Education reform: Government to unveil new technical qualification in bid to ease UK skills shortage

Bury Red

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Education system to be overhauled with new ‘T-levels’ to plug post-Brexit skills gap

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-multi/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



As someone who can recall the AVCE and AS/A2 roll-out, i am inclined to be somewhat cautious. That being said, the status quo is by no means adequate, be it the secondary/FE level, or the culture surrounding degrees.
As someone who dwells daily in the shite spouted by PPE graduates of Oxford I've far more than caution in their ability to select anything to do with future technical education, let alone the idea of them reducing 13,000 course down to 15. I know you're sick of experts but do you really want nowt but idiots for company because this road certainly don't look like no technological freeway.
 

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How about the government make education private and the schools themselves can plug the skills gap? They could do it a lot better if they had self-determination.
 

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All kids should leave school aged 12 and begin a program of intense military training. Then, and only then will the older generation stop moaning.
 

devilish

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All kids should leave school aged 12 and begin a program of intense military training. Then, and only then will the older generation stop moaning.
They need to pass from the same durress baby boomers passed like cheap housing, free tertiary education, jobs for life and great pensions
 

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How about the government make education private and the schools themselves can plug the skills gap? They could do it a lot better if they had self-determination.
Please tell me you are being sarcastic?
 

buckooo1978

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How about the government make education private and the schools themselves can plug the skills gap? They could do it a lot better if they had self-determination.
privatisation, capitalism, competition has destroyed education and has resulted in failing schools, teachers working under incredible pressure and with a workload that means that they can't actually focus on the job they are employed to do - it is just as bad at University where only those who can afford it can attend

how about investing in all schools and supporting teachers and kids
 

notcool

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Please tell me you are being sarcastic?
Nope. It's arrogant to think that a few people can solve every problem. If you decentralise things, people will focus on their own little thing and everything will get done much quicker/better. What's your problem with it?

privatisation, capitalism, competition has destroyed education and has resulted in failing schools, teachers working under incredible pressure and with a workload that means that they can't actually focus on the job they are employed to do - it is just as bad at University where only those who can afford it can attend
Seems to me we've had a socialistic system for a long time so I don't know why you are laying that at capitalism's feet. University is terrible too but that isn't down to privatisation - it's down to the opposite: the government being involved. They give out loans to people who don't have to pay them back so the people who do pay it back have to pay more. It also leads to a skills shortage because people people with easy money (government loans) take worthless degrees (degrees that won't lead to gainful employment) and come out lacking skills.

how about investing in all schools and supporting teachers and kids
If all schools were private, the profits could be used to invest in the schools. Government schools don't have profits and so can't invest. That's why they're underfunded.
 

Javi

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[1] Nope. It's arrogant to think that a few people can solve every problem. If you decentralise things, people will focus on their own little thing and everything will get done much quicker/better. What's your problem with it?


[2] Seems to me we've had a socialistic system for a long time so I don't know why you are laying that at capitalism's feet. University is terrible too but that isn't down to privatisation - it's down to the opposite: the government being involved. They give out loans to people who don't have to pay them back so the people who do pay it back have to pay more. It also leads to a skills shortage because people people with easy money (government loans) take worthless degrees (degrees that won't lead to gainful employment) and come out lacking skills.


[3] If all schools were private, the profits could be used to invest in the schools. Government schools don't have profits and so can't invest. That's why they're underfunded.
1. What are you exactly suggesting; that the govt. pulls out and just let the market «happen»? So every institution that will offer eduction will do it strictly for profit (will adress this at [3] also) so that students need to cover for the entire costs sooner or later (in case of student debt). This will significantly increase the entry barrier into education and therefore, if anything, further fuel the skill shortage. Great solution.

2. So University is terrible, because the govt. offers loans to the «wrong» people? Err ... ok. Leaving aside your obvious disgust for anything remotely related to the term freedom this is just an inapt point of view. However just for clarification, a loan implies the obligation to pay back, how come they don't have to pay back?

3. The idea of a corporation isn't to keep profit inside the business, but rather to pay it to shareholders. What makes you think they will reinvest into the schools?
 

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privatisation, capitalism, competition has destroyed education and has resulted in failing schools, teachers working under incredible pressure and with a workload that means that they can't actually focus on the job they are employed to do - it is just as bad at University where only those who can afford it can attend

how about investing in all schools and supporting teachers and kids
No idea how it works in the UK, mind you, but here it's the red-tape, parents being obnoxious cnuts who cannot raise their kids and faulty core curriculum that's hurting the teachers the most I believe. Not that I agree with schools' privatisation, mind you.
 

buckooo1978

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.If all schools were private, the profits could be used to invest in the schools. Government schools don't have profits and so can't invest. That's why they're underfunded.
i dont understand you here.....

firstly if schools were private the Government wouldn't be making money....even the idea of a school with a profit making purpose is ridiculous....who pays for them? parents who are struggling to make ends meet?

the purpose of education is to help people develop both academically and personally - if schools were privatised how would this purpose be met when an organisation is aimed at cutting costs and maximising productivity/profit.

there is a clear agenda with Government policy on schools- set unrealistic targets, pressurise teachers to get results - cut funding - slam schools as failing - try to turn into academies. these havent improved education. have a read of what professionals think of this.

its simple for me.... if our children are important then invest in them, if you are suggesting state run private schools Im not sure how you think this will work

the whole current system stinks and its no wonder the education system is failing and teachers are leaving a job they go into with great intentions but are worn down by Government policy
 

buckooo1978

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No idea how it works in the UK, mind you, but here it's the red-tape, parents being obnoxious cnuts who cannot raise their kids and faulty core curriculum that's hurting the teachers the most I believe. Not that I agree with schools' privatisation, mind you.
yes there's issues with bureaucracy/administration here too.... a friend in an English department was seen to be failing for not meeting a few targets.... this is despite the department achieving 78% A-C which given the school is outstanding

as for parents, as a teacher we deal with massive social problems.... we live in very very troubling times though..... the amount of kids (particularly girls) suffering anxiety would frighten you - i think we need to place more focus on looking after the mental health of our kids rather than preparing them for a job from age 11.

the Finnish system is widely regarded as one of the best and they have a far less rigid and competitive edication system with a focus on letting younf people develop rather than setting targets they must meet then hammering teachers when they dont.
 

Wibble

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Nope. It's arrogant to think that a few people can solve every problem. If you decentralise things, people will focus on their own little thing and everything will get done much quicker/better. What's your problem with it?
Schools are to educate not merely to train warm bodies for industry. And call me a bluff old traditionalist but I suspect that teachers are probably the best trained people to actually teach. Driving education by profit has already been an utter disaster (unless you are rich) and further privatisation will be worse still. Public school funding is being stripped in ost countries by right wing (and other governments) feeding public funds to private schools to make sure "people like us" get the benefit. Private schools should not get $1 of public funding and the saving channeled into making public school education better and available to all. If you then choose to pay the full economic cost of sending your kid to private school then you are free to decline the quality option you have been offered.


Seems to me we've had a socialistic system for a long time so I don't know why you are laying that at capitalism's feet. University is terrible too but that isn't down to privatisation - it's down to the opposite: the government being involved. They give out loans to people who don't have to pay them back so the people who do pay it back have to pay more. It also leads to a skills shortage because people people with easy money (government loans) take worthless degrees (degrees that won't lead to gainful employment) and come out lacking skills.
What has this got to do with privatising schools?

Although the push to private colleges offering training and job skills in many places around the world has be the major cause of people taking marginally useless courses on public loan schemes. All driven by right wing agendas to privatise education (and put dollars into the pockets of "people like us" at the expense of education).

If all schools were private, the profits could be used to invest in the schools. Government schools don't have profits and so can't invest. That's why they're underfunded.
In most countries private schools typically teach using government funds and use fees to pay for the luxury like swimming pools and infrastructure. They are using out tax dollar to create a social club for the elite and the evidence suggests that private schools, on average get the same or worse results as public schools in similar socio-economic areas. What you pay for is great facilities and membership in the old-boys club that will get you internships and the like after school. All about maintaining and further developing privilege and widening the social divide between the has and have nots. No wonder social mobility is going backwards in most countries.
 

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yes there's issues with bureaucracy/administration here too.... a friend in an English department was seen to be failing for not meeting a few targets.... this is despite the department achieving 78% A-C which given the school is outstanding

as for parents, as a teacher we deal with massive social problems.... we live in very very troubling times though..... the amount of kids (particularly girls) suffering anxiety would frighten you - i think we need to place more focus on looking after the mental health of our kids rather than preparing them for a job from age 11.

the Finnish system is widely regarded as one of the best and they have a far less rigid and competitive edication system with a focus on letting younf people develop rather than setting targets they must meet then hammering teachers when they dont.
Yes.

Standardised testing will be back to the womb soon. All it does is give governments excuses to do stupid things that they wanted to do in the first place. While traumatising little kids to the detriment of their performance later in their education.

The Scandanavia countries have a much better handle on how to educate kids. The antithesis of privatisation, competition and exam results being all important.
 

notcool

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2. So University is terrible, because the govt. offers loans to the «wrong» people? Err ... ok. Leaving aside your obvious disgust for anything remotely related to the term freedom this is just an inapt point of view. However just for clarification, a loan implies the obligation to pay back, how come they don't have to pay back?
They offer loans to everyone and that includes people who won't be able pay it back. More government involvement means less freedom to me. I don't think I said they don't have to pay, just that they won't. But in the UK, if you are not above a certain level of income, you don't have to pay a thing. And in the US, students get money they wouldn't otherwise have gotten if they government wasn't involved. This means they take degrees that don't allow them to pay off their loans. Both of these things mean that students have less money to invest (in the UK, you're disincentivised from going above a certain income band and in the US, you just don't have the money) and society suffers. And the loans not being paid back means that new students have to pay more.

3. The idea of a corporation isn't to keep profit inside the business, but rather to pay it to shareholders. What makes you think they will reinvest into the schools?
It is to make profit but that implies investment. If a competitor invests and you do not, they will have the better product and you will lose out.

1. What are you exactly suggesting; that the govt. pulls out and just let the market «happen»? So every institution that will offer eduction will do it strictly for profit (will adress this at [3] also) so that students need to cover for the entire costs sooner or later (in case of student debt). This will significantly increase the entry barrier into education and therefore, if anything, further fuel the skill shortage. Great solution.
Students/parents have to cover it now through taxes. The only difference is that it will cost less (see above). This lowers the entry barrier into education, not raises it.
 

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They offer loans to everyone and that includes people who won't be able pay it back. More government involvement means less freedom to me. I don't think I said they don't have to pay, just that they won't. But in the UK, if you are not above a certain level of income, you don't have to pay a thing. And in the US, students get money they wouldn't otherwise have gotten if they government wasn't involved. This means they take degrees that don't allow them to pay off their loans. Both of these things mean that students have less money to invest (in the UK, you're disincentivised from going above a certain income band and in the US, you just don't have the money) and society suffers. And the loans not being paid back means that new students have to pay more.
£21000 i believe. The threshold to which you have to start paying back your loan is £21000. Thats lower then most entry level graduate jobs in manchester.

Loans get wiped within X amount of time, and you also dont pay them back if you move away from the UK. Its not exactly rare that someone doesnt pay back their loan in full, expected actually.

You come off a bit snobby aswell tbh. You say the problem with university is people taking loans to do shit degrees and have no skills. Thats a bit ridiculous and ignorant.

Just because someone didnt go to a redbrick university and took engineering, doesnt mean theyre useless. Pure elitest crap.
 

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Loans get wiped within X amount of time, and you also dont pay them back if you move away from the UK. Its not exactly rare that someone doesnt pay back their loan in full, expected actually.
Which means that some people aren't paying for their degree, which raises the price for the degree.

You come off a bit snobby aswell tbh. You say the problem with university is people taking loans to do shit degrees and have no skills. Thats a bit ridiculous and ignorant.
I didn't say that. But if I say that a degree is bad, I'm saying it in a cold financial sense. I'm just saying it's a bad investment. And a lot of them are. If I take out a loan to buy chocolate bars in bulk and I'm not able to make enough money to pay back the loan, cover additional expenses and have enough left to make it worth my time, I've made a bad investment. Same with getting a college degree.

And I'm not criticising students. I'm criticising the system that encourages this to happen.

Just because someone didnt go to a redbrick university and took engineering, doesnt mean theyre useless. Pure elitest crap.
I don't think they're useless, I just think some degrees aren't useful. But let's flip that. How do you think a person feels if they've done a degree and they can't put it to any good use? Pretty useless, I would say.
 

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I don't think they're useless, I just think some degrees aren't useful. But let's flip that. How do you think a person feels if they've done a degree and they can't put it to any good use? Pretty useless, I would say.
I'll make a longer reply if I can be arsed. But you do realise, that you are measuring putting to "good use" only in economical terms (salary)? My guess is that when measuring in immaterial terms statistically they put it to equal good use (in their opinion, the only one that counts) as all the others.
 

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I'll make a longer reply if I can be arsed. But you do realise, that you are measuring putting to "good use" only in economical terms (salary)? My guess is that when measuring in immaterial terms statistically they put it to equal good use (in their opinion, the only one that counts) as all the others.
Good use? In terms of making money? Or just in terms of making money? Can't say I have much time for immaterials.
 

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Nope. It's arrogant to think that a few people can solve every problem. If you decentralise things, people will focus on their own little thing and everything will get done much quicker/better. What's your problem with it?

It also leads to a skills shortage because people people with easy money (government loans) take worthless degrees (degrees that won't lead to gainful employment) and come out lacking skills.
Privatization is bad because in the end you will end up with a system that benefits the wealthy and suppress the poor and it just reinforces social stratification. For poor people today, getting a decent education is the golden ticket to a better life and taking that away is going backwards.

From a completely pragmatic view though you have a point: A fair people of people in government funded schools take "worthless degrees" simply because there is not any jobs available. Then again, education imo is not only about learning skills that will land you a job, but also growing as a human and learning things like critical thinking. Also look at the US. Illiteracy rates is scarily high in certain areas and it also leads to people like Trump being elected president.

The problem all over Europe in the current "intellectual climate" is that academia has so much higher status than manual labor. For example in Norway, the shortage in carpenters, plumbers and electricians is covered by short term immigration workers because there is just no way we would have been able to cover that demand ourselves.
 

notcool

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i dont understand you here.....

firstly if schools were private the Government wouldn't be making money....even the idea of a school with a profit making purpose is ridiculous....who pays for them? parents who are struggling to make ends meet?

the purpose of education is to help people develop both academically and personally - if schools were privatised how would this purpose be met when an organisation is aimed at cutting costs and maximising productivity/profit.

there is a clear agenda with Government policy on schools- set unrealistic targets, pressurise teachers to get results - cut funding - slam schools as failing - try to turn into academies. these havent improved education. have a read of what professionals think of this.

its simple for me.... if our children are important then invest in them, if you are suggesting state run private schools Im not sure how you think this will work

the whole current system stinks and its no wonder the education system is failing and teachers are leaving a job they go into with great intentions but are worn down by Government policy
I mean that the schools are wholly private: the government takes no role at all. It's wholly an individual that invest and who reaps the rewards. The people who pay for them are the parents, who have more money because of less taxes.

The purpose would be met because parents would identify that purpose and pick schools based on how well they met it.

There isn't an agenda. That's just what government is. They don't make a profit so can't expand to meet demand and this leads to there being enough teachers (which means teachers are overworked too - the government's fault) to get good results. A lot of Brits criticise American healthcare but their waiting times are so much better than those in Britain. That's because it's not socialised. It's not about the government having an agenda (which is quite fantastical of you, may I say) but about them not having enough money.
 

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Yes.

Standardised testing will be back to the womb soon. All it does is give governments excuses to do stupid things that they wanted to do in the first place. While traumatising little kids to the detriment of their performance later in their education.

The Scandanavia countries have a much better handle on how to educate kids. The antithesis of privatisation, competition and exam results being all important.
That's not entirely true though, after they introduced international tests and national tests in the wake of it, it created a fecked up competitive climate where teachers and especially principals where under immense pressure of producing results among students as young as 10. The problem though is that the ones on the top (politicians both national and local) knows feck all about education in general and only care about results.

The country everyone should try to emulate when it comes to education is actually Finland.
 

notcool

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Privatization is bad because in the end you will end up with a system that benefits the wealthy and suppress the poor and it just reinforces social stratification. For poor people today, getting a decent education is the golden ticket to a better life and taking that away is going backwards.
I don't see why this would be the case. Privatisation is good for everyone. There have been lots of cases of government run services not being able to be paid for and the private sector stepping in and turning them around. Would taking over food production be good for everyone too? Poor people aren't able to afford food!

From a completely pragmatic view though you have a point: A fair people of people in government funded schools take "worthless degrees" simply because there is not any jobs available. Then again, education imo is not only about learning skills that will land you a job, but also growing as a human and learning things like critical thinking. Also look at the US. Illiteracy rates is scarily high in certain areas and it also leads to people like Trump being elected president.
Which is basically what it means for a degree to be 'worthless'. It's like you think those two things are different and it's only there being no jobs which makes the degrees worthless, as though there could be a case where you have 'worthless' degrees but enough jobs for those degrees to be applied to.
 

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@notcool


I don't want to get into a long debate but I have 3 questions: do you support an in-principle meritocracy, and do you support equality of opportunity, or do you think that the maximising total utility of current society requires absolute non-intervention?
 

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That's not entirely true though, after they introduced international tests and national tests in the wake of it, it created a fecked up competitive climate where teachers and especially principals where under immense pressure of producing results among students as young as 10. The problem though is that the ones on the top (politicians both national and local) knows feck all about education in general and only care about results.

The country everyone should try to emulate when it comes to education is actually Finland.
Finland is a Scandinavian country. Sounds like we are agreeing anyway.
 

buckooo1978

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I mean that the schools are wholly private: the government takes no role at all. It's wholly an individual that invest and who reaps the rewards. The people who pay for them are the parents, who have more money because of less taxes.

The purpose would be met because parents would identify that purpose and pick schools based on how well they met it.

There isn't an agenda. That's just what government is. They don't make a profit so can't expand to meet demand and this leads to there being enough teachers (which means teachers are overworked too - the government's fault) to get good results. A lot of Brits criticise American healthcare but their waiting times are so much better than those in Britain. That's because it's not socialised. It's not about the government having an agenda (which is quite fantastical of you, may I say) but about them not having enough money.
i totally disagree with your viewpoint.... how many parents could afford to fund a school? you are talking about the elite there. its clearly not a viable solution for the majority of gifted kids.... basically any smart kid who hasnt a silver spoon in their gob need not apply....shouldnt a developed country run education for all and opportunity available on merit?? shouldn't education be fair??

on your second point you are wrong again....its the state who place the massive workload in the form of paperwork, administration and endless box ticking exercises so we can show we did something - this to me is borne out an inherent distrust of professionals who are trying to do the best for kids in 99.9999% of cases...... this workload is driving talented people out of the job - have a read of this - plenty of articles of this nature

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....plan-leave-five-years-survey-workload-england

the solution is simple - invest in our young people, run an education system as a meritocracy and you will develop the leaders of tomorrow
 

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i totally disagree with your viewpoint.... how many parents could afford to fund a school? you are talking about the elite there. its clearly not a viable solution for the majority of gifted kids.... basically any smart kid who hasnt a silver spoon in their gob need not apply....shouldnt a developed country run education for all and opportunity available on merit?? shouldn't education be fair??
You're assuming that people won't have more money to spend because of less taxes and that if all schools were private, the cost wouldn't be less. As it is now, it's the elite who are able to spend taxes AND then send their kids to a private school. It's the way it is now which is unfair.

on your second point you are wrong again....its the state who place the massive workload in the form of paperwork, administration and endless box ticking exercises so we can show we did something - this to me is borne out an inherent distrust of professionals who are trying to do the best for kids in 99.9999% of cases...... this workload is driving talented people out of the job - have a read of this - plenty of articles of this nature
Maybe you're right.
 

notcool

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I don't want to get into a long debate but I have 3 questions: do you support an in-principle meritocracy, and do you support equality of opportunity, or do you think that the maximising total utility of current society requires absolute non-intervention?
For the last one I'm gonna say yes. For the others, I will say I don't think government involvement means their negation.
 

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How about the government make education private and the schools themselves can plug the skills gap? They could do it a lot better if they had self-determination.
A few points to what you've said:

1) Why exactly do you think the 21k trough needed to start paying back student loans disincentives people from better jobs? Do you think that people purposely try to earn a solid 20k for decades before the government wipes the debt?

2) Why do you think that private companies or company would care about either the individual education of the children or the job market as a whole as opposed to not making as much money as possible? And what would prevent them being (more) susceptible to special interests who are willing to put large amounts of money into the school?

3) Do you think the government would set the curriculum and exams etc in this scenario or is each school literally an island?

4) The reason British people mock the American healthcare system is that previously, there were approximately 20% of the population without access to health care. This meant they either could not go or went bankrupt trying to pay off bills after they had gone. Which is abhorrent really to most people. There's no doubt it's the best system in the world if you have lots of money.
 

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I don't see why this would be the case. Privatisation is good for everyone. There have been lots of cases of government run services not being able to be paid for and the private sector stepping in and turning them around. Would taking over food production be good for everyone too? Poor people aren't able to afford food!


Which is basically what it means for a degree to be 'worthless'. It's like you think those two things are different and it's only there being no jobs which makes the degrees worthless, as though there could be a case where you have 'worthless' degrees but enough jobs for those degrees to be applied to.
No it is not. That sentence is not even remotely true. Privatization is good for entrepreneurs with capital, it's good for people with money, but it fecks the poor. In theory capitalism sounds nice: Competition drives prices down and increases the quality of the service. Communism also sounds nice in theory: Abolish the classes, everyone gets their share. We both know though that neither of those works as good in practice as in theory.

As several people have said here: If you privatize something the people running it are ultimately in it for the profit and even if they were the most idealistic people in existence and only sought to break even you would have two options: 1. It's super cheap so everyone could afford it, which would make it a really shit service. 2. It's more expensive which means a large portion of the population can't afford it.

By the way, almost all private schools receive handsome federal/state payouts but tuition fees have gone so much up the last years that only the upper middle class and up can afford it. You then get a system where the wealthy kids gets a premium education and goes onto get a well paying job and at the same time you have hordes of unskilled laborers who will have to fight over the scraps. Not only does this hinder social mobility it also keeps the wages for unskilled labor artificially low because there is so much competition for the jobs. Right wingers like to blame the immigrants, but if the national workforce is highly skilled/educated the pressure for these jobs is much less severe.

Then you have secondary, non economic effects like adults in developed countries not having basic skills in things like math and reading. Having a lot of people who can't even read or write is NOT a recipe for a functioning society and i'd much rather have a couple of people with "useless" art degrees working in retail than someone who can't properly read.

Finland is a Scandinavian country. Sounds like we are agreeing anyway.
Not trying to be pedantic here, but Finland is not a Scandinavian country (Norway, Sweden and Denmark are) Finland along with Iceland and the three others make up the Nordic countries. May sound like splitting hairs here, but Finland are better than the Scandinavian countries in education by quite a large margin and often top world wide rankings along with countries like Japan and South Korea, while "we" are pretty average even by European standards.

How they did it is complicated, but they basically made/kept teaching a well respected and well paid occupation, which in turn kept it's high status and made sure the brightest minds sought to apply for it.

Edit: They also reduced the amount of bureaucratic bullshit teachers had to deal with, gave teachers much more freedom in curriculum and how they presented it and maybe most importantly almost completely abolished competitive testing among students.
 

notcool

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1) Why exactly do you think the 21k trough needed to start paying back student loans disincentives people from better jobs? Do you think that people purposely try to earn a solid 20k for decades before the government wipes the debt?
I don't think it disincentives them but since the reward is less, the incentive is less.

2) Why do you think that private companies or company would care about either the individual education of the children or the job market as a whole as opposed to not making as much money as possible? And what would prevent them being (more) susceptible to special interests who are willing to put large amounts of money into the school?
I think that schools would have more profit from having more students, which comes from having a better education. I don't see why profit is a dirty word. If I'm making cars and I make them significantly safer than my competitor, won't I sell more than him? It benefits me to do good for the people I am serving.

Parents would choose to not send their children a school that was influenced by special interests, something they can't do with government schools.

3) Do you think the government would set the curriculum and exams etc in this scenario or is each school literally an island?
Whatever they wanted to do.

4) The reason British people mock the American healthcare system is that previously, there were approximately 20% of the population without access to health care. This meant they either could not go or went bankrupt trying to pay off bills after they had gone. Which is abhorrent really to most people. There's no doubt it's the best system in the world if you have lots of money.
I'm not trying to defend their system, I'm trying to say that it has some good points. But I will say that it's insurance that people don't have access to, not healthcare. And also that the government is involved in insurance there too so it could be the government's fault for high prices.

You know that the USA makes most of the advances in new drugs? That's because of their system. Socialism distributes the wealth in society more 'fairly' but it's capitalism that creates that wealth. People want to take care of poor people but we'd all be a lot poorer if we didn't allow people to be free and invest and make money.
 

Wibble

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No it is not. That sentence is not even remotely true. Privatization is good for entrepreneurs with capital, it's good for people with money, but it fecks the poor. In theory capitalism sounds nice: Competition drives prices down and increases the quality of the service. Communism also sounds nice in theory: Abolish the classes, everyone gets their share. We both know though that neither of those works as good in practice as in theory.

As several people have said here: If you privatize something the people running it are ultimately in it for the profit and even if they were the most idealistic people in existence and only sought to break even you would have two options: 1. It's super cheap so everyone could afford it, which would make it a really shit service. 2. It's more expensive which means a large portion of the population can't afford it.

By the way, almost all private schools receive handsome federal/state payouts but tuition fees have gone so much up the last years that only the upper middle class and up can afford it. You then get a system where the wealthy kids gets a premium education and goes onto get a well paying job and at the same time you have hordes of unskilled laborers who will have to fight over the scraps. Not only does this hinder social mobility it also keeps the wages for unskilled labor artificially low because there is so much competition for the jobs. Right wingers like to blame the immigrants, but if the national workforce is highly skilled/educated the pressure for these jobs is much less severe.

Then you have secondary, non economic effects like adults in developed countries not having basic skills in things like math and reading. Having a lot of people who can't even read or write is NOT a recipe for a functioning society and i'd much rather have a couple of people with "useless" art degrees working in retail than someone who can't properly read.



Not trying to be pedantic here, but Finland is not a Scandinavian country (Norway, Sweden and Denmark are) Finland along with Iceland and the three others make up the Nordic countries. May sound like splitting hairs here, but Finland are better than the Scandinavian countries in education by quite a large margin and often top world wide rankings along with countries like Japan and South Korea, while "we" are pretty average even by European standards.

How they did it is complicated, but they basically made/kept teaching a well respected and well paid occupation, which in turn kept it's high status and made sure the brightest minds sought to apply for it.

Edit: They also reduced the amount of bureaucratic bullshit teachers had to deal with, gave teachers much more freedom in curriculum and how they presented it and maybe most importantly almost completely abolished competitive testing among students.
Scandanavia is sometimes defined as the three you mention and sometimes including all Nordic countries https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

And agreed about Finland having the best educational model.

Places like Korea and Japan achieve good results in testing largely by high pressure rote learning which might produce good test scores but is at the expense of more useful skills like problem solving and critical.and creative thinking.
 
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notcool

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No it is not. That sentence is not even remotely true. Privatization is good for entrepreneurs with capital, it's good for people with money, but it fecks the poor. In theory capitalism sounds nice: Competition drives prices down and increases the quality of the service.
Yes, is is. If entrepreneurs make money, they do it from creating jobs. Then with the capital they've made, they can invest in the same thing to create more jobs or invest in something else to make more jobs (something which the government, as it doesn't make any money, can't do).

As several people have said here: If you privatize something the people running it are ultimately in it for the profit and even if they were the most idealistic people in existence and only sought to break even you would have two options: 1. It's super cheap so everyone could afford it, which would make it a really shit service. 2. It's more expensive which means a large portion of the population can't afford it.
I don't see why this would be the case. Why would it all be the same?

By the way, almost all private schools receive handsome federal/state payouts but tuition fees have gone so much up the last years that only the upper middle class and up can afford it. You then get a system where the wealthy kids gets a premium education and goes onto get a well paying job and at the same time you have hordes of unskilled laborers who will have to fight over the scraps. Not only does this hinder social mobility it also keeps the wages for unskilled labor artificially low because there is so much competition for the jobs. Right wingers like to blame the immigrants, but if the national workforce is highly skilled/educated the pressure for these jobs is much less severe.
Well, I didn't mean private as in those that were getting state funding but then chose how to spend that funding. I meant schools that completely funded by the parents. I suppose I should use independent to describe it instead.

I will repeat that if the government wasn't involved, independent schools would be affordable for all. A bigger market will drive the cost down. And it's only the government being involved that means rich kids get better education: their parents are the only ones who can pay both taxes and go to a privately funded school.
 

Bury Red

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@notcool

Do you know what proportion of British kids have parents and even grandparents who have never worked and who have no formal qualifications?

Do you know how many kids drop out of formal education before the age of 16, let alone the legal mandatory education age of 18?

Have you been in a school where the parents will never back the school or teachers despite the blatant evidence of what their juvenile delinquent has done, who will physically and verbally abuse teaching staff and who will do nothing to prevent their offspring truanting, drinking, taking drugs or most worryingly having kids of their own?

Do you really imagine those parents who refuse to support the schools as they exist now and who pay zero taxes as they exist on welfare would put their hands in their pockets to pay for the education of their children? How much do you think that education would be worth to those kids?

Do we just let the dropouts go (and it's 10-20% of society we're talking about here) and then pay the costs through our taxes in welfare bills and policing later on or would the majority of parents who care about their children's education be expected to stump up the extra money to pay for the kids who will most likely hinder their children's learning, bully them and try to lead them astray?

Our society already has a huge social rift between the haves and the have nots which has led to the increasing skills gap, the profit driven system you would have us subscribe to would only serve to further those divides.

Personally I'd take the opposite approach and abolish all private and grammar education and properly fund the state system. If you want your child to do better and are willing to pay for it, then you should be putting your money and your support in terms of time and effort into the same schools as everyone else and raising the standards of the whole of society, not trying to build a wall around you and yours and feck the rest.
 

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Yes, is is. If entrepreneurs make money, they do it from creating jobs. Then with the capital they've made, they can invest in the same thing to create more jobs or invest in something else to make more jobs (something which the government, as it doesn't make any money, can't do).

Well, I didn't mean private as in those that were getting state funding but then chose how to spend that funding. I meant schools that completely funded by the parents. I suppose I should use independent to describe it instead.

I will repeat that if the government wasn't involved, independent schools would be affordable for all. A bigger market will drive the cost down. And it's only the government being involved that means rich kids get better education: their parents are the only ones who can pay both taxes and go to a privately funded school.
Public education is woefully underfunded. Where do you think these savings are to be made to spend on education?

Private education benefits the rich, always has and always will. It is why right wing politicians like it. Education should be for all any any private involvement makes that harder when it should be made easier. I'm also at a loss to how this could make the education market bigger? We have the same number of kids requiring education.

And I have no problem with rich people paying for private schools. What I object to is me paying for their education and the fees then being spent on buildings and pools and overseas trips in what is no more than an old boys network to make sure people like us get jobs irrespective of merit later in life. The academic results of private schools show this as they get more or less the same results as public schools which service the same socio-economic demographic. And in fact this means they actually do worse because private schools buy results by dedicating serious resources to rorting the special consideration systems at HSC/A Level time. They also "encourage" kids who will fail to leave before the exams so that their poor results are excluded from league tables. So in fact they do worse than the equivalent public schools.

And how would a private school work in a low socio-economic neighborhood?
 

notcool

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Get rid of welfare too. It takes money out of society that could be used to create jobs, which leads to more welfare. And people choose welfare over a job in some cases too, which means more welfare (more of a drain).

Schools won't back teachers because they are required to give education no matter what. Yes, they can expel but the kid just gets bounced to the next state school. But if the schools were privately funded, they could kick out whoever they wanted. Which would see behaviour become much better (there is actually a deterrent). People behave much worse when they believe they are entitled to something but when they believe someone is helping them and it's their choice, they behave much better.

And if you get rid of welfare, people will want to send their kids to school.
 

Manny

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You're assuming that people won't have more money to spend because of less taxes and that if all schools were private, the cost wouldn't be less. As it is now, it's the elite who are able to spend taxes AND then send their kids to a private school. It's the way it is now which is unfair.
You are assuming big business and corporations won't increase prices for goods and services to take advantage of this additional 'disposable' income.

As much as people piss and moan about taxes, at least it ensures funds are allocated for a decent standard of education for every kid in the country, without capitalists interests getting involved.

I will repeat that if the government wasn't involved, independent schools would be affordable for all. A bigger market will drive the cost down. And it's only the government being involved that means rich kids get better education: their parents are the only ones who can pay both taxes and go to a privately funded school.
Maybe but affordable is relative to your income, number children and other dependents. Huge factors at lower and working class income levels.

The only people who stand to benefit from your 'bigger market' are the upper classes from not having to pay tax.