other ways to play good football, the tactics that Klopp used with Dortmund between 2010-2012 were based on possession, Simeone doesn't base his tactics on possession, high block or full field pressing. Conte and Allegri have their own recipe.

Sounds like Ole

 

[Cloud7]

Weird to say of a 3x CL winner but his next job will define him, I think he'll flop wherever he goes, for me he's just Ancelotti with skinny jeans

There is something very, very warped about the view of United fans when a manager who has won Serie A, PL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 and three Champions League trophies as "Just Ancelotti"

What the hell do you people judge a manager based on?

 

[JPRouve]

Sounds like Ole

Not really. One is actually able to implement it and he is also able to make tactical changes during games that allow his team to turn a CL final. The issue with Ole isn't about how he thinks the team should play but the fact that after 3 years he hasn't been able to implement it and see the team master it.

 

[RUCK4444]

Not really. One is actually able to implement it and he is also able to make tactical changes during games that allow his team to turn a CL final. The issue with Ole isn't about how he thinks the team should play but the fact that after 3 years he hasn't been able to implement it and see the team master it.

Yeah he won a lot in fairness. Can't knock that.

Didn't things get really bad there before he left though (one or both times)?

 

[JPRouve]

Yeah he won a lot in fairness. Can't knock that.

Didn't things get really bad there before he left though (one or both times)?

He respectively won the CL and the league. So no, things didn't go really bad.

Edit: correction they finished 2nd last year and CL semi finalists.

 

[Hammondo]

No, I said we need someone who is pragmatic and tactically flexible enough to bring out the best of our squad. Because the current hyped philosophies clearly don't suit our current squad.

What you're trying to say is finding someone with a fixed philosophy according to the trend so you could have an idea what it is. Then start chopping and changing, and buying new players to make that work. Which would take another couple of years and another few hundred millions. But we'd follow the trend, you would understand what could be our approach and that might work. Correct?

P/s: if you or I could understand and explain that something then imo we should contact Ed asap. Last time I heard this United job paid millions

I am talking about using an approach which has been proven to work for a long time, over many teams, with different managers. The problem is that we compared to other clubs, change our managers with completely different philosophies, giving them a short period of time and thus needing to change the type of player we need with every manager. Unlike Chelsea, Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund, (and for a much shorter period of time) City, who have their direction already chosen and pick a manager who can continue it. One of the main reasons why clubs pick previous players (for better or for worse), is to continue that approach and develop on it. There is a very good chance Xavi is going to manage Barcelona at some point, and it is because hes continuing what Pep did, who is someone who continued what Cruyff brought.

There is no amount of pragmatic and tactically flexibility that can make this current team a success, it is wasted money either way. What is worse is that its come at a time when there are 3 very good teams in the PL. If the PL had weaker competition we might even win, but its not gonna happen with this lineup now.

 

[Strelok]

I am talking about using an approach which has been proven to work for a long time, over many teams, with different managers. The problem is that we compared to other clubs, change our managers with completely different philosophies, giving them a short period of time and thus needing to change the type of player we need with every manager. Unlike Chelsea, Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund, (and for a much shorter period of time) City, who have their direction already chosen and pick a manager who can continue it. One of the main reasons why clubs pick previous players (for better or for worse), is to continue that approach and develop on it. There is a very good chance Xavi is going to manage Barcelona at some point, and it is because hes continuing what Pep did, who is someone who continued what Cruyff brought.

There is no amount of pragmatic and tactically flexibility that can make this current team a success, it is wasted money either way. What is worse is that its come at a time when there are 3 very good teams in the PL. If the PL had weaker competition we might even win, but its not gonna happen with this lineup now.

Well we should agree to disagree then I think.

We have a fantastic young squad, now it's only to find someone who could take that squad to the next level without much chopping and changing. Tearing all that apart and spend another couple of years, another few hundred millions to follow the trend?

No thanks, I'd pass.

 

[Hammondo]

I don't think that it is what @Strelok suggested, on one side he mentioned what people want and on the other side said that our current squad was a bad fit for people wishes. And those wishes aren't even a guarantee for success.

Playing a more balanced game where you can switch from heavy possession to counter attack depending on opponents, playing a relatively low block and using the pace of your attackers during transition is a winning formula when you have the players for it, that's how Zidane won more than Klopp in the last 6 years.

And there are other ways to play good football, the tactics that Klopp used with Dortmund between 2010-2012 were based on possession, Simeone doesn't base his tactics on possession, high block or full field pressing. Conte and Allegri have their own recipe.

Flexibility comes at a cost, a certain amount of flexibility is very good and 100 percent necessary, being nothing but flexibility creates weaknesses. The other problem with what you are describing is that its tactically paper thin, and you are moving from one tactically paper thin approach to another. Zidane did not have to deal with what we do now. Simeone creates a very well organised defensive team, who are very good at stopping the opponents play, he has a clear approach.

 

[Hammondo]

Well we should agree to disagree then I think.

We have a fantastic young squad, now it's only to find someone who could take that squad to the next level without much chopping and changing. Tearing all that apart and spend another couple of years, another few hundred millions to follow the trend?

No thanks, I'd pass.

I don't think our squad is good, I think its a mess without any direction. Good players do not make a good squad.

 

[largelyworried]

I am talking about using an approach which has been proven to work for a long time, over many teams, with different managers. The problem is that we compared to other clubs, change our managers with completely different philosophies, giving them a short period of time and thus needing to change the type of player we need with every manager. Unlike Chelsea, Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund, (and for a much shorter period of time) City, who have their direction already chosen and pick a manager who can continue it. One of the main reasons why clubs pick previous players (for better or for worse), is to continue that approach and develop on it. There is a very good chance Xavi is going to manage Barcelona at some point, and it is because hes continuing what Pep did, who is someone who continued what Cruyff brought.

There is no amount of pragmatic and tactically flexibility that can make this current team a success, it is wasted money either way. What is worse is that its come at a time when there are 3 very good teams in the PL. If the PL had weaker competition we might even win, but its not gonna happen with this lineup now.

We definitely need to pick a manager with one eye on the future, same as when you build a team. The reality is that most of the up and coming coaches in world football seem to be from a similar mould - technical, aggressive press, looking to hog possession, tactically fluid and almost over coaching the players. Go with a manager from this school now and the next manager or two you end up with is going to be a steady transition. I don't think this the be all and end all, but its a factor. As excellent as Zidane is, I don't think there's a stream of ZIdane's waiting down the line to replace him.

 

[Strelok]

I don't think our squad is good, I think its a mess without any direction. Good players do not make a good squad.

Our squad is good mate. Bar one or two world class midfielders. Maybe an attacking RB.

Good players do make a good squad, maybe not a good team though. That's where the good manager come right in I think.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That's exactly why I said what you wanted is not gonna work mate.

Just get a quality coach in who plays that way first. Stop playing like a shambles of a collective. And as much as you can, you try to make each hiring as seamless as possible with the previous one.

 

[Hammondo]

We definitely need to pick a manager with one eye on the future, same as when you build a team. The reality is that most of the up and coming coaches in world football seem to be from a similar mould - technical, aggressive press, looking to hog possession, tactically fluid and almost over coaching the players. Go with a manager from this school now and the next manager or two you end up with is going to be a steady transition. I don't think this the be all and end all, but its a factor. As excellent as Zidane is, I don't think there's a stream of ZIdane's waiting down the line to replace him.

Imo this is why we are so far behind.

SAF left us with a hole that we have no real direction to build on, and that he did everything and was basically United all on his own. We needed to accept we needed to reevaluate and rethink how we do things. We were never going to get a long time mananger like SAF who did everything, thats now how football has worked in a long time. We need this direction and continuality.

 

[Hammondo]

Our squad is good mate. Bar one or two world class midfielders. Maybe an attacking RB.

Good players do make a good squad, maybe not a good team though. That's where the good manager come right in I think.

It simply is not, if you cannot make a good team out of it, its not a good squad. A squad is not about having good names on paper, its about having names on paper that make sense, are balanced, and can work together.

 

[RUCK4444]

He respectively won the CL and the league. So no, things didn't go really bad.

Edit: correction they finished 2nd last year and CL semi finalists.

Would he be your first choice?

Actually I'm not sure if you are Ole out, I assume you are?

 

[JPRouve]

Flexibility comes at a cost, a certain amount of flexibility is very good and 100 percent necessary, being nothing but flexibility creates weaknesses. The other problem with what you are describing is that its tactically paper thin, and you are moving from one tactically paper thin approach to another. Zidane did not have to deal with what we do now. Simeone creates a very well organised defensive team, who are very good at stopping the opponents play, he has a clear approach.

Dogmatism comes at a cost too, that's why Klopp and Guardiola combined have has much CL titles as Zidane in the last 10 years and with 2 league titles no one can actually claim that his approach doesn't work. Zidane also has a clear approach which is based on controlling tempo of the game, overcrowding the midfield and using the flanks, the difference being that he can organize his team in a multitude of ways in order to do it, it can be with or without heavy possession, with or without wingers.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

There is something very, very warped about the view of United fans when a manager who has won Serie A, PL, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 and three Champions League trophies as "Just Ancelotti"

What the hell do you people judge a manager based on?

The statement was of course facetious. He's been a fantastic manager, but he isn't anymore. Utd need a top coach not a manager imo.

 

[Strelok]

Just get a quality coach in who plays that way first. Stop playing like a shambles of a collective. And as much as you can, you try to make each hiring as seamless as possible with the previous one.

That I'd agree of course.

But as you see, the style basically changes per each manager for, basically all the clubs, even Barcelona.

If you want to maintain a certain style you gotta start at least from the top, to progressively hire managers with a similar style. But it's always easier said than done especially looking at how clueless our board is, football wise.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we go for Conte next. Who would bench or sell Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho. Then goes on to buy three new midfielders and play a 352 with Matic in the midfield and Ronaldo - Cavani up top.

 

[JPRouve]

Would he be your first choice?

Actually I'm not sure if you are Ole out, I assume you are?

I don't suscribe to Ole in or out and I don't have a first choice if Ole left. There are positives and negatives with all managers and my favorite manager, Klopp, isn't available.

 

[RUCK4444]

I don't suscribe to Ole in or out and I don't have a first choice if Ole left. There are positives and negatives with all managers and my favorite manager, Klopp, isn't available.

I'm the same on the bolded, although I can't bring myself to type his name or highlight it in your post

It's why I gravitate back to Ole as a safe pair of hands with our interests at heart until a prime candidate becomes available and so long as we don't entirely implode or go backwards.

 

[Strelok]

It simply is not, if you cannot make a good team out of it, its not a good squad. A squad is not about having good names on paper, its about having names on paper that make sense, are balanced, and can work together.

Again, by that you're talking about a team mate. You can try go into the Ole performance thread for example and tell people there that we don't have a good squad. You'll be surprised I guess

 

[the_cliff]

I'm basing my general opinion of how Zidane operates off various pieces I've read about his time at Madrid over the years.

For example, this podcast from the Athletic during his second spell

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The gist of which is:
- Not the most charismatic in the media.
- More or less a given not to ask him the type of tactical questions you might ask a Guardiola or even a Benitez. Tends to use stock answers about how hard the players worked, Madrid being the best club in the world, etc.
- Surrounded himself with people he worked with as a player.
- Zidane's style as a manager somehwere between his two Juve managers, Ancelotti and Lippi.
- Managed Ronaldo well.
- Flicked between using 4-3-3, diamond, etc.
- CL final v Juve typical of Madrid with Zidane as manager: first half system not really working, suddenly without any real logic Madrid manage to turn it around. In a lot of big games under Zidane difficult to find pure tactical reasons for why they were winning.
- Very settled side. Even in games where shape seems dodgy, relationship between players can get them through.
- Change when he came back for second spell was even greater focus on fitness and hard work, perhaps because squad was older.
- Defensive shift in second spell, as reflected in stats.

In terms of the bit you highlighted in bold, the idea that he isn't a systems coach but instead places greater emphasis on individuals and man-management has been very well covered in a lot of pieces over the years. For example this piece from Marca:



As for his coaching staff, my impression based on the commentary around his time at Madrid was that gave more authority to staff like Pintus (who was his coach at Juve) than Lopotegui did and who then instilled a more fitness-focused regime at the club, though tbf I could be wrong in terms of how much he delegated the day to day management of training sessions.

Regardless, my general point was that Madrid under Zidane (whether he was handling the coaching or not) weren't a system or coaching-orientated side but rather one that employed simple systems and tactics and instead focused on bringing the best out of individuals. Which is fine, just not what I personally want. Using the terms of the quote from the Marca article above, I want a manager who is following the dominant trend in modern coaching.

He's won 3 of the last 6 UCLs (he's only managed in 4 ucl campaigns). You can make an argument his is the more dominant trend in modern coaching.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That I'd agree of course.

But as you see, the style basically changes per each manager for, basically all the clubs, even Barcelona.

If you want to maintain a certain style you gotta start at least from the top, to progressively hire managers with a similar style. But it's always easier said than done especially looking at how clueless our board is, football wise.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we go for Conte next. Who would bench or sell Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood, Sancho. Then goes on to buy three new midfielders and play a 352 with Matic in the midfield and Ronaldo - Cavani up top.

That's what I am saying. Of course if you hire Jose and then hire Pep you can't get a smooth transition no matter what. It's all up the direction from the top. To pick the right managers who are good enough and suit the overall plan. And I agree - I have no faith in us getting these appointments right, we're awful at them.

 

[Hammondo]

Again, by that you're talking about a team mate. You can try go into the Ole performance thread for example and tell people there that we don't have a good squad. You'll be surprised I guess

I have read multiple people saying our squad is not that good or really overrated.

 

[the_cliff]

Personally Zidane would be first choice for me with Conte a close second. Fans complain that they don't want proven winners as managers and want an unproven manager then complain when it goes south. Only issue I have with both managers is I don't see where Bruno fits in. Both managers prefer midfield stability and so won't be part of their 3 man midfields.

 

[Strelok]

I have read multiple people saying our squad is not that good or really overrated.

Maybe a bit overrated that I'd agree. But we do have a fantastic squad mate. Especially attacking wise. The only real issue is the midfield.

You can easily see this by trying to name the better squads than ours in Europe I think.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Imagine putting “just” before Ancelotti.

Yeah hilarious. One of the greatest managers of all time.

 

[RedBanker]

Media chatter is intensifying. Best thing about the week so far!.

 

[RUCK4444]

Media chatter is intensifying. Best thing about the week so far!.

Is it? I've not seen anything, even this thread hasn't even bothered to provide the apparent link to Romano I believe?

 

[largelyworried]

He's won 3 of the last 6 UCLs (he's only managed in 4 ucl campaigns). You can make an argument his is the more dominant trend in modern coaching.

You can argue anything if you really try. Doesn't mean it'll stand up to scrutiny.

 

[LoneStar]

Can some Real Madrid fan please highlight on how he likes to setup teams? What are his biggest strenghts and also weaknesses etc?

At RM he had a very strong midfield, which we severely lack. Also where would Bruno fit into his setup?

 

[RedBanker]

Is it? I've not seen anything, even this thread hasn't even bothered to provide the apparent link to Romano I believe?

Yes. I am feeding off the scraps from Romano.

 

[Hammondo]

Maybe a bit overrated that I'd agree. But we do have a fantastic squad mate. Especially attacking wise. The only real issue is the midfield.

You can easily see this by trying to name the better squads than ours in Europe I think.

The PL has 3 alone.