The Road Trip Draft QF - Enigma vs Pat/Skizzo

Who will win this match?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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VS

.......................................... TEAM ENIGMA ................................................................................. TEAM SKIZZO/PAT ......................................


TEAM ENIGMA

Formation:- 4-3-3 fluid, interchanging.
Defensive line:- Normal.
Style:- Direct, fast tempo. Limit the opposition creative players by controlling the midfield and break at every opportunity. Open up the flanks and stretch the play. Messi and Ronaldinho to cut inside, and either attack or link-up. Breitner to test the opposition keeper from distance and along with Vieira making late runs in the box.

GK:- Gordon Banks - Considered by many to be amongst the Top-3 goalkeepers of all time, Gordon Banks will forever be remembered for his save from Pelé's header during the 1970 World Cup and rightly so. Yet those who saw Banks play knew he was capable of repeating such saves week after week. He wasn't just great - he was consistently on top of his game and a Banks' mistake was very rare indeed.

LB:- Giacinto Facchetti -
One of the greatest, most pioneering and era-defining players of his time. This was a man – who above all else played the game with impeccable spirit and morality – who was decades ahead of his time at full-back; a man who scored 75 goals in over 600 games for a largely defensive Inter Milan. The greatest left wing-back of all time.

LCB:- Bobby Moore - Sir Geoff Hurst said he was his hero, Sir Alf Ramsey claims he was the best he ever worked with and England would never have won the World Cup without him. Franz Beckenbauer, an opponent in that 1966 final, called him "the best defender in the history of the game" and Pelé attested to that as well. A supreme reader of the game, excellent tackler and a true leader of the defence he's one of the best in history to stop Muller in this game.

RCB:- Ciro Ferrara -
An immovable object and an unstoppable force. The lynchpin of the all-conquering Juventus side in the late 90s and early 21st century, Ciro Ferrara was one of the greatest defenders of all-time. But what made him so unique? It is worryingly uncommon, even in the modern game, that we see a defender with considerable technical ability, so much so, that when such a player even shows signs of emerging, they’re a highly sought after commodity. Ciro Ferrara had this ability in abundance; often seen marauding forward out of defence with players in tow, or reading and intercepting passes as they were made; he was always several steps ahead of his opponents. Throughout his 20-year playing career, Ferrara made an impressive 500 appearances shared between Napoli and Juventus. A commanding presence at the back and a remarkable ability to turn defence into attack; Ferrara was irreplaceable on the team sheet. Certain performances standout from Ferrara; a game between two Italian giants in Juventus and Inter in the 97/98 season saw Ferrara come up against an on fire Ronaldo. The rest is history.
Ferrara occupied an unenviable position, marking often regarded the greatest Brazilian striker of all-time behind Pele. Regardless, he managed to get forward, play key passes and outmuscle Ronaldo on several occasions, keeping the attacker relatively quiet. This game wasn’t unique, a great performance yes, but its just another example of Ferrara’s style; confident and formidable, Ferrara didn’t shy away from big games and didn’t back out of tackles. He had a versatility that made him adaptable for any position across the back line. Combined with a manner with the ball that made him look like he belonged on any part of the field.

RB:- Carlos Alberto -
A player of great technique, elegancy, and strong character, "O Capitano Do Tri" is considered by many as the greatest right back to have graced the game of football. The captain of the greatest International side of all time, the Brazilian Team of 1970 FIFA World Cup. In the final match against Italy, he scored the fourth goal. It was the last and most memorable goal of that brilliant tournament. A thunderous finish to an outstanding collective play that symbolized the dominance of Brazil during that tournament, and that is to this date one of the most replayed goals in television, an all-time World Cup highlight.

CDM:- Fernando Redondo - The pure essence of elegance. A master at controlling the tempo of the game, the term "Rolls Royce Midfielder" is apt for Redondo. When you hear this name, the first thing that comes to mind is that outrageous and mesmerizing piece of skill at Old Trafford. But he was much more than that. It's hard to describe Redondo, because even if you think of the highest praise and the most eloquent descriptions, it just won't be enough to get a grasp of the magnitude of his legacy. So, we would just quote what two of the greatest managers of all time had to say about Fernando Redondo.

Sir Alex Ferguson:- "What does Redondo have in his boots? A magnet?"
Fabio Capello:- "Tactically Perfect!"
B2B:- Patrick Vieira - At his peak, Patrick Vieira was a footballing Death Star, a physical and technical monstrosity who decided games with one scything tackle or searching pass. If Thierry Henry was Arsenal’s superstar, then Vieira was its nuclear soul, an irresistible force of nature that made the midfield his personal, unconquerable universe. A complete midfielder who was silky but at the same time could be rough and hard when he had to. A true midfield general.

B2B:- Paul Breitner - Paul Breitner is one of German's greatest and most decorated football player of all time. The German footballer of the year 1981 was an outstanding athlete. He was strong, quick and had lots of stamina. As a midfielder, Breitner was an all-action packed midfielder. A box-to-box midfielder who tried to impose his will on the game by simply doing everything you can expect from a midfielder. Defending, winning back the possession, starting attacks, providing the final ball and score vital goals. One of the 4 players in the history of the game to have scored in multiple FIFA World Cup Finals. And, it wasn't just vital goals. He scored goals quite consistently as well. Constantly hitting double digits in terms of goals scored.

LWF:- Ronaldinho - A two-time FIFA World Player of the Year in 2004 and 2005 and one-time Ballon D'or winner in 2005, Ronaldinho is often considered as one of the most skillful players to have graced the football field. Renowned for his technique, flair, tricks, insane close-control and no-look passes, no one embodied the Joga Bonito spirit like Ronaldinho did. A true joy to watch.

RWF:- Lionel Messi - The GOAT. Goals, be it solo goals or outside the box or from free-kicks. Assists, be it through-balls to the other attacks or diagonal balls to the overlapping full-backs. Dribbling, be it one on one or one vs five/six. Lionel Messi ticks all the boxes. In terms of absolute peak as well as sheer consistency. The World Cup is all that is missing from Messi's résumé for him to be considered "The Undisputed GOAT".

ST:- Just Fontaine -
Mostly famous for breaking new ground with his incredible 13 goals at the 1958 FIFA World Cup, the former France legend Just Fontaine held the record 50 years on, making his the longest-surviving benchmark in sport.

In 1956, he joined Reims, the biggest club in France at the time, where he had the touch challenge replacing Real Madrid-bound Raymond Kopa. He succeeded beyond expectations, finding the back of the net 121 times in six seasons, including one year almost entirely lost to a serious leg injury. A recurrence of that knee injury forced him to retire at just 27 years old.

In total, the instinctive finisher fired 165 goals in 200 top-flight games, giving him an average of 0.825 strikes per match. He also topped the French scoring charts in both 1958 and 1960, coming second in 1957 and 1959. At the root of his prolific scoring rate was an ability to score from any angle, with both feet and his head. "I jump so high to head the ball that when I come down again I have snow in my hair," he joked. Fontaine 'had it all; he was two-footed, great in the air and had speed to burn'.

Defence:- Marshaled by Bobby Moore at his peak, alongside another fantastic defender in Ciro Ferrara who dovetails him nicely stylistically and the GOAT full backs in Facchetti and Carlos Alberto, we can claim to have one of the best defences in the draft, especially when it is protected by well oiled midfield trident in Redondo, Breitner and Vieira.

Midfield:- Redondo, Breitner and Vieira have it all in midfield - physicality, skills, passing ability and superior positional sense which can help us take control of the proceedings in midfield. The three of them have enough work rate, steel and silkiness on the ball to control the proceedings of the game, limit the opposition in terms of getting the ball to the flanks or Müller. Breitner is enormous asset going forward and he regularly scored around 20 goals per season in all comps from midfield. All three are excellent team players that support our attacking three.

Attack:- Messi has the biggest impact in attack on the pitch by far and is the most decisive player, who should win the game for us. Combined with a peak Ronaldinho and Fontaine our attack has the x-factor and unpredictability needed to dislodge the comfort of the opposition defenders and decide the match. With Fontaine attacking the space vacated by Beckenbauer and his top notch movement, it will create ample amount of space for the likes of Ronaldinho and Messi to thrive. Both are outstanding dribblers who are masters in tight spaces and could eviscerate any defender in one-on-one situations. So, they would require extra attention. Otherwise, its game-over. But its a pick your poison situation for the opposition. Because if they double up on Ronaldinho and Messi, that allows the two best wing-backs of all time, Facchetti and Carlos Alberto to maraud and dominate the games from the flanks and be the difference maker. And with late runs from Vieira and Breitner, it adds an extra dimension to our attack.

vs Skizzo/Pat:-
We are up against a very good team, but IMO we have more quality through our ranks. We're going with our attacking unit of Ronaldinho, Messi and Fontaine so that we can exploit the space left by Kaiser when he marches forward and also having Messi running in the space vacated by Roberto Carlos when going forward. As good as Roberto Carlos was going forward, he was kinda a loose cannon at the back and lacked the discipline to deal with top quality right wingers/wing-forwards. And in Messi, we have the perfect player, who with his pace and close-control who can take complete advantage and dominate that zone of then pitch. On the other flank, we trust Ronaldinho to get the better of Andrade, considering Facchetti also helping in attack and the former being a supreme dribbler on the ball.

Our midfield has a great engine and considering Laudrup is not the most hardworking #10, we will usually have numerical advantage there causing Beckenbauer to move through the lines pretty often to help out. That is of course what we need so that Fontaine and Messi can exploit the space and win the game.

In terms of defence, we're well equipped in dealing with Skizzo's attack. Johnstone and Rivaldo are well covered by GOAT full backs, Muller and Laudrup are in between the zone of Moore, Ferrara and Redondo and we will always have a spare man to cover for Muller/Laudrup in the defensive phase.


TEAM PAT:

Skizzo/Pat tactics

Formation:
4-3-3

We line up in a 4-3-3 formation featuring our new recruits, Brazilian express train Roberto Carlos and playmaking demigod Michael Laudrup. Franz Beckenbauer remains our star turn. Playing in a familiar setup and reunited with his greatest partner in crime Gerd Muller, we hope Beckenbauer will prove to be the decisive influence in this match.

Defence:

One of the very greatest goalkeepers ever in Peter Schmeichel is our last line of defence. Ahead of him, Beckenbauer marshals the defence, and the team as a whole, from his favoured RCB/libero position. Beckenbauer was simply the master of providing the ‘plus one’ in every area of the pitch as he strode forward, whilst maintaining a near sixth-sense in terms of fulfilling his defensive responsibilities. Beside him, Marcel Desailly is his complementary CB partner –a supreme athlete and natural defender who has starred in similar set ups for France. Flanking Beckenbauer at right back is one of the great defensive FBs in Victor Andrade. For anyone hoping to get a handle on Andrade Jr, this match vs Hungary is required viewing. He looks a player ahead of his time, both an athletic phenom and a wonderfully composed footballer. Tellingly, that superb Hungary team only edged past Andrade’s Uruguay after Andrade went off injured and the shackles were finally released from the great Zoltan Czibor.

This is a familiar defensive structure for Beckenbauer, who once again finds himself flanked on the right by a defensive full back and partnered in central defence by an athletically-privileged and resolute stopper, with a buccaneering left back completing the defence. In this latter role Roberto Carlos provides a dynamic two-way flank presence, with his redoubtable attacking output complemented by brilliant recovery pace that is sure to be a valuable commodity against Robben/Messi.

Central Midfield:

Spiritual successor of Obdulio Varela and the midfield lynchpin of Penarol’s hugely successful 1960s vintage, Nestor Goncalves anchors the midfield. Partnering him is box to box hurricane Johan Neeskens. It’s the Beckenbauer/Neeskens link up that excites us most about our team, with their shared ability to defend to all-time great levels, before transitioning with dizzying technical ability and dynamism. After missing out on him during the initial drafting, we've finally landed Michael Laudrup, and with him the top-notch creativity and playmaking presence that we wanted to knit together our offence.

Attack:

The greatest big-match goalscorer of all-time spearheads our attack, and Muller will relish reuniting with his general Beckenbauer. He scarcely needed more than a half-chance to decide a match, but serviced by Joya, Laudrup and Johnstone he looks good value to score at least once. Notably, even Bobby Moore was unable to consistently thwart Muller, who scored twice in three games against Moore's England. On the wings, Johnstone’s adroit dribbling and ability to beat multiple defenders is complemented nicely by Joya’s well-rounded wingmanship – there’s elements of that superb Johnstone/Bobby Lennox partnership in terms of Joya’s direct style, scintillating pace and off the ball movement complementing Johnstone’s more intricate style. Johnstone, too, has previous against a Moore-led defence, tormenting the England rearguard and scoring twice in this superb 1966 British Home Championship match.
 

Enigma_87

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To kick it off a brief profile of our new face in the attack.

After much deliberation and of course due to some of the comments in the last game, we went on to improve on the balance and also give the opportunity of a great striker to get his due:

The forgotten story of ... Just Fontaine's 13-goal World Cup
In 1958, an inexperienced French striker set a record for the most goals in a World Cup – and he wasn't even wearing his own boots
Rob Smyth

Just Fontaine was almost unstoppable at the 1958 World Cup. Photograph: Popperfoto /Alamy
Records are made to be broken, especially that deliciously snappable Milli Vanilli vinyl, but with some you might as well save your energy. There is surely no storm perfect enough for Just Fontaine's record of 13 goals in a World Cup, set with France in 1958, to be beaten. In only one of the last nine tournaments has a player scored even half as many, when Ronaldo managed eight in 2002.

Fontaine was a born finisher, smooth and strikingly two-footed. There are similarities with the greatest goalscorer of them all, Gerd Müller: both were squat men with formidable strength, particularly in their tree-trunk thighs, and both had a supernatural awareness and serenity in their patch of land, the 18-yard box.

Like a few of France's greatest players, Fontaine wasn't born in France. He was born of a Spanish mother in Marrakech, then part of French Morocco, and started his club career with USM Casablanca. Fontaine later moved to Nice and then Reims, as a replacement for the Madrid-bound genius Raymond Kopa. It was with Kopa, one of the great No10s, that he would have such an impact in Sweden in 1958. Fontaine went into the tournament at his peak: he was 24 years old, relatively fresh because of an unplanned winter break for a knee operation, and had just hit 34 goals in 26 league games to help Reims to the double.

Yet his part in the tournament was not set in stone. Fontaine had played only five times in as many years for France before the tournament; after scoring a hat-trick on his international debut, in a World Cup qualifier, he was not picked again for three years. (This is nowhere near as daft as it sounds: Fontaine was one of 11 debutants in a dead rubber 8-0 win against Luxembourg, who were such weak opponents that he would probably have needed to score all eight to catch the eye.)

He continued to put goals on the board for Reims, and was eventually recalled, although when France arrived in Sweden for the World Cup, he had only scored one international goal in 53 months. The France national selector Paul Nicolas privately told both Fontaine and René Bliard that they would be the man to play ahead of Kopa and the excellent Roger Piantoni. Fate sorted out a potentially tricky situation: Bliard went home after he was injured in a warm-up match.

Fontaine feasted on a steady stream of gorgeous passes from Kopa – man had not discovered the sweeper in those days – and their partnership, though short-lived at international level, was legendary. Fontaine scored in all six matches, starting with a hat-trick in an unexpected 7-3 demolition of a decent Paraguay side who led 3-2 at one stage. Two more followed in a 3-2 defeat to Yugoslavia before he scored one and made one (for Kopa, a rare example of the fluffer being fluffed) in the 2-1 win over Scotland that put France into the quarter-finals.

There they met a tired Northern Ireland, who were dismissed 4-0. Fontaine scored two, the second a supreme goalscorer's goal. France's performance was so majestic that the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet said: "You have to go back a very long way in history to find any trace of a team that has played as elegantly in Sweden as the French."

In the semi-finals they met the favourites Brazil, who had Pelé, Garrincha, Nílton Santos, Didi, Vavá, Mario Zagallo and the rest. Vavá scored in the second minute, but seven minutes later Fontaine equalised classily after a beautiful buildup. "One has never seen a finer goal," wrote the man from the Guardian. It remained 1-1 until the 36th minute, when Vavá broke the leg of the France captain, Robert Jonquet. There were no substitutes in those days, so Jonquet spent the rest of the game wincing on the wing, and Brazil trounced the 10 men 5-2.

It meant that, to beat Sandor Kocsis's record of 11 goals in a World Cup, set with Hungary in 1954, Fontaine needed to score three in the third-place play-off against West Germany. He hit four in a 6-3 win. The game was competitive only in name – "Fontaine only had to stay on his feet to score goals," wrote Cris Freddi is his definitive history of the World Cup – but even then, Fontaine had scored nine in the first five games, in a tournament where no other player hit more than six. "These were easy pickings," adds Freddi, "but his credentials as a goalscorer stand up to any scrutiny."

His overall total could have been more than 13. He hit the bar twice against Scotland and let Kopa take a penalty against West Germany, even though at that stage he only had 10 goals for the tournament.

Fontaine's scoring feats are even more improbable in view of the fact that he was not even wearing his own boots: he had to borrow a pair from a team-mate (not, as some of you familiar with tales of magic boots might suspect, Jimmy "Dead Shot" Keen, but Stéphane Bruey).

Nor did he receive a Golden Boot at the end of the tournament: in those days there was no formal presentation, and he had to make do with an air rifle from a local newspaper. Forty years later he received a golden boot from Gary Lineker as part of a television programme tracing the history of the award.

Fontaine broke his leg twice in 1960 and, as a consequence, played his last international at the age of 27, finishing with the computer-game record of 30 goals in 21 appearances. His strike rate of 1.43 goals per game is the highest of anybody with 30 international goals. In 10 competitive internationals he scored 21 times.

He went on to manage France, Luchon, Paris Saint-Germain, Toulouse and Morocco, with mixed success. He also inspired an indie band who "don't really do happy!". Now, at the age of 78, he lives in Toulouse, owns two Lacoste shops and predicts results for the French pools. "I spend my days playing belote [a French card game]," he says. "Other than that I watch the African Nations Cup, the Premier League, the Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga ..."

Fontaine has regularly dismissed the idea that goals were a cheaper currency in his day. "No, it wasn't easier to score in 1958," he said, possibly 0.00000000004 seconds after watching a video of David Luiz. "The state of the ball, the length of the trip over and the amateurism of the backroom staff made everything much more complicated than today. I had somebody else's boots as well. And the last great World Cup scorer, Ronaldo, played against teams such as China and Costa Rica. Above all else, referees protect strikers much more than they did in my day. So let me repeat it: 13 goals is an enormous total. Beating my record? I don't think it can ever be done."
 

Enigma_87

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Surprised Rivaldo got the boot @Pat_Mustard . Thought him overlapped by Bobby Carlos (who also had historic partnership) was pretty sweet pair.
 

Deleted member 101472

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@Enigma_87 :lol::lol:

Not only do you clearly admit that your front three wasn’t the best last game, you steal my midfielder and make yours look incredible.

I think that version of Ronaldinho and any RW version of Messi is the best combo for them, especially for the latter against Roberto Carlos as there’s a good body of work against him from Messi’s younger days.

Much prefer this side to your first round 1, can’t really find a fault to be honest.
 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87 :lol::lol:

Not only do you clearly admit that your front three wasn’t the best last game, you steal my midfielder and make yours look incredible.

I think that version of Ronaldinho and any RW version of Messi is the best combo for them, especially for the latter against Roberto Carlos as there’s a good body of work against him from Messi’s younger days.

Much prefer this side to your first round 1, can’t really find a fault to be honest.
To be honest, individually still rate our first round side more and we discussed with TRV many times with which one we would go and created the graphic with Fontaine this morning. :lol:

To me Robben is the best RW after Figo in terms of modern era and our plan was initially him exploiting the space behind Carlos, but at the end we would sell this formation much easier(without possible overlaps) and still would have Messi attacking that vacated space.

Robben doesn't seem to be rated that high around here, so the switch with Fontaine was needed for us to go through this round..
 

Jim Beam

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Love Sammer as a player, but prefer this set-up with Moore and leaving Redondo to do his thing and dictate the match on his own. Looks much more balanced.

That said, Kaiser, Neeskens, Laudrup and Muller is one hell of a spine. With Jinky on the side! :drool:

Will have to think about it.
 

2mufc0

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Ciro Ferrara is out of his depths here.
 

harms

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@fontaine starts!

The thread turned out to be bad because of the rule they found out, NOT beause of your guys counter arguments ..."Oh, just someone to mark the defender!" What? My 7 FT TALL DEFENDER? Remember, footballers are usually like 5'10. It would look like this (Also, GK are tall and have loong arms)

I miss the guy :(




Great match up!
 

Deleted member 101472

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@fontaine was a legendary poster @harms but is still active under his other account, where he hasn't cone close to replicating his old persona
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
In terms of defence, we're well equipped in dealing with Skizzo's attack. Johnstone and Rivaldo are well covered by GOAT full backs, Muller and Laudrup are in between the zone of Moore, Ferrara and Redondo and we will always have a spare man to cover for Muller/Laudrup in the defensive phase.
I'd disagree that you're well-equipped here, not least because the real life evidence suggests otherwise. Muller scored against Moore-led England defences in both WC 70 and Euro 72 to eliminate England from those tournaments, with Beckenbauer scoring in the 1970 match too.

Johnstone has turned in a scintillating display against Moore's England too:


And Laudrup didn't seem to have any particular problems unlocking a Redondo-anchored midfield:


 

Enigma_87

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Love Sammer as a player, but prefer this set-up with Moore and leaving Redondo to do his thing and dictate the match on his own. Looks much more balanced.

That said, Kaiser, Neeskens, Laudrup and Muller is one hell of a spine. With Jinky on the side! :drool:

Will have to think about it.
Aye, we had to address that and 4-3-3 suits our team much more, especially Ronaldinho and Messi, but we couldn't go with it last game as Puyol would've been seen as a weakness (not to mention Sammer in a back 4).

With Moore the balance is there and we could finally switch to 4-3-3.

Ciro Ferrara is out of his depths here.
Ferrara has been instrumental in 7 Seria A titles in the best and golden generation of all time in that league.

For example the season ratings in the year Napoli won it:



Peak Ferrara was a fantastic defender and his aggressive nature dovetails nicely with Moore.

@fontaine starts!



I miss the guy :(




Great match up!
classic :lol:
 

The Red Viper

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Ciro Ferrara is out of his depths here.
Thats just very harsh, man.

You can say he isn't as good as the CBs at display here but then we would be comparing him with Beckenbauer, Moore and Desailly. ATG defenders.

Individually he was an outstanding defender that marshaled and led the Juventus backline in the 1990s.

The 1990s Serie-A would rank as the toughest and best league competition in terms of sheer quality in the history of the game and Juventus were the most successful Italian side of the 1990s. So, how can he be considered out of depth here when he led a great club like Juventus in one of their most successful phases of their history in a league where it was absolutely loaded from top to bottom and filled with so many all-time greats?

If anything, Ciro is underrated because of his unfortunate timings with injuries as he got injured during major International competitions which would have boosted his legacy further.
 

Physiocrat

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@Enigma_87 Fointaine's WC was incredible but how good was his club career and how good was the French league then? I know Kopa played there but he proved himself in the EC and La Liga
 

Don Alfredo

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He is not up to the task against the greatest big game goalscorer ever. Moore got pummeled by Muller and Beckenbauer before and I see no presence to stop the Kaizer from dominating this match. Sammer could have been the guy to show some resistance, but he is on the bench sadly. Messi against Carlos is a strong argument, but Muller against an underwhelming CB and Beckenbauer against literally no one is a much stronger argument in my opinion.
 

Enigma_87

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I'd disagree that you're well-equipped here, not least because the real life evidence suggests otherwise. Muller scored against Moore-led England defences in both WC 70 and Euro 72 to eliminate England from those tournaments, with Beckenbauer scoring in the 1970 match too.

Johnstone has turned in a scintillating display against Moore's England too:


And Laudrup didn't seem to have any particular problems unlocking a Redondo-anchored midfield:


Thing is Redondo in those clips played at Tenerife long before his Real Madrid peak days and that defence/midfield is nothing compared to what we have on show here.

Same with Moore, who is now flanked with 2 GOAT full backs and a great Italian defender next to him in Ferrara, shielded by Redondo.

Also Moore shut Germany down in 72'

https://www.11v11.com/matches/west-germany-v-england-13-may-1972-231855/

so I wouldn't call his record that bad against Muller(his record is pretty good against pretty much every defender) and the sample size isn't really that big on both match-ups to draw definite conclusions. :)
 

The Red Viper

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@Enigma_87 :lol::lol:

Not only do you clearly admit that your front three wasn’t the best last game, you steal my midfielder and make yours look incredible.

I think that version of Ronaldinho and any RW version of Messi is the best combo for them, especially for the latter against Roberto Carlos as there’s a good body of work against him from Messi’s younger days.

Much prefer this side to your first round 1, can’t really find a fault to be honest.
Haha.

TBH, we still feel Ronaldinho - Messi - Robben is a fantastic attacking trio but there were lot of mixed and extreme reactions to it. And like Enigma said, we planned on continuing with it for this game as well and had the formation picture ready as well. But after further discussions we decided that we're better off using Fontaine instead of Robben because there were lot of question marks about the balance last time and we didn't want the discussion to be overshadowed and be just about how Messi as a False-9 won't work with Ronaldinho and Robben and how Robben and Messi wouldn't gel at all and get in each others' way. Also for this specific game, having Messi vs Carlos means we exploit that flank completely by having our best player vs their weakest and honestly not that good a defender.
 

Deleted member 101472

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@Enigma_87 im pretty sure that rating for Ferrara is talking about his performances being a big surprise for both Napoli and italy
 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87 Fointaine's WC was incredible but how good was his club career and how good was the French league then? I know Kopa played there but he proved himself in the EC and La Liga
Think Reims European feats are pretty good indication that they were one of the strongest sides at the time.

Also Fontaine's goal count didn't really fluctuate in Europe and on club level as he was the top goalscorer in EC in 59' for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958–59_European_Cup

It's hard to assess the league levels at the time,but Fontaine's record hasn't really took a hit at any level. Sure his accolades would be much better if he took the trip to Spain, but his career was cut short due to two leg breaks hence he didn't really have the chance to continue in different league or really to have longer career.
 

Deleted member 101472

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He is not up to the task against the greatest big game goalscorer ever. Moore got pummeled by Muller and Beckenbauer before and I see no presence to stop the Kaizer from dominating this match. Sammer could have been the guy to show some resistance, but he is on the bench sadly. Messi against Carlos is a strong argument, but Muller against an underwhelming CB and Beckenbauer against literally no one is a much stronger argument in my opinion.
an underwhelming CB? Ferrara is a genuine top 50 centre back of all time.

 

Enigma_87

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@Enigma_87 im pretty sure that rating for Ferrara is talking about his performances being a big surprise for both Napoli and Italy
Yeah, he bursted onto the scene at young age and still was instrumental in the early 00's. The thing is Napoli relied on their rock solid defence in their 2 titles as much as Maradona's talent and Ferrara was a pillar in both of those great wins.

Think Boniek called him the toughest defender he faced during his time at Juve and generally our lads were raving about him in the 90's when we met Juve in CL.
 

Don Alfredo

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an underwhelming CB? Ferrara is a genuine top 50 centre back of all time.

Top50 CB may be true, but that is nowhere near good enough to stop the greatest 9 ever in terms of goalscoring. He did it against pretty much every CB he ever faced and Figueroa may have been the only notable name to have managed to keep him shut down. There is a huge gap in terms of quality between Ferrara and Figueroa, he is not even close the best CBs ever.
 

The Red Viper

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I'd disagree that you're well-equipped here, not least because the real life evidence suggests otherwise. Muller scored against Moore-led England defences in both WC 70 and Euro 72 to eliminate England from those tournaments, with Beckenbauer scoring in the 1970 match too.

Johnstone has turned in a scintillating display against Moore's England too:


And Laudrup didn't seem to have any particular problems unlocking a Redondo-anchored midfield:


Love Laudrup but thats from when Redondo was at Tenerife.

Compare the defenders he had behind him to what he has now. And also that Barca attack is better than your current attack as well tbh.

As for Muller vs Moore, Muller scored vs Moore's England in 1970 but tbh he didn't have a good game otherwise.

The England defense marked him really tightly and out of the game really well. But Brian Labone had a lapse in discipline and lost him when Grabowski crossed from the left wing. Also missing Gordon Banks due to injury and having Peter Bonetti in goal for that game made matters worse for England as Bonetti was kinda at fault for two goals including Muller's where he looked completely out of clue and position.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
He is not up to the task against the greatest big game goalscorer ever. Moore got pummeled by Muller and Beckenbauer before and I see no presence to stop the Kaizer from dominating this match. Sammer could have been the guy to show some resistance, but he is on the bench sadly. Messi against Carlos is a strong argument, but Muller against an underwhelming CB and Beckenbauer against literally no one is a much stronger argument in my opinion.
Amen :)
 

Physiocrat

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Think Reims European feats are pretty good indication that they were one of the strongest sides at the time.

Also Fontaine's goal count didn't really fluctuate in Europe and on club level as he was the top goalscorer in EC in 59' for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1958–59_European_Cup

It's hard to assess the league levels at the time,but Fontaine's record hasn't really took a hit at any level. Sure his accolades would be much better if he took the trip to Spain, but his career was cut short due to two leg breaks hence he didn't really have the chance to continue in different league or really to have longer career.
That's fair. It's unfortunate Reim didn't appear more often in the EC then. From a quick look it was only once when Fontaine played.
 

The Red Viper

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Top50 CB may be true, but that is nowhere near good enough to stop the greatest 9 ever in terms of goalscoring. He did it against pretty much every CB he ever faced and Figueroa may have been the only notable name to have managed to keep him shut down. There is a huge gap in terms of quality between Ferrara and Figueroa, he is not even close the best CBs ever.
Its not just Ferrara though. You have Bobby Moore alongside him as well covering and marking Muller also. I mean we aren't saying we completely shut down Muller but in terms of slowing him down, Moore and Ferrara are good enough. Also, we will be restricting the service to him from the flanks. We have two outstanding full-backs in Facchetti and Carlos Alberto who can ensure there is minimal service from the flanks. Laudrup centrally will be an issue but with Vieira/Breitner helping Redondo out we can do a good job there.
 

harms

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He did it against pretty much every CB he ever faced and Figueroa may have been the only notable name to have managed to keep him shut down. There is a huge gap in terms of quality between Ferrara and Figueroa, he is not even close the best CBs ever.
To be fair, he should be compared to Quintano rather than to Figueroa, if we're talking about that game (Moore's quite clearly playing that role). Not saying that they'll stop him though.
 

The Red Viper

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Look at this clip from the 1970 World Cup match between West Germany & England.


The commentator clearly mentions about how Moore has been constantly winning battles vs Muller, but they end up losing with Muller scoring because Brian Labone had a lapse in concentration and lost him. Peter Bonnetti didn't cover himself in glory either. Banks would have been more physical dealing with that cross as well.
 

The Red Viper

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So, I just don't understand why we are highlighting its Ferrara up against Muller when we have a legit all-time great CB alongside him who is perfect to deal with Muller's movement and positioning with his fantastic ability to read the game and intercept the passes to Muller.
 

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So basically it’s been established that even though Muller had a poor game and was being shut out, he still managed to get on the scoresheet and effect the outcome of a huge match.

Also, it’s been stated that Moore and Ferrara will be doubling up on Muller, as well as Redondo and one of Breitner/Vieira helping out on Laudrup.

Which leaves Neeskens and/or Beckenbauer to take matters into their own hands and help dictate play and do what they do.

@Pat_Mustard already showed how the direct matchups have played out prior, and that’s without taking into account the free reign Beckenbauer would have to take over proceedings here.
 

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Its not just Ferrara though. You have Bobby Moore alongside him as well covering and marking Muller also. I mean we aren't saying we completely shut down Muller but in terms of slowing him down, Moore and Ferrara are good enough. Also, we will be restricting the service to him from the flanks. We have two outstanding full-backs in Facchetti and Carlos Alberto who can ensure there is minimal service from the flanks. Laudrup centrally will be an issue but with Vieira/Breitner helping Redondo out we can do a good job there.
To be fair, he should be compared to Quintano rather than to Figueroa, if we're talking about that game (Moore's quite clearly playing that role). Not saying that they'll stop him though.
Tbh one issue is Ferrara being out of his depth vs Muller and the other is Beckenbauer having no resistance. Pat/Skizzo already have the better midfield and Beckenbauer makes that even more one-sided. Muller vs Ferrara/Moore is a difficult matchup for TRV/Enigma and if Beckenbauer joins the attack, that makes it a huge mismatch.
 

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Thats just very harsh, man.

You can say he isn't as good as the CBs at display here but then we would be comparing him with Beckenbauer, Moore and Desailly. ATG defenders.

Individually he was an outstanding defender that marshaled and led the Juventus backline in the 1990s.

The 1990s Serie-A would rank as the toughest and best league competition in terms of sheer quality in the history of the game and Juventus were the most successful Italian side of the 1990s. So, how can he be considered out of depth here when he led a great club like Juventus in one of their most successful phases of their history in a league where it was absolutely loaded from top to bottom and filled with so many all-time greats?

If anything, Ciro is underrated because of his unfortunate timings with injuries as he got injured during major International competitions which would have boosted his legacy further.
Agree he's a good defender but he's a tier or 2 below what you need to stop an ATG like Muller, unless you are saying Moore is on man marking duties which in that case would be a complete waste of his abilities.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Love Laudrup but thats from when Redondo was at Tenerife.

Compare the defenders he had behind him to what he has now. And also that Barca attack is better than your current attack as well tbh.

As for Muller vs Moore, Muller scored vs Moore's England in 1970 but tbh he didn't have a good game otherwise.

The England defense marked him really tightly and out of the game really well. But Brian Labone had a lapse in discipline and lost him when Grabowski crossed from the left wing. Also missing Gordon Banks due to injury and having Peter Bonetti in goal for that game made matters worse for England as Bonetti was kinda at fault for two goals including Muller's where he looked completely out of clue and position.
Muller was hardly anonymous prior to his goal. The much-maligned Bonetti produced a brilliant save to stop him from scoring earlier, he teed up Beckenbauer for a near-miss, and he had about four England defenders scuttling around frantically trying to watch him in the lead up to Seeler's goal.
 

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Agree he's a good defender but he's a tier or 2 below what you need to stop an ATG like Muller, unless you are saying Moore is on man marking duties which in that case would be a complete waste of his abilities.
Sounds to me like that’s exactly what the plan was

not just Ferrara though. You have Bobby Moore alongside him as well covering and marking Muller also.
 

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Agree he's a good defender but he's a tier or 2 below what you need to stop an ATG like Muller, unless you are saying Moore is on man marking duties which in that case would be a complete waste of his abilities.
Moore isn't on man-marking duties. And you can't man-mark a player like Muller anyway. Its impossible to contain him throughout the game based on just one on one man-marking. It has to be combination of both. With Ferrara, we have someone who will have a specific task of marking Muller but in case Muller gets away from him and he will some times, there is also Moore to cover and help him out.