Black Sheep Draft QF - Joga vs. RedTiger/Peyroteo

With players at peak, who wins?


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Annahnomoss

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Hard to assess. He was often moved back to protect a lead, etc. But he clearly isn't a top level CB in an all-time setting as such. I don't consider him a top level striker either, for that matter. He's a special case and a great player, but his greatness rests on his versatility - and unless you actually use that versatility as part of your game plan, he's «just» a very good player you could replace with many CBs out there.

Should come in handy against the aerial threat of Kocsis, though
Would have been a fun use of him. Bergomi-Koeman-Costacurta with an overly offensive setup with Charles and Pele upfront and Gullit just behind then swap down Charles after the inevitable goal fest. Hard to put in to practice in a draft though of course. :wenger:
 

Annahnomoss

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About the game. Gullit, Vieira and Keane up against Matthäus, Neeskens and Schweinsteiger would make for a great game. Matthäus would be hard for Vieira and Keane to deal with and he'd slip away on those dribbling runs a bit too often.

Especially for a Costacurta/Charles centre back pairing where you'd sort of have wanted someone who could rise the other. I'd probably have preferred Gullit further down behind Keane and Vieira just to shut down to space there. Pele, Ronaldo and the box to box runs from Vieira and Keane should already be enough to be about as dangerous as you could be in the air. Bergomi will have his hands full dealing with Baggio already so he won't exert much influence on Matthäus.

On the other hand Figueroa is ideal at dealing with Ronaldos aerial threat and the rest of the defense is rock solid already.

Not too sure what Gullit adds from there even if he's a personal favorite. Still an even game but I went with Joga based on that.
 

Joga Bonito

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Haven't exactly expanded on my tactics, so let me do so now. Not really playing a defensive set-up here nor am I utilising catenaccio tactics. Naturally, it being a back 5, it's going to be relatively more defensive, however by no means it is a shut-out uber defensive side. Starting from the back, Franco Baresi reprises his brilliant defensive role and can be relied on for top notch organisation of defense and his reading of the game. On the ball, he was a brilliant long-range passer and could be relied on to mix it up once in a while with a productive run forward. Likewise, Don Elias and the Volkswagen were technically gifted players who were capable of both being the launch-pad for attacks with their passing or making runs forward if need be. Likewise, Brehme and C.Alberto are two of the greatest full-backs to ever play the game and both were known for making significant contributions to their sides attack. So it's by no means a catenaccio defense with a positionally disciplined sweeper (Picchi) with 2 limited stoppers flanking them and a man-marker somewhere there to boot, shielded by defensive midfielders, setting up shop at the back.

Likewise, Neeskens and Lothar have been given full freedom to impact play on both ends of the pitch and make those trademark runs at the end of the pitch, with Schweinsteiger playing the tactically reserved role. So they aren't exactly being tasked with man-marking or playing a passive game but rather an aggressive game (their usual ball-winning roles), in tandem with Schweinsteiger providing the tactical nous and balance. They'd very much be at home here in these aggressive B2B roles, with their irrepressible pressing and ball-winning roles, whilst combining well with their direct approach. That being said, they both weren't gung-ho and overly direct footballer but technically gifted and creative B2Bs who knew when to play the pass, take their man on or go for goal etc. Not much needs to be said of Neeskens creative skills or his brilliant dribbling runs or off the ball movement, but Matthäus's work on the ball does tend to get underrated somewhat imo. He was the prime mover of the ball for both Inter and Germany at his peak and his varied approach as a complete midfielder meant that he could very well be dropping deep to start off an attack, go on a mazy run, spread play with his underrated long-range passing etc.

So it's very much a well-rounded side without 'defensive specialists' or specific restraints placed upon the players. Naturally the back 3 are bound to be defensive, but not overly so nor are they limited players by any means, with the team having a fairly balanced approach overall with the right amount of defensive restraint and freedom. It definitely helps that most players in my side are complete individuals who can function to a high level in both phases. Not every back 5 set-up has to be defensive and a decent example would be Juventus in recent times (my side isn't based on them though), with their tactically astute back 5 set-up, but frequently ending up as top scorers or thereabouts in the Serie A, whilst playing some excellent football.
 
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Raees

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  • Charles/Costacurta v Kocsis
  • Bergomi/Augusto v Baggio/Brehme
  • Carlos/Ronaldo v Neeskens/Alberto
  • Gullit v Schweini/Neeskens
  • Keane/Viera v Matthaus
  • Pele v KHS/Baresi/Figueroa
Truthfully this match would end up a draw I think as the defences and midfield are so industrious and well suited for the opposition that the game is likely to be an ugly Italia 90 semi final and end up in penalties.

Kocsis v Charles/Costacurta.. I think this comes down to how highly you rate Charles at CB as stylistically he's a great matchup for Kocsis on paper. Draw.

Bergomi v Baggio - for me Bergomi wins this battle. But if we include Brehme overlapping and I don't think Augusto was defensively that secure to be able to keep tabs on Brehme.. much would fall on Keane to help shore up that flank who also has to help keep tabs on Matthaus (potential slight opening for Joga).

Carlos and Ronaldo v Alberto and Neeskens.. the former is a beautifully balanced flank and would definitely work as it is a upgraded Marcelo partnering peak Cristiano. Problem is that they're up against Neeskens/Alberto who are very disciplined and hard to beat.. I can't see the former pair getting joy out of that flank but Neeskens/Alberto could counter - my issue is Alberto is more reknowned for defensive ability and not attacking.. Cafu would have been a great fit here with Neeskens but Alberto less so. Neeskens also needed to help battle Gullit.. so I fear Joga flank here is underresourced.. (Redtiger edges it).

As much as I like Schweini I do think Gullit is a bad matchup for him as he so big and powerful.. but he does have Neeskens which makes it a draw. Keane and Viera as a tandem is a beastly pairing and I don't think Matthaus is the type of 10 who would make these two struggle as a pair (draw).

Pele against that three man defence is impossible. Overall a very tight game. Comes down to margins.
 

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Jogas team is setup way too defensive for me , with Pele , Ronaldo and Guillet having a lot of attacking opportunities they will get a goal or goals.
 

Joga Bonito

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Carlos and Ronaldo v Alberto and Neeskens.. the former is a beautifully balanced flank and would definitely work as it is a upgraded Marcelo partnering peak Cristiano. Problem is that they're up against Neeskens/Alberto who are very disciplined and hard to beat.. I can't see the former pair getting joy out of that flank but Neeskens/Alberto could counter - my issue is Alberto is more reknowned for defensive ability and not attacking.. Cafu would have been a great fit here with Neeskens but Alberto less so. Neeskens also needed to help battle Gullit.. so I fear Joga flank here is underresourced.. (Redtiger edges it).
Aye, don't think C.Alberto is a classic attacking wing-back (stated that I'm utilising him in a more supporting wing-back role, with Neeskens and Baggio providing the dynamism in the right hand channels in the write-up). C.Alberto's strengths were his sheer technique on the ball and ability to play those brilliant early-balls and between the line passing.


That being said, we shouldn't underestimate his attacking input and his all-round play. Carlos Alberto was clearly the most 'attacking' defender from the Brazil (and Santos) sides with Everaldo playing the defensive role at LCB. He was afforded freedom to influence play in the opposition's half but wasn't the marauding wing back type who had to hit the byline and beat his man and put in a cross (although he could as he demonstrated in the final against Italy playing the wing-back role and putting in some delicious crosses - both driven from the byline and deep balls).

Imo, he was a willing outlet out wide and was capable of playing some lovely balls from deep into the box but his playmaking ability was really brilliant - esp those incisive through balls and lobbed between the line passes. Alberto functions as the 'supporting' wing-back with Neeskens given license to venture towards the right. Sort of like my 40s draft set up with Ball supporting Alberto on the right without a winger/wing forward on the right.



Just to better illustrate my point. Him playing as a wing-back, (hyper-linked the video so check it out) in the final against Italy. He provides an excellent outlet out wide but isn't exactly the Cafu type to take on players and run past them but plays really intelligent early balls from deep and some excellent through balls, also combines really well in the final third (Baggio, Lothar and Neeskens should love that). A few great crosses too, with Tostao being unable to capitalise on them. Kocsis would definitely relish them of course.
 

Joga Bonito

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Jogas team is setup way too defensive for me , with Pele , Ronaldo and Guillet having a lot of attacking opportunities they will get a goal or goals.
I wouldn't say it's too defensive myself and will just quote my post #43, where I've expanded more on my set-up. Always nice to see non-draft regulars commenting in draft threads and do let me know if you'd like more info on any of my players.

Haven't exactly expanded on my tactics, so let me do so now. Not really playing a defensive set-up here nor am I utilising catenaccio tactics. Naturally, it being a back 5, it's going to be relatively more defensive, however by no means it is a shut-out uber defensive side. Starting from the back, Franco Baresi reprises his brilliant defensive role and can be relied on for top notch organisation of defense and his reading of the game. On the ball, he was a brilliant long-range passer and could be relied on to mix it up once in a while with a productive run forward. Likewise, Don Elias and the Volkswagen were technically gifted players who were capable of both being the launch-pad for attacks with their passing or making runs forward if need be. Likewise, Brehme and C.Alberto are two of the greatest full-backs to ever play the game and both were known for making significant contributions to their sides attack. So it's by no means a catenaccio defense with a positionally disciplined sweeper (Picchi) with 2 limited stoppers flanking them and a man-marker somewhere there to boot, shielded by defensive midfielders, setting up shop at the back.

Likewise, Neeskens and Lothar have been given full freedom to impact play on both ends of the pitch and make those trademark runs at the end of the pitch, with Schweinsteiger playing the tactically reserved role. So they aren't exactly being tasked with man-marking or playing a passive game but rather an aggressive game (their usual ball-winning roles), in tandem with Schweinsteiger providing the tactical nous and balance. They'd very much be at home here in these aggressive B2B roles, with their irrepressible pressing and ball-winning roles, whilst combining well with their direct approach. That being said, they both weren't gung-ho and overly direct footballer but technically gifted and creative B2Bs who knew when to play the pass, take their man on or go for goal etc. Not much needs to be said of Neeskens creative skills or his brilliant dribbling runs or off the ball movement, but Matthäus's work on the ball does tend to get underrated somewhat imo. He was the prime mover of the ball for both Inter and Germany at his peak and his varied approach as a complete midfielder meant that he could very well be dropping deep to start off an attack, go on a mazy run, spread play with his underrated long-range passing etc.

So it's very much a well-rounded side without 'defensive specialists' or specific restraints placed upon the players. Naturally the back 3 are bound to be defensive, but not overly so nor are they limited players by any means, with the team having a fairly balanced approach overall with the right amount of defensive restraint and freedom. It definitely helps that most players in my side are complete individuals who can function to a high level in both phases. Not every back 5 set-up has to be defensive and a decent example would be Juventus in recent times (my side isn't based on them though), with their tactically astute back 5 set-up, but frequently ending up as top scorers or thereabouts in the Serie A, whilst playing some excellent football.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Bergomi v Baggio - for me Bergomi wins this battle
Baggio does have a stellar record against Bergomi, scoring 9 goals in 16 games vs Inter in games where both he and Bergomi started. Alot of those games were for Fiorentina and Bologna too so Baggio would have been playing for the lesser-fancied team.

Not meaning to weigh in too heavily for one team here, but I do tend to turn a bit rabid when there's the slightest opportunity to defend Baggio :D
 

Annahnomoss

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Baggio does have a stellar record against Bergomi, scoring 9 goals in 16 games vs Inter in games where both he and Bergomi started. Alot of those games were for Fiorentina and Bologna too so Baggio would have been playing for the lesser-fancied team.

Not meaning to weigh in too heavily for one team here, but I do tend to turn a bit rabid when there's the slightest opportunity to defend Baggio :D
Awesome post mate. Had no clue about that!
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Awesome post mate. Had no clue about that!
I vaguely recalled that he'd done well against Inter and then spent some time on transfermarkt to fill in the blanks statistically. I'd probably be better off trying to put together something for my own match vs Onenil, but I do have an unhealthy love for Baggio :lol:
 

Annahnomoss

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I vaguely recalled that he'd done well against Inter and then spent some time on transfermarkt to fill in the blanks statistically. I'd probably be better off trying to put together something for my own match vs Onenil, but I do have an unhealthy love for Baggio :lol:
:D Was well worth it. I couldn't have imagined Baggio doing so well against Bergomi as on paper it seems ideal for Bergomi.
 

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I vaguely recalled that he'd done well against Inter and then spent some time on transfermarkt to fill in the blanks statistically. I'd probably be better off trying to put together something for my own match vs Onenil, but I do have an unhealthy love for Baggio :lol:
By all means spend your time discussing Baggio, it will even that I wont be home until Sunday night and probably be hungover :angel:
 

Raees

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Baggio does have a stellar record against Bergomi, scoring 9 goals in 16 games vs Inter in games where both he and Bergomi started. Alot of those games were for Fiorentina and Bologna too so Baggio would have been playing for the lesser-fancied team.

Not meaning to weigh in too heavily for one team here, but I do tend to turn a bit rabid when there's the slightest opportunity to defend Baggio :D
Ah that changes things! Never underestimate the genius of the Divine Ponytail. Lesson learnt..
 

Joga Bonito

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I vaguely recalled that he'd done well against Inter and then spent some time on transfermarkt to fill in the blanks statistically. I'd probably be better off trying to put together something for my own match vs Onenil, but I do have an unhealthy love for Baggio :lol:
By all means spend your time discussing Baggio, it will even that I wont be home until Sunday night and probably be hungover :angel:
:lol:
 

Peyroteo

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14-14 :lol: Jesus, this is close

I think everyone agrees this would be a close match. In 100 matches between these two teams, I don't think many would be won by more than 1 or 2 goals. But the thing with close matches is that they're usually decided by one of these three things: individual brilliance, a mistake or set pieces.

Individual brilliance: As much as I love Baggio, the two most likely players on the pitch to produce that moment of magic are Cristiano Ronaldo and Pelé. They're two of the most prolific goalscorers of all time and they score time and time again with half chances. Joga's defense is great but these two only need a few centimeters of space to decide a game. With Casillas' reflexes in goal, I don't think our team would statisticly need as many opportunities to score a goal too.

Mistakes: While we have the option of kicking it long to Gullit when in trouble, Joga has that three men at the back that should always provide safe passing options. With the lack of pressing from our team upfront, Joga's team will have a bit more of the ball and when you're passing it around the back you're always closer to a mistake. Although the quality of his players combined with the lack of our pressing suggests it won't be happening often enough. The mistakes that I see happening more often are in midfield. Both midfields are very combative which should result in counter attacks for both teams and I see us having an advantage there. Cristiano Ronaldo is probably the scariest player ever to play against in these situations and Gullit with his long strides was unstoppable. I don't see Schweinsteiger catching up with our counters which will result in direct running against Joga's defense.


(4 - 3:20 and 2 - 4:30)

Set pieces: This is where I'm confident we have a big advantage. The only outfield player Joga has over 6ft is Elias Figueroa at 6ft1. Our team has Costacurta (6ft), John Charles (6ft2), Bergomi (6ft1), Patrick Vieira (6ft4), Ruud Gullit (6ft3) and Cristiano Ronaldo (6ft1). Pelé, José Augusto (see videos I posted before) and Roy Keane as I'm sure you are all aware were threats in the air too. The importance of set pieces should not be underestimated and I do think it's enough to separate these two very balanced teams.
 

Peyroteo

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If the match went to pens, we have a specialist in goal and I have a feeling having Baresi and Baggio take high pressure penalties wouldn't end well :angel:
 

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If the match went to pens, we have a specialist in goal and I have a feeling having Baresi and Baggio take high pressure penalties wouldn't end well :angel:
That's it. I'm coming for you.
 

Mciahel Goodman

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Hard to look beyond Pele and Ronaldo. The rest of the team is good too, so Pele and Ronaldo gets my vote.
 

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Why are Baresi and Figueroa being discounted from the "individual brilliance" factor? They were capable of single-handedly deciding games too - Baresi against Romario in 1994, Figueroa against Müller in 1974 etc. And if we look at attack/defence combinations, it's hard to see Pele/Ronaldo having a better game than Baggio/Kocsis.
 

Joga Bonito

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Individual brilliance: As much as I love Baggio, the two most likely players on the pitch to produce that moment of magic are Cristiano Ronaldo and Pelé. They're two of the most prolific goalscorers of all time and they score time and time again with half chances. Joga's defense is great but these two only need a few centimeters of space to decide a game.
Definitely, I'd rate Pele's and CR7's individuality higher than Baggio's, but relatively speaking I'd back Kocsis against the Charles-Costacurta pairing. Think it's the match-up which promises the most joy on the entire pitch myself. The former wasn't a proven centre-back, let alone at the highest levels but was an excellent striker, whose scoring record speaks for itself. His versatility is excellent but playing as a specialist centre-back against a top notch forward like Kocsis, he could be found wanting here.


Never was a fan of Charles as a center back at the highest level, even though he is a good fit for Kocsis here.
and Charles will be very useful in the air vs Kocsis).
Kocsis v Charles/Costacurta.. I think this comes down to how highly you rate Charles at CB as stylistically he's a great matchup for Kocsis on paper. Draw.
Cheers for the feedback, also something that I'd like to clarify about Kocsis. He was an immense header of the ball and was aptly coined the Golden Head but he wasn't exactly a target man ala Vieri/Shearer but rather a fairly complete forward with modern-day centre forward traits. Think Gio and Theon both experienced problems in regards to this in their last draft when he was flanked by Blokhin and Stoichkov

Imo, neither Hungary nor Barcelona were anywhere near crossing sides or played 'wide'. Only Czibor was a tricky wing player who loved playing crosses but he was a free roaming type and could frequently be found in the channels or even on the right flank (had a one-in-two goalscoring record), likewise Budai on the other flank was more of a forward. Hungary had a lot of central inter-changing going on and the likes Czibor and Budai were only expected to stretch play as opposed to being instructed to frequently cross from out wide - the likes of Puskas, Bozsik etc drifted wide at times to play some lovely curling crosses though.


Likewise for Barca, only Czibor was the only 'wide' player with the play being extremely central with the likes of Evaristo (sort of like Aguero), Suarez and Kubala. Kubala played as the outside right but was more like Kopa on the right and frequently cut in. Likewise Czibor was hardly a disciplined left winger like Giggs and frequently cut inside or was found on the right flank (check out his goal against Benfica in the European Cup final where he cuts in from the right and scores a great goal). Kocsis had to frequently function as the link-man in these centrally heavy set-ups and had to frequently play alongside extremely forward oriented players.

His link-up play was excellent as too was his hold-up play, and he is the kind of a striker who needs service, but could go an entire game without a cross and still score goals. Doesn't change the fact that he was bloody brilliant in the air and of course it's better if you have a good crosser in your side to take advantage of that (Czibor or Brehme here for that matter) but it most certainly is not a necessity like say with Vieri or a Shearer. Kocsis was brilliant in the air but also quite the player and finisher on the deck with predatory movement off the ball. Of course it's definitely nice to have a great header against Kocsis in the box (Charles) but Kocsis is more than wily enough than to go on a straight up duel with Charles (a fair few of his headed goals arose from his movement and he wasn't a battering ram of a forward per se, though he had a salmon like leap and excellent physical attributes) and would be a real nuisance to Charles-costacurta with his all round goalscoring arsenal in the box.

Just to expand on my previous post, have made an video of Kocsis's performance from the inside right position against England. Not particularly a gifted dribbler but a really well-rounded forward who links up very well with his fellow forwards, holds the ball up excellently and brings others into play, as opposed to a target man or a someone who relied exclusively or heavily on crosses.

That being said, he was the chief target of the side's set-pieces and occasional crosses nonetheless but as one can see with plenty of central movement from the likes of Neeskens and Baggio, he won't be a static forward going head to head against Charles, but will be fluid (not dropping too deep though as I'm not exactly utilising him at inside right here) and his movement is bound to cause troubles for Charles and Costacurta, whilst the likes of Neeskens, Lothar and Baggio are bound to enjoy his link-up play.

Kocsis's performance against England

And of course with service from Baggio, Brehme, Lothar, Neeskens and C.Alberto amongst others, one won't bet against him nicking a goal or two here too.

Joga's team will have a bit more of the ball and when you're passing it around the back you're always closer to a mistake.
Tbf, I'd back my back 5 (all of whom are comfortable on the ball), to relatively make fewer mistakes than your back 4 for instance (none of whom are particularly gifted passers, although R.Carlos was great with the ball).

The mistakes that I see happening more often are in midfield. Both midfields are very combative which should result in counter attacks for both teams and I see us having an advantage there.
Both midfields are very combative which should result in counter attacks for both teams and I see us having an advantage there. Cristiano Ronaldo is probably the scariest player ever to play against in these situations and Gullit with his long strides was unstoppable. I don't see Schweinsteiger catching up with our counters which will result in direct running against Joga's defense.
Neither do I see Vieira being defensively astute enough to keep up with Neeskens and it could be potentially dangerous resulting in Neeskens or Lothar having a couple of runs at your defense. I'd say there would definitely be some ball turnovers for both sides but I'd say my midfield trio backs a wee bit more balance and stability than a dynamic midfield duo of Keane-Vieira (it could very well be argued that they'd prefer a slightly more restrained partner alongside each other, like Schweinsteiger for example).

EDIT: The fact that I'm not playing a classical #10 should be taken into account when considering the merits of a Keane-Vieira partnertship and to some extent, it makes it more feasible. However, I'm not utilising a single B2B midfielder here with a more laid-back playmaking central midfielder, which could have allowed Vieira to function defensively alongside Keane. However, with the twin-pronged threat of Neeskens-Lothar, Vieira might not be at his defensive best here. Btw, I'd back Keane anyday against Lothar or Neeskens but truth be told, I've never rated Vieira's defensive game very highly and have always rated the offensive facets of his B2B game higher, I'd have preferred a more classic B2B pairing of Keane-Souness/Edwards for instance.
 
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antohan

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Why are Baresi and Figueroa being discounted from the "individual brilliance" factor? They were capable of single-handedly deciding games too - Baresi against Romario in 1994, Figueroa against Müller in 1974 etc. And if we look at attack/defence combinations, it's hard to see Pele/Ronaldo having a better game than Baggio/Kocsis.
Yups. I actually settled my vote on that basis. In a game of fine margins Charles-Costacurta looks quite vulnerable.
 

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Why are Baresi and Figueroa being discounted from the "individual brilliance" factor? They were capable of single-handedly deciding games too - Baresi against Romario in 1994, Figueroa against Müller in 1974 etc. And if we look at attack/defence combinations, it's hard to see Pele/Ronaldo having a better game than Baggio/Kocsis.
Most of these players were capable of deciding games. I think the two players most likely to do it are Cristiano and Pelé.

And I don't see how it's hard to see Pele and Ronaldo having better games than Baggio and Kocsis? Joga's defense is very good, but what defense in the world is capable of stopping these two from scoring goals?

I think we're perfectly set up to stop their attack. Bergomi, Costacurta and Charles are perfect match ups for Baggio and Kocsis. And we have Vieira and Keane protecting the defense. I think if this game were to happen his three men defense would mean he would have most of the initiative of the game and I don't think he has enough in his attack to break our team down. Our big advantage in set pieces means we should have no problem in comitting fouls to stop their dangerous attacks, while every set piece we have should cause panic in his area. Basically I think it would be a pretty boring game. His team would have most of the ball but would be to afraid to commit forward due to our counters. I just think it's more likely to be one of our players or a set piece making the difference.
 

Annahnomoss

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I had no clue he was so well rounded, and my mental image was him being more of a pure goalscorer than that. Great video mate. He doesn't play the game anything like a Nordahl though and spends most of his time not leading the line and instead using some great link up play and nifty creativity down that centre and the right hand side.
 
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Raees

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I had no clue he was so well rounded, and my mental image was him being more of a pure goalscorer than that. Great video mate. He doesn't play the game anything like a Nordahl though and spends most of his time not leading the line and instead using some great link up play and nifty creativity down that right hand side.
He's much smaller as well more like a Kun Aguero in terms of stature and technical link up player but also happens to be a lethal header and ambidextrous finisher.

I still think Charles whether you rate him or not as a defender wasn't just a stopper when he played CB but a well rounded CB who was utilised back there predominantly for his heading ability from what I've read.

Either way no doubt for me about which defence is the weaker but Joga attack is also significantly weaker than Redtigers.
 

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Come on man, can you really vote against a team with Cristiano and Casillas in it? :D
Not what i meant. I meant i'm physically coming after you :D

Anyways, yeah i could, and i would have, if you didn't have pelé
 

Joga Bonito

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I had no clue he was so well rounded, and my mental image was him being more of a pure goalscorer than that. Great video mate. He doesn't play the game anything like a Nordahl though
Aye, it's nothing short of brilliant watching games and exclusively focusing on players like Kocsis and Müller as they tend to go under the radar when focusing on the game in general with the likes of Puskas, Bozsik, Czibor, Hidegkuti or Beckenbauer, Overath, Hoeness etc catching the eye. They weren't the most aesthetically pleasing of players and weren't the greatest of dribblers but were tactically extremely intelligent and malleable, in addition to their stunning a goal over a game scoring records on the international stage. Kocsis had to play with a merry go round set-up of the Magyars with the only constant in the forward 5 being Budai sticking to his right flank and cutting in, Hidegkuti dropped deep or was the highest player up the pitch, Puskas was a free roamer and Czibor could be found on the left or the right or sticking up front on the counter. Kocsis's tactical positioning and his link-up play had to be top notch to faciliate the movement and combination plays and most importantly, be at the end of the creative schemers' service somehow. Quite remarkable really.

Same thing goes for Müller, who had to function as a false 9 in the 1972 side, link up play between midfield and attack, with Netzer being deeper than normal, drag markers all over the final third and create space for his fellow wing-forwards (Heynckes and Kremers/Held/etc) and still be the chief goalscoring focal threat at the end of it all. Was quite something that.
 
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harms

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And I don't see how it's hard to see Pele and Ronaldo having better games than Baggio and Kocsis? Joga's defense is very good, but what defense in the world is capable of stopping these two from scoring goals?

I think we're perfectly set up to stop their attack. Bergomi, Costacurta and Charles are perfect match ups for Baggio and Kocsis
Well, maybe we rate your players differently, but comparing Costacurta and Charles (as a CB) to Baresi and Figueroa is like comparing Riquelme to Maradona. And the difference between your and Joga's attack (and without a doubt, Pele and Cristiano stand out) is not as big as the gulp in class between his and your defenders.

And Bergomi won't be able to fully concentrate on Baggio with Brehme unleashed as a wing back
 
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Joga Bonito

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If the match went to pens, we have a specialist in goal and I have a feeling having Baresi and Baggio take high pressure penalties wouldn't end well :angel:
Don't forget Matthäus with his new boots too :lol:
 

giorno

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Think if they actually played, Brehme would dominate the game, but Pelé would win it
 

Joga Bonito

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Why are Baresi and Figueroa being discounted from the "individual brilliance" factor? They were capable of single-handedly deciding games too - Baresi against Romario in 1994, Figueroa against Müller in 1974 etc. And if we look at attack/defence combinations, it's hard to see Pele/Ronaldo having a better game than Baggio/Kocsis.
Indeed, they are very much match-winners in their own right.

It's hard to think of a centre-back winning these many honors but that's precisely what Figueroa was capable of

(Taken from anto's write-up)
  • 6 times Best Centre-half in the Americas (1972-77)
  • 4 times Best Centre-Half in the World (1974-77)
  • 3 times Best Player FROM the Americas (1974-76)
  • 2 times World Player of the Year (1975-76)
  • Best Centre-half at 1974 FIFA World Cup
  • 3 Times Best Player in the Uruguayan League
  • 2 Times Best Player in the Brazilian League (ahead of Falcao, Zico, Rivelino, etc.)
  • Best Foreign Player in the history of Brazilian Football
  • Pelé's nonsense 125 Living Legends
  • IFFHS Best South American Defender ever
  • IFFHS 8th Best South American Player ever
  • IFFHS 37th Best World Player ever (5th among defensive players, third among centre-halves)
Whilst the likes of Baresi, Schnellinger and Brehme have been in the ballon d'Or top 3 which is nothing short of remarkable. In fact when it comes to Brehme, he is one of the 5 full backs ever to finish in a Ballon d'Or top 3 and he also won the Serie A POTY, in a league featuring Maldini, Baresi, Gullit, Matthäus, Rijkaard, and Van Basten as a LB - and is one of only two full-backs to have won player of the year in the last four decades in Europe's three major leagues. So it would be extremely reductionist to just focus on an attack when looking at 'match-winners'.

Think if they actually played, Brehme would dominate the game, but Pelé would win it
Tbf, Pele did say Figueroa was the best defender he has ever faced (although the nutter has also said the same thing about Moore iirc) and here it's not just Figueroa that he is facing but a defense boasting Franco Baresi and Schnellinger too. As harms has aptly mentioned, I'd back Baggio-Kocsis over Ronaldo-Pele, relative to the defensive set-ups that they are facing.
 

giorno

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Counterpoint: Pelé was an alien
 

Annahnomoss

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Aye, it's nothing short of brilliant watching games and exclusively focusing on players like Kocsis and Müller as they tend to go under the radar when focusing on the game in general with the likes of Puskas, Bozsik, Czibor, Hidegkuti or Beckenbauer, Overath, Hoeness etc catching the eye. They weren't the most aesthetically pleasing of players and weren't the greatest of dribblers but were tactically extremely intelligent and malleable, in addition to their stunning a goal over a game scoring records on the international stage. Kocsis had to play with a merry go round set-up of the Magyars with the only constant in the forward 5 being Budai sticking to his right flank and cutting in, Hidegkuti dropped deep or was the highest player up the pitch, Puskas was a free roamer and Czibor could be found on the left or the right or sticking up front on the counter. Kocsis's tactical positioning and his link-up play had to be top notch to faciliate the movement and combination plays and most importantly, be at the end of the creative schemers' service somehow. Quite remarkable really.

Same thing goes for Müller, who had to function as a false 9 in the 1972 side, link up play between midfield and attack, with Netzer being deeper than normal, drag markers all over the final third and create space for his fellow wing-forwards (Heynckes and Kremers/Held/etc) and still be the chief goalscoring focal threat at the end of it all. Was quite something that.
Definitely the case. Those WM formations as well were a lot more fluid and the idea that the wingers were always of the traditional type is far from the truth. The entire balance was different from today and often the central trio were wonderful dribblers, or had that Kocsis ability to play through a defense. Players like Sivori, Liedholm, Gren, Schiaffino, Kopa(for France/Reims) and so on would challenge todays best wingers in terms of dribbling and they were all central players. In some teams you'd find not just one great dribbler in the inside right/left role but two like Liedholm/Schiaffino or Liedholm/Gren.

So the wingers often didn't have that responsibility in that regard as they have today. Bar Matthews I am not sure I know any other "GOAT" wingers from those times who played it like a traditional winger, even Garrincha at his best in '62 would roam the pitch and could be found in the central areas or even towards the left side at times.

 
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Peyroteo

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Tbf, Pele did say Figueroa was the best defender he has ever faced (although the nutter has also said the same thing about Moore iirc) and here it's not just Figueroa that he is facing but a defense boasting Franco Baresi and Schnellinger too. As harms has aptly mentioned, I'd back Baggio-Kocsis over Ronaldo-Pele, relative to the defensive set-ups that they are facing.
Pelé might have said that but when he faced Figueroa he still found joy.

It's very easy to imagine Cristiano making those diagonal runs to the middle with Pelé dropping a bit.