Pele

B Cantona · Sep 26, 2007

The Messi thread got me thinking

Pele is fairly universally recognised as the best player the game has ever produced. Some argue Maradona, Best, and some others, but I think the mainstream accepted view is that Pele was the best

I simply ask, why do you think he was the best, if indeed you think this way?

I'll listen to some opinions first, then I'll put my own view across why I don't think he was the best player ever (Some of which you can already pick up if you read that Messi thread). In my view, not even the best Brazilian

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

Maradonna for me, but he could have been better and wasn't as much a role model as Pele, but Diego was the best

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

Was Pele really better than Garrincha?

REd FUn DevIl · Sep 26, 2007

Pele won 3 world cups and was fundamental for the 3 of them

enough said

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

REd FUn DevIl said:
Pele won 3 world cups and was fundamental for the 3 of them

enough said

Garrincha was just as important in two of them

reddevilcanada · Sep 26, 2007

Pele won the world cup for Brazil at 17, their first ever conquest.

Enough said.

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
Garrincha was just as important in two of them

Fair dues, but the annuls of history will remember Pele over Garrincha despite many people's opinions

Iron Stove · Sep 26, 2007

Maradona for me

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

reddevilcanada said:
Pele won the world cup for Brazil at 17, their first ever conquest.

Enough said.

So did Ronaldo and he only played five minutes in the whole tournament
in 1994, will people in 200 years reading history books recognise that fact?

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

Although Pele's goal record is nothing short of sensational, why didn't he ever move to Europe? If he'd played like that in Europe then without a shadow of a doubt he'd be the greatest.

His goal record:
Santos 412 (470)
New York Cosmos 64 (37)

*the figure in brackets is goals scored)

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
Although Pele's goal record is nothing short of sensational, why didn't he ever move to Europe? If he'd played like that in Europe then without a shadow of a doubt he'd be the greatest.

His goal record:
Santos 412 (470)
New York Cosmos 64 (37)

*the figure in brackets is goals scored)

That's incredible, 470 goals in 412 games. Apparently, Busby tried to sign him in the sixties, Pele said so in a recent interview.
But hang on, where did the other 700 goals he was meant to have scored come from, he never scored seven hundred for Brazil?
He is meant to have scored over 1200 goals isn't he?

reddevilcanada · Sep 26, 2007

Johnno said:
So did Ronaldo and he only played five minutes in the whole tournament
in 1994, will people in 200 years reading history books recognise that fact?

except Pele didn't contribute only with 5 minutes of world cup football, you did know that right?

B Cantona · Sep 26, 2007

Johnno said:
That's incredible, 470 goals in 412 games. Apparently, Busby tried to sign him in the sixties, Pele said so in a recent interview.
But hang on, where did the other 700 goals he was meant to have scored come from, he never scored seven hundred for Brazil?
He is meant to have scored over 1200 goals isn't he?

I've done research on this Johnno, I'll interject to say that the majority of Pele's goals were scored in uncompetitive friendly games. Many of his Santos goals were against poor Sau Paulo State sides, we're talking the equivalent of United playing Rochdale here. They still have that today incidently between Brazilian league seasons.

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

Johnno said:
That's incredible, 470 goals in 412 games. Apparently, Busby tried to sign him in the sixties, Pele said so in a recent interview.
But hang on, where did the other 700 goals he was meant to have scored come from, he never scored seven hundred for Brazil?
He is meant to have scored over 1200 goals isn't he?

Yeah but I think many of them were in local tournaments and championships when there wasn't really an organised league or something. So the quality of opposition varied greatly.

I might be wrong, mind.

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

reddevilcanada said:
except Pele didn't contribute only with 5 minutes of world cup football, you did know that right?

of course I do, he scored a great goal in the final, but I wonder what else his contribution was throughout the whole tournament? They did win 5-2 in the final, so four other goals were scored. I am not detracting from the great man, just pointing out mitigating factors people will look at in such an argument.

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

It's hard to say if he's better than Maradona or Best because they both played succesfully in very tough European leagues where as Pele only played in Brazil.

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
Yeah but I think many of them were in local tournaments and championships when there wasn't really an organised league or something. So the quality of opposition varied greatly.

I might be wrong, mind.

In that case, my goal tally must be up in the hundreds, the amount of goals I used to score playing footy with my mates, at school or local teams, Pele can feck off, the new man is Johnnoinho

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
It's hard to say if he's better than Maradona or Best because they both played succesfully in very tough European leagues where as Pele only played in Brazil.

One thing I will say is that Pele won the World Cup with a very, very good Brazillian side a few times.
Maradonna won the World Cup in a very average side in which he was the instigator for everything.

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

Romario has over 1000 goals (allegedly) and many of them in Europe yet he gets little recognition.

e.cantona · Sep 26, 2007

As I havent seen Pele all that much I cant form much of an opinion other then from reputation. Maradona on the other hand I have seen quite a bit.
So probably Maradona for me. Amazing player he was.

REd FUn DevIl · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
It's hard to say if he's better than Maradona or Best because they both played succesfully in very tough European leagues where as Pele only played in Brazil.

that fact made what he achieved more fantastic
he didnt have to play on one of the europe leagues to show his worth and there were many teams interested in signing him but he never left his beloved Santos for Europe, he just left for Usa and that was to finish his career.

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
Romario has over 1000 goals (allegedly) and many of them in Europe yet he gets little recognition.

he came to Australia to play a cameo five match thing, he scored once, there was a big thing about it here, his tally is very debatable as well, OK, he did score a lot of goals for PSV, Barca and Milan (I think), but there is no way he managed to score more than a few hundred competetitive goals in those major European leagues.
Maybe he counts the 'three and in' games he played with his mates as a kid

B Cantona · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
Romario has over 1000 goals (allegedly) and many of them in Europe yet he gets little recognition.

Yes well I can debunk this one with ease, he simply hasn't scored 1000 goals. Albeit his record is fantastic, in that he's score some 600ish (I'd have to recheck the figures I collated) in competitive games, he seems to invented the rest. Even accounting for pre-season tours, I can't understand where the missing hundreds of goals came from

reddevilcanada · Sep 26, 2007

Johnno said:
of course I do, he scored a great goal in the final, but I wonder what else his contribution was throughout the whole tournament? They did win 5-2 in the final, so four other goals were scored. I am not detracting from the great man, just pointing out mitigating factors people will look at in such an argument.

actually he scored twice against Sweden in the final game,

he scored one against Wales, which was the only goal of the game helping Brazil advance to the Semi-finals.

He then scored a hat-trick against France in the semi-finals.

So all in all he scored 6 goals in four matches helping Brazil to their first ever world cup, I would think that's a pretty good contribution especially for a 17 year old kid, innit??

definitely better than Ronaldo's 'massive' contributin for Brazil in 1994 by playing for '5 minutes', right?

eric le roi · Sep 26, 2007

Haven't seen enough of Pele to make a judgement on him. I have seen plenty of footage of Best and some of the things he could do were sublime and makes the hair stand on end. But Maradona is the one I saw the most of and for me ranks as the best ever footballer.

Iron Stove · Sep 26, 2007

Maradona is football. I wonder if all the hand of God- Falklands bollocks clouds some peoples' judgement. He was easy to hate, especially for an Englishman I would imagine.

B Cantona · Sep 26, 2007

reddevilcanada said:
actually he scored twice against Sweden in the finals.

he scored one against Wales, which was the only goal of the game helping Brazil advance to the Semi-finals.

He then scored a hat-trick against France in the semi-finals.

So all in all he scored 6 goals in four matches helping Brazil to their first ever world cup, I would think that's a pretty good contribution especially for a 17 year old kid, innit??

Yes

But then, look at the players around him too, Vava and Garrincha amongst others. Pele didn't carry that side to victory, or in my view any other, in the way say Maradona did with the Argies. If anything Vava ran that 58 team

And it comes down to how we judge players. Best is some peoples greatest player ever. He never played in a world cup because of his nationality. I should think he'd have been sensational in that Brazil side of 58, and the others, and probably have made as much as a contribution as Pele. Added to which, Best proved himself in Europe, which while perhaps not to the same extent as today, was still the powerbase for top class players around the world

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

reddevilcanada said:
actually he scored twice against Sweden in the final game,

he scored one against Wales, which was the only goal of the game helping Brazil advance to the Semi-finals.

He then scored a hat-trick against France in the semi-finals.

So all in all he scored 6 goals in four matches helping Brazil to their first ever world cup, I would think that's a pretty good contribution especially for a 17 year old kid, innit??

definitely better than Ronaldo's 'massive' contributin for Brazil in 1994 by playing for '5 minutes', right?

that's fair enough, no argument from me there, wasn't trying to belittle your statement in first place.

peterstorey · Sep 26, 2007

Iron Stove said:
Maradona is football. I wonder if all the hand of God- Falklands bollocks cloud some peoples judgement. He was easy to hate, especially for an Englishman I would imagine.

Well there's also the drugs (very heavily steroided), the one footedness and the cheating. I had to sadly change my view when he came along that the good guys were always the best guys.

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

When Ronaldo (Brazilian) retires, do you think he will go down/deserves to go down as one of the greatest?

I hardly hear his name mentioned in these kinds of debates, which in my opinion is a travesty. He's easily the best striker of the last decade, his goal record speaks for itself.

reddevilcanada · Sep 26, 2007

Brad Cantona said:
Yes

But then, look at the players around him too, Vava and Garrincha amongst others. Pele didn't carry that side to victory, or in my view any other, in the way say Maradona did with the Argies. If anything Vava ran that 58 team

And it comes down to how we judge players. Best is some peoples greatest player ever. He never played in a world cup because of his nationality. I should think he'd have been sensational in that Brazil side of 58, and the others, and probably have made as much as a contribution as Pele. Added to which, Best proved himself in Europe, which while perhaps not to the same extent as today, was still the powerbase for top class players around the world

I think scoring 6 times in 4 games in the world cup at the age of 17 is an achivement that shouldn't be questioned because he played alongside players like Vava and Garrincha, it's really that phenomenal an achivement for a 17 year old lad.

You could look at that argument from a different angle, that standing out among players like Zagallo, Vava and Garrincha is much harder to do than to stand out playing for Northern Ireland as Best did.

B Cantona · Sep 26, 2007

reddevilcanada said:
I think scoring 6 times in 4 games in the world cup at the age of 17 is an achivement that shouldn't be questioned because he played alongside players like Vava and Garrincha, it's really that phenomenal an achivement for a 17 year old lad.

You could look at that argument from a different angle, that standing out among players like Zagallo, Vava and Garrincha is much harder to do than to stand out playing for Wales as Best did.

God I hope that last point is a typo! :lol:

Gazza · Sep 26, 2007

Johnno said:
Maradonna for me, but he could have been better and wasn't as much a role model as Pele, but Diego was the best

Frankly, being a good role model shouldn't really enter into the debate over who's the best ever. It is relevant if you're talking about favourite players or players who deserve respect, but in a discussion like this it matters F-all in my opinion.

LizardKing · Sep 26, 2007

reddevilcanada said:
I think scoring 6 times in 4 games in the world cup at the age of 17 is an achivement that shouldn't be questioned because he played alongside players like Vava and Garrincha, it's really that phenomenal an achivement for a 17 year old lad.

You could look at that argument from a different angle, that standing out among players like Zagallo, Vava and Garrincha is much harder to do than to stand out playing for Wales as Best did.

Eh?

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

lizardking125 said:
When Ronaldo (Brazilian) retires, do you think he will go down/deserves to go down as one of the greatest?

I hardly hear his name mentioned in these kinds of debates, which in my opinion is a travesty. He's easily the best striker of the last decade, his goal record speaks for itself.

that's what my point was with the Canadian fella, Ronaldo is a great footballer, maybe not as much as pele obviously but when people read about him in years to come and they will see he won the World Cup at seventeen (despite playing only five minutes as a sub), they will disregard these facts and concentrate on the stats and decide he was an incredible footballer

reddevilcanada · Sep 26, 2007

Brad Cantona said:
God I hope that last point is a typo!

yes, of course, that's what happens when you're typing too fast about Pele scoring against Wales, France,Sweden and George Best all at the same time

Johnno · Sep 26, 2007

Gazza said:
Frankly, being a good role model shouldn't really enter into the debate over who's the best ever. It is relevant if you're talking about favourite players or players who deserve respect, but in a discussion like this it matters F-all in my opinion.

public opinion has obviously swayed to Pele over Maradonna because of the drugs, the handball, the sordid lifestyle, of course it makes a difference, not to me though, I think he was the best but could have been better considering there were lengthy periods he was out of the game with drug problems, injuries, criminal charges etc

vikram10 · Sep 26, 2007

Yes, the mainstream media, highlight reels, documented reports of his ability and his role in 3 wold cup wins lead me to believe he is one of the best, if not the best, players to have played the game. Never seen him play live, mind.

surf · Sep 26, 2007

You have to look at achievement. Pele was in 3 teams that won the world cup, although he missed the final in 62 because of injury. He also scored over 1000 goals, had a great club career with Santos, and by and large behaved himself.

Garrincha was a more flawed genius and overall didn't achieve as much. Likewise Best.

Maradona's achievements may be on a par with Pele but many people mark him down because he was extremely controversial, e.g. the drugs at the 94 world cup, the hand of god, and others. I've read a biography of Maradona and there's no doubt that he was treated badly by his clubs and advisers, especially in regard to taking drugs to keep playing through injury. Regardless, he still shows more flaws than Pele. They were different types of players in that Maradona was more of a playmaker than Pele, and Pele scored a lot more goals. Incidentally, Alf Ramsey thought Maradona was better than Pele.

At the level of Pele vs Maradona, or Best vs Garrincha it may be hard to compare achievements, at which time it becomes a matter of opinion.

reddevilcanada · Sep 26, 2007

Johnno said:
that's what my point was with the Canadian fella, Ronaldo is a great footballer, maybe not as much as pele obviously but when people read about him in years to come and they will see he won the World Cup at seventeen (despite playing only five minutes as a sub), they will disregard these facts and concentrate on the stats and decide he was an incredible footballer

I think only idiots would decide that Ronaldo was an incredible footballer once he retires because he won the world cup at 17. Winning a world-cup at 17 by playing for only 5 minutes is quite different from winning a world-cup by scoring 6 goals in four games at 17.

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