P&G Draft - SF: Theon/Gio vs onenil

[Himannv]

Batistuta does have a bit of a height advantage over both Chumpitaz and Koeman and that might be significant considering the kind of service he might get from those wingbacks and Rivaldo. When you throw Maradona into the mix it becomes slightly overwhelming. I think Maldini is probably the best defender on the pitch, so it's a pity he's on the left in this matchup.

On the other side of the coin, I do think Cruyff is one of the best attacking players of all time and he has a team around him that will play his way for most part. I like teams that attack.

Will see how the discussion goes before voting.

 

[2mufc0]

I really like what onenil is trying to do here but apart for Cruyff he's missing goal scoring firepower, Gio's front 3 is fantastic and although Barzagli and Chiellini are underwhelming at this stage Scirea is a great addition to the back line.

But saying that i like it when drafters show some creativity and ingenuity and onenil deserves credit for it.

 

[Gio]

GAETANO SCIREA

'The greatest libero of all time'​

• One of only 5 European players of all time to have won all club international trophies
• One of only 9 players to have won all 3 European club competitions
• Marshalled what Baresi considers to be the best defence of all time - his Juventus side which conceded 0.45 goals per game between 1980 and 1982
• Man of the Match in a World Cup Final as led his country to the ultimate success fending off some of the greatest attacks

Once ensconced with La Vecchia Signora, Scirea would mature into one of the finest players ever to grace his position and just a year later would become a regular fixture in Enzo Bearzot's national side. By 1976, Trapattoni had arrived and he utilised Scirea's penchant for attacking as a regular feature of Juve's play. He would be a key figure as La Madama swept all before her and won a league and UEFA Cup double that sealed a place for both the club and its most prominent defenders as the continent's best. Even in a land famous for producing the most complete defenders in the history of the game, Scirea stood alone in a sweeper role that has sadly become extinct in the modern age. Reading the game perfectly, perhaps only the great Franz Beckenbauer came close to the Juventus man in terms of grace, elegance, composure and intelligence.

Juventus: A History in Black and White, by Adam Digby.​

QUOTES
​

He was absolute class. His speed, his movement, how graceful he was. He used to be able to dispossess his opponents without going into fierce tackles. He did so with utter class and great timing.

In the previous game he had injured the front of his foot. The opposition stamped on his foot to try and cut it. He was on the pitch for the next match and played without fear. He only used his right foot to turn and play the ball with his instep. He did everything else with his left and he did it so naturally that I was amazed. That's when I began to appreciate his ability and his fitness levels.

At the time it was common for the goalkeeper to launch the ball upfield. With him though, we began to build moves from the back up the flanks. We started to build the play from the back just the same as they do now. You could always find Scirea: it was very hard not to find him. Wherever you were, he was not far away and he was always an important figure.

He was very quick and technical and when he brought it forward he became an extra midfielder.

What I would have loved to steal from him was his grace and his command of the ball. He would often win the ball off opponents without them even noticing - without committing fouls, without any difficulty. He also used to score goals that I couldn't. He was always making the right run, so I tried to reproduce his qualities.

He knew I played the same position as him and that I could pinch his spot. But he always made me feel at ease and I always admired him for that. He got booked at the start of the World Cup, so I said to myself 'if he gets booked again, he'll be suspended and I might get to play.' But I hoped he wouldn't because it would have been very hard to replace him and play in that team.

He had all the attributes to play as a sweeper - he was sharp and intelligent. A modern sweeper because he didn't always mark from behind. He was also the first to bring the ball forward.

Playing in defence you had to make the odd tough challenge. But he just got there, nipped the ball and dribbled past his opponent and he was away.

He had great timing and he was able to predict certain moves. In his position I think he was one of the best players of all time.

​

MATCH COMPILATIONS:​

Spoiler: v Hamburg in the 1983 European Cup Final

Spoiler: v Barcelona in the 1986 European Cup Quarter Final

Spoiler: v Ajax in the 1978 European Cup

 

[Enigma_87]

Koeman does stick out for me a bit. I rate him higher than others do, but this is not the kind of front 3 you would want him against.

Maldini too looks really under used at this stage with only Cafu to worry about on the right with a hard working Ribery already on that side too.

I am not sure who is on the bench, but think moving Maldini to the centre would have been a better idea in this game. I get the idea behind the philosophy and hence the Koeman pick, but this is just not the game he would shine in for me.

Scirea is a great addition. Should have been done at least a round earlier.

Going with Theon.

Pretty much my thoughts on the game as well.

 

[Physiocrat]

This match has had about as much action as an Andrei Tarkovsky film

 

[Jim Beam]

@Jim Beam @Indnyc

Oh come one. The Maradona article is a bit over the top but it doesnt really take itself seriously on that level you seem to be taking. My only point in posting in good fun is that it does have stats and arguments that go against the often perception that Maradona is a one man unstoppable force in his trophy wins.

Not meant for title to be taken so literally. And Cruyff does get underrated in recent years in my opinion. I really dont think there is very much between Cruyff and Maradona historically at their peaks. Cruyff genius is a bit forgotten recently.

I didn't take it too seriously tbh, some interesting stats and data, though.

Went with Theon/gio, attacking power in that front three is just slightly superior and gives them the edge. As much, as I do love Cruyff and there is certainly a case to be made that he is a bit underrated when we talk about GOAT level. For me, there is no difference between him and Maradona in terms how they can grab the game on their own and be practically impossible to contain. In this case, Diego just has a bit better conditions to shine imo.

Love the general idea and the team from onenil.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

This match has had about as much action as an Andrei Tarkovsky film

Well part of that is because the match was supposed to start Thursday so I actually re-organizes my entire work schedule to be online more on Thursday from GMT morning to afternoon then Theon and Gio go MIA all day until the very last few minutes of Thursday GMT when suddenly both of them are magically online to start double posting in thread.

So I guess neither of them could have possibly produced a short write-up all week up until the very last few minutes on Thursday night? But they both start double posting which has long been mentioned as an issue.

Oh and then Theon whining in PM about videos and he starts name calling when called out

 

[Physiocrat]

Well part of that is because the match was supposed to start Thursday so I actually re-organizes my entire work schedule to be online more on Thursday from GMT morning to afternoon then Theon and Gio go MIA all day until the very last few minutes of Thursday GMT when suddenly both of them are magically online to start double posting in thread.

So I guess neither of them could have possibly produced a short write-up all week up until the very last few minutes on Thursday night? But they both start double posting which has long been mentioned as an issue.

Oh and then Theon whining in PM about videos and he starts name calling when called out

That would explain some of it yes, however can you tell me how high your defensive line is and whether Ribery and Conti are tracking back on a regular basis? Would both do it or just one at once

 

[Jim Beam]

That would explain some of it yes, however can you tell me how high your defensive line is and whether Ribery and Conti are tracking back on a regular basis? Would both do it or just one at once

And similar to all Tarkovsky movies we must find our own answers to some questions.

 

[Physiocrat]

And similar to all Tarkovsky movies we must find our own answers to some questions.

Indeed

 

[Theon]

Well part of that is because the match was supposed to start Thursday so I actually re-organizes my entire work schedule to be online more on Thursday from GMT morning to afternoon then Theon and Gio go MIA all day.

Sorry man but not sure where this has all come from at this stage of the match. It was delayed for a few hours as I had work to finish and then two children to look after - obviously it's annoying but real life responsibilities take precedence over Redcafe drafts.

Obviously I'll apologise if you think it's played a role in the score here, but I had no problems starting the match at any time convenient for you. When I knew I couldn't send something by 7.00pm I tagged you in the thread and asked whether you wanted to move the time but you didn't respond.

Given your timezone I ended up going to bed way before you anyway and I've posted a Grand Total of 0 times today, so in all honesty I don't think it's played any sort of role here.

 

[antohan]

Not sure why Rivaldo is now starting ahead of Del Piero. I liked it better with him and have a gut feel Rivaldo and Maradona would not gel at all. Same goes for Rivaldo and Batistuta...

That Maradona-Bati duo didn't need a Rivaldo but more of a "great player but clear and willing second fiddle".

 

[harms]

Not sure why Rivaldo is now starting ahead of Del Piero. I liked it better with him and have a gut feel Rivaldo and Maradona would not gel at all. Same goes for Rivaldo and Batistuta...

That Maradona-Bati duo didn't need a Rivaldo but more of a "great player but clear and willing second fiddle".

Here's their answer (as we brought up similar concerns in the main thread)

Nah not having that, I love Del Piero but Rivaldo was clearly a level above as a player. I'd have Del Piero around the Totti level, world class but a level below the best of their eras. Disagree that Del Piero was underrated as well, I think he gets a fair run in these things and he's a bit of a hipsters favourite given his early years in peak 90s Serie A.

In my opinion its Rivaldo who often gets underrated. Whilst at Barcelona he scored 116 goals in four seasons, which is excellent considering he was never a striker and Van Gaal's tendency to play him on the left. In terms of achievements he was the best player in the world at his peak and won the Ballon d'Or as a left sided forward at Barca, was voted best player in the '99 Copa America with Brazil (scoring a superb second goal in the final vs Uruguay) and was the best player in the '02 World Cup (as well as also making team of the tournament in '98). I don't think Del Piero ever quite hit those heights, excellent though he was.

Had Del Piero not suffered that injury in 1998, it would have been interesting to see how his career panned out. It's almost inevitable that he would have played a more central role had he continued that talismanic 1997/98 form. Post-98 career more statesmanlike than tour de force, but fully agree he was superb for Juventus ahead of Zidane.

To me Rivaldo is proven at the very top level both as facilitator and as the main man. Nobody facilitated Ronaldo better than Rivaldo. At the 1998 World Cup, Rivaldo was - to all intents and purposes - a support act to Ronaldo, but delivered a strong tournament supporting a guy who was almost a one-man attack at times. One thing that struck me about their partnership is how often Rivaldo peeled wide to open up space and deliver a telling ball or cross into Ronaldo's path. Best examples off the top of my head would be the 1998 semi-final against Holland and in the opening match in 2002 against Turkey. That instinct to stretch the play wide is something that Maradona would relish IMO, as it creates space for him to attack. As for their relationship, at Barcelona he played some of his best football alongside other major creative forces - such as Luis Figo when they played off opposite flanks under Van Gaal, or a classic central creative 10/9.5 in Giovanni who he loved playing alongside. And obviously in 2002, Rivaldo dovetailed off a ball-holding 10 in Ronaldinho as well as Ronaldo again in a unit that managed to be even greater than the already considerable sum of its parts.

 

[Theon]

Nah, this is the answer @harms @antohan

Absolutely agree there was no need to upgrade ADP but I felt that about most of my team. Sure people will question Mascherano and did consider upgrading him, but ultimately I think he's perfect there as a dedicated ball-winner and whilst he's not a vote-winning name I don't think there's many who could play that role better.

But yeah, in terms of Rivaldo I think he's a superior player and imo the better tactical fit as well so see it as a clear upgrade personally. I’m a big fan of Del Piero and tactically he provided a lot of what I was looking for in that second striker role, particularly his selflessness and ability to roam and forage across the front line and into wider areas, but he was always likely to be upgraded for more of a goalscorer at some stage which is what I needed with Maradona pulling the strings. Along with Rivaldo was also considering Thierry Henry, as offers similar movement but more significant goal threat than Del Piero. Quite liked the idea of his pace as well.

Second thing I wanted was some natural width and whilst Del Piero could roam anywhere he had a tendency to drop deep into central areas whereas Rivaldo offers a far more natural presence outside on the left, particularly with his crossing ability which is something you don’t get as much with Del Piero (who tended to constantly cut in on his right foot). Rivaldo had a fantastic cross so adds a new dimension and not as worried about losing the dynamism in the middle.

Final reason is I just consider him a level above Del Piero as a player, he had a much longer sustained peak (obviously impacted by the injury) and was the best player in the world at his peak, as well as the best player at a World Cup playing this same role (rate his '02 performances higher than Ronaldo's despite the latter getting the golden ball). I'm surprised it's been questioned personally, for me it was an obvious upgrade and I think there is a realistic shout for Rivaldo being the best ever option in that left-sided second-striker position with Diego. There's probably some other candidates but can't think of anyone else I'd prefer.

 

[Theon]

Not sure why Rivaldo is now starting ahead of Del Piero. I liked it better with him and have a gut feel Rivaldo and Maradona would not gel at all. Same goes for Rivaldo and Batistuta...

That Maradona-Bati duo didn't need a Rivaldo but more of a "great player but clear and willing second fiddle".

I'd agree Del Piero was the more selfless runner but I don't think Rivaldo has ever shown an inability to dovetail with other great players. He's primarily a goalscorer as opposed to a playmaker so I don't see overlap issues with Diego in the way someone like Ronaldinho would have encountered. I do get the comment though. Ultimately it was a case of:

1. Greater and purer goalthreat
2. More natural width from the second striker position
3. Superior player whilst retaining the deference and link up with Maradona

On the other point though I don't agree at all. For my money Batigol could play with anyone and I think he'd relish playing with Rivaldo, firstly because his dribbling and technical quality would cause havoc in dragging away defenders (which Bati is primed to exploit) and secondly because Rivaldo was a wonderful passer who had a peach of a cross on him. They'd link up brilliantly imo.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

There's some footage of Bessonov some might not have seen. I don't usually like this guy's highlights(though credit for the efforts, it's better than nothing) they are usually poor quality visually, just show a few of the more important goals a player scored and a lot of slow motion posing that doesn't really show much of what a player was all about, but this one does have some runs in it that works well in showing his ability to dribble and power past a player or two with ease. That was combined with a very good, tactically smart passing game from the first half of his career as a midfielder.

I don't like Marcelo and Rivaldo up against a partnership with Conti. Rivaldo will have offensive success against Bessonov of course, who is a high-skilled all-rounder with strengths tending towards attacking rather than an all-time defensive fullback like Maldini, but he was never much for defensive work out-wide, liked to drift inside and was slow compared to the Ukrainian....i can see him letting Bessonov power past him and set up attacks much more often than closing him down, then you have the option of a crossfield ball to Cruyff or doubling up on Marcelo. It won't be one-sided by any means, but overall i think that flank with bessonov and Conti provides a more tactically intelligent and balanced flank with better chances of the two combining well. If it would be key in winning the game i'm not sure though.

 

[Theon]

Cheers for the input @Demyanenko_square_jaw always great when people add insights such as that to the thread.

Agree with the defensive criticism of Rivaldo compared to Conti, that goes without saying. Wouldn't say he was any slower though - Rivaldo had those big long strides and he could really move when he was in full flow.

In terms of offensive impact I'd agree that the opposition right flank would have some success, but at the same time imo Marcelo / Rivaldo is about a dangerous flank as you can muster offensively and they should pose real problems going the other way. As a partnership I think the natural inclination of Rivaldo to cut inside is well complimented by Marcelo's more typical wing-play, and I can see them tying the defence in knots with runs both inside and outside Bezsonov. It's not unlike the partnership Marcelo previously had with Ronaldo, who would cut inside and leave Marcelo the space for the overlap.

 

[antohan]

Some good points, some terrible ones, still can't quite see it.

One big thing to have around Diego is willing runners when he kicks off from deep. Burruchaga, Caniggia... they caught on like a house on fire and their movement was all about playing off Diego while Diego's was all about dragging everyone around but all the while being very acutely aware of where his runners were now, and where they would go relative to other defenders, and basically when would be the time to pass, to whom and exactly where he would place the ball for him. He knew it all a long time before it happened and those of us watching only realised what he was seeing a second after he had executed it.

The guy's genius was computing all that and being a few seconds ahead of anyone else on the pitch while dribbling and under pressure from a bunch of players. That's what made him sensational. Not his great solo efforts but his brilliance at consistently setting things up on a plate for others. Just like what @Gio describes Rivaldo doing for Ronaldo, problem being Rivaldo isn't Ronaldo.

 

[Gio]

But they both start double posting which has long been mentioned as an issue.

To be fair that was a mistake based on the assumption Theon had gone to bed while he probably thought I’d done the same. Which I already apologised for and then didn’t post again until he was well away. It was hardly a big onslaught or anything.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not sure why Rivaldo is now starting ahead of Del Piero. I liked it better with him and have a gut feel Rivaldo and Maradona would not gel at all. Same goes for Rivaldo and Batistuta...

That Maradona-Bati duo didn't need a Rivaldo but more of a "great player but clear and willing second fiddle".

Nail on the head.

Rivaldo and Maradona are both 'on the ball' players. They need the ball to do the magic. What is needed is a off the ball player who can open up defence, pull defenders out and play a foil. In this case the whole is probably lesser than sum of its parts.

Scirea is a astute addition and adds lot of value to the defence. Like onenil's team, but he lack the goal threat to carry this game.


The nut in me wants Theon to

Spoiler

sell Rivaldo and go to the format he won the world cup in.

.................Batistuta........
.........Maradona...............
...Cambiasso.....Schuster...
.............Schweini.............

 

[Theon]

Rivaldo and Maradona are both 'on the ball' players. They need the ball to do the magic.

You’ve voted for a team with Cruyff and Sócrates .

Disagree that Rivaldo was an on the ball player who’d struggle to operate with another great - he’s shown that to be untrue throughout his career. Rivaldo was a goalscorer at his best, he’s not interested in picking up possession deep in midfield. He was always a decisive final third player.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

You’ve voted for a team with Cruyff and Sócrates .

Ah, don't let it bother you. I think you'll win this match.

he’s not interested in picking up possession deep in midfield.

That wasn't prime Maradona either. Both in NT and Napoli he was amongst the top goalscorers. He'd be the one driving the ball forward. Rivaldo excelled in similar.

 

[Theon]

That wasn't prime Maradona either. Both in NT and Napoli he was amongst the top goalscorers. He'd be the one driving the ball forward. Rivaldo excelled in similar.

Yep completely agree Diego would be the one driving the ball forward. He was an extremely direct player.

Disagree he wouldn’t drop deep though, Maradona would regularly drive it forward from his own half. Rivaldo was more of a second striker, I don’t think he ever had the tendency to drop as deep as Diego did and I don’t think he was as instrumental to the build up. My recollection of Rivaldo is that other players transitioned the ball forward and he tended to produce decisive actions in the final third.

They’re both very direct players though which is one of the reasons I see it working. Diego undoubtedly the fulcrum on the ball though particularly through midfield.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

....

The only apology I am interested in is you apologizing for name calling and personal insults in PM.

 

[Theon]

The only apology I am interested in is you apologizing for name calling and personal insults in PM.

For anyone interested in this, I called him a child and said that his accusations were pathetic. Probably not what you were expecting based on his message above.

@Physiocrat was in the conversation and can confirm I didn’t send any ‘personal insults’ in PM.

Reason I called him a child is because two thirds through the match onenil accused Gio and I of cheating because the match was delayed by a few hours, I asked us to limit unspoilered videos and Gio was double posting.

Found the whole thing is a bit ridiculous really and unfortunately put a bit of a dampener on the match.

 

[Jim Beam]

Outrageous

imo

 

[Physiocrat]

I can confirm the only "personal insults" delivered by Theon was to call Onenil a child and that his accusations were pathetic.

 

[Theon]

Vindicated. Feels good man.

My impeccable reputation remains intact.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

For anyone interested in this, I called him a child and said that his accusations were pathetic. Probably not what you were expecting based on his message above.

@Physiocrat was in the conversation and can confirm I didn’t send any ‘personal insults’ in PM.

Reason I called him a child is because two thirds through the match onenil accused Gio and I of cheating because the match was delayed by a few hours, I asked us to limit unspoilered videos and Gio was double posting.

Found the whole thing is a bit ridiculous really and unfortunately put a bit of a dampener on the match.

Actually you said "pathetic sore loser" which is exactly name calling and personal insults and violates the terms of service of this site.

I also never said you "cheated" I said you were playing dirty tricks - which is 100% true just like you trying to have an unnamed AM last time. If we all acted as immature as you and used your level of language the site would quickly devolve into name calling and flame wars like most of the internet.

As you are clearly the type of person to lie and misrepresent the truth in addition to violating the terms of service of the site and not take responsibility for your behavior, I think you basically proved my point that you never had the intention of arguing in good faith. Next time I wont give your actions the benefit of the doubt and I will report you for violating the ToS of Redcafe.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I can confirm the only "personal insults" delivered by Theon was to call Onenil a child and that his accusations were pathetic.

Can you quote the exact words? That is exactly the definition of name calling and personal insults.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Come on lads. Let's not do this.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Come on lads. Let's not do this.

Then Theon needs to apologize and not double down on name calling and personal insults. "pathetic sore loser" is a violation of the ToS of this site. If Theon can't follow the rules and doubles down on being deliberately offensive he is going to get called out on it. There is a proper way to communicate even if you are upset and name calling and acting like Theon has is not that way. I already regret not just reporting Theon for ToS violations because he clearly thinks his behavior is acceptable when it is not.

 

[Theon]

I never called you that. Will await @Physiocrat ’s comments who is unbiased and was in the thread.

You accused Gio and I of cheating because a draft game was delayed three hours. You did that because you were losing and I called you a child.

Your behaviour is beyond embarrassing quite frankly.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I never called you that. Will await @Physiocrat ’s comments who is unbiased and was in the thread.

You accused Gio and I of cheating because a draft game was delayed three hours. You did that because you were losing and I called you a child.

Your behaviour is beyond embarrassing quite frankly.

Your reading comprehension is clearly poor as I posted in this thread exactly what I posted in PM and never did I say 'cheating' which has a specific meaning. So now you are lying in addition to name calling. Its really revealing how you keep defending your name calling instead of just apologizing like any mature person would do. And you keep going with the subtle insults making this worse

Oh and it wasn't delayed "three hours" it was delayed the entire fecking day.

 

[idmanager]

Is this stemming from the Bergkamp feud you guys had? If it is, I am happy to have been a part of it

Also, maybe both of you calm down and forget it. Clearly its the two egos at battle and nothing more.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Is this stemming from the Bergkamp feud you guys had? If it is, I am happy to have been a part of it

Also, maybe both of you calm down and forget it. Clearly its the two egos at battle and nothing more.

Its stemming from Theon's name calling in PM which he seems to defend as justified and how he thinks people should behave. If he just apologized for the name calling this would have been over days ago. But it looks like saying "Sorry I could have phrased that better" was too much for someone to say

 

[Theon]

Is this stemming from the Bergkamp feud you guys had? If it is, I am happy to have been a part of it

Also, maybe both of you calm down and forget it. Clearly its the two egos at battle and nothing more.

I’m calm as can be. This guy has clearly lost it.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I’m calm as can be. This guy has clearly lost it.

You really can't post without the subtle insults can you. Keep digging

 

[idmanager]

Its stemming from Theon's name calling in PM which he seems to defend as justified and how he thinks people should behave. If he just apologized for the name calling this would have been over days ago. But it looks like saying "Sorry I could have phrased that better" was too much for someone to say

I’m calm as can be. This guy has clearly lost it.

You know in Indian arranged marriages, we let both husband and wife rant for a while alone without anyone interuppting them and then we move on. Not your stupid western divorces.

You guys have ranted enough, so as I said move on. Obviously you are two good drafters and likely to meet again in the knockouts of someother draft. So save it for then.

 

[Physiocrat]

To hopefully clear it up this is what happened.

1. Theon PMs me and Onenil asking him to keep to 5 unspoilered videos per match thread. Onenil says he didn't agree to this rule but says he's happy to comply. I state we came up with the rule in discussions during the main draft thread.

And now to the three posts which have caused all the trouble.

Naw that was never agreed to by the majority but Theon already pulled put every dirty trick.

Delaying the match start till the last minute, double posting with Gio, and then this bullshit about videos that only Theon ever agreed whatever

That’s insane. You absolute child.

Genuinely that’s pathetic..

Finally my comments to both of them in the thread which i stand by -

1. Whilst the rule wasn't agreed by everyone the people who commented (harms and Engima amongst others IIRC) thought it was a good compromise. It's also not hard to abide by nor limits what you can post, just makes you prioritise.

2. Theon's communication over the past few days could have been better (e.g. checking for notifications at more regular intervals) and can understand marking out time to post but the game not happenong being very annoying. However very is little evidence of being malicious, neither does the double posting - in my experience Gio has always been a courteous poster.

@oneniltothearsenal @Theon