Managers Blame

ukbob

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Ok, everybody is blaming everybody for the defeat to Bayern last night. Lets face it the simple truth is for once Fergie has to take the blame.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think he is one of the greatest managers ever. He has bought us success we only ever dreamed about years ago, well to us old uns anyway.
He should have taken Rooney off the minute he started limping, in effect we were then down to ten men and Rooneys contribution was as a spectator. The Bayern players went after him and his ankle. They are professional players and know how to do it as I knew they would, FFS I would do the same, thats the way the game is these days with so much at stake and anybody believing otherwise has no idea about football.
We should have continued to put pressure on them when they had the ball the same as basically for most of the first half. We just gave them complete control of the midfield and they did what they like. Van Gal is a very shrewd manager and he was in complete control of himself even when they were three down.
Tye ref gave in to player power in sending Rafael off. He should have given a yellow to all of those waving an imaginary card and given Rafael a stern warning. I am not saying that because I am a United supporter but it is one aspect of the game that is abhorrent. One professional player trying to get a fellow professional player sent off.
Sorry SAF but I think you got it wrong especially in trying to appease Rooney and then applying the wrong tactics and that is what it was, not the players.
 

Domzi

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The sending off was what changed the game, not Fergie's tactics.
The only way he could've controlled this would have been to take off one of our best players from the first half which doesn't really seem logical.
 

Raoul

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I agree. Good post Bob. Allowing Rooney to hobble around indefinitely just because he gave a thumbs up was very unFergie like.
 

Zebs

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To be honest, there's no difference between players going after Rooney's ankle and players waving imaginary cards to get players sent off. They're both despicable actions but actions which have become part of the game we love so much.

I do agree Fergie should have made different decisions but this is all in hindsight. If Robben had slightly mishit that volley we'd all be praising his decisions. That's the fine line that exists in football and the reason why I'm not laying the blame on anyone. They gave their all out there, including Fergie and it just wasn't meant to be.

We saw stellar performances from many of our young players. Nani, Rafael and Gibson. I for one am excited about next season. If those three along with Macheda and Welbeck continue to improve I've no doubt that we'll be back fighting on all fronts once again next season.

I trust SAF to be here to build his final team over the next 2 seasons.
 

BAMSOLA

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Yeah as already said tactically he got it wrong as we should have been able to comfortably sweep Bayern aside and would have done but for some key tactical mistakes by SAF.

Everyone fecks up at some point even the greatest manager in our history.
 

Plechazunga

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The man's a legend but the last week's been one of his poorest.

It was a terrible team selection against Chelsea, especially playing all three of Giggs, Scholes and Gaz against one of the fittest and most physical sides around. We handed over the impetus for the title with barely a whimper.

There were at least two and possibly four bad decisions last night, discussed in the other threads.

Cue lots of comments about how he's the most successful manager ever and I'm some gimp. True but irrelevant, he's never been infallible.

cold-zebra said:
If Robben had slightly mishit that volley we'd all be praising his decisions.
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Unlikely, it looked inevitable that they'd score, it was just wave after wave of attacks with no respite.
 

Striker10

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Plechazunga said:
The man's a legend but the last week's been one of his poorest.

It was a terrible team selection against Chelsea, especially playing all three of Giggs, Scholes and Gaz against one of the fittest and most physical sides around. We handed over the impetus for the title with barely a whimper.

There were at least two and possibly four bad decisions last night, discussed in the other threads.

Cue lots of comments about how he's the most successful manager ever and I'm some gimp. True but irrelevant, he's never been infallible.



Unlikely, it looked inevitable that they'd score, it was just wave after wave of attacks with no respite.
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like barca in 08 ;)
 

Scholesgoals

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i thought that while he wasnt moving completely freely, he was still dangerous and able to play. remember that cross field ball to valencia?
 

ukbob

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Domzi said:
The sending off was what changed the game, not Fergie's tactics.
The only way he could've controlled this would have been to take off one of our best players from the first half which doesn't really seem logical.
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That is utter bollocks. The game had already changed before the sending off.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Striker10 said:
like barca in 08 ;)
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Indeed.

Robben's volley aside, if Nani had finished off the move which ended with him swooning before taking corner, Fergie's decision to use his pace and energy as a loan striker (Ronaldo Mark II) would have been hailed as a masterstroke, almost certainly crushed the German resistance (always wanted to say that) and everything would be hunky dory.

Instead he's getting crucified for playing a "450" formation.

Fine margins, as always.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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Plechazunga said:
The man's a legend but the last week's been one of his poorest.

It was a terrible team selection against Chelsea, especially playing all three of Giggs, Scholes and Gaz against one of the fittest and most physical sides around. We handed over the impetus for the title with barely a whimper.

There were at least two and possibly four bad decisions last night, discussed in the other threads.

Cue lots of comments about how he's the most successful manager ever and I'm some gimp. True but irrelevant, he's never been infallible.



Unlikely, it looked inevitable that they'd score, it was just wave after wave of attacks with no respite.
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In fairness to Fergie he clearly selected the team v Chelsea with yesterday's match in mind. We all know he wants another CL title more than 19 league titles.
 

Pogue Mahone

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ukbob said:
That is utter bollocks. The game had already changed before the sending off.
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Yes. When Rooney hurt his ankle.

He refused to come off though and insisted he was ok to continue, which meant we were effectively a man down long before Rafael walked.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think the red card affected the result, by the way.
 

Plechazunga

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Dr. Dwayne said:
In fairness to Fergie he clearly selected the team v Chelsea with yesterday's match in mind. We all know he wants another CL title more than 19 league titles.
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Does he?

Pogue Mahone said:
Yes. When Rooney hurt his ankle.

He refused to come off though and insisted he was ok to continue, which meant we were effectively a man down long before Rafael walked.
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Unless the manager had taken the responsible decision and brought the player off.

Pogue Mahone said:
Against Barca we never went a man down.
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As I just said.
 

kps88

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I honestly don't think Fergie got anything wrong.

The form Berba has showed recently proved to me a half fit Rooney has more of an influence than him. Taking Rooney off would have given Bayern a huge boost. Even when he wasn't at his most mobile he could take off when he wanted to, the lung busting run he made when Rafael broke free proved this.

As far as Rafael goes, he was brilliant in the first half against Ribery. Would have been terribly unfair on the lad to take him off at HT, having said that I'm sure he would have come off on the hour.
 

Domzi

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ukbob said:
That is utter bollocks. The game had already changed before the sending off.
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We were still creating chance after chance with 11 men. Rooney started limping on around 20 minutes and we still scored another goal.

When rafael was sent off we were down to 10 men and we looked so much more vulnerable to their attack, to the point where another goal became inevitable.

If Fergie has no trust in his players then there is a problem. If Rooney says he is Ok then surely Fergie should trust him up to a certain point, ie up until he was subbed off?
 

Pogue Mahone

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Plechazunga said:
Unless the manager had taken the responsible decision and brought the player off.
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Alternatively, he could have done what all managers do and trust that a player who says he is ok to continue is actually ok to continue.

Honestly, Plech, I don't know what's come over you since last night. You're saying that we should sub off every frequently booked player immediately after their first yellow and now we're supposed to sub off any important player who gets a knock, whether or not they say they're ok to continue?
 

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I wish he got his tactics wrong every week if it means racing out to a 3-0 lead against one of the best sides in Europe

Individual players made mistakes in the end, and you can't always legislate for that. Carrick was brushed off far too easily for their goal just before half time, and Rafael was naive in pulling back his man when already on a yellow. Thereafter Bayern are always heavy favourites to progress with so long left to play

I think looking at the reactions - and I know it's still raw - but they've been a bit crass and classly really. The only thing I think Fergie got badly wrong was leaving Rooney out there after half time. But in the end would it have made a difference? Who knows
 

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Sir Alex make good and not so good decisions all the time. He is just a human. That said, I do not agree the failure of advancing in the CL and the loss against Chelsea is his fault all-together. True, the subtitute-decisions in the second half in Germany was not the best, but those elleven out there have a brain of their own too. What Evra decided not to do gave the Germans tree points instead of a draw. In the second leg we got a very poor referee-decision against us. We coped less than well with it, and yet again I am not sure the Manager is to blame for how the players responded to Bayern Munich's pressure. It could be that it was Sir Alex' decision to back down so far into defense, and if so then yes he is to blame, but it could also be that the team did so on their own account. In any case, our team made the most individual and tactical errors over the span of two games in CL. Some were down to poor decisions from Sir Alex, but far more were made on the very pitch. When it comes to the game against Chelsea we were beaten, end of. We have become far too dependant on one single player, and pay the price when he is absent. We should have invested in more quality-players last summer, and hopefully he didn't speak in all honesty when he said there would be no major new signings this coming summer either.

We sure need more quality to beat the best.
 

Rowem

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I dunno if Berbs would have done a whole lot more as the lone front man than an injured Rooney. I wish SAF had a bit more confidence in Macheda to throw him on and keep that energy in the side, but then SAF knows a lot more about bringing through young players than me. He clearly wanted to give Rooney until the hour mark or so...but Rafael scuppered that by getting sent off. With 11 men on the pitch and Rooney coming off with 30 minutes to go, we would have won. There's no doubt about that! I agree that the game had already started to change with Rooney's injury (he wasn't pressing their defenders, wasn't chasing loose balls) but remember he got injured at 2-0. We still went and made it 3-0 with him on the pitch - Bayern defenders marking him and leaving Nani open. It was defensive mistakes that cost us yesterday - and Ferguson can not be blamed for that imo.

Starting Gibson was a masterstroke. Rafael was a good decision too, but he didn't repay Ferguson. Playing Nani through the middle with 10 men was effective. The comments at the end were controversial but harmless. Mixed night for Ferguson.
 

Red Defence

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Was surprised that he left Rooney on when he was obviously struggling to run but that was only really evident after Rafa had been sent off.

He would most likely have subbed Rooney soon into the second half, but whatever tactical substitutions Fergie had possibly planned would have gone down the drain immediately Rafa was sent off.

No blame to anyone in my mind. Just an unfortunate turn of events.
 

Ole's_toe_poke

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Even with 10 we had some great chances. If Nani or Carrick would've scored we'd be hailing SAF as a genius for putting Nani upfront.
 

gaffs

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Pogue Mahone said:
Yes. When Rooney hurt his ankle.

He refused to come off though and insisted he was ok to continue, which meant we were effectively a man down long before Rafael walked.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think the red card affected the result, by the way.
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Fergie should have brought Rooney off, but his options were limited.
 

Devilton

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Fergie did everything right...except keep Rooney on after he took his first knock.

I was worried he had rushed Rooney back too soon, and although we were incredible in the first half, Rooney wasn't the reason we were up by 3 goals. At around 22 minutes when we were already leading by 2 and Rooney started to hobble we should have taken him off and got Berbatov or Macheda on.

I personally don't think Berbatov has the trust of fergie to do the job in a 451, and I don't blame Fergie. He's not fast enough, doesn't impose himself on defenders or shoot enough to warrant that faith.

I don't blame Fergie for keeping Rooney on, because like him I feel even an injured 50% rooney is better then a 100% fit Berbatov. Especially in big game. But who knows...had he taken off Rooney maybe the result would have been different. As it is though, we didn't lose because of Fergie's tactics. We lost because of 3 moments of madness. The two goals and Rafaels yellow cards.
 

Livvie

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Whatever the rights and wrongs of last night, Fergie has been lauded - rightly so - as possibly the greatest manager ever.

But by the same token, if a man gets credit for success, he must also take a proportion of the blame for defeat.
 

gulli_G

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sometimes fergie's too nice prior to big games nowadays, we need a bit of mourinhio controversy before these types of games, fight fire with fire i say, german's dirty tactics, needed a simialr response
 

Pogue Mahone

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Livvie said:
Whatever the rights and wrongs of last night, Fergie has been lauded - rightly so - as possibly the greatest manager ever.

But by the same token, if a man gets credit for success, he must also take a proportion of the blame for defeat.
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Hmmm... Not sure it works that way.

I figured that great success earns someone the benefit of any doubt, rather than forensic and exhaustive criticism of every decision he made the moment we suffer a couple of bad results?
 

Plechazunga

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Pogue Mahone said:
Alternatively, he could have done what all managers do and trust that a player who says he is ok to continue is actually ok to continue.

Honestly, Plech, I don't know what's come over you since last night. You're saying that we should sub off every frequently booked player immediately after their first yellow and now we're supposed to sub off any important player who gets a knock, whether or not they say they're ok to continue?
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The Rafael one is arguable I admit. Personally I'd have taken him off at half time, but it is a hard one.

I certainly wouldn't take Rooney's opinion on his own fitness, no. If it was Rio Ferdinand or Michael Carrick or most of our players, I probably would. But with Rooney it's just obvious he's desperate to play. He's matured a lot in the last couple of years but I don't know if he can ever change that.

Notice that he never told the bench he couldn't continue. it took Evra to do that. Does that mean Fergie should have ignored him and played him on until he himself put the thumbs down?

Playing him at all was a gamble - and one which his positive effect in that match doesn't necessarily vindicate. Keeping him on after the injury recurred was really reckless. As for bringing him back on in the second half...

ludvik said:
Sir Alex make good and not so good decisions all the time. He is just a human. That said, I do not agree the failure of advancing in the CL and the loss against Chelsea is his fault all-together.
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I don't think anyone's saying it's anything like entirely his fault. I'd put something like Rafael, Fergie, Carrick as a top three.
 
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