[Vida5Nick]

Of course!
If Jose fails to win the Europa cup, then I would be the first person to say Mourinho out.

Imagine if he lined up a strong team today and Rashford, Pogba and Bailly suffers a gruesome knee injury....you people would be saying it's poor man management.

A win against Arsenal today does not guarantee top 4. It only improves our chances. Why not go full blown on a game that massively increases our chances of playing CL next season?

Just like winning against Celta does not guarantee top four, it only improves our chances. There's still strong teams left in the fixture list like Ajax. Yes, Why not go full blown on a game that could have got us closer top 4 if another route doesn't work out?


Where are you getting Bailly? He wasn't even in the team line up.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Well 2-3 years of mentality under LvG and Moyes give you that.

About a year ago the match against Arsenal was much more enjoyable.

 

[Tango80]

The annoying thing about that game is, the team we put out wasn't that bad, so cant blame Jose too much for that. A few of the players should know better though.

 

[prtk0811]

I thought he worked pretty hard and had good work rate. If you are going to slate him for that you need to bust the balls of the entire team cuz we lost all the one on one positional battles today. From the second half start you can just tell we were not going to win but were hanging on for the draw. I don't mind that but the effort and commitment levels just were not there with the entire team. Not just Miki.

Still lower for united standards, he showed lethargicity in the second ball and the cross came in in the first place for which welbeck was waiting.

He still has lower work rates and energy required for the wing if compared to former united players

 

[GM K]

Well 2-3 years of mentality under LvG and Moyes give you that.

Even if we beat Arsenal today we'll be point off City and two off Liverpool with much harder remaining fixtures(away to Spurs). Risking our best players with this injury crisis is suicidal for our CL chances for next year as winning EL is our best shot.

I don't like being outfought either but what can you do? When in a game like this you have to prove a point(Rooney/Martial/Micky/Jones/Smalling) etc they have been wank.

It was a game of two halves - Arsenal weren't better till the fluke goal, then we conceded second and it was game over. One of those games I guess. We fell apart and didn't deserve anything after the second goal, while Arsenal pulled back a bit.

I have to agree with you here.

Totally in support of the decision to rest players. The problem is the bench. We need a 2nd string team that can be almost equally as dangerous as your first eleven. I watched Madrid yesterday. Despite holding a 3-0 lead over Atletico, many of their big guns were rested but boy, look at their so called 2nd string team. They were ruthless! Asensio, Morata, Rodriguez, Nacho, etc.

 

[christinaa]

Does 6th placing get us into next year's Europe League?

 

[Pscholes18]

NBC commentators asking g if all these players that United want to bring in, Griezman and company...will they want to play in this type of system.

 

[Theonas]

True, but those go to together. To take control of a league you have to take control over matches. Otherwise you're just hoping that the defence holds and you can counter attack. If you specialize in attacking football you're specialized in turning games around too, and the luck of shot going in of the back of a defender is there for the attacking team.

I suppose some can argue that this is not necessarily true and point to how Leicester or even Chelsea under him played as they were largely reactive teams who set out to contain and relied on the talents of Hazard/Costa and Mahrez/Vardy to get those vital goals. That style also requires defenders who are very comfortable sitting deep close to their goal and heading out ball after ball à la Huth or Terry. So I am not sure I agree with you that it can't work which is why for me it's about A) it relies overly on one of those special players having a great season and needs those very old school defenders who are simply a rarity nowadays. And more importantly B) it's just an embarrassing approach for a big and rich club.

 

[Zii]

Eh?
This is the first time that Jose has lost in months. You are making it sound like we are serial losers (which we were, under LVG).

We are set up to not lose, not to win

 

[Womp]

NBC commentators asking g if all these players that United want to bring in, Griezman and company...will they want to play in this type of system.

Griezmann plays in a system just as bad, if not worse than this.

 

[Enigma_87]

I have to agree with you here.

Totally in support of the decision to rest players. The problem is the bench. We need a 2nd string team that can be almost equally as dangerous as your first eleven. I watched Madrid yesterday. Despite holding a 3-0 lead over Atletico, many of their big guns were rested but boy, look at their so called 2nd string team. They were ruthless! Asensio, Morata, Rodriguez, Nacho, etc.

Oh I agree wholeheartedly. Our attacking options are nothing short of shocking apart from Ibra and Rashford.

Martial is in a hole for a quite a while now. Lingard/Rooney are squad players sure, but they don't pull their weight in a game like this. Even when we play well in attack we can't finish and need a dozen chances to get on the scoresheet. Ridiculous really. We badly need world class finishers and not only Griezmann.

On a side note, I really hope this is the last season I see Rooney in United shirt.

 

[prtk0811]

I have to agree with you here.

Totally in support of the decision to rest players. The problem is the bench. We need a 2nd string team that can be almost equally as dangerous as your first eleven. I watched Madrid yesterday. Despite holding a 3-0 lead over Atletico, many of their big guns were rested but boy, look at their so called 2nd string team. They were ruthless! Asensio, Morata, Rodriguez, Nacho, etc.

The back passes is more of a problem because it's slowed the transition, as the wing players lack work rate and we're sitting so deep . A 343 would have helped today.

 

[minoo-utd]

We can't rely on cup games, hoped we field our strongest side vs Arsenal but it will be good gamble if we go and win the cup otherwise Jose will put swords to his neck.

 

[Enigma_87]

About a year ago the match against Arsenal was much more enjoyable.

yeah once at a time we witnessed good games under LvG and Moyes, but we've moved forward and improved under Jose in that sense(not necessarily today mind ).

 

[Tango80]

Re the second goal - If either Bailly, Rojo or Blind play, that second goal never happens.

The problem with pairing Smalling and Jones together is that neither are particularly intelligent players, probably our 2 thickest defenders. They need one of the above 3 beside them to basically tell them what to do.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I suppose some can argue that this is not necessarily true and point to how Leicester or even Chelsea under him played as they were largely reactive teams who set out to contain and relied on the talents of Hazard/Costa and Mahrez/Vardy to get those vital goals. That style also requires defenders who are very comfortable sitting deep close to their goal and heading out ball after ball à la Huth or Terry. So I am not sure I agree with you that it can't work which is why for me it's about A) it relies overly on one of those special players having a great season and needs those very old school defenders who are simply a rarity nowadays. And more importantly B) it's just an embarrassing approach for a big and rich club.

It can certainly work, but you're not really in control if you're depending on the other team not scoring from posession around the box and on them leaving space for counter attacks.

 

[Catt]

Well, you are a ray of sunshine

I wasn't far of though.

 

[antohan]

I wasn't far of though.

Not exactly a bold prediction, was it?

 

[Catt]

Not exactly a bold prediction, was it?

No and it is what I expected.

 

[prtk0811]

We are set up to not lose, not to win

We could have if we scored the first goal with a chance Rooney had.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Not much wrong with the formation and tactics.

The plan is to contain and play more defensive, then hit them on the break.

Defense is okay but the counter attack is generally poor.

A lucky deflection goal and a defensive mistake.

Then, unexpectedly Jose sacrifice his personal unbeaten record against Arsenal and gamble for the future of this club - playing the 3 United Academy products Rashford, Lingard and McTominay. I was quite sure he's going to play Pogba to win but..

Bye bye top 4 thengg.

 

[Janson]

It is not taken out of thin air, it is clearly an exaggeration but I assumed that was understood. There is a lot of truth however to the amount of tactical work Mourinho does on the offensive side of the game compared to the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, Pochettino or even Wenger. You can see it from the way his teams function and come to that reasonable conclusion when you hear players who played under him or professional analysis of tactical setups. If you think that this is not valid enough to make such a claim, then I am afraid we cannot talk about anything.

And of course I know that the way his teams have been playing worked for him, what is your point? I don't understand as I never claimed he doesn't produce teams who win. The problem that I have with him as many do is that his teams do not play like big teams, they are too reactive. Some of us think that winning alone is not enough if you are one of the biggest and richest clubs in the world, hence the criticism. Oh and by the way, his methods cannot be argued to be working anymore when you consider his record in big games over the past 3 years.

This I agree with. The other PL top managers do have more complex systems but they do have downsides as well. Pressing that high, keeping a high line leaves you vulnerable in defense. It worked for Pep with Barca having some of the best players to ever play the game. Right now, both Liverpool and City are pretty much in the same position as us.

My piont is that his aproach is proven that it works. You like to see your team play in a more sofisticated attacking way, and this I understand. Myself, I don't really care how we play as long as it get's us the points.

We can maybe take up this conversation again next season after Mourinho has brought in some players to slot in better in order to suit his way of playing. Of course Pep will do the same, and then we can judge more accurately since this is the first season for both of them. I don't believe we should read to much in to their achievements this year.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

yeah once at a time we witnessed good games under LvG and Moyes, but we've moved forward and improved under Jose in that sense(not necessarily today mind ).

Let's not pretend that Moyes and LvG were interchangeable to make Jose look better. I don't see much improvement, and moves backward. LvG's United had terrible lows, where the players didn't know how to create and lost all faith in scoring well before the end of the match. But the highs were much better and there was at least the ambition to play really good football at some point in the future. This is going nowhere, this is Moyes with a big mouth and only slightly better tactics.

 

[prtk0811]

Not much wrong with the formation and tactics.

The plan is to contain and play more defensive, then hit them on the break.

Defense is okay but the counter attack is generally poor.

A lucky deflection goal and a defensive mistake.

Then, unexpectedly Jose sacrifice his personal unbeaten record against Arsenal and gamble for the future of this club - playing the 3 United Academy products Rashford, Lingard and McTominay. I was quite sure he's going to play Pogba to win but..

Bye bye top 4 thengg.

I thought a 343 would be better equipped than a 4231 as our wingers really had to keep defending and lack workrate to get up and down the pitch slowing transition.

 

[Son Of Sam]

Does 6th placing get us into next year's Europe League?

We have already qualified for Europa via winning the league cup.

 

[Enigma_87]

Let's not pretend that Moyes and LvG were interchangeable to make Jose look better. I don't see much improvement, and moves backward. LvG's United had terrible lows, where the players didn't know how to create and lost all faith in scoring well before the end of the match. But the highs were much better and there was at least the ambition to play really good football at some point in the future. This is going nowhere, this is Moyes with a big mouth and only slightly better tactics.

Well we have been a lot more consistent - the unbeaten run we have made under Jose. The really disappointing stuff is all those home draws not having an off day like today where I'm not sure we put 100% there. Had we been closer to the top I'd probably see much more effort and Jose would've fired them up for the occasion.

 

[Son Of Sam]

Please don't tell another poster to shut up. Or "deal with it."
This is a message board and people are here to give their opinions. If that poster felt the way he did and thought that our approach was wrong, then he's entitled to state as much.

You deal with that.

Shut up!
Don't give stupid opinions just because you are entitled to it. Don't abuse the privilege of free speech.

 

[GM K]

Oh I agree wholeheartedly. Our attacking options are nothing short of shocking apart from Ibra and Rashford.

Martial is in a hole for a quite a while now. Lingard/Rooney are squad players sure, but they don't pull their weight in a game like this. Even when we play well in attack we can't finish and need a dozen chances to get on the scoresheet. Ridiculous really. We badly need world class finishers and not only Griezmann.

On a side note, I really hope this is the last season I see Rooney in United shirt.

Your analysis is spot on.

I know people love Martial here but I'm sorry to say that he has been terrible. I worry a bit less when your first season is average but when your first season is great and then you totally fall off the cliff in your second season, alarm bells.

Mikhi, Mikhi, Mikhi. Zero impact again. Loses the ball easily. Offers no danger. We just have to see how he fares next season but he doesn't look like a player to rely on for that attacking midfield role.

 

[Esquire]

Still lower for united standards, he showed lethargicity in the second ball and the cross came in in the first place for which welbeck was waiting.

He still has lower work rates and energy required for the wing if compared to former united players

That one was on Martial, Darmian and Smalling. Not Miki. I'm not defending him blinding but if you are using lethargy as a critique point then the whole team was that today.

 

[George Feeny]

Shut up!
Don't give stupid opinions just because you are entitled to it. Don't abuse the privilege of free speech.

So opinions you don't agree with are stupid. Some logic there.

 

[Esquire]

Well 2-3 years of mentality under LvG and Moyes give you that.

Even if we beat Arsenal today we'll be point off City and two off Liverpool with much harder remaining fixtures(away to Spurs). Risking our best players with this injury crisis is suicidal for our CL chances for next year as winning EL is our best shot.

I don't like being outfought either but what can you do? When in a game like this you have to prove a point(Rooney/Martial/Micky/Jones/Smalling) etc they have been wank.

It was a game of two halves - Arsenal weren't better till the fluke goal, then we conceded second and it was game over. One of those games I guess. We fell apart and didn't deserve anything after the second goal, while Arsenal pulled back a bit.

I hear you mate. That's why I'm more disappointed than upset. Boy we better win on Thursday...

 

[Enigma_87]

Your analysis is spot on.

I know people love Martial here but I'm sorry to say that he has been terrible. I worry a bit less when your first season is average but when your first season is great and then you totally fall off the cliff in your second season, alarm bells.

Mikhi, Mikhi, Mikhi. Zero impact again. Loses the ball easily. Offers no danger. We just have to see how he fares next season but he doesn't look like a player to rely on for that attacking midfield role.

On Mkhitaryan - he usually under performs in a new club and requires a season of adaptation so hopefully we'll see much better player next year. Has shown some promise so it's not all over for him.

 

[Maxii]

We have already qualified for Europa via winning the league cup.

Happy days!!
lol

 

[Enigma_87]

I hear you mate. That's why I'm more disappointed than upset. Boy we better win on Thursday...

I was like you, mate. It was an ideal set up for Pogba and Rashford to come on and hit them on a counter. It's make or break on Thursday. I really don't care if we win or draw I just want us to win EL and that CL spot.

We've come to a point that it's all about getting the job done so hopefully Jose will deliver.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

I thought a 343 would be better equipped than a 4231 as our wingers really had to keep defending and lack workrate to get up and down the pitch slowing transition.

Agree, but I'm sure that has to do with our limited defensive options, after Ashley Young get injured, and Valencia is fatigued, reserved for the second leg EL.

No proper wingbacks for 343, so might as well try with the wingers playing more defensive and provide the paces during attacks.

It kinda works for a short while during the first half, but Arsenal adapted to it quickly. Our players are fatigued may also play a big part in that too.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Does 6th placing get us into next year's Europe League?

Winning the EFL cup already has.

 

[GM K]

We should back ourselves when it's in our own hands for top 4. We basically said "thanks, but no thanks" after the dippers drew their game.

That team was showing no signs of being capable of bursting into the top four for whatever reasons. I would have made exactly the same decision to bench some key players. The problem wasn't even the team sheet today. The problem was how did those who were on that sheet play? And I don't believe their performance was because of poor tactics.

Rooney was minus one, Mikhi was poor, Martial was poor, Mata was average, Darmien, Jones and Smalling offered nothing going forward.

I think we need to come to terms with the reality: some of our players are just not good enough. Jose has made some crucial mistakes no doubt but he is managing what we have well. If by any stroke of genius, he gets the team to win the Europa, then it would have been a good season for a team re-building.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Well we have been a lot more consistent - the unbeaten run we have made under Jose. The really disappointing stuff is all those home draws not having an off day like today where I'm not sure we put 100% there. Had we been closer to the top I'd probably see much more effort and Jose would've fired them up for the occasion.

Unbeaten runs are nice for midtable clubs, consistently earning one point is not good enough. That's not caused by improvement but by defensive tactics.

 

[prtk0811]

I

That one was on Martial, Darmian and Smalling. Not Miki. I'm not defending him blinding but if you are using lethargy as a critique point then the whole team was that today.

Ta more than that , he has to apply more attacking presence than he gave ,his defensive positioning and discipline with a lower energy and work rate robbed us of the more attacking presence , you can't compare other unfit players like Rooney Carrick Mata without the legs as to being same as him .

 

[prtk0811]

That team was showing no signs of being capable of bursting into the top four for whatever reasons. I would have made exactly the same decision to bench some key players. The problem wasn't even the team sheet today. The problem was how did those who were on that sheet play? And don't tell me it because of tactics.

Rooney was poor, Mikhi was poor, Martial was poor, Mata was average, Darmien, Jones and Smalling offered nothing going forward.

They were playing 343 so we should have matched it , a 4 man defense full back can never overlap a wingback