Zona Mista

  • Thread starter Deleted member 101472
  • Start date

Deleted member 101472

Guest
popularised by platin's juventus side, I think we have the personnel to make this work.

On the right, you need someone who understand the role of a right winger and a right back and Valencia epitomises that. You need a solid ball playing sweeper, which Lindelof COULD end up being (plus the protection he'd get from Rojo and Bailey would be ideal) and Luke shaw might never prove this but he is capable of dominating a flank IMO. The midfield picks itself, and mkhitaryan in his number 10 role that's probably his most effective.

Thoughts?

 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,023
Location
Moscow
It's not really different from what Jose plays when he uses 3-men defence.
And it's not a zona mista anyway, or a very bad one as Pogba/Micky aren't suited to the roles they would play

 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,806
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
It's a nice thought experiment but the likes of Shaw/Lindelof/Mikhitaryan are so far below their counterparts in that Juve side (Cabrini/Scirea/Platini) that it seems pointless unless they were to show signs of some quantum leap in performance level.

EDIT: Mikhi would be Boniek and Pogba would be in the Platini role I guess, but the point still stands.
 
Last edited:

arthurka

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
18,732
Location
Rectum
The only Zona I know is the twilight one.. Welcome to the Twilight Zona.
I'll get my coat..
 

Deleted member 101472

Guest
In what way is it effective?
It's a lot to do with interchanging on the pitch, that when one player ends up out of position there's someone there to cover it, particularly defensively. When the ball is on one side, say valencias, the left back isn't TOO adventurous, then say there's a quick turnover in possession and a counter attack leaving Valencia exposed, the RCB moves to cover the space left by Valencia and the sweeper steps forward to form a two man centre back partnership, with the left back able to get into position quicker since he didn't commit as much.

Obviously the side isn't as capable as the juventus one (particularly in defence) but a lot of the players definitely have the characteristics of that formation.

I am in no way comparing mkhitaryan to platini FWIW.

Edit: or pogba for that matter
 

SwansonsTache

incontinent sexual deviant & German sausage lover
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
15,563
Location
Norway
At first I thought this was about some unknown Spanish or Italian transfer target with a hip name.
 

ayushreddevil9

Foootball hinders the adrenaline of transfers.
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
10,277
It's a lot to do with interchanging on the pitch, that when one player ends up out of position there's someone there to cover it, particularly defensively. When the ball is on one side, say valencias, the left back isn't TOO adventurous, then say there's a quick turnover in possession and a counter attack leaving Valencia exposed, the RCB moves to cover the space left by Valencia and the sweeper steps forward to form a two man centre back partnership, with the left back able to get into position quicker since he didn't commit as much.

Obviously the side isn't as capable as the juventus one (particularly in defence) but a lot of the players definitely have the characteristics of that formation.

I am in no way comparing mkhitaryan to platini FWIW.

Edit: or pogba for that matter
Isnt this more like the Dutch philosophy of 'Total Football'? It also emphasizes on the interchangeability part. This would surely make the team well drilled as defensive unit but not really sure about the attacking part.

From what I have observed in recent years, the position where the skill set has rapidly evolved is the full back. The presence of two more players during a build up 'and' who are good enough to whip quality crosses in creates a nightmare even for the sturdiest defences. Bayern of 12/13, Real Madrid, Barca of 2011 and now even the spurs side. We need that attacking left back more than a left winger.

Secondly I doubt we have the players who have a very good understanding of positional play, this formation could have worked under LvG who focussed mainly on ball retention and keeping team in shape during defending.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Penna

Deleted member 101472

Guest
Isnt this more like the Dutch philosophy of 'Total Football'? It also emphasizes on the interchangeability part. This would surely make the team well drilled as defensive unit but not really sure about the attacking part.

From what I have observed in recent years, the position where the skill set has rapidly evolved is the full back. The presence of two more players during a build up 'and' who are good enough to whip quality crosses in creates a nightmare even for the sturdiest defences. Bayern of 12/13, Real Madrid, Barca of 2011 and now even the spurs side.

Secondly I doubt we have the players who have a very good understanding of positional play, this formation could have worked under LvG who focussed mainly on ball retention and keeping team in shape during defending.
The total football idea was that almost anyone could go anywhere at any point, when in possession. With zona mista it's less likely that several players will end up out of position, just that when they do they'll be covered. Total football was more about freedom of expression whereas zona mista was about discipline.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,239
popularised by platin's juventus side, I think we have the personnel to make this work.

On the right, you need someone who understand the role of a right winger and a right back and Valencia epitomises that. You need a solid ball playing sweeper, which Lindelof COULD end up being (plus the protection he'd get from Rojo and Bailey would be ideal) and Luke shaw might never prove this but he is capable of dominating a flank IMO. The midfield picks itself, and mkhitaryan in his number 10 role that's probably his most effective.

Thoughts?

It's an interesting proposition, however, Italy and Juve had one-man flank Cabrini on the left, who was a great threat going forward, with a cracking cross on him. Likewise Conti on the right for Italy, with his trickery and industry. As solid as Shaw and Valencia are, with the requisite dynamism and industry, they do lack that bit of edge on the offensive front which will only be exacerbated without support from the flanks - be it a winger or an inside-forward. Likewise, Lindelof is still settling in and does look a wee bit shaky and passive on the ball as of now. In time I hope he matures into a fine ball-playing defender but imposing such a critical and a demanding role on him could prove to be too much for him to handle. Even in the match against Real, we utilised Lindelof as the RCB with Darmian tucked in on the left and Smalling as the central defender. Perhaps Bailly or Smalling as the CB in your proposed set-up, with Darmian as the RCB could be relatively better, as of now.

It would be interesting to see Mkhitaryan in such a free role, however we would potentially be under-utilising our forwards - Mata, Rashford, Martial, with only one spot potentially up for grabs. Rashford and Martial could play up top but in such a set-up I can't see them at their best.

As far as my preferred set-up goes (changes by the minute), I'd go with a 4-3-3 with a forward trio of Martial-Lukaku-Mata, with a midfield trio of Pogba-Herrera-Matic and a back 4 of Shaw-Rojo-Bailly-Valencia.

There are question marks over Shaw but I sincerely hope he fulfills his potential and finally establishes him in the first team. He's definitely got time on his side though and has been rather unlucky with injuries. I do think his pace and dynamism down the left flank could really help us bounds as we've more often than not seen Martial being doubled up on and being asked to do too much. During LVG's last season, Shaw provided great support for Depay with his marauding runs down the left (although his service was lacking a wee bit, definitely still has got some way to go on that front), till that disastrous injury struck.

Likewise, we've seen some really promising combinations and inter-plays from the Valencia-Herrera-Mata trio in the past (during that run during LVG's first season, including Juanfield iirc), and as much as I like Mkhitaryan we do need a more consistent and reliable forward, and Mata could potentially be that ideal counter-balance. Esp with that midfield trio to link up with. Likewise, a lot hinges on Martial, if given the chance, and Pogba as the most advanced midfielder but yeah I'd say this is potentially our best set-up.
 

ayushreddevil9

Foootball hinders the adrenaline of transfers.
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
10,277
The total football idea was that almost anyone could go anywhere at any point, when in possession. With zona mista it's less likely that several players will end up out of position, just that when they do they'll be covered. Total football was more about freedom of expression whereas zona mista was about discipline.
Yeah that's total football. I do believe that we are very well drilled on the discipline part. We were rarely outplayed by a team last season (bar some early games). If zona mista helps us improve our attacking prowess, then it's an interesting proposition.
 

Minimalist

New Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
15,091
popularised by platin's juventus side, I think we have the personnel to make this work.

On the right, you need someone who understand the role of a right winger and a right back and Valencia epitomises that. You need a solid ball playing sweeper, which Lindelof COULD end up being (plus the protection he'd get from Rojo and Bailey would be ideal) and Luke shaw might never prove this but he is capable of dominating a flank IMO. The midfield picks itself, and mkhitaryan in his number 10 role that's probably his most effective.

Thoughts?

That looks a poor use of our players. Shaw hasn't demonstrated much in terms of attack/support for a long time and Valencia (while a machine) is predictable as hell.

In short, I don't think we have the players to rely on full backs giving us impact from wide.

At very least we need Martial/Rashford on the left until we get genuine wide players or proper attacking full backs.
 

Deleted member 101472

Guest
That looks a poor use of our players. Shaw hasn't demonstrated much in terms of attack/support for a long time and Valencia (while a machine) is predictable as hell.

In short, I don't think we have the players to rely on full backs giving us impact from wide.

At very least we need Martial/Rashford on the left until we get genuine wide players or proper attacking full backs.
Of course, it's based on players playing at perceived potential. We are still in such a transitional trial and error phase that it's almost worth a go, when everyone's available of course.
 

IhabX7

Full Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
6,009
----------------DDG---------------
Valencia--Bailly-Lindelof--Darmian (pref. new LB)
----------Matic----Pogba----------
Rashford (Mata)--Mkhitarian--Martial
---------------Lukaku-------------
 

Yagami

Good post resistant
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
13,496
I still think we should go the way of Barcelona last year when we use our 3 at the back system. With the players we have, I reckon it'd be best suited for us.

De Gea
Bailly Jones Darmian
Matic
Valencia Herrera Pogba Martial
Mata
Lukaku​

Bally, Jones, Darmian and Matic form a square of sorts with Jones as our CB, Matic as our deep midfielder and Bailly and Darmian moving out wide as sort of full backs. Valencia and Martial as our wide players, with a diamond of sorts with Matic, Herrera, Pogba and Mata all linking up, and Lukaku leading the line.
De Gea
Valencia Bailly Jones Darmian
Matic
Mata Herrera Pogba Martial
Lukaku​

When we need to defend, we can revert to a back four with Valencia coming back as our RB and Mata replacing him on the right to create a narrow midfield (like we played against Swansea last year in a good performance) that keeps us solid. Martial, like Neymar in Barca's system, won't come back as a LWB/LB - rather he'd stay further outfield remaining an attacking threat on the break.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time - Vaccination status: dozed off
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
95,662
Location
india
Where will the goals come from? Pogba and Mkhitarian are not prolific. Valencia and Shaw offer little proper attacking threat. All these wingback formations look different and all that, but it only works if the attacking three are capable of goals. You need a support striker along with lukaku to have enough going forward.
 

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
29,469
To be fair we have been using a variant of it ever since Jose arrived in the sense that Darmian is your Bergomi or Gentile figure tucked in and Valencia is our Carbrini.. and then we use our left winger as the Contiesque dribbler on the flank to provide width.

It hasn't worked at all because in the modern game it's too predictable to try to attack like that's especially over the course of an entire domestic campaign and secondly none of our players are of the class of that Juve side so they don't have the ability to convert a very defensive formation into a balanced performance on the pitch.

Perhaps put formation in brackets in the title for some of our more Unenlightened friends.
 

Devil1

BRANDED: Part Time dipper supporter
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
777
Location
UK
This is essentially swapping an attacking player for an extra defensive player- no thanks- we don't score enough as it stands!
 

djdhrubs

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
1,851
This is essentially swapping an attacking player for an extra defensive player- no thanks- we don't score enough as it stands!
This is what I thought. I looked at the formation and thought, have we lost all our attackers down the back of the sofa?
 

P-Nut

fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
21,641
Location
Oldham, Greater Manchester
The amount of people that don't know what zona mista is will send some of the draft junkies over the edge.

Also, the amount of people that have disregarded it straight off the bat without realising it's essentially how we set up against Real.

Formations only tell half the story and whilst the personnel in the super cup would have suggested a 433/4231 it played out much more like the zona mista you see above. Any time Lingard plays on the left, I think we'll see this formation/tactic employed, when out of possession that is.

As for whether or not I think it would work for us? No, we don't have the lwb/LM hybrid. Also none of our #10s are prolific enough for it to work. And until Lindelof settles in only Blind could play the playmaker role effectively and him in the middle of a back 3 screams problems.

I think we should go for a narrow 433 personally.

DDG
Valencia Bailly Jones Darmian (Shaw when he returns)
Matic
Herrera Pogba
Rashford/Mkhi Martial
Lukaku

Valencia could provide width on the right with Pogba doing the same on the left until we get a better lb or Shaw ups his game.

The wingers in my formation would both be tucked in and playing just off of Lukaku.