Midfield and Tactical Traditions.

Pexbo

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If I was to ask you to sum up United as a club in terms of tactics, you'd say two things wouldn't you? 4-4-2 and Wingers.

As a club we've always been blessed with great wingers, Meredith, Spence, Best, Coppell are names that spring up from the past and in the Ferguson era and it becomes very obvious how he likes his wingers you have the likes of Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Beckham and Ronaldo and more recently Nani, Young and Valencia.

When you have that quality of Winger at your dispense, your tactics are dictated as such, or you are dictating your tactics as such.

United, rightly in my opinion have played 4-4-2 in all but the biggest and European games. Even in those games when at Old Trafford we have sometimes still favoured it.

It allows two strikers to work as a partnership, two midfielders to work as a partnership and two wingers to stretch the play and be the focus of our distribution. The midfielders role is actually very limited in terms of play. It's why Scholes in his latter years and Carrick now excel, it asks for limited mobility, limited creativity and limited defensive play. Their role is to distribute and contain which is something both are up there with the best in the world at doing. I'd argue that Scholes was the best in the world at it around 06-08 and he isn't far off now.

So what is the problem with this? Well we've seen it against any team that looks to press our midfield, it's like having a tap attached to a lawn full of sprinklers. Some teams run around madly trying to stop one sprinkler and in doing so it just makes another sprinkler spray out more water, they run to that sprinkler and the other one becomes more effective again. Some teams walk up to the tap and turn it down, or sometimes off. The sprinklers aren't getting much water out now. In simple terms, strangle our midfield and it doesn't matter how talented Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia or Young are on the ball if they aren't seeing the ball.

Newcastle did it, Ajax did it to an extent, Bilbao did it brilliantly, Wigan did too and City did it brilliantly on Monday night.


What worries me is that Ferguson isn't looking for a remedy to this, he's just looking to make us better at it. If reports are to be believed rather than looking for natural centre midfielders who are comfortable on the ball and comfortable creating or defending we are looking at the likes of Hazard and Guitan, players who will again rely on the source of that Tap in order to play their game.

Ferguson knows that with our 4-4-2 being played in the majority of our 60 game season, say 50 and 10 with a 3 man midfield that leaves just 130 starts to be spread out between:

Carrick, Scholes, Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs, possibly Fletcher and possibly Pogba next season.

Spread evenly that would be 18 starts each. When Carrick is going to start 40 of them, you can start to see why he thinks £30m and wages on a top Midfielder isn't "Value".

It's a conundrum though as not only is 4-4-2 and wingers ingrained in this clubs blood it also makes it very difficult to change your midfield supply.

Change it in any way and you upset the balance, bring in an attacking midfielder to provide some creativity in the way a player like Silva does and you end up with two attacking wingers, two strikers, an attacking midfielder and one man to take on defensive duties.

Bring in a defensive midfielder and you concede the central area just outside of your oppositions area which is generally regarded as the most important area on the field, tactically speaking. In doing this you isolate a striker as one has to drop deep which then sees you playing in something that is closer to a five man midfield and sees a man isolated up top.


So where do we go from here? Well let's just say I'll be surprised if Ferguson buys anything other than Wingers, Strikers or Defenders this year and we're left frustrated again. The key is going to be getting perennial sick notes Cleverley and Anderson fit. As we saw at the start of the season, two players who play with a quickness and mobility and careless abandon at times, not afraid to carry the ball but liable to the odd mistake. I think the secret will be getting an effective 4-5-1 again and using Valencia as a cautious approach with Young as an inside forward or Young in a more withdrawn role and Nani as an inside forward.

I'd settle for Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez as our three front men and use the extra squad space and free wages of Berbatov to invest in a player like Martinez who is comfortable on the ball and capable of dropping back into the back four if needed, the thought that Ferguson has this as Jones future role terrifies me.
 

Carl

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All of that to say you want to sign Martinez. There's a thread for that you know...

Joking.
 

Pexbo

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All of that to say you want to sign Martinez. There's a thread for that you know...

Joking.
Well no, my point is that we're caught up in tradition. We use wingers as the focus of our tactics and creativity and it doesn't look like that it changing. The problem is that the game is changing and the centre of midfield is where we are losing the big games. By investing in wingers we are making it very difficult to invest in the midfield and it is potentially a big problem.

If we sign an attacking midfielder, it'll be very difficult to play him in a 4-4-2 which is what we play in the majority of our games, if we sign a defensive midfielder, playing 4-4-2 most of the time, we'd only really have 15 - 20 games a season where we'd use him which Ferguson won't see as "Value" for the high fee and wages he would cost.

What I'm saying is that we need to break tradition and get away from using wingers as our number 1 tactic.


EDIT - feck your white text!
 

Adam-Utd

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I think the issue lies personally at our main 2 centre midfielders CANNOT carry the ball out of any pressure.

They are always looking to pass the ball out, which is fine when they are not being pressed, but when you have 2 people charging at you, your options gets limited and the passing options get quickly shut out.

We need midfielders who are comfortable at passing, but can also dribble passed 1/2 players without getting flustered.

You have too ask, why dont barcelona get flustered when pressed? there are many teams out there who try this approach, but they can handle the pressure through superior ball control.

Scholes / carrick are ideal against teams who sit back and try to contain us, as it gives them the room to play/breathe, but against teams who press we have seen that we struggle.

There was a moment in the city game when carrick had a chance to counter attack, but hes so bloody slow that toure just caught him up, tackled him and we lost posession.

4-4-2 isnt dead, but we need to train the players in high pressing situations so they are more used too it when it comes in the big games.
 

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We just need faster midfielders basically, and better still, make sure they can dribble.

Most if us have known this since Rome though!
 

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Oh, and I'd like to add, considering everyone likes to piss on this bonfire.... Cleverley & Anderson smashed that City midfield, they actually enjoyed the pressure as it left gaps a plenty. As a pair they were better than many are giving them credit for.
 

Mr. MUJAC

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While we have always played with wingers...our formation has evolved.

235 pre war and in the 1940's....424 in the late 1950's and early 1960's...433 in the mid 1960's and early 1970's...until Tommy Docherty got us playing 442 when he took over.

Fergie has numerous formations and although uses 442 often...has equally used 4411 or 451 in recent times.

So I wouldn't say we have been known for 442 at all....but attacking play with wingers...definitely yes.
 

Carl

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Well no, my point is that we're caught up in tradition. We use wingers as the focus of our tactics and creativity and it doesn't look like that it changing. The problem is that the game is changing and the centre of midfield is where we are losing the big games. By investing in wingers we are making it very difficult to invest in the midfield and it is potentially a big problem.

If we sign an attacking midfielder, it'll be very difficult to play him in a 4-4-2 which is what we play in the majority of our games, if we sign a defensive midfielder, playing 4-4-2 most of the time, we'd only really have 15 - 20 games a season where we'd use him which Ferguson won't see as "Value" for the high fee and wages he would cost.

What I'm saying is that we need to break tradition and get away from using wingers as our number 1 tactic.


EDIT - feck your white text!
:lol:
 

Carl

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While we have always played with wingers...our formation has evolved.

235 pre war and in the 1940's....424 in the late 1950's and early 1960's...433 in the mid 1960's and early 1970's...until Tommy Docherty got us playing 442 when he took over.

Fergie has numerous formations and although uses 442 often...has equally used 4411 or 451 in recent times.

So I wouldn't say we have been known for 442 at all....but attacking play with wingers...definitely yes.
:drool:

De Gea
Ferdinand Vidic
Rafael Carrick Evra
Valencia Cleverley Nani
Rooney Welbeck​

Hmmm... Where have I seen that before.
 

Edmeiste

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Oh, and I'd like to add, considering everyone likes to piss on this bonfire.... Cleverley & Anderson smashed that City midfield, they actually enjoyed the pressure as it left gaps a plenty. As a pair they were better than many are giving them credit for.
think that's what Pexbo was referring to. In that case, the question is can they stay fit. It's remarkable how teams like Chelsea, Spurs and City can keep the majority of their starting XI fit throughout the whole season but we've just been really unlucky with these injuries.

If we had that same core playing at the beginning of the season mostly fit throughout or even fit now, who's to say we couldn't have given City a better run for their money? I know Fergie had his reasons for reinstating a more defensive approach after the first 10 games or so as we leaked a lot of chances.
 

Adam-Utd

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Oh, and I'd like to add, considering everyone likes to piss on this bonfire.... Cleverley & Anderson smashed that City midfield, they actually enjoyed the pressure as it left gaps a plenty. As a pair they were better than many are giving them credit for.
Exactly, skilful enough to avade a tackle, and athletic enough to make use of the space made.

That is andersons key attribute.
 

Cina

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We've been very over reliant on our wingers in recent times. When they're off form we really look devoid of creating anything sometimes. That's why we need midfielders capable of getting involved in the attack and/or getting Rooney on the ball a lot more, depending on the formation.

Cleverley earlier in the season being a good example, he was involved in so many great attacking moves. As good as Scholes and Carrick have been, they very rarely do.
 

Pexbo

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think that's what Pexbo was referring to. In that case, the question is can they stay fit. It's remarkable how teams like Chelsea, Spurs and City can keep the majority of their starting XI fit throughout the whole season but we've just been really unlucky with these injuries.

If we had that same core playing at the beginning of the season mostly fit throughout or even fit now, who's to say we couldn't have given City a better run for their money? I know Fergie had his reasons for reinstating a more defensive approach after the first 10 games or so as we leaked a lot of chances.
It's exactly what I was referring to and it's what I'm referring to when I say that our tactical focus should be away from our wingers. We should be using our wingers as options and game changing weapons rather than building a formation on them which is what is clearly happening. I really do believe this is down to Phelan's old school tactics as we took a much more educated and balanced approach with Quieroz's infulence.

If we can play a similar system to what we started the season off with, having Cleverley and Anderson really supporting the attack we'd see a lot more creativity and a lot more of the ball against teams that like to press. The role of the wider players is then to pull in more centrally and cover the space in behind the centre mids with the width being supplied by the fullbacks, something Evra and Rafael do naturally anyway. It's a job Valencia and Young are more than capable of doing already and we could still use Nani as an attacking winger or inside forward when needed, he's excellent in both positions.

The other thing the system allows for is partnerships all over the field which I have spoken about before and I think is very important tactically.

In a 4-4-2 I think there is 6 important partnerships (in brackets is who I think are our most natural of those partnerships)

Left Full Back and Left Winger (Young and Evra)

Right Full Back and Right Winger (Rafael and Valencia)

Two Central Defenders (Ferdinand and Vidic clearly, Ferdinand and Evans in his absence)

The Two Centre Midfielders. (Carrick and Scholes but Anderson and Cleverley showed huge promise in their understanding)

Centre Midfield and Striker (Cleverley and Welbeck have shown unreal understanding at times)

Wingers and Strikers (Valencia and Rooney the last 2 years, Young and Rooney this season)

Strike Partnership (Rooney and Welbeck)


Now for me our main issue has been in one area the Centre Midfield/Striker relationship. Neither Carrick or Scholes actually seem to have any sort of affinity with our strikers which is incredible considering the intelligence in positioning and passing between them all. As I said earlier, when the source to our wingers has been cut off it's obvious they severely lack the support of the wide men as neither central player supports the attack enough.


So to conclude, I think we should look to ask our wingers to provide more support in midfield in order to allow our midfield to support our strikers. That still allows us the opportunity to switch the play and use our wingers as the fearsome out let we know they can be.

It's a big step as I said we have always played with attacking wing play but in order to be able to utilise that wing play against the better teams we must first use those wingers to gain control of the midfield, without it we are hopeless.
 

tintedsepia

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If I was to ask you to sum up United as a club in terms of tactics, you'd say two things wouldn't you? 4-4-2 and Wingers.

As a club we've always been blessed with great wingers, Meredith, Spence, Best, Coppell are names that spring up from the past and in the Ferguson era and it becomes very obvious how he likes his wingers you have the likes of Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Beckham and Ronaldo and more recently Nani, Young and Valencia.

When you have that quality of Winger at your dispense, your tactics are dictated as such, or you are dictating your tactics as such.

United, rightly in my opinion have played 4-4-2 in all but the biggest and European games. Even in those games when at Old Trafford we have sometimes still favoured it.

It allows two strikers to work as a partnership, two midfielders to work as a partnership and two wingers to stretch the play and be the focus of our distribution. The midfielders role is actually very limited in terms of play. It's why Scholes in his latter years and Carrick now excel, it asks for limited mobility, limited creativity and limited defensive play. Their role is to distribute and contain which is something both are up there with the best in the world at doing. I'd argue that Scholes was the best in the world at it around 06-08 and he isn't far off now.

So what is the problem with this? Well we've seen it against any team that looks to press our midfield, it's like having a tap attached to a lawn full of sprinklers. Some teams run around madly trying to stop one sprinkler and in doing so it just makes another sprinkler spray out more water, they run to that sprinkler and the other one becomes more effective again. Some teams walk up to the tap and turn it down, or sometimes off. The sprinklers aren't getting much water out now. In simple terms, strangle our midfield and it doesn't matter how talented Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia or Young are on the ball if they aren't seeing the ball.

Newcastle did it, Ajax did it to an extent, Bilbao did it brilliantly, Wigan did too and City did it brilliantly on Monday night.


What worries me is that Ferguson isn't looking for a remedy to this, he's just looking to make us better at it. If reports are to be believed rather than looking for natural centre midfielders who are comfortable on the ball and comfortable creating or defending we are looking at the likes of Hazard and Guitan, players who will again rely on the source of that Tap in order to play their game.

Ferguson knows that with our 4-4-2 being played in the majority of our 60 game season, say 50 and 10 with a 3 man midfield that leaves just 130 starts to be spread out between:

Carrick, Scholes, Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs, possibly Fletcher and possibly Pogba next season.

Spread evenly that would be 18 starts each. When Carrick is going to start 40 of them, you can start to see why he thinks £30m and wages on a top Midfielder isn't "Value".

It's a conundrum though as not only is 4-4-2 and wingers ingrained in this clubs blood it also makes it very difficult to change your midfield supply.

Change it in any way and you upset the balance, bring in an attacking midfielder to provide some creativity in the way a player like Silva does and you end up with two attacking wingers, two strikers, an attacking midfielder and one man to take on defensive duties.

Bring in a defensive midfielder and you concede the central area just outside of your oppositions area which is generally regarded as the most important area on the field, tactically speaking. In doing this you isolate a striker as one has to drop deep which then sees you playing in something that is closer to a five man midfield and sees a man isolated up top.


So where do we go from here? Well let's just say I'll be surprised if Ferguson buys anything other than Wingers, Strikers or Defenders this year and we're left frustrated again. The key is going to be getting perennial sick notes Cleverley and Anderson fit. As we saw at the start of the season, two players who play with a quickness and mobility and careless abandon at times, not afraid to carry the ball but liable to the odd mistake. I think the secret will be getting an effective 4-5-1 again and using Valencia as a cautious approach with Young as an inside forward or Young in a more withdrawn role and Nani as an inside forward.

I'd settle for Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez as our three front men and use the extra squad space and free wages of Berbatov to invest in a player like Martinez who is comfortable on the ball and capable of dropping back into the back four if needed, the thought that Ferguson has this as Jones future role terrifies me.
Good post.

I think the other thing to say is that our approach works in the Premiership. But in Europe everything becomes unstuck when teams use 3 midfield players or players more adept at keeping the ball and cutting through our midfield. We don't quite have the guile or the physicality to cope with it.

When other teams in the PL start adapting this approach - Man City, Wigan, Chelsea then we will struggle with the current personnel.

After the CL final SAF said that the way Barcelona play points to a way forward. He didn't implement anything approaching that way last summer. And this summer IF THE RUMOURS ARE TO BE BELIEVED he's also not going to do anything really.

I agree with Martinez. The only thought is that SAF is relying on Cleverley (who gets injured - he got injured at Wigan!), Anderson (ditto), Fletcher (question marks about health), Park (not good enough now), Jones (not a central midfield player), Giggs (towards end of his career), Scholes (good but without the physicality to drive the team forward).

Unless SAF is relying on Daehli, Petrucci, Pogba, Tunnicliffe, and Januzaj but at best these will be on loan next season (apart from perhaps Pogba but I think he's leaving).

At Xmas SAF said he didn't understand people saying we needed a new central midfield player. Either he's working on a completely different tactical model to the rest of us (v. likely) or he has a blind spot. Mourinho has indicated a couple of times that he has a blind spot. My thoughts are that he knows what works in the PL and bases most of his decision making on that right now. But in Europe it is a completely different kettle of fish and Mourinho is the master at it.
 

Ash_G

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We've been very over reliant on our wingers in recent times. When they're off form we really look devoid of creating anything sometimes. That's why we need midfielders capable of getting involved in the attack and/or getting Rooney on the ball a lot more, depending on the formation.

Cleverley earlier in the season being a good example, he was involved in so many great attacking moves. As good as Scholes and Carrick have been, they very rarely do.
I think this is where we get an issue. People look at our midfield and say where's the creativity from the middle? But the thing I think people miss is that in todays game, where the majority of teams play 433/451, expecting two midfielders to offer the final pass when they're outnumbered in the middle at leas 2:3, and tbh more often then that it's more than that because most teams play much more narrow than we do, is something they're just not going to do on a regular basis.

If you compare to City yesterday then they had 4 main creators/attackers, Silva, Nasri, Tevez and Aguero. Barry and Toure sat back and recyled possession for them. They're not that involved in the main attack and certainly don't play the killer balls often. Once Toure got pushed further worward as De Jong came on, he got more involved. And it's a similar story for them all season and for most teams. You have 4 attackers and 2 players who help maintain possession. Our four are generally Nani, Valencia Rooney and Welbeck. The creativity has to come from the wings mostly because that's how we're set up.

And I think there is one of the issues in our attack. At times it's just too rigid, players are fixed in their positions too much and end up very far away from each other. When we're at our best we're mixing wing play with players running inside, you'll have players swapping etc. But when we get static we become very predictable. It's something we need to work on, but tbh I think we will improve. We've not been able to get Nani, Welbeck, Rooney and Valencia/Young all fit and on the pitch enough to build cohesion, and issues in other parts of the pitch haven't always given them the platform to work with.

Other times, having Hernandez for all his goal threat can inhibit our attacks because he's not as good on the ball as the others around him.

In terms of our midfield we need to make it more solid personally, I wouldn't say we have to get in a creator, but someone who can come in alongside Carrick, keep it tight, and provide a good service to the attackers. A proper attacking supply from full back would help immensely too imo.

I agree about getting Rooney more involved though. Too often I think we get him to push up alongside the other striker which for me you just can't do anymore except against weaker teams. Otherwise you're asking from too much from the midfield who as I said become isolated as a result of being outnumbered. You need that link player to give them a quick outball. Getting in a back-up for Rooney, probably in place of Berba would be an important move for us this summer as well I think.

But as long as we set up with 2 wide wingers and 2 strikers then I personally don't see the midfielders really providing that much, not in terms of the final pass, they'll always be too far back. We can improve our output there, particularly if we can get a more mobile player ahead of scholes but in general I don't see it happening. As for going 442/4411 in the modern game and whether you need to change to succeed in europe, well personally I think that if you have two defensively strong midfielders in there and wingers who work hard then you can get away with it. Carrick and Fletcher as a combo can keep it as tight as you'd like, problem comes when you don't have those options, because then holes will appear.
 

Smores

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For me the main problem this season has been that Giggs is the only central attacking option and he's not been performing.

I don't really want us to change the way we play I'd just like a better option from the bench. Id hope one of Cleverly or Anderson would provide that next season.

Ash has expressed the rest of my thoughts, the bastard always did this in the newbs as well, always in before me :lol:
 

DFreshKing

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If I was to ask you to sum up United as a club in terms of tactics, you'd say two things wouldn't you? 4-4-2 and Wingers.

As a club we've always been blessed with great wingers, Meredith, Spence, Best, Coppell are names that spring up from the past and in the Ferguson era and it becomes very obvious how he likes his wingers you have the likes of Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Giggs, Beckham and Ronaldo and more recently Nani, Young and Valencia.

When you have that quality of Winger at your dispense, your tactics are dictated as such, or you are dictating your tactics as such.

United, rightly in my opinion have played 4-4-2 in all but the biggest and European games. Even in those games when at Old Trafford we have sometimes still favoured it.

It allows two strikers to work as a partnership, two midfielders to work as a partnership and two wingers to stretch the play and be the focus of our distribution. The midfielders role is actually very limited in terms of play. It's why Scholes in his latter years and Carrick now excel, it asks for limited mobility, limited creativity and limited defensive play. Their role is to distribute and contain which is something both are up there with the best in the world at doing. I'd argue that Scholes was the best in the world at it around 06-08 and he isn't far off now.

So what is the problem with this? Well we've seen it against any team that looks to press our midfield, it's like having a tap attached to a lawn full of sprinklers. Some teams run around madly trying to stop one sprinkler and in doing so it just makes another sprinkler spray out more water, they run to that sprinkler and the other one becomes more effective again. Some teams walk up to the tap and turn it down, or sometimes off. The sprinklers aren't getting much water out now. In simple terms, strangle our midfield and it doesn't matter how talented Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez, Nani, Valencia or Young are on the ball if they aren't seeing the ball.

Newcastle did it, Ajax did it to an extent, Bilbao did it brilliantly, Wigan did too and City did it brilliantly on Monday night.


What worries me is that Ferguson isn't looking for a remedy to this, he's just looking to make us better at it. If reports are to be believed rather than looking for natural centre midfielders who are comfortable on the ball and comfortable creating or defending we are looking at the likes of Hazard and Guitan, players who will again rely on the source of that Tap in order to play their game.

Ferguson knows that with our 4-4-2 being played in the majority of our 60 game season, say 50 and 10 with a 3 man midfield that leaves just 130 starts to be spread out between:

Carrick, Scholes, Cleverley, Anderson, Giggs, possibly Fletcher and possibly Pogba next season.

Spread evenly that would be 18 starts each. When Carrick is going to start 40 of them, you can start to see why he thinks £30m and wages on a top Midfielder isn't "Value".

It's a conundrum though as not only is 4-4-2 and wingers ingrained in this clubs blood it also makes it very difficult to change your midfield supply.

Change it in any way and you upset the balance, bring in an attacking midfielder to provide some creativity in the way a player like Silva does and you end up with two attacking wingers, two strikers, an attacking midfielder and one man to take on defensive duties.

Bring in a defensive midfielder and you concede the central area just outside of your oppositions area which is generally regarded as the most important area on the field, tactically speaking. In doing this you isolate a striker as one has to drop deep which then sees you playing in something that is closer to a five man midfield and sees a man isolated up top.


So where do we go from here? Well let's just say I'll be surprised if Ferguson buys anything other than Wingers, Strikers or Defenders this year and we're left frustrated again. The key is going to be getting perennial sick notes Cleverley and Anderson fit. As we saw at the start of the season, two players who play with a quickness and mobility and careless abandon at times, not afraid to carry the ball but liable to the odd mistake. I think the secret will be getting an effective 4-5-1 again and using Valencia as a cautious approach with Young as an inside forward or Young in a more withdrawn role and Nani as an inside forward.

I'd settle for Rooney, Welbeck and Hernandez as our three front men and use the extra squad space and free wages of Berbatov to invest in a player like Martinez who is comfortable on the ball and capable of dropping back into the back four if needed, the thought that Ferguson has this as Jones future role terrifies me.
We didn't play 442 against City and we only had one winger.

It was because we ditched our tradition for pragmatism that bugs me more than the result.
 

Ash_G

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For me the main problem this season has been that Giggs is the only central attacking option and he's not been performing.

I don't really want us to change the way we play I'd just like a better option from the bench. Id hope one of Cleverly or Anderson would provide that next season.

Ash has expressed the rest of my thoughts, the bastard always did this in the newbs as well, always in before me :lol:
Mate you should appreciate it. Amount of time I'm saving you. Remember how many essays I wrote back there?
 

Cina

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I think this is where we get an issue. People look at our midfield and say where's the creativity from the middle? But the thing I think people miss is that in todays game, where the majority of teams play 433/451, expecting two midfielders to offer the final pass when they're outnumbered in the middle at leas 2:3, and tbh more often then that it's more than that because most teams play much more narrow than we do, is something they're just not going to do on a regular basis.

If you compare to City yesterday then they had 4 main creators/attackers, Silva, Nasri, Tevez and Aguero. Barry and Toure sat back and recyled possession for them. They're not that involved in the main attack and certainly don't play the killer balls often. Once Toure got pushed further worward as De Jong came on, he got more involved. And it's a similar story for them all season and for most teams. You have 4 attackers and 2 players who help maintain possession. Our four are generally Nani, Valencia Rooney and Welbeck. The creativity has to come from the wings mostly because that's how we're set up.

And I think there is one of the issues in our attack. At times it's just too rigid, players are fixed in their positions too much and end up very far away from each other. When we're at our best we're mixing wing play with players running inside, you'll have players swapping etc. But when we get static we become very predictable. It's something we need to work on, but tbh I think we will improve. We've not been able to get Nani, Welbeck, Rooney and Valencia/Young all fit and on the pitch enough to build cohesion, and issues in other parts of the pitch haven't always given them the platform to work with.

Other times, having Hernandez for all his goal threat can inhibit our attacks because he's not as good on the ball as the others around him.

In terms of our midfield we need to make it more solid personally, I wouldn't say we have to get in a creator, but someone who can come in alongside Carrick, keep it tight, and provide a good service to the attackers. A proper attacking supply from full back would help immensely too imo.

I agree about getting Rooney more involved though. Too often I think we get him to push up alongside the other striker which for me you just can't do anymore except against weaker teams. Otherwise you're asking from too much from the midfield who as I said become isolated as a result of being outnumbered. You need that link player to give them a quick outball. Getting in a back-up for Rooney, probably in place of Berba would be an important move for us this summer as well I think.

But as long as we set up with 2 wide wingers and 2 strikers then I personally don't see the midfielders really providing that much, not in terms of the final pass, they'll always be too far back. We can improve our output there, particularly if we can get a more mobile player ahead of scholes but in general I don't see it happening. As for going 442/4411 in the modern game and whether you need to change to succeed in europe, well personally I think that if you have two defensively strong midfielders in there and wingers who work hard then you can get away with it. Carrick and Fletcher as a combo can keep it as tight as you'd like, problem comes when you don't have those options, because then holes will appear.
Well you're strictly on about 4-4-2 here. I'm talking about 4-5-1 too, like on Monday. Our midfield was devoid of creating anything. And with Nani being doubled up on and Rooney being totally isolated we were not able to do anything.
 

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Well you're strictly on about 4-4-2 here. I'm talking about 4-5-1 too, like on Monday. Our midfield was devoid of creating anything. And with Nani being doubled up on and Rooney being totally isolated we were not able to do anything.
Going into a 4-5-1 in the way we did against City played into their hands. With Giggsy tucking in, they were able to double up on Nani and restrict the outlet balls that we had. It hurt our attack because Scholes and Carrick weren't necessarily going to make runs into space and Park's runs into space helped no one. Offensively, we looked stretched that night. as if our players couldn't get close to each other to really create anything

To me it's not strictly about the formation. It's how you play in it.
 

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Well you're strictly on about 4-4-2 here. I'm talking about 4-5-1 too, like on Monday. Our midfield was devoid of creating anything. And with Nani being doubled up on and Rooney being totally isolated we were not able to do anything.
But that wasn't anything like our ideal formation in a 433/451. We've played it very well in the past when we needed to and they key to that is having the right balance. Carrick, Fletcher and Ando is a central 3 before that has done very well and is very well balanced. The options on monday weren't. Playing Park in attacking midfield for me is not ideal and not the strongest we could have gone, Fergie made a decision rightly or wrongly to sacrifice attacking threat from the middle to put Park there. If we had clev/ando/giggs/rooney/young there that area would be much stronger. Similarly having fletcher for scholes would have made the midfield much more solid.

Out wide we dot things wrong as well, which contributed to the overall lack of creativity.

But these are separate issues, when we have people fit we have the players who can play that way well, maybe not as well as others but that's because it's not our main style. With Fletcher a big question mark though we definitely need to invest in another defensively strong midfielder though.

What I do think though is that too often when we go to a 433/451 we select the wrong players for certain key roles and it lets us down imo, and I think that's something Fergie and the coaches need to assess.
 

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We don't have the proper midfielders to play 3 man midfields right now. Fletcher and Anderson are not reliable options there at all.

We need players like Martinez and Hazard. We'll probably get neither of them, but they're the ideal type.
 

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Really? I think Fletcher is an ideal player for a 433, unless you mean in terms of fitness in which case I agree, which is why I said we need to sign someone. In terms of style though he's brilliant there. Similarly the best formation for Ando/Clev for me would be a 433 with them in the attacking midfield role.
 
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......

Bring in a defensive midfielder and you concede the central area just outside of your oppositions area which is generally regarded as the most important area on the field, tactically speaking. ....
Back in the day when we used to employ Butt form time to time we never suffered that issue.

the problem with 4-4-2 is you need a perfect unit of 4. A winger who can defend superbly well, a play making winger, a holder who can pass plus a play maker who can break forward to score. It is night impossible to bag 4 players of that kind in today's game at the same time.

It so much easier to play a 4-2-3-1. That way you can bag the benefits of a 4-4-2 without needing the same specifications.
 

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Back in the day when we used to employ Butt form time to time we never suffered that issue.

the problem with 4-4-2 is you need a perfect unit of 4. A winger who can defend superbly well, a play making winger, a holder who can pass plus a play maker who can break forward to score. It is night impossible to bag 4 players of that kind in today's game at the same time.

It so much easier to play a 4-2-3-1. That way you can bag the benefits of a 4-4-2 without needing the same specifications.
You could argue we have both of those in Valencia and Nani. But yeah, the midfield 2 is very difficult. For all the talk of Hazard and Kagawa, as far as I know neither of them can do the playmaker job effectively in a 4-4-2, obviously that could change. Martinez is definitely the type of holding player you described though.
 
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You could argue we have both of those in Valencia and Nani. But yeah, the midfield 2 is very difficult. For all the talk of Hazard and Kagawa, as far as I know neither of them can do the playmaker job effectively in a 4-4-2, obviously that could change. Martinez is definitely the type of holding player you described though.
Players like Martinez and Yaya Toure are the type. We bag ourselves a player like that and we can continue to play 4-4-2. For such a player would allow the likes of Cleverely and Anderson to thrive. Plus that man would provide the perfect partner for Carrick against the toughest opposition.
 

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Just a quick bump.

Fergie has said he's not looking for a "holding" midfielder, I read this as not really looking for a "midfielder" as such. With Kagawa coming in who can play the Trequartista role and will no doubt be expected to be flexible and drop deeper into an AM role, maybe we are moving away from two strikers and 4-4-2, I can see us sticking to our winger traditions and playing 3 in midfield with Kagawa at the head of it.
 

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Just a quick bump.

Fergie has said he's not looking for a "holding" midfielder, I read this as not really looking for a "midfielder" as such. With Kagawa coming in who can play the Trequartista role and will no doubt be expected to be flexible and drop deeper into an AM role, maybe we are moving away from two strikers and 4-4-2, I can see us sticking to our winger traditions and playing 3 in midfield with Kagawa at the head of it.
I'm not sure if Fergie actually believes in the term 'holding' midfielder. I think he believes a midfielder should be able to attack and defend ala Keane and Robson, and admires players like Fletcher. Its why we don't really sign limited holding players like Tiote or luxury creative players like Sneijder. Take Anderson who was signed probably as a Trequarista but attempted to be moulded into an all action midfielder. If we sign Kagawa he'll probably also need to do his fair share of defensive work.
 

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I'm not sure if Fergie actually believes in the term 'holding' midfielder. I think he believes a midfielder should be able to attack and defend ala Keane and Robson, and admires players like Fletcher. Its why we don't really sign limited holding players like Tiote or luxury creative players like Sneijder. Take Anderson who was signed probably as a Trequarista but attempted to be moulded into an all action midfielder. If we sign Kagawa he'll probably also need to do his fair share of defensive work.
Kagawa is more likely to become an extra option wide than go through the Anderson process of adding steel to his game and playing as a general midfielder. It would be a bit like trying to turn Rooney into Lampard. When a player specialises in the final third and has proven he can do it at a good level, it doesnt make much sense to do this.

On the other hand when you have players who play as deep as Carrick, Fletcher and Cleverley as your other 2 central midfielders, the defensive burden will be lessened. And players such as Sneijder, Kagawa and so on should be able to link between the midfield and attack in front of them.
 

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Kagawa is more likely to become an extra option wide than go through the Anderson process of adding steel to his game and playing as a general midfielder. It would be a bit like trying to turn Rooney into Lampard. When a player specialises in the final third and has proven he can do it at a good level, it doesnt make much sense to do this.

On the other hand when you have players who play as deep as Carrick, Fletcher and Cleverley as your other 2 central midfielders, the defensive burden will be lessened. And players such as Sneijder, Kagawa and so on should be able to link between the midfield and attack in front of them.
Havn't seen much of Kagawa so i'll take your word for it. My main point was if Fergie considers a player to be a midfielder he's likely to expect you be competent in both attack and defence, so the term holding midfielder wouldn't be in his vocabulary. I don't think he's likely to sign a player that just sits infront of the back 4 who doesn't contribute in all areas.
 

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Kagawa is more likely to become an extra option wide than go through the Anderson process of adding steel to his game and playing as a general midfielder. It would be a bit like trying to turn Rooney into Lampard. When a player specialises in the final third and has proven he can do it at a good level, it doesnt make much sense to do this.

On the other hand when you have players who play as deep as Carrick, Fletcher and Cleverley as your other 2 central midfielders, the defensive burden will be lessened. And players such as Sneijder, Kagawa and so on should be able to link between the midfield and attack in front of them.
I disagree with that completely. I don't think you've even seen him if you think he's more likely to move out wide.

He'd be more than capable of dropping deeper and playing pass and move possession football alongside Carrick.
 

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The problem though is as always centre mid. You can move to a 3 but if you don't have the players to execute it against good teams then it won't matter.

Because Scholes doesn't have the legs now he sits deep most the time, the problem with this is that he's not defensively strong enough to hold the for and so Carrick also has to play deep. This creates a big hole between them and the strikers. Having someone drop in to this hole would help out and Kagawa could do that but I'm unsure if this is really Fergie's plan. He could have done this with Rooney this season and whilst at times he's played deeper than the other striker he's never really gone so deep as to make himself more of an attacking midfielder than a second striker. Maybe Fergie has changed his view of things but I'd be suprised if he's done that so suddenly. However either way with scholes in the team against better/adventurous teams we'll always be under additional pressure because he can't deal with midfield runners that well and his deep positioning means that they're able to push up higher.

If we don't play with Scholes and go for an ando/clev we gain more energy in the middle but personally I don't think it's that much stronger defensively. They have more legs than scholes and so can deal with midfield runners better but neither imo has a particularly good understanding of defending in a deeper role. Scholes might not have the legs and varying tackling ability but he know's where to go and his composure under pressure is a big help.

If we could get Fletcher for the bigger games than having an attacking midfielder and that option to go for a 3 would be great. But it doesn't look likely that Fletcher will be more than a bit part player and if that's the case then signing an attacking midfielder won't really address the problems we have because the problems are in central midfield. If we could sort that then we give our selves a solid base to work off. Additionally we'll have a massive problem if Carrick is injured.
 

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I think we'll continue to use 4-4-2 most of the time, except for the big games. Sir Alex was hell bent on developing Welbeck last season, even at the expense of Hernandez and Berbatov, and I don't think after making all that progress with him, we'd start using a formation that would put him on the bench or out wide (Rooney always plays if he's fit).

Signing Kagawa would be a significant upgrade to our lineup when we're playing in games where we opt to use one striker. In our disastrous Champions League ties and against City when we set up with one striker, the playmaker role that Kagawa would be, was usually Giggs or Park and they didn't really do a good job.
 

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I disagree with that completely. I don't think you've even seen him if you think he's more likely to move out wide.

He'd be more than capable of dropping deeper and playing pass and move possession football alongside Carrick.
He's small and lightweight, even more-so than David Silva. But he has more pace and arguably better dribbling. There is no doubt he could do a job wide, as he tends to float out there during open play anyway and his physical and technical abilities are suited for it.

What you cannot expect him to do is play next to Carrick in a midfield 2. Thats something he's never done, isnt suited for and suggests you're the one who hasnt seen a picture or some youtube clips let alone an actual football match he's played in.

Myself, I thought we were trying to sign him back in 2010-2011 when we said we tried to bring in a player during Jan but he wasnt available, and Dortmund had warned us off him. So I've been paying attention for a while thanks
 

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Havn't seen much of Kagawa so i'll take your word for it. My main point was if Fergie considers a player to be a midfielder he's likely to expect you be competent in both attack and defence, so the term holding midfielder wouldn't be in his vocabulary. I don't think he's likely to sign a player that just sits infront of the back 4 who doesn't contribute in all areas.
I agree, but I think "Holding" midfielder becomes a confusing term because plenty of players who offer more than just sitting in front of a defence get tagged with it. Someone like Tiote who can pass the ball around nicely as well as win the ball and has shown ability to strike a mean shot now and again too but some will call him a holding midfielder. Or Essien who until Makelele retired, was bombing up and down the pitch and so on.
 

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He's small and lightweight, even more-so than David Silva. But he has more pace and arguably better dribbling. There is no doubt he could do a job wide, as he tends to float out there during open play anyway and his physical and technical abilities are suited for it.

What you cannot expect him to do is play next to Carrick in a midfield 2. Thats something he's never done, isnt suited for and suggests you're the one who hasnt seen a picture or some youtube clips let alone an actual football match he's played in.

Myself, I thought we were trying to sign him back in 2010-2011 when we said we tried to bring in a player during Jan but he wasnt available, and Dortmund had warned us off him. So I've been paying attention for a while thanks
He's the same size as Modric who gets on just fine in a midfield two. His drifting wide is limited to creating space for his team mates and himself. He's no winger.

It's quality that is the over riding factor of whether a player can play in the centre, not size. His movement and technical ability leads me to believe he could play there, his size has nothing to do with it. Leon Britton is smaller and thanks to technical ability again, gets on just fine.
 

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Its about attitude and know how to. Modric had played a deeper role in most his career, he knows how to play there and more importantly wants to, it's where he's developed his game. The likes of silva, sneijder etc all have the ability to play centre mid but they don't know how to play there, in terms of when to go, how to drop in etc, the discipline required. Gerrard has done it loads and still is a liability there. Not to me to mention they'd be directly changing how they play and their impact on the game. Would they be happy doing this? Would kagawa?