I have gone with a classic 4-4-2 with aim of providing a system where both of my star attackers Keegan & Rummenigge can combine and get the best out of them. They will have plenty of space behind them to operate and interchange.
They will be supported on the wings by Poland legend Gadocha on the left and AC Milan legend Donadoni on the right. Behind the wingers i have two full backs who will provide plenty of width and support for the wingers in Gerets (one of the best right backs of his time) and Madrid legend Gordillo. Both are also more than competent in defence too.
In midfield will be Luis Fernandez playing the anchor role which he did so well in France's Euro cup win, his partner is Italian midfield hero Tardelli who will play the B2B role supporting the attackers. These two will also provide fantastic defensive cover.
In defence i have world cup winner Fillol in goal and one of Argentina's best ever. Krol is the ball playing centre back and Arsenal & PL legend Adams as the stopper in the partnership.
OneNil
Asymmetric 4231
This tactic was based around maximizing Romario’s scoring while highlighting some of my favorite forgotten gems. Romario excels with some players that he can interact with whether on the counter or in possession. Here he has Dejan Savicevic and Zbigniew Boniek behind him in fluid roles interchanging and confusing the defense. John Robertson, Clough’s pick for best player of the two time European Cup winning Nottingham Forest side, plays as a more orthodox winger on the left to balance the formation and stretch the defense.
Savicevic was one of best technical wizards from that legendary Yugoslavia era. His dribbling and passing is going to electrify Romario. He can feed Romario, spring Robertson and most importantly interact with Boniek. As Anto mentioned recently on Boniek, the defense would be worried about Platini and what he was going to do and then suddenly Boniek would pop up and too late, a goal was scored. Here with Savicevic’s penetration and Romario’s ever present goal threat, Boniek’s probing movement and intelligent reading of the game complements the others in the front line.
Robertson balances this by stretching the defense on the other side. But Robertson wasn’t just a touchline crossing winger. Many of his goals came in some of the most important matches. Such as the European Cup final against Manfred Kaltz who he slips away from cuts inside and scores a banger of a goal. This is what he can do here. Defense is worried about Savicevic and Boniek and suddenly Robertson has space cuts inside and we go up 1-0.
Tigana and Prohaska offer a balanced midfield. Tigana is endless energy, technical skill and positional awareness. Prohaska will sit more and patrol the area in front of the CBs. He had excellent passing range and can spring the counter attacks.
In defense Nelinho provides an x-factor on the right side. Experienced at attacking while also covering his flank defensively he can provide some moments of brilliance against even the best defenders having scored on Elias Figueroa among others. Meanwhile 8 time PFA Team of the Year selection Kenny Sansom plays a familiar and slightly more conservative role covering for Robertson.
Hans Jurgen Dorner and Hugo De Leon are a complementary defensive partnership that can handle a wide variety of attacks. Dorner was the East German and Dynamo Dresden answer to Beckenbauer. A skilled and classy defender his style preceded Scirea who is probably the closest in style. Lesser known talent Luis Arconada was a Real Sociedad legend playing solely for that club for 20 years and establishing himself as one of the best Spanish keepers in history.
Good luck @oneniltothearsenal, I need to do some research on your centre backs and left back, it's great some players that don't normally get a look in are being picked in this draft.
Good luck @oneniltothearsenal, I need to do some research on your centre backs and left back, it's great some players that don't normally get a look in are being picked in this draft.
Good luck to you as well. Unfortunately I have to participate on and off as this month has just been brutally busy.
Dorner was the only new player (to me) I got to watch a fair amount of. He really is a nice defender to watch in the Scirea mold. Great reader of the game and used his positional awareness a lot but also could contribute to attacks as a ball playing defender. I can see him being at home in a lot of modern formations from playing a Bonucci at Juve role to playing in Bayern or Barca type sides. He was also the penalty taker for Dresden and East Germany (iirc) and he scored some crucial penalties which shows his big game mentality.
While its not the sexiest international he also led underdog East Germany to the 1976 Olympics win defeating a France side with a young Platini, a Soviet side led by Blohkin and that sexy Polish side in the finals that had Lato, Zmuda and Deyna among others.
I can't access Footballia at the moment but they have a few other great matches of his.
Here is a Google Translated interview from the Dresden website:
"The Dynamo-KREISEL met before the anniversary match against Aax Amsterdam with "Dixie" Dörner in the big garden. We talked with the former world-class Libero, who scored 70 goals for the SGD in 460 Oberliga and Europapokal games between 1968 and 1986, about his career in the GDR football and the alleged "Titans of the East". Walter Fritzsch, the one-time vertical starter, told us what he expected from young talents - and he told us how he came to be the coach of the Dresden center stage in Dresden's second-highest division.
"Dixie", you have completed 100 international matches for the GDR, are Dynamo's record-players and have made a name for themselves in the East German football history - why did you actually take the title "Beckenbauer des Ostten"?
Quite simply, because Franz Beckenbauer and Hans-Jürgen Dörner were two different player personalities in different teams and different systems. "Dixie" Dörner, to put it this way, has his own ego - at the time in the square, and next to the square. I have not tried to copy the player basin builder. This is why I find this title inaccurate. Beckenbauer was an excellent footballer - and I was the footballer "Dixie" Dörner.
They speak of different systems. Would you have liked to have a career in the West with your qualities?
This question is not easy to answer. But I can say with a clear conscience that I am not envious of today's generation or the generation that has played football in another system. I have had a very good and very successful time here in Dresden as a soccer player. We have gained a lot of recognition as a team - beyond the borders of Dresden and beyond my time as an active. In this respect my sporting career has been fulfilled. Of course the football in the GDR was limited in its own way, so that, like many other players, I have reached limits in my development that would not have existed in another system. But I do not mourn.
Have you remembered one of your 100 international matches?
It is difficult to pick one up, but the game against Brazil in Natal in early 1982 was something special. We lost 1: 3 against the Brazilians in front of 60,000 spectators. Among them was the "white Pelé" Zico on the pitch. I shot the gate at the time, so you do not forget.
Many big Dynamo players had to finish their careers relatively early. Hansi Kreische, for example, Walter Fritzsch was retired early in 1977 at the age of 30 for many of them "prematurely". You played your last season with 35 and belonged to the last to the Stammpersonal. Had the times changed, or were you just over 30 at such a high level?
Both of them a bit (smirking). From the very beginning, Walter Fritzsch has been very committed to young players from his own junior team. According to Fritzsch came other coaches who have placed more emphasis on more experienced players. Then I was a bit lucky. But I also brought my performance on the pitch until the end, which of course had a share.
Two thought experiments: What player would "Dixie" Dörner have become 1.85 meters instead of 1.75 meters?
(laughs) In my day, the size of a player was not so crucial, it has changed a lot. Today you have to bring the gauges as a central defensive player. But who knows, maybe I would end up with 1.85 permanently in the attack.
Lothar Matthäus once said he would have reached the high level, because he had to work hard because of missing body size many skills ...
There can already be something true. In general, it is true that as a smaller player, you can and must take advantage of other advantages. But I am very satisfied with my size and can live well with it (laughs).
And what kind of player would you have become if you were born in 1991? How would you have developed under today's competitive and training conditions?
That is hard to say. I have only trained twice a week until the age of 17 in Görlitz. That would not work today.Then one could not create the development upwards, in the absolute performance range, no more. In the meantime, ambitious young players are already training four or five times a week. But one thing has not changed: one needs the will to get up. That was in my time like this, and that still exists today. Talent and a little wiggling with the ass alone is not enough.
Surely you've already noticed in Görlitz that you had a little more on the box than your fellow players. Were there the moment you said you'd like to go to a league club?
The sporting ambition was already my family: My three brothers have played soccer, my father has played football and trained me at this time. With 15, 16 years, the desire has already been created, to create the leap into a higher class club and to arrive in the football at the top. At this time, however, I have not thought of becoming a national player. For the first time, I wanted to gain a foothold at Dynamo Dresden and see how the development continues.
Last Saturday, the A-Youth entered the Bundesliga. How did you remember the change from the next generation into the men's area?
First of all, I would like to congratulate the U19. I am pleased that the promotion to the Bundesliga has been successful. This is a great thing for the whole club. My own transition to the men's team was quite seamless. At the beginning I played in the 2nd team, but I was lucky that Kurt Kresse, the predecessor of Walter Fritzsch, gave me the chance to compete in the first team from the start. And then Fritzsch came up with a coach who had a lot of fun with the youth. It certainly went with me relatively quickly, but I have also done something for it. I was aware that I had to work hard to be able to compete in this team. I think that is sometimes different today. One or the other young player thinks too fast that this is going on by itself.
Anyone who knows you knows you have always been a down-to-earth guy. What advice in character school do you give talents like Marvin Stefaniak or Paul Milde with you?
I can only tell them to continue working hard on themselves. A young player must not think that his first contract is already at his goal. Ultimately, each young player also decides for himself which way he wants to go and whether he wants to get to the top. This also means that you can pass times when things are not going well. It is important in any case that you use your chance and remain on the carpet.
When, as a young footballer, did you experience a greater public interest in your person for the first time?
That came with the first matches in the Oberliga, 1969. Since this year Dynamo has played permanently in the upper league, the first titles were won and we began to play also internationally. But the public was naturally a lot less than today. At that time, the newspapers and radios have not yet pounced on you when you've made a good game. In turn, you were not even taken apart after a bad game. We were left alone.
In the Europapokal the Landesmeister, you were a 20-year-old in the first leg in the Amsterdam Olympic Stadium before 60,000 spectators. Was this the biggest football backdrop to date?
Definitely! For us this scenery was something new. We were a relatively unknown team at the international level.That was impressive when we entered this stadium. The people fired their team, which at the time belonged to the World Cup. In the end, we were still well served with the 0: 2.
You did not have a direct opponent as a Libero, but did you ever get in touch with Cruyff and Co.?
As far back as I can remember, we have hardly come into the battles (laughs). What the Cruyff fabricated there on the lawn was a dream. I had not seen anything like that before. If you were opposed to him, you have already tapped your tongue. Of course, we were rattled one or other time, but Ajax was far superior to us and played a really cool football.
After the match, the team in Amsterdam has still been celebrating. Was it so common in the away games in the European Cup?
This was an absolute exception in this case. Normally, we went to the hotel after the games and have perhaps sat a bit in the restaurant. But that day we celebrated our birthday in Dieter Riedel's birthday. And in hindsight there was also some trouble. On the one hand the coach was annoyed, because we had a point game the following weekend. But there was also a delegation from the central administration from Berlin, and they did not like to see that players came home early. I think two or three of us were still locked.
This week you were with the DYNAMO DRESDEN FOOTBALL SCHOOL in Elsterwerda. What did you do with the young kickers?
We trained twice a day, did a bit of technical training and practiced playing forms, everything with a ball. Above all, it is about the fun of the children.
You are part of Ralf Hauptmann's coaching staff right from the start. What is the conclusion you draw after a copious year football school?
I think the project is going in the right direction. This shows on the one hand the participant numbers, the camps are always very well occupied. It is also very important that we feel that the acceptance and the popularity of Dynamo have increased again in the smaller clubs in Dresden and outside of Dresden. There were already times when Dynamo Dresden was not so much liked for a variety of reasons, and I believe that the football school has also improved enormously.
Starting next season you have a commitment as Chefcoach in the city league A at unit Dresden Mitte. How did it happen?
There is a personal contact there and I was approached and asked if I could imagine doing that. I accepted the offer, because I wanted to take over again a training activity. It is not that the club wants to rise to the national league. This is recreational sport, and there everything will remain as it is. The men get together after work, work out twice a week, and we'll tackle the whole thing loosely and with the necessary fun.
If the turnaround had come ten years later, could we have seen you on the SGD chair?
This is always such a speculation, I am often asked. After my time as an active at Dynamo I trained the A-Youth, and then for the second team. This has been a lot of fun for me.Perhaps the story would have gone differently, if I had not subsequently gone to the DFB, you can not say in the continuation. But with the trainer it is the same as with my time as a player - I do not mourn these things.
Would you ever be a bit more active in a higher class of gaming?
Yes, it would be very much too much for football. If an offer came and everything would fit, then I would of course think again. But I see it realistically because I know a bit about how things are going on in football. So I do not put my pants on with the bite-tongs, as I say, and am not a dreamer in that regard.
Then we would like to have a realistic assessment of the stadiums of the stadiums, training grounds and the U23 venue. Would you, as an outsider, want more support from the city?
From the outside is very difficult to estimate. I believe that both sides - the club and the city - must try to get even closer together. The ratio was already worse. But you have to continue along the paved path, communicate even more - above all communicate positively - and work together to bring the football together further up. For some years now, there has been a modern stadium and the next goals will only be achieved if the club and the city sit at a table and not work against each other, but rather work together. This is the most important thing for my concepts.
Time jump. We write the year 1977 . It was after an FDGB cup game in Berlin. Dynamo Dresden won 3: 2 against 1. FC Lokomotive Leipzig. In the evening, I listened to the retrospective commentary of a sports reporter on the final section on the West radio. He praised the Libero player from Dresden and attested to him: "This technically shuffled player can play in every team of the West." Numerous soccer friends also called him the basin builder of the East. He was a gifted footballer and wrote history. 100 national games with the GDR national team, including the sporting highlight of the Olympic Summer Games 1976 in Montreal in the stunning final against the then world championship of Poland. France, too, with a certain Michel Platini, could not prevent the triumph. Hans-Jürgen Dörner , nicknamed Dixie, was a three-time GDR footballer of the year in the election of the specialist newspaper Die neue Fußballwoche and enthusiastically welcomed football friends with numerous excellent matches in the Europapokal of the Landesmeister. He was already a legend for his active playing time at Dynamo Dresden. Meistertitel and FDGB-Pokalsiege collected Hans-Jürgen Dörner with the GDR top team like other stamps or coins. In the sporting interview, the former technically savvy Libero gives a retrospective of remarkable moments of his long and successful footballer career.
On 22 June 1969 in the Ernst-Grube stadium in Magdeburg, you gave your country's play-off in the game DDR-Chile. In the 59th minute coach Harald Seeger then switched to Henning Frenzel of 1. FC Lokomotive Leipzig. What emotional memories of the friendship game are still there?
It was a significant moment for me, without playing a top-flight game, to play the 1.länderspiel for the GDR.
Seven years later, on July 31, 1976, there was a memorable final at the Olympic Summer Games. In football, the GDR met against the Polish eleven, the World Cup third in 1974. Nationaltrainer Georg Buschner made the coronation of a remarkable tournament with you and the team. On the way to the finals the Brazilian Zico, the Frenchman Platini or Oleg Blochin from the Soviet Union had to recognize the strength of the GDR national team. The Olympian victory in Montreal 1976 was a historic victory for the GDR national team. Many soccer players talked about the perhaps best game of the national team in their history. How do you see this game in retrospect of 37 years?
The Olympics 1976 was a great experience for me. The Olympic village, the atmosphere itself was sensational. Added to this, of course, the success games for us, with the gain of the gold medal. The final match against Poland was certainly one of the best international matches in the national team.
With Dynamo Dresden you delivered countless temporeiche Europapokalparties. The role of the Libero interpreted you very modern. Often, only a few minutes to bigger successes or teams like the strong FC Liverpool were in the way. But also teams like FC Zürich, Austria Wien or standard Liege blocked the way. What three Europapokalparties remained the most intense in emotional memory?
We have experienced in Dresden great Europapokalabende. Almost all the top European teams at the Dresdner Stadion were very friendly. Games such as against Liverpool, Bayern or Ajax Amsterdam were of course extremely memorable.
40 years ago on 24th October 1973 in Munich and the return on 7th November in Dresden there were the legendary matches against Bayern Munich with you in the team of Dynamo. The team from the south of the Federal Republic was seated with Seppmaier, Franz Beckenbauer, Katsche Schwarzenbeck, Uli Hoeneß and Gerd Müller with 5 later world champions. After the tight 3-1 defeat of the Munich Olympiastadion in the return, Reinhard Häfner made it 3-2 in the 56th minute. Dynamo Dresden made a quick 2-0 home defeat at home in the first 13 minutes of the Hoeneß double pack. Then came the 58th minute. Gerd Müller, the goalkeeper king of the World Cup 1970 and Bayern's record-breaking goal scored 3: 3 for the Lattek-Elf.
How close was Dynamo Dresden at the European top? In the round, Juventus from the country of the then vice-world champion had to recognize the dynamo superiority in terms of tempo, goal danger and combination game.
I think we were not so far from the European peak. We lacked the experience and the necessary cleverness to win such games.
Some footballers thought Dynamo Dresden had missed a goalkeeper of the world class like Jürgen Croy in the good European Cups. Then more would have been possible. How do you see the goalkeeping staff in retrospect. What was missing from your point of view for the absolute leap into the European top?
Dresden was always looking for good football players. Unfortunately, there were no club changes in the GDR, as is customary in football today. Otherwise, we would certainly strengthen our position.
The well-known football magazine "Die neue Fußballwoche" honored you in 1977, 1984 and 1985 as a footballer of the year in the GDR. What was your personal best football year in the career of Dixie Dörner?
I am proud to have received this award 3 times. 1977 will be remembered because it was the first time. 1984 and 1985 shows that one can also perform well with over 30 years and the necessary experience.
What footballers did you inspire in the interpretation of the modern Liberor?
There were a lot of good football players from which I have profited. In the first place, however, I tried to interpret my game.
Jump into the new era. Today you have a football school. The name Dixie Dörner is still a lot of football fans a quality concept. Your manager Torsten Reitz supports you. How would you describe the cooperation with him? What common goals and interesting projects would you like to tackle?
My own football school no longer exists. I am working in the football school of the SG Dynamo Dresden, and I hope that the next generation of scientists will continue to make progress.
A word about the current situation of Dynamo Dresden. Where do you see the traditional association in 5 years?
Through continuous work, the club can set itself up in the German professional football.The potential for this is available.
A question at the end of our little interview: What is the ideal day in the life of Dixie Dörner?
As with other people also, quite normal.
Thanks for the interview and good luck, health, joy and a whole lot of nice experiences in football.
good 442 but 2mufc0 but i dont like that front 2, think both are much better as SS behind a proper striker....
love that savicevic/boniek combo, both central areas and right side looks fantastic but that left side is complete mystery to me. Who the feck are Sansom and Robertson?
good 442 but 2mufc0 but i dont like that front 2, think both are much better as SS behind a proper striker....
love that savicevic/boniek combo, both central areas and right side looks fantastic but that left side is complete mystery to me. Who the feck are Sansom and Robertson?
I get where you are coming from but Rummenige was a really dynamic attacker and could play multiple attacking positions.
Secondly I'm not going for a traditional target man+ second striker. I wanted a more fluid and interchangeable strike partnership much like Yorke/Cole. Keegan was great making runs into the box, and despite his height scored plenty of great headed goals too. Hence he is the more reserved attacker.
good 442 but 2mufc0 but i dont like that front 2, think both are much better as SS behind a proper striker....
love that savicevic/boniek combo, both central areas and right side looks fantastic but that left side is complete mystery to me. Who the feck are Sansom and Robertson?
I'll copy pasta my post in main thread and add to it and hopefully give you a better idea of these players.
John Robertson
As when I picked Kenny Burns in a previous draft, I feel the achievements of that 78-81 Nottm Forest side are bit underappreciated and forgotten by today's media. The former Liverpool pundits make sure that Liverpool's EC always get mentioned but it seems every year Clough is gone, less talk about that Forest side. That Forest side's two years deserve more memory than the media of 2017 gives them.
One of the first historic sides I wanted to learn about years ago Forest always captured my imagination. Other than Forest's two centre-backs Kenny Burns and Larry Lloyd whom I feel are underrated by today's pundits, Robertson is another that is almost forgotten in today's era but he was a top player in his peak. Right up there with all Liverpool's top players of this era. Clough absolutely loved Robertson. From Clough's last book, I'd guess Robertson was probably his favorite player ever.
John Robertson was considered by many to be Forest's best player during this era. A master wing player. John McGovern, Forest's captain said of him "John Robertson was like Ryan Giggs but with two good feet, not one. He had more ability than Ryan Giggs, his ratio of creating goals was better and overall he was the superior footballer".
Here is a quote from Clough on Robertson and you can see why I wanted to pair him with Socrates "Rarely could there have been a more unlikely looking professional athlete... [He was a] scruffy, unfit, uninterested waste of time...but something told me he was worth persevering with. [He] became one of the finest deliverers of a football I have ever seen – in Britain or anywhere else in the world – as fine as the Brazilians or the supremely gifted Italians."
I also love how Clough says of Manfred Kaltz that his "little fat guy" will turn Kaltz inside-out. Haha and he did!
Shame we don't have assist and key pass stats from this era. Clough always rated Robertson as the key player in those two European Cup wins. Robertson tended to score his goals in the biggest matches. He was a bit Drogba-ish in that sense. He does a great job slipping away from Manfred Kaltz to score the winning and only goal in the final against that great Hamburg side which had Kaltz and Keegan.
He scored the winning European Cup final goal against Hamburg in 1980.
He created and assisted the winning goal in the 1979 European Cup final against Malmo as well as creating other chances for Trevor Francis and Gary Birtles and hitting the post with a great run
FA Cup winning goal against Man City that shows his class.
This goal I can see happening here as the defense focuses on Boniek and Savicevic and Robertson - the forgotten little fat guy - just waits to score his goal.
Scored the winning penalty against Liverpool in the 1978 League Cup Final
Oh and one more fun video
Some select quotes on him
"The death of his brother, Hughie, a few days before one of Forest’s defining European Cup games, is not mentioned in the film. The struggle of his daughter, Jessica, born with cerebral palsy and who died in 1996 when she was 13, also remains outside the remit of a film which, instead, does justice to a footballing “miracle” conjured up by Clough and Taylor.
Yet the bright light and dark notes of life pour out of Robertson. As a footballer, he had an endearingly infamous reputation for being a heavy smoker. His fondness for a fag continued until 2013 when his heart nearly gave up during a tight tennis match against his former team-mate Gary Mills, who now manages Wrexham.
“I was determined to finish it,” Robertson says. “I won it on a tie-break! When I stopped running [the pain in his chest] stopped. It was only when I started running again that it started up again. My son called an ambulance and when I got to hospital they said I’d had a small heart attack. I’d wanted a fag before I got into the ambulance but they wouldn’t let me. I loved a cigarette but I wanted to play tennis. I knew the fags were doing me no good so I’ve not had one since.”
The work of the great artists, even on a football field, is steeped in hard graft and so Robertson waves away apocryphal tales that Clough would allow him to disappear for a cigarette at half-time. “The only time I remember was when I came back after being at Derby two years. Cloughie said: ‘If you want a fag, you have one.’ That was at Luton and I didn’t play great the second half. Urban legend really.”
Allan Brown didn't think I worked hard enough. He was right. I was feeling sorry for myself
Before Clough arrived at Forest in January 1975, after his disastrous 44 days at Leeds United, Robertson had been drifting under the previous manager Allan Brown. “It started badly with Allan,” Robertson remembers. “He said: ‘How you doing, Jimmy?’ I said: ‘It’s John.’ That was me finished with him. He didn’t rate me as a player and he didn’t think I worked hard enough. He was right. I was feeling sorry for myself. It took Clough and Taylor to come in for me to realise my talent.”
Clough understood that Robertson needed to move from central midfield to the left wing. But it was only when Taylor arrived at Forest 18 months later, in the summer of 1976, to reunite a brilliant managerial partnership, that Robertson was transformed from a wasted talent into one of the most influential players in Europe for a few years.
“Peter really tore me apart in Germany [on a pre-season tour in 1976]. I wasn’t living right. I lived the life of a footballer without proving myself to be one. Fortunately, he threw me a carrot. Peter said: ‘Brian and I think you can play … what’s your problem?’ I started to blame everyone else but he said: ‘Nah, it’s you, mate. Look in the mirror.’ The effect was immediate. The next night I came on at half-time and from then on I was not out the side for eight years.”
Robertson pinpoints Clough’s inspirational qualities. “When he shouted ‘John!’ and gave you that little sign [Robertson uses his thumb and index finger to make Clough’s trademark circle of approval] you felt 10 feet tall. The biggest compliment was when, after we had beaten Ipswich 5-0 in the Charity Shield, he just said: ‘You’re a good player, son.’ You think you would be more excited if he was gushing and saying you’re a brilliant, superlative footballer. But he kept it simple. That’s why I didn’t believe the cliche about Cloughie ruling by fear. You can’t express yourself if you’re full of fear. Some people just dig up the negatives. They say: ‘What did you think of Clough calling you a scruffy git?’ I reply: ‘What about the time he said I was like Picasso?’ I knew Cloughie loved me.”
"There’s a bit in ‘I Believe In Miracles’, the new film about Nottingham Forest’s double European Cup-winning side, in which Brian Clough is discussing facing Hamburg in the second of those finals. Clough had spent much of that interview looking uncharacteristically quite concerned about the prospect of facing the German side, but then talk turns to Manny Kaltz, Hamburg’s right-back and at that stage considered to be one of the best defenders in Europe.Instead of his concern deepening, a smile grows across Clough’s face, as if he’s he’s just remembered that there’s actually nothing to worry about at all.
“We’ve got a little fat guy who will turn him inside out,” he beams, about the man who most agree was his favourite player, and probably the best to ever play for Forest. “A very talented, highly-skilled, un-be-lievable outside left. He’ll turn him in-side, out.” That last bit was delivered with a slight lean forwards, a point of emphasis as if he was explaining for the thousandth time just how good John Robertson was, but for some reason people just weren’t getting it." http://www.football365.com/news/john-robertson-brian-cloughs-underrated-genius
Sansom is a player, like the much older Alcides Ghiggia, whose life took a sad turn after playing days ended. He also played a rather un-sexy position in the 1980s in the UK - left back. But, in my humble opinion, he was one of England's absolute top left-backs of all time. Cole, Hapgood might be better but Sansom is in the conversation. He is PFA Team of the Year selection a record setting 8 times. That is more than Peter Shilton and Bryan Robson. It demonstrates just how consistently great Sansom was in his top years.
Its tough to find a lot of footage on him individually but here are some clips
Interview from 1984 when he was Captain of Arsenal
A few matches that he stars in:
Some select quotes
For a player who had a monopoly on his position in the England team for most of a decade and ended up with a gigantic 86 caps, the international career of left back Kenny Sansom was largely event-free. But this was exactly what his coaches - Ron Greenwood and Bobby Robson both rated him hugely - wanted from their defenders. The no-frills Sansom was consistent and cultured but greatly unfussy, doing the simple things well and relying on great timing in the tackle without ever resorting to brutality or shock tactics to keep wingers in check. Some say Derek Statham's rotten injury record partly contributed to Sansom's unwavering hold on the number 3 shirt; others felt he was head and shoulders above all who came up against him for the slot, even though Kenny's successes at club level consisted of entirely nothing until a League Cup win with Arsenal in 1987 gave him his only domestic honour. His debut came in 1979 when still a precocious talent with Crystal Palace after Ron Greenwood, feeling that his ageing defence needed a spring chicken, called up Sansom for the summer Home Internationals and played him in the middle game against Wales which ended 0-0.
"He defended soundly, tackled crisply, distributed the ball intelligently, and got up to support the attack so he was the all-round package" This was the rave review given to Kenny by Charlie George, one of Arsenal's former great strikers. IN his time at Palace, under Terry Venables, kenny had already gained a reputation as an attacking fullback who was equally at home in the opposition half of the field as he was in his own; happy to get forward in support of the midfield and front mean at any given moment and with the speed and awareness to get back to perform his defensive duties. Such was the impact Sansom made in his first season at Highbury that, by the end of it, he was voted the Club's player of the year by the supporters. The fans had been greatly impressed by his all-round ability - even in the air. At 5ft 8in he was by no means the tallest, but he won more than his fair share of aerials duels although he was noted for his near faultless first touch, his intelligent use of the ball and his unselfish support play. He wasn't a defender who favoured the lunging tackle, preferring instead to jockey his opponent away from the danger area before using his impeccable timing to make an interception at the vital moment. He wasn't often caught out and was rarely, if ever, given the runaround by even the liveliest of wide men. It was said that the only player to read situations as well as him was Paolo Maldini :blink: Kenny's leadership qualities are often underestimated, but he was undoubtedly valued by the players who took to the field behind him. However, a niggling injury and the arrival of Nigel Winterburn conspired to the end of Kenny's Highbury career. His role in nurturing the emergent Tony Adams would be vital to Arsenal's success of recent years, as would the enxample he set to his eventual replacement, Winterburn.
PESSTATS
I get where you are coming from but Rummenige was a really dynamic attacker and could play multiple attacking positions.
Secondly I'm not going for a traditional target man+ second striker. I wanted a more fluid and interchangeable strike partnership much like Yorke/Cole. Keegan was great making runs into the box, and despite his height scored plenty of great headed goals too. Hence he is the more reserved attacker.
i get it but it doesnt have to be a robust target man, someone playing of the shoulder(like Romario for example) could work as well. Both Keegan and Kalle preferred to move around between the lines rather then behind.
@oneniltothearsenal feck me thats a lot of text and footage! cheers, will go through that tomorrow
@Šjor Bepo ... it's hard to describe Sansom. As one comment says, he just defended. Nigel Winterburn replaced him and won shed-loads at Arsenal but not because of a difference in ability, just Sansom was in the wrong place at the wrong time (trophy wise). It's not trendy nowadays for fullbacks to 'only' defend but he did.... very well. You don't get that many England caps otherwise.
@oneniltothearsenal ... loving the write-ups, only thing is how short they are. Got any longer ones? Maybe with chapters...
In all honesty, I love reading about the Forest team and I hope foreign posters will google them and learn about their story (as I have about teams you lot have posted about). I imagine @Gio will have something to add given their Scottish players (Scotland had some great players late 70s/early 80s).
It always makes me laugh how people went on about Leicester being the greatest miracle in football... yes, very unusual but what Forest did was miles harder. Got promoted (not as champions) and won the league, then back to back European Cups .... staggering. This at a time of strong Euro teams and a great Liverpool team (who they knocked out in R1) and what makes it all the more miraculous is the complete hotch-potch of players that Clough moulded together (google Kenny Burns or Larry Lloyd - Lloyd's signing-on ‘fee’ was a washing machine!)
Part of that was John Robertson... small, a bit chunky, not amazingly fast but great feet, great feint and a very good player?
Good teams. Think 2mufc has a slight edge. Not really sure on Tigana-Prohaska-Savicevic midfield. Think he could have done with a dedicated defensive presence or a destroyer DM would have been between with either.
Why is Prohaska playing so deep? From my recollection he was always more of a 10-ish number 8, not a deep-lying playmaker; and it would be him, not Tigana, who will be running into the opponent's box. Seemed strange.
Refreshing to see Rummenigge in a
4-4-2
Front duo
Kalle/Keegan seems a little unorthodox but I can see it working perfectly, plus the whole team is going to help out defensively, which is always a requirement for a good functioning 4-4-2.
While it's easier to depict Kalle as a SS, he was much more than that - and more than capable of leading the line. This quality seems to be overlooked when he is playing in one of those drafts, as mostly he gets a wing-forward position. Plus Keegan (a pure SS at his finest) adds lots of physicality and pressure up front that is usually associated with more target-man-ish strikers a-la Drogba
I like onenil's attack more than mufc's to be honest. Romario would have loved such a front 4 setup IMO.
Not fully sold on Rummenigge in the No.9 role. Two 9.5's in Keegan and Kalle ala Rooney and Rvp? Maybe.
Voted for mufc either ways simply because of the defence which easily is a level above onenil's.
I like onenil's attack more than mufc's to be honest. Romario would have loved such a front 4 setup IMO.
Not fully sold on Rummenigge in the No.9 role. Two 9.5's in Keegan and Kalle ala Rooney and Rvp? Maybe.
Voted for mufc either ways simply because of the defence which easily is a level above onenil's.
Definitely disagree there - not that it matters much. Lesser known names on my defense but not much between them certainly not a "level". Dorner is about same level as Krol as a CB though much less well known. I can see Krol rated slightly higher but a level above? Nope.
Sansom is easily a level above Gordillo IMO though for some reason is not as well known these days. Adams and De Leon probably tilts to Adams but not by much imo. Tony is one of my favorites but not a level above De Leon. Nelinho is a level above Gerets as an attacking side back though you might argue Gerets is slightly better defensively.
i get it but it doesnt have to be a robust target man, someone playing of the shoulder(like Romario for example) could work as well. Both Keegan and Kalle preferred to move around between the lines rather then behind.
@oneniltothearsenal feck me thats a lot of text and footage! cheers, will go through that tomorrow
@Šjor Bepo ... it's hard to describe Sansom. As one comment says, he just defended. Nigel Winterburn replaced him and won shed-loads at Arsenal but not because of a difference in ability, just Sansom was in the wrong place at the wrong time (trophy wise). It's not trendy nowadays for fullbacks to 'only' defend but he did.... very well. You don't get that many England caps otherwise.
@oneniltothearsenal ... loving the write-ups, only thing is how short they are. Got any longer ones? Maybe with chapters...
In all honesty, I love reading about the Forest team and I hope foreign posters will google them and learn about their story (as I have about teams you lot have posted about). I imagine @Gio will have something to add given their Scottish players (Scotland had some great players late 70s/early 80s).
It always makes me laugh how people went on about Leicester being the greatest miracle in football... yes, very unusual but what Forest did was miles harder. Got promoted (not as champions) and won the league, then back to back European Cups .... staggering. This at a time of strong Euro teams and a great Liverpool team (who they knocked out in R1) and what makes it all the more miraculous is the complete hotch-potch of players that Clough moulded together (google Kenny Burns or Larry Lloyd - Lloyd's signing-on ‘fee’ was a washing machine!)
Part of that was John Robertson... small, a bit chunky, not amazingly fast but great feet, great feint and a very good player?
Definitely disagree there - not that it matters much. Lesser known names on my defense but not much between them certainly not a "level". Dorner is about same level as Krol as a CB though much less well known. I can see Krol rated slightly higher but a level above? Nope.
Sansom is easily a level above Gordillo IMO though for some reason is not as well known these days. Adams and De Leon probably tilts to Adams but not by much imo. Tony is one of my favorites but not a level above De Leon. Nelinho is a level above Gerets as an attacking side back though you might argue Gerets is slightly better defensively.
Individually, maybe not. But as a whole, I felt so and completely understandable if others don't.
I like Gordillo more than Sansom here because of the 4-4-2. Robertson would have appreciated support down the left.
I understand the rationale behind only 1 attacking FB but Boniek/Savicevic could have done without a wing back I think.
Definitely disagree there - not that it matters much. Lesser known names on my defense but not much between them certainly not a "level". Dorner is about same level as Krol as a CB though much less well known. I can see Krol rated slightly higher but a level above? Nope.
Sansom is easily a level above Gordillo IMO though for some reason is not as well known these days. Adams and De Leon probably tilts to Adams but not by much imo. Tony is one of my favorites but not a level above De Leon. Nelinho is a level above Gerets as an attacking side back though you might argue Gerets is slightly better defensively.
I know we are supposed to sell our players, but really? Krol is probably a top 5 defender in this whole draft and would make most peoples top 10 sweepers of all time. Can't say the same for Dorner (who was a good player no doubt).
And Sansom according to the writeup and information appears to have been a solid defensive full back, Gordillo was a better allrounder.
Brilliant stuff on Sansom and Robertson @oneniltothearsenal . I was honestly favouring 2mufc and I'm still hesitant to pull the trigger against him, but that sort of research and selling of players does hold sway for me.
Individually, maybe not. But as a whole, I felt so and completely understandable if others don't.
I like Gordillo more than Sansom here because of the 4-4-2. Robertson would have appreciated support down the left.
I understand the rationale behind only 1 attacking FB but Boniek/Savicevic could have done without a wing back I think.
Not sure. He had Colin Barrett and Frank Clark playing behind him and don't see either as an overlapping FB. Robertson was very much his own man/player... amble up to the opposing RB, decide which way to feint then cut inside or (more often than not), nudge it down the line and get a cross in.
The goal against Malmo in the EC Final is a typical example of what he was like.
Brilliant stuff on Sansom and Robertson @oneniltothearsenal . I was honestly favouring 2mufc and I'm still hesitant to pull the trigger against him, but that sort of research and selling of players does hold sway for me.
It's great that "unknown" foreign players get highlighted like the Austrians, East Germans, Polish, etc but similar British players (especially 70s/80s) seems to get underrated at times. Some sort of black hole despite English clubs winning the EC 6 years on the bounce within that period.
Sansom was 4th/5th all time England caps when he retired and only people like Charlton, Moore, etc above him. He just played in an Arsenal/England team that wasn't great or winning much.
Apart from being a consistently good player, Robertson set up one EC Final winner and scored the winner in another (against a very good Hamburg team who trounced Real) yet hardly gets remembered. Go figure?
Not sure. He had Colin Barrett and Frank Clark playing behind him and don't see either as an overlapping FB. Robertson was very much his own man/player... amble up to the opposing RB, decide which way to feint then cut inside or (more often than not), nudge it down the line and get a cross in.
The goal against Malmo in the EC Final is a typical example of what he was like.
Yeah. If anything there'd probably too much individualism in a Gordillo/Robertson partnership, I think Sansom is a more natural partner there and great to see him finally get a run out in a draft. That consistency during the 80s is underappreciated. Not that I necessarily agree with onenil that Sansom is better, as Gordillo was absolute class with such a deft touch. Point being they probably suit their respective teams better.
I like your team particularly in midfield and Romario up front.
@2mufc0 I really don't feel Keegan/Kalle would be a good pairing. You do have a stellar midfield and defence but something is a bit off to me in attack.
Why is Prohaska playing so deep? From my recollection he was always more of a 10-ish number 8, not a deep-lying playmaker; and it would be him, not Tigana, who will be running into the opponent's box. Seemed strange.
Refreshing to see Rummenigge in a
4-4-2
Front duo
Kalle/Keegan seems a little unorthodox but I can see it working perfectly, plus the whole team is going to help out defensively, which is always a requirement for a good functioning 4-4-2.
My take on things as well. I like that all-rounded pair: plenty of physicality to suit a 4-4-2 and to attack the crosses supplied by Gadocha and Donadoni.
I know we are supposed to sell our players, but really? Krol is probably a top 5 defender in this whole draft and would make most peoples top 10 sweepers of all time. Can't say the same for Dorner (who was a good player no doubt).
And Sansom according to the writeup and information appears to have been a solid defensive full back, Gordillo was a better allrounder.
I said Krol and Dorner are same tier. Itd okay to believe Krol is better - but I dont see Krol as a whole level or tier higher is my point. If you watch a bit of Dorner youll see there is not some entire level between them as the other guy said.
Also I think some of those 80s Spaniards are overrated in hindsight due to Spain being so popular now. From what I have seen Sansom was a better all around full back than gordillo. Gordillo might have been better at pure attacking sense but then the comparison would be more apt with Nelinho-Gordillo and Sansom-Gerets. In that case I don't think its even a debate that Nelinho was a superior attacker to Gordillo.
Just to clarify, I meant the defence as a whole and not individually.
Probably, my understanding of the setup is different from others, so I would leave the LB discussion aside, but I think hardly anyone would say man to man the rest 3 defenders are not better in his team.
When 3/4th of the defence is better individually (even if not by a tier), I tend to rate the defence as a whole a tier higher.
Again, feel free to disagree, which I guess is the point of drafts
I said Krol and Dorner are same tier. Itd okay to believe Krol is better - but I dont see Krol as a whole level or tier higher is my point. If you watch a bit of Dorner youll see there is not some entire level between them as the other guy said.
I waited until the match was over then I asked you to not make any more off topic posts in match threads from some leftover off topic drama from last draft.
Don't think that is asking too much to keep posts in match threads about the actual match itself not off topic rubbish.
You're familiar with these drafts so you knew it was challenging to gain a lot of votes but I'm sure your intention was only to highlight some forgotten players.
Bit late for the purposes of this game, but still worth highlighting the quality of some of these players. You've sold Robertson very well. His legacy is more 'cult hero' which is fair enough, but underplays the influence of somebody who effectively decided a European Cup, and whose mastery of the ball should have saw him better rated abroad because he wasn't primarily about the traditional British blood-and-thunder traits.
Kenny Burns too is underappreciated for his impact on a very effective defensive unit for Forest. This might be his draft debut (he might have made an appearance in the British & Irish draft) which is somewhat harsh.
We did feck things up in 1978. The talent of the squad was simply not capitalised on. There was quality at the back: a pair of world-class full-backs in Jardine and McGrain (who unfortunately missed out with injury), a pool of solid centre halves (Burns, Buchan, McQueen). Some great options in midfield with Souness, Gemmill and Robertson, then some proper quality up top with Dalglish in his prime to partner one from a pool of fine centre forwards (Jordan, Gray, Harper, Johnstone). Simply put and unlike the strong English club sides of the era, we were unprepared for opposition we criminally under-rated. We thought Peru's flying winger Oblitas played on the right, yet he played on the left and tore our right flank to shreds. Souness didn't even start until the final game against the Dutch.
Let me think about that game and read the 7 pages.
