Our mixed fortunes vs top 10 & bottom 10 + Home-Away form (Not a moyes thread)

[stevoc]

We are having an atrocious season this is just about the only thing all United fans seem to agree on right now. We have now played 32 league games 16 home & 16 away so i thought it might be interesting to discuss the most baffling aspects of our season so far, those being our mixed fortunes against team in the top 10 and team in the bottom 10, also our poor home form as opposed to our very respectable away form. And what is causing this. (Bit of a long post so credit to anyone who takes the time to wade through my rambling)

Before we go any further i would like to ask you guys to keep this thread for discussing why people think these contradicting patterns have emerged in our form, obviously tactics etc will come up but lets not have this thread descend into another Moyes specific debate please. Plenty of those going on right now, and i should know as i post in most of them. (Not a big Moyes fan)

So first up our home form vs away form, hopefully the colour coding is pretty self explanatory, so as can be seen our away form is definitely better, the best in the league in fact if im not mistaken, we are 9th in the home table. Though when comparing we have only 6 more points away (30) compared to home (24) having played the same amount of matches. Still better none the less though so the manager and players deserve credit for that.

We seem to find scoring easier away 30(A) 22(H), though we have conceded the exact same amount of goals home and away (19) which is a bit strange for me, as over the season i generally got the impression that we defended better in our away games.

The one thing that really interested me though is in our 16 away games we have only played 6 teams from the top 10 where as we have played 9 in our home games, could this account for our 6 extra points away from Old Trafford?

Depressing fact our win against Villa on saturday was our first win in the league at Old Trafford in over two months the last being vs Cardiff on the 28th of January

01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea------------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace------------02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool
03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion-----03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton-------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City----------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal-------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 0 - 1 Everton-------------------07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham
08 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United----------08 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
09 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United----------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham----------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City-------------11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea
12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City---------------12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City
13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham-------------------13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool------------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City---------- 15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
16 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa----------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham

P: 16 W: 07 D: 03 L: 06------------------P: 16 W: 09 D: 03 L: 04
GF: 22 GA: 19 GD: +03-------------------GF: 30 GA: 19 GD: +11
24 PTS From possible 48 PTS-------------30 PTS From possible 48 PTS
Top 10 teams faced = 09--------------- Top 10 teams faced = 06

Now onto our contrasting form against the top 10 & bottom 10, lets be honest theres no way to paint it in any sort of positive light our form vs the top half teams is abysmal, only 2 wins (the last being in Nov) and 10 points from a possible 45 in 15 games scoring 11 and conceding 25, most of the criticism of the team has been aimed at our defence which has been bad, but at least in these games our attack has been as poor if not worse, of the 9 games we have lost only 4 were by more than 1 goal, so creativity and scoring seems to be the biggest problem for us vs the top half.

How many games vs top 10 sides this season have we looked like we wouldn't score no matter how long we played. Also our form has gotten worse vs top 10 as the season has went on which is worrying.

Our fortunes against the bottom half is like night and day, 14 wins 2 draws losing just one, amassing 44 points from a possible 51, scoring 41 and conceding just 13, on the face of it you could say we should be beating these teams, but without checking i would hazard a guess this is probably a better record against the bottom 10 than we have had in most seasons, as we usually have a few slip ups against teams towards the bottom.

So we are definitely doing something right in these games and Moyes and the players deserve credit for this.

01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea-----------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool----------------02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City---------03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City---------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham--------------07 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
08 MU 0 - 1 Everton-----------------08 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United
09 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United--------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham--------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea-----------------11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City
12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City--------------12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City
13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal-----------------13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool----------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City---------15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
---------------------------------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham
---------------------------------------17 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa

P: 15 W: 02 D: 04 L: 09-----------------P: 17 W: 14 D: 02 L: 01
GF: 11 GA: 25 GD: -14------------------GF: 41 GA: 13 GD: +28
10 PTS From possible 45 PTS------------44 PTS From possible 51 PTS

Thanks to anyone who took the time to get this far, so what do we think what is causing this Jekyll & Hyde season we are having?

 

[bosnian_red]

Basically what we've all been saying but written out. Moyes' defensive nature comes out in the games against the harder teams and he just doesn't know how to do it. Those are the games where the manager makes the biggest difference as there isn't as big of a gap in quality between the teams, whereas we have enough world class players in our team to get through the games against the bottom half teams with little problems. Every time we come up against a big team though, we just start passing it slowly, start games slowly, go for a more workman like performance compared to how our players are used to playing and should be playing. Put down in writing like that though it just looks terrible, because it is.

I'm really not sure how anyone can be blamed other then the managers ineptitude that we've had such an awful record vs top 10 sides. TO go from champions to that... awful.

Also you put down the away draw to Arsenal as a loss colour wise.

 

[stevoc]

Also you put down the away draw to Arsenal as a loss colour wise.

Good spot cheers, fixed now.

 

[mazhar13]

I think it's all about Moyes and the quality of our team.

Moyes has shown himself to be a very reactive manager. Sure, he's had players like Pienaar, Mirallas, Baines, Fellaini and Osman play some decent football, but most of the time, he's resorted to being very reactive and just getting results without considering the quality of play. The reason why we've done poorly at home is because the opposition are reactive against us whilst Moyes isn't good at being proactive, thus making for horrible losses such as against Newcastle, West Brom, Tottenham, and Everton along with horrible draws against Fulham and Southampton. This is also the reason why we suffered against the Top 10. Our players aren't really used to being reactive to the extreme. Moyes is someone who doesn't think of how to beat the opposition (like Sir Alex). Rather, he is more about how to stop the opposition, and such a mentality creates fear and disbelief in players. This results in our lack of creativity and our defensive weakness: players are too worried and don't believe that they are good enough to beat the opposition, hence why they are set up to stop the opposition.

Away from home, however, the impetus is put on the home to have a go at us due to our appearance as a weak team. As a result, we do much better away from home as Moyes is able to stop the opposition's proactive approach and counter the opposition with our quality in attack. This is also the reason why we do so much better against the Bottom 10. The Bottom 10 have little quality to trouble our better defence, so even if our midfield has a tough time, our defence can hold up against the opposition's poor attack, and our attacking lineup can break down the opposition effectively. Against the Top 10, however, this reactive style doesn't work as those teams have been able to put more pressure on us and prevent us from countering them.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Thanks to anyone who took the time to get this far, so what do we think what is causing this Jekyll & Hyde season we are having?

There have been plenty of theories and it's probably a mix of a lot of things. Losing to pool and city at home no explanation required, they were better than us. A lot of the games we've dropped points at home I've left like a combo of: teams are playing their cup finals, their tails up from the start, putting in big dogged performances, they're happy to put 11 behind the ball. we've looked fairly clueless going forward most of the season + a decent slice of deflections and 30 yard strikes sneaking in. In general a mix of what most people think, our side are nervous and pondersome going forward, other teams smell blood a bit and think this is their cup final at old trafford, and some good old fashioned bad luck.

It's only a few games, quite a small sample size to draw any real conclusive message, but one thing is for sure - if moyes can sort out his home form (and he has managed this feat in the past) we will be a point grabbing machine

 

[bosnian_red]

Also I don't think you can read too much into the differences into the home v away form. Our next 3 away games are against Newcastle, Everton and Southampton, where we only grabbed a draw and 2 losses in the respective home games, and compare that to the 3 home games left (Hull, Norwich and Sunderland, 3 away wins in respective fixtures). Think the home and away records will be pretty much identical apart from goal difference come the end, us winning the home games, winning or drawing 1 away and losing the other 2. This shows that its really not anything about teams thinking its a cup final at Old Trafford or anything, they're just outclassing us because they play more adventurous football and are more positive minded then us in those games so are more likely to get the result.

 

[KeninDC]

Also I don't think you can read too much into the differences into the home v away form. Our next 3 away games are against Newcastle, Everton and Southampton, where we only grabbed a draw and 2 losses in the respective home games, and compare that to the 3 home games left (Hull, Norwich and Sunderland, 3 away wins in respective fixtures). Think the home and away records will be pretty much identical apart from goal difference come the end, us winning the home games, winning or drawing 1 away and losing the other 2. This shows that its really not anything about teams thinking its a cup final at Old Trafford or anything, they're just outclassing us because they play more adventurous football and are more positive minded then us in those games so are more likely to get the result.

Yes. On another thread I pointed out the small sample sizes involved-and the small difference in points per game between home and away matches is likely not statistically significant. I think this whole idea got legs from the stories reporting that we're first in the away table-which given the sample sizes is just a fluke. However, it's out there and people are trying to come up with explanations. Given it's a statistical fluke-any reason is plausible. Maybe it's some juju in United's dressing room-who knows.

The bottom line is that we lost 2 away games and 3 home games last year. Our overall form has dropped-so we will have more losses this year both home and away. As BR points out-once the season ends I suspect our home and away records will even out.

 

[Blue always red]

The better teams are more organised and have better defenders which can cut out a 25 yard through ball from either Mata/Kagawa/Carrick. No forward movement = little to be done for defenders.

The lower teams aren't organised and we kill them off as seen against West Brom where 3 of the 4 goals wouldn't have been against better teams.

 

[bishblaize]

I think it best to wait to the end of the season before categorically saying that we've done better in one type of game than another, especially as the last 6 fixtures kind of put those theories head to head, with three lower half teams at home and three upper half teams away. If I had to bet, I'd say we'll win our last three home games (drably), but will draw vs Newcastle, lose to Everton then draw against Southampton.

My gut feeling is that our team performances have actually been poor in pretty much all of our games this year, but that simply having players like Rooney around means that we can drag ourselves over the line against poorer teams. But in truth there's never a single reason and I think a proper consideration when we know the final reckoning is appropriate.

 

[soapythecat]

I know we have been battered by City, Liverpool and Chelsea - but this team has had similar wobbles against them under Fergie, just this season it happened all at once.

As i've mentioned before, you look at some of the results when we have conceded silly late goals, flukes, deflections and daft errors, then they are easily rectified next season once the squad is more settled, refreshed and understanding Moyes methods. Those defeats at OT can easily be turned into wins and we would be looking so much better and probably in the top 4.

Most of the football has been poor to watch this term but even last year there was plenty moaning about how poor we played and ground out results.

New signings and a more confident start to the season will see us do much better next year, no doubt about it.

A more consistent back 4, that doesn't need rotating due to injuries, will see us ship less goals. I'd also say that apart from the 3 teams mentioned at the top, I don't recall many goals conceded from teams that have played through us. Mostly crosses from the wings where our FB's have struggled - that will be addressed next season.

There are positives to come from a rubbish season and the club will address these this summer. We will be better next season.

 

[Talking Vulture]

The Moyes factor. Cautious, negavive Ned tactics have got us where we are. He was the same at everton - he's basically mirrored their results/perfomances here. It's alarming that he's still allowed to work here, given the fact that this squad is a lot better than Everton

 

[bishblaize]

As i've mentioned before, you look at some of the results when we have conceded silly late goals, flukes, deflections and daft errors,

The same can be said of every team.

Yes there are true flukes - players wrongly sent off, goals that were plainly offside, etc. But then there are things that just happen in football. Shots deflect into the net because you allowed the opposition to shoot and the defenders were weak in how they blocked it. Late goals happen because you lack the mentality to keep possession when the pressure is on, or get a rush of blood and counter attack instead of pushing slowly out. Penalties are given away because the defender lacked confidence and conviction in the challenge, and because you allowed the opposition in your penalty area.

These things go against average teams, not because they're unlucky, but because they're average. Very rarely do you look at the league's final placing and find that a team is miles away from where they deserve to be, simply down to luck.

We will be better next season.

We certainly will, since we'll improve the squad significantly. The question is, will we be better with Moyes next year than we would be with another manager?

 

[soapythecat]

We certainly will, since we'll improve the squad significantly. The question is, will we be better with Moyes next year than we would be with another manager?

I think Moyes will still be here next year, so yes, I think we will be better under him. He will have learnt more this season than any player in the squad.

 

[Mystry]

Also I don't think you can read too much into the differences into the home v away form. Our next 3 away games are against Newcastle, Everton and Southampton, where we only grabbed a draw and 2 losses in the respective home games, and compare that to the 3 home games left (Hull, Norwich and Sunderland, 3 away wins in respective fixtures). Think the home and away records will be pretty much identical apart from goal difference come the end, us winning the home games, winning or drawing 1 away and losing the other 2. This shows that its really not anything about teams thinking its a cup final at Old Trafford or anything, they're just outclassing us because they play more adventurous football and are more positive minded then us in those games so are more likely to get the result.

True but traditionally away games are harder than home ones, or at least that is the perceived notion so the form shouldn't break even in the end, the home form should be better than the away. Moyes does deserve some credit for our away form being among the best, though.

I don't know whether you can give Moyes and the players credit for the form against bottom clubs. It's true our form there is pretty impeccable but you could very easily rope in a few more clubs, at least up to 8th place and it gets a bit less impressive despite the expectation staying the same. I'd hazard a guess that the stark contrast is Moyes not knowing how to approach better teams without being defensive. We don't and to an extent can't play that way due to personal we have. The other and probably more significant problem is Moyes not knowing how to set up our attack. Our biggest problem, especially at home is probably scoring goals. All season long our attack has been pretty impotent, and against the better teams you are going to struggle to create chances and score even with a good attack. We could get away with it against the easier teams but against the top clubs it's been our downfall.

 

[stevoc]

I agree that i think our home away form will even out by the end of the season, we play everton,newcastle and southampton away can't see us winning all those. We have norwich, hull and sunderland at home which i can see us winning. I personally think having played more top 10 teams at home is skewing the perception of our away form.

Our struggles against the top half are obviously our real problem this season, though i don't think its acceptable the results we have had vs chelsea,liverpool and city they could maybe be forgivable in the grand scheme of things had we done better against the likes of spurs,everton,newcastle,southampton and stoke.

We have dropped 16 points and picked up only 5 in 7 games against these teams, those 16 points would see us sitting 2nd in the table right now a point behind liverpool and one ahead of chelsea, having played 2 games more than City, and looking a good bet to finish in the top 4 comfortably. If that were the case the majority of us would deem this an acceptable finish for our first season under a new manager.

So in my opinion this has been the crux of our struggles this season much more than our home form, most of the games against those 5 teams have been our most frustrating and baffling performances in a difficult season which is saying something.

If we can sort this out next season we should have no problem jumping straight back into the top 4, big if at this stage though.

 

[stevoc]

Could tonights performance against bayern maybe explain our poor form against top 10 sides this season. We looked well drilled defensively and even looked good on the counter in the second half.

Vidic said in his post match interview when asked why couldn't they put a performance like the one vs bayern against liverpool/city, he answered that liverpool were happy for united to have the ball. Against bayern we didnt have the ball we were happy to let them have possession.

Could our problems against top teams stem from moyes inexperience of setting out a team to take the initiative, we have heard interviews with everton players speaking about how their tactics now focus more on what they can do as opposed to stopping the other team.

Tonight showed us moyes is not as tactically clueless as he has lead us to believe at points this season. But he obviously would not play this way in the premier league or he would have done so last tuesday, i think he would know the fans don't mind these tactics in a one off in europe but wouldn't accept it against league teams every second week. So how does he fix this problem and be more proactive and get better results against top 10 sides?

 

[Snow]

The better teams are more organised and have better defenders which can cut out a 25 yard through ball from either Mata/Kagawa/Carrick. No forward movement = little to be done for defenders.

The lower teams aren't organised and we kill them off as seen against West Brom where 3 of the 4 goals wouldn't have been against better teams.

Funny, the team you use as your example is the only bottom 10 team that has beaten us this season.

 

[RoadTrip]

I would love to see corresponding statistics for Liverpool Arsenal City and Chelsea.​

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I would love to see corresponding statistics for Liverpool Arsenal City and Chelsea.​

Liverpool
Top half: W:09 D:02 L:04
Bottom half: W:13 D:03 L:01
Home form: W:14 D:01 L:01
Away form: W:08 D:04 L:04

Manchester City
Top half: W:10 D:03 L:02
Bottom Half: W:11 D:01 L:03
Home form: W:13 D:00 L:01
Away form: W:08 D:04 L:04

Arsenal
Top half: W:06 D:05 L:04
Bottom half: W:13 D:02 L:02
Home form: W:10 D:05 L:01
Away form: W:09 D:02 L:05

Chelsea
Top half: W:10 D:03 L:03
Bottom half: W:11 D:03 L:02
Home form: W:14 D:02 L:00
Away form: W:07 D:04 L:05

It proves that if you want to win a competitive league, you have to turn your home ground into a fortress. Arsenal are left behind in the title race although their away form is as good as City's and Arsenal's. Chelsea have the worst away record but they are still in the title race because no one can beat them at home.

I also believe that the stats Liverpool, Chelsea and City have against the top ten teams on the table show that the league isn't much better/stronger than last season. We are way worse than last season. Many people think Liverpool will win the title. Well, City are in great form right now and the only games the might drop points are against Everton and Liverpool. So, if Liverpool are going to become champions, they'll have to win all their games (including City) and draw with Chelsea. If this is the case, Liverpool's form in the second round will be 16-03-00! How's that for a "tough" league?

Could tonights performance against bayern maybe explain our poor form against top 10 sides this season. We looked well drilled defensively and even looked good on the counter in the second half.

Vidic said in his post match interview when asked why couldn't they put a performance like the one vs bayern against liverpool/city, he answered that liverpool were happy for united to have the ball. Against bayern we didnt have the ball we were happy to let them have possession.

Could our problems against top teams stem from moyes inexperience of setting out a team to take the initiative, we have heard interviews with everton players speaking about how their tactics now focus more on what they can do as opposed to stopping the other team.

Tonight showed us moyes is not as tactically clueless as he has lead us to believe at points this season. But he obviously would not play this way in the premier league or he would have done so last tuesday, i think he would know the fans don't mind these tactics in a one off in europe but wouldn't accept it against league teams every second week. So how does he fix this problem and be more proactive and get better results against top 10 sides?

Football nowadays is all about creating space in the final third. It you have a strong midfield and your defenders can maintain a high defensive line, you can play possession football, with short passes and try to control the tempo. If that's not possible, you can drop your lines deeper, invite the opponent into your half and then attack with pace, using quick forwards that can beat the defenders and wingers that can run with the ball. If you have the quality City, Barca or Bayern possess, you can go with the first option. Teams like Chelsea, Liverpool or Atletico have chosen the second option.

I never understood why Moyes tried to make us play possession football this season. It was not his philosophy at Everton and we certainly don't have the right players to be good in that style of football. In the last two games we seem to have changed our tactics (more direct passing, more pace when attacking). I hope we continue in that direction.

But this alone won't improve either our home form or our record against the top half teams. There has to be a strategy, a team identity that will guarantee us results even when we are not in form. Let me add something to the stats in your OP and show you what i mean:

Liverpool-Goals scored at home (minute)
00-15: 09
16-30: 10
31-45: 13
46-60: 08
61-75: 03
76-90: 03
Liverpool-Goals scored away from home (minute)
00-15: 04
16-30: 09
31-45: 08
46-60: 04
61-75: 05
76-90: 08

Liverpool have the "weakest" squad. They also like to play in a fast tempo, press high on the pitch and try to find their 3 very quick forwards with long balls. Of course you can't play like that for the whole 90 minutes. Rodgers knows that, so he wants his players to start every game "all guns blazing". Look at the stats, they are ridiculous (53 goals scored in the first half)!!! Their home games are practically over by halftime. They take advantage of the fact that they can press effectively and attack with pace. Yes, they don't possess the quality of the City team, so they try to finish their games "early".

Chelsea-Goals scored at home
00-15: 05
16-30: 07
31-45: 07
46-60: 05
61-75: 06
76-90: 09
Chelsea-Goals scored away from home
00-15: 02
16-30: 03
31-45: 03
46-60: 04
61-75: 05
76-90: 06

Mourinho is well known for creating strong, physical teams with excellent stamina levels. Chelsea could not be an exception. The majority of their goals comes at the end of each half. This pretty much explains why Jose focuses on his players' defensive duties so much. Chelsea's aim is to always be in the game and strike when the opponent is tired. Still, when playing at home they want to score during the first half and put themselves in the driver's seat. Of course the absence of a quality striker might cost them the title this season.

Manchester City-Goals scored at home
00-15: 05
16-30: 07
31-45: 09
46-60: 10
61-75: 07
76-90: 08
Manchester City-Goals scored away from home
00-15: 07
16-30: 04
31-45: 02
46-60: 08
61-75: 02
76-90: 09

They are the best team in the league. At the Etihad they can "destroy" any team. They like to dominate possession and when they have the ball it's very difficult for the other team to defend. By the 60th minute they seem to have the 3 points in the bag. We can see that when playing away from home, they try to score at the start of each half and not allow their opponents to park the bus.

Manchester United-Goals scored at home
00-15: 01
16-30: 05
31-45: 03
46-60: 05
61-75: 02
76-90: 06
Manchester United-Goals scored away from home
00-15: 04
16-30: 05
31-45: 06
46-60: 06
61-75: 05
76-90: 03

Away from home our defensive shape is better and our opponents allow us more space, plus we seem to be more concentrated. The quality of individual players like Rooney,RvP,Januzaj and Mata are enough to give us the points. Our home form is obviously our biggest problem. We struggle against the top half teams because we can't create many chances (believe it or not, only Crustal Palace have less shots on target than us). Things get worse when we play at OT, because we have to make things happen and we don't try to "finish" the games early like Liverpool and Chelsea. We don't have City's quality to play possession football and dominate play. Imo the game vs AV last Saturday was a step towards the right direction.

 

[stevoc]

It proves that if you want to win a competitive league, you have to turn your home ground into a fortress. Arsenal are left behind in the title race although their away form is as good as City's and Arsenal's. Chelsea have the worst away record but they are still in the title race because no one can beat them at home.

I also believe that the stats Liverpool, Chelsea and City have against the top ten teams on the table show that the league isn't much better/stronger than last season. We are way worse than last season. Many people think Liverpool will win the title. Well, City are in great form right now and the only games the might drop points are against Everton and Liverpool. So, if Liverpool are going to become champions, they'll have to win all their games (including City) and draw with Chelsea. If this is the case, Liverpool's form in the second round will be 16-03-00! How's that for a "tough" league?


Football nowadays is all about creating space in the final third. It you have a strong midfield and your defenders can maintain a high defensive line, you can play possession football, with short passes and try to control the tempo. If that's not possible, you can drop your lines deeper, invite the opponent into your half and then attack with pace, using quick forwards that can beat the defenders and wingers that can run with the ball. If you have the quality City, Barca or Bayern possess, you can go with the first option. Teams like Chelsea, Liverpool or Atletico have chosen the second option.

I never understood why Moyes tried to make us play possession football this season. It was not his philosophy at Everton and we certainly don't have the right players to be good in that style of football. In the last two games we seem to have changed our tactics (more direct passing, more pace when attacking). I hope we continue in that direction.

Great post some interesting stuff, i agree for most of the season in our struggles against top team and at home we do seem aimless as to what we are trying to do, as you say at first he tried to get us to press high and play possession but that was never going to happen with our midfield. And as you say hes now seems to be leaning towards more direct though im not sure we have enough pace for that either to be really effective.

We are good against bottom half teams where our quality counts, and away from home seems to suit moyes philosophy much more comfortably.

But at home and against top teams we do struggle creatively, i think at this stage this is because the style United should be adopting with the talent we have goes against Moyes natural instincts, and maybe he gets himself caught in two minds in how to set us up which trickles down to the players. Would explain some of our performances this season where we look confused as to what way we are trying to actually play.

Can he alter his own beliefs and philosophy i don't know, i can't think of any coaches at his age who have gone from defensive minded to attacking expansive football.

The stats you posted on the other teams in interesting also, really shows where we are falling behind this season.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Great post some interesting stuff, i agree for most of the season in our struggles against top team and at home we do seem aimless as to what we are trying to do, as you say at first he tried to get us to press high and play possession but that was never going to happen with our midfield. And as you say hes now seems to be leaning towards more direct though im not sure we have enough pace for that either to be really effective.

We are good against bottom half teams where our quality counts, and away from home seems to suit moyes philosophy much more comfortably.

But at home and against top teams we do struggle creatively, i think at this stage this is because the style United should be adopting with the talent we have goes against Moyes natural instincts, and maybe he gets himself caught in two minds in how to set us up which trickles down to the players. Would explain some of our performances this season where we look confused as to what way we are trying to actually play.

Can he alter his own beliefs and philosophy i don't know, i can't think of any coaches at his age who have gone from defensive minded to attacking expansive football.

The stats you posted on the other teams in interesting also, really shows where we are falling behind this season.

I fully agree. That was my main concern when Moyes was appointed. I never expected him to be as adventurous as SAF in his approach, but he needs to understand that when we play at OT, we are the ones who must ask the questions and try to make things happen. Imo our weakest title-winning squad was the 2010-11 one. We won the title with just 80 points (23-11-04 record). Our home record was 18-01-00. Do you know how many times we found ourselves a goal behind at home? Only once, during the last game of the season against Blackpool.

As for the change of style in the last couple of games, i guess Sir Alex must've had a long discussion with his protege. The best defensive plan won't do anything for you if you can't make your presence "felt" in the final third. Look at yesterday's game. Although we defended well, we couldn't exchange more than 2 passes and Bayern looked like they were going to score sooner or later. Welbeck's clear chance changed that. It was the third time he and Rooney had found a way to beat Bayern's defense. We forced them to become more cautious. Lahm stayed back keeping an eye on Rooney, Alaba also stayed back so they could have at least 3 players at the back when we had the ball.

Moyes must find a way to take all that he can from his current squad. He must find a winning pattern without sacrificing the principles of his football philosophy. It seems SAF/the board still think that he can. Vidic was practically saying: "All season we are trying to change the way we play and we keep failing. Can we try and play more like we used to when we were winning things?"

 

[stevoc]

Thought i would update this with the recent results up to the end of the season for anyone who was interested first time around.

Form vs Home & Away

01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea------------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace------------02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool
03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion-----03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton-------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City----------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal-------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 0 - 1 Everton-------------------07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham
08 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United----------08 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
09 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United----------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham----------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City-------------11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea
12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City---------------12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City
13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham-------------------13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool------------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City---------- 15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
16 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa----------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham
17 MU 4 - 0 Norwich-------------------17 MU 4 - 0 Newcastle
18 MU 0 - 1 Sunderland----------------18 MU 0 - 2 Everton
19 MU 3 - 1 Hull City-------------------19 MU 1 - 1 Southampton

P: 19 W: 09 D: 03 L: 07------------------P: 19 W: 10 D: 04 L: 05
GF: 29 GA: 21 GD: +08-------------------GF: 35 GA: 22 GD: +13
30 PTS From possible 57 PTS-------------34 PTS From possible 57 PTS


Form vs Top 10 & Bottom 10

01 MU 0 - 0 Chelsea-----------------01 MU 4 - 1 Swansea City
02 MU 0 - 1 Liverpool----------------02 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
03 MU 1 - 4 Manchester City---------03 MU 1 - 2 West Bromwich Albion
04 MU 1 - 1 Southampton------------04 MU 2 - 1 Sunderland
05 MU 3 - 2 Stoke City---------------05 MU 3 - 1 Fulham
06 MU 1 - 0 Arsenal------------------06 MU 2 - 2 Cardiff City
07 MU 2 - 2 Tottenham--------------07 MU 3 - 0 Aston Villa
08 MU 0 - 1 Everton-----------------08 MU 3 - 1 West Ham United
09 MU 0 - 1 Newcastle United-------09 MU 3 - 2 Hull City
10 MU 1 - 2 Tottenham--------------10 MU 1 - 0 Norwich City
11 MU 1 - 3 Chelsea-----------------11 MU 2 - 0 Swansea City
12 MU 1 - 2 Stoke City--------------12 MU 2 - 0 Cardiff City
13 MU 0 - 0 Arsenal-----------------13 MU 2 - 2 Fulham
14 MU 0 - 3 Liverpool----------------14 MU 2 - 0 Crystal Palace
15 MU 0 - 3 Manchester City--------15 MU 3 - 0 West Brom
16 MU 4 - 0 Newcastle---------------16 MU 2 - 0 West Ham
17 MU 0 - 2 Everton------------------17 MU 4 - 1 Aston Villa
18 MU 1 - 1 Southampton-----------18 MU 4 - 0 Norwich
----------------------------------------19 MU 0 - 1 Sunderland
----------------------------------------20 MU 3 - 1 Hull City

P: 18 W: 03 D: 05 L: 10------------------P: 20 W: 16 D: 02 L: 02
GF: 16 GA: 28 GD: -12-------------------GF: 48 GA: 15 GD: +33
14 PTS From possible 54 PTS------------50 PTS From possible 60 PTS

So the Home & Away form pretty much evened out by the end of the season as some of us suspected, granted we did at times look a better side away from home but i personally think that may have been down to being the away side suiting Moyes tactics, where at home teams were happy to sit back and we had real problems with creativity and breaking teams down all season.

I think these results lists point to our real problem this season (imo) not being our home form but our form vs the Top 10 which when you look at it is shocking. 14 pts from a possible 54 is just not good enough.

We sit second in the form table vs bottom 10 clubs behind only Arsenal, our form against these sides is what you would expect from a team who regularly comes in the Top 4:

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2013-2014/versus-bottom-half/full

Conversely we are 10th in the form table vs the Top 10, behind Sunderland, Southampton & Stoke while sitting on the same points total as the likes of Newcastle, West Brom, Villa & Norwich (who were fecking relegated) which says it all really.

http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2013-2014/versus-top-half/full

So i think the question is why were we so poor against the Top half of the table?

 

[jojojo]

That's an interesting update. It confirms pretty much how the season felt - all those "false dawns" that when you went back and look again, were mostly down to who we were playing rather than how we were playing.

I'll be back when I've got time to respond properly.