Sheep Draft Final: Enigma/TRV vs 2mufc0

Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?


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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Team Enigma/TRV:

Formation:- 4-2-3-1. Direct & Counter-Attacking. Regain possession quickly and look for openings in the opposition defensive line.
Defensive line:- Normal.
Style:- Solid defensive line marshaled by Scirea, counter attack at every opportunity. Beckenbauer and Neeskens to dominate the midfield, Best and Amancio to provide width down the flanks and stretch the game so that it would allow space through the middle for the likes of Puskas and Zidane to exploit.

GK:- Michel Preud'homme - One of the best and complete goalkeepers in the 80's and early 90's. Phenomenal reflexes and he was great organizer at the back and always dependable in collecting crosses and in the air.

Tucked-in RB:- Claudio Gentile - The Italian defender wore his reputation as a tough, uncompromising defender, or as the more clickbait YouTube video titles would have you believe, ‘The Hardest Man in Soccer’, as a badge of honour. One of the best, if not the best man-markers in the history of the game. Very few could boast of marking Diego Maradona and Zico out of the game like Gentile did. It is impossible not to admire the tenacity and discipline with which he played the game, as well as his innate ability to consistently play on the very precipice of what was acceptable over 90 minutes. The contrasting defensive pairing with Scirea in terms of style, which expertly combined silk and steel together with the experienced Zoff as the last line of defence, saw Juventus claim the 1974/75 title. Gentile played 29 of 30 league games and was integral to a Bianconeri side which only conceded three goals at home in the league all season.

Libero:- Gaetano Scirea -
One of the greatest defenders to have graced the game of football. Marshaled the defense two of the most iconic sides of all time in 1980s Italy NT & 1980s Juventus. A leader amongst men, Scirea was a master at organizing the defense the back yet at the same time, initiate plenty of swift attacks from the back and often step up in the midfield when needed in a true libero role at his peak.

LCB:- Karlheinz Förster - One of the most brilliant, yet often overlooked defenders in German football's rich history is Karlheinz Förster. Although his time came after the glory years of the 1970s, he was perhaps Germany's most important defender in the early 1980s. An outstanding marker who could negate any striker out of the game.

LB:- Nílton Santos - One of the greatest left backs in the history of the game. Blessed with immaculate technique, engine and passing, Nílton Santos was the true pioneer of the attacking full-backs, which has become such a common theme in modern era. But at the same time, he was a brilliant defender as well.

CM:- Franz Beckenbauer - A genius footballer with a divine sense of timing, god-gifted vision, telepathic positioning, graceful technique, terrific commitment and legendary leadership. Possibly, the most complete footballer of all time, the football world has rarely seen such a graceful and intelligent defensive player ever, and possibly there will never be anyone like the genius Beckenbauer, "The Munich Wall".

CM:- Johan Neeskens - (stolen a bit from Fortitude's description in one of the threads) - The best pure Box-Box midfielder, the game has seen. If you want someone to do a number of jobs in that role, be the link between the defense and the attack, circulate the ball, win back the possession and being an understated force that lets 'bigger' names shine and takes no glory for himself, unless you need a penalty converted. Fast, mobile, two-footed, technically adept, dogged, tireless, clean in the tackle, intelligent, flexible, multi-functional, consistent, dependable. The adjectives keep coming because Neeskens was a stellar player well worth a place in a world all-time XI in his own right.

LW:- George Best - "Maradona Good, Pelé Better, George Best." "If I'd been ugly," said George Best, "you'd never have heard of Pele." Best wasn't tall, he wasn't large - yet there seemed nothing he couldn't do on a football field. His ball control was exquisite. In a pub, he could flip up a coin and catch it in his chest pocket. By rights, he should have been negligible in the air, yet he could out-jump a 6ft defender to score goals. One of the best wingers of all time, the 1968 Ballon D'or winner was absolutely mesmerising to watch. A proper match winner, who when in mood could annihilate any defender in the world. Goals, close control, pace, creativity, swagger and trickery. He had everything you would want from an attacking player. And oh, he had the ladies as well.

AMC:- Zinedine Zidane -
A Rolls-Royce of a midfielder, Zinedine Zidane is one of the greatest players to have stepped foot on a football pitch. A true big-game player who thrived when the stakes were higher. Scorer of important goals, Zidane was blessed with immaculate technique, fantastic vision and range of passing. There was no better sight in football than watching Zidane orchestrate attacks and stamp his authority on the game either by dictating the tempo of the game and linking up with the attack or by scoring ridiculous goals.

RW:- Amancio Amaro - Spain's best ever Right Winger, Amancio Amaro played alongside Francisco Gento for nine years at Real Madrid and seven years for Spain. Despite being a winger, Amaro won the Pichichi Trophy as Spanish footballs top scorer twice, and scored a total of 173 goals in 344 games for Real Madrid and 11 goals from 42 caps for Spain. Amancio was the best player for Spain when they won the Euros in 1964 and his exploits with Spain and Real Madrid helped him finish 3rd in Ballon d'Or voting that year.

CF:- Ferenc Puskás - The Galloping Major, is one of the greatest footballers to have graced the game. He was the captain of the legendary Mighty Magyars in the fifties and led them to winning a gold medal in the 1952 Olympics and a silver medal in 1954 World Cup. Even though he was out injured for few games, he still ended the 1954 World Cup with the Golden Ball as well as Bronze Boot. Till date, he remains the only footballer to have scored more than one hat-trick in the European Cup/UEFA Champions League Final, a feat he had achieved with Real Madrid when he was past his peak. Not only was he a prolific goalscorer but also a brilliant playmaker as well. This quote by Jeno Buzanszky, The Mighty Magyars' right back, gives a brief idea about the genius of Ferenc Puskás:- "If a good player has the ball, he should have the vision to spot three options. Puskás always saw at least five."

Defence:- Marshaled by Gaetano Scirea at his peak, alongside his partner in crime in Claudio Gentile we have a proven fit, especially when it comes to pairing him with one of the best stoppers ever in Förster. Nilton Santos is left-back and one of the best in history to cope with Garrincha.

Midfield:- Beckenbauer and Neeskens form a double-pivot in the midfield, with Scirea aiding the midfield in his natural libero role. Neeskens and Beckenbauer form a spectacular midfield unit. Both of them are the finest all action midfielders on the pitch and their energy, tireless running, outstanding passing ability and vision bode well to counter the attacking threat and also provide going forward. They bring the defensive solidity in shielding the back four but also an excellent base for Zidane and the rest of the attacking unit to shine.

Attack:- We possess the best attack in the draft. Two spectacular wingers in Amancio and Best to provide the chances and creativity for Puskas being the powerful striker and that trio being fed by Zidane in his zone. Our attack consists of outstanding goalscorers who could also score goals in variety of ways. Puskás on was an all-around forward who not only scored goals for fun but also created a shit load of chances for others as well. George Best will give Gerets a twisted blood and is a genuine route to goal for us, whilst Amancio is one of the best right wingers in history and would give Evra a torrid time with his silkiness and pace.

vs 2mufc0:- We face a tough team in the final but we feel we have the better balance and quality between the lines.

Best and Amancio vs Evra and Gerets:- We have advantage in those two individual battles. Best is the greatest winger in the history of the game and Gerets will find it hard to contain him. On the other side Amancio will give Evra a torrid time. Evra was a great servant for Manchester United but often defensively suspect, especially against fast and skillful wingers like Amancio, who with his pace and movement can fully exploit that flank. And in Puskas and Zidane, we have two excellent playmakers/passers who can provide the service to the likes of Best and Amancio to attack Gerets and Evra respectively in one-on-one situations and cause chaos in 2mufc0's backline.

Beckenbauer & Neeskens central midfield:- We will most likely face Didi and Voronin on the other side and we will definitely have the upper hand in this. Didi and Voronin are very good midfielders but Neeskens and Der Kaiser are simply superior, and a mouthwatering combo. Didi wasn't known for his defensive work. There is this famous quote by Di Stefano about how Didi didn't like to get his shorts dirty. With Voronin already having his hands full with Zidane, Beckenbauer and Neeskens are our wild-cards. Due to lack of defensive resistance from 2mufc0's midfield, we would exploit that fully with Beckenbauer and Neeskens taking turns to make attacking runs into the box. Both were masters at making driving runs from the midfield/deep. They were great dribblers who could evade the press and could get out of tight spaces due to their immaculate close control, and then pop up either by getting at the end of a cross or by shooting it from distance as both had a mean and powerful shot in them as their goalscoring record proves.

Our defence vs opposition attack:- Gentile is a fine choice to mind Stoichkov as he's the type who would give him little space to work with being a tucked in RB with mainly defensive functions. On the other side we have Nilton, one of the greatest LB's in history to deal with Garrincha, while Forster and Scirea taking care of the upcoming central danger.

Dealing with the Didi-Garrincha-Pele Trifecta:- 2mufc0 has assembled the 1958 World Cup winning trifecta. Three great players but we feel we have the defensive set-up that can restrict the influence of those three players.

In Neeskens we have the perfect player who can negate Didi's influence in and around the final third. Neeskens with his pace, physicality and engine can harry Didi throughout the game and ensure Didi doesn't get enough time and space on the ball to control the game.

Nilton was an outstanding defender and played with Garrincha at Botafogo for almost a decade. He would have played vs Garrincha in training enough to know about Garrincha's skills and traits. Now, we aren't saying Nilton will be able to completely mark Garrincha out of the game but he certainly can negate his influence to a good extent. Nilton was quick, read the game extremely well, had good football IQ and was an excellent tackler. The ideal LB to negate the impact of Garrincha.

That leaves us with Pele. We won't be man-marking Pele. Rather have players in those zones who would keep track of Pele whenever he is around their zones. Beckenbauer's primary role would be to cut the service to Pele and have him drop deep to get hold of the ball. That way we keep him farther away from out goal. Then if Pele does manage to get hold of the ball in final third, Beckenbauer will make it really tough for him by not allowing him much time and space on the ball. If Pele does manage to get past Beckenbauer, which won't be easy at all, we will have Scirea waiting for him. Its one thing outfoxing and beating one of the greatest defensive players ever but to outfox two of the greatest defensive minds ever? Even for someone like Pele, it would be very tough.

Puskas as a complete CF:- Puskas is one of the greatest goalscorers in history and his movement and ability to find the net from different angles and zones would make him hard to mark even for Figueroa and Nesta combo. Because all Puskas would need is half-a-chance and he will convert that. Also, he was a brilliant passer as well. He would get the other attacking players like Best, Zidane and Amancio involved in the game with his link-up play.



VERSUS

Team 2mufc0:



The formation graphic is pretty self explanatory, all of the players are playing in positions they are comfortable in and are of high quality. I believe my team has a blend of power, speed and with best trio in football history at the heart of the team Didi-Pele-Garrincha.

I have completed my attack by bringing the King - Pele, who is partnered with his old great teammates - the GOAT RW Garrincha who i fancy to take advantage of the opposition LB and another old mate Didi, all shared a legendary chemistry . Hristo provides the attacking threat from the left.

Seedorf adds a bit more energy and tenacity into the midfield, his all-round skillful and energetic game will provide something different in the midfield. Also partnered with Voronin it should give a good base for Didi to run the show.

The front 3 will be serviced by Didi in the final third and also from deeper potions with Seedorf and Voronin. This makes the team deadly not only in general play but also on the counter, esp with the pace of the front 3 and the tireless overlapping fullbacks.

Beckenbauer, who famously said: “I’m the European Figueroa.

I have bolstered my back-line by bringing in Don Elias, partnered with Nesta and screened by Voronin, i believe most attackers would find this core difficult to break down. The full back spots are supported by 2 energetic and tireless workers, able to support the wingers and also defend.

Like with most of the teams i draft, the philosophy is to play football and be adaptable depending on the match situation.
 

Indnyc

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I thought Enigma would pick Brehme given the Santos - Garrincha discussions from the last draft
 

Enigma_87

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Would have preferred rijkaard there and surely you want best against evra?
Our frontline is pretty interchangeable. Best and Amancio will be proving on both flanks where is little resistance.

Both of them were comfortable on either flank and two footed as it comes. We have definite advantage there and both can be seen swapping flanks throughout the games.

Pretty sure most are familiar with Best but some examples of what Amancio was about:

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I thought Enigma would pick Brehme given the Santos - Garrincha discussions from the last draft
Only reason I haven't voted for them yet. While Amaro probably doesn't belong in a final, Didi/Seedorf/Voronin falls absolutely pale in front of Kaiser/Neeskens/Zidane.
 

Enigma_87

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I thought Enigma would pick Brehme given the Santos - Garrincha discussions from the last draft
Apart from Maldini you need a GOAT left back to defend against Garrincha. To me Nilton is one and we have highlighted the qualities he has in order to keep up with him. Brehme to me is not as good defensively as Nilton and will provide less resistance.

On a side note with two genuine wingers on the pitch we don’t rely that much on Nilton go provide width hence he can concentrate more on Garrincha.

He has plenty of cover here as well and much better midfield unit with two genuine GOAT midfielders.
 

Enigma_87

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Only reason I haven't voted for them yet. While Amaro probably doesn't belong in a final, Didi/Seedorf/Voronin falls absolutely pale in front of Kaiser/Neeskens/Zidane.
Amaro is not a household name in drafts but in terms of balance is a great fit for our attack. Also Evra has been suspect defensively against small and skillful wingers who gave him a torrid time (Lennon). Amaro is still one of the best right wingers in the game and 1 in 3 games goalscorer and EURO 64 winner with pretty pivotal role for both club and country.

As you mentioned our midfield is as good as it gets. Don’t think you can really upgrade that and who is better to put against Pele in that zone to Neeskens and Beckenbauer combo to protect one of the best defenders in history in Scirea himself :)
 

2mufc0

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Re Evra, it would always be tough against Best but since he's playing the other side it works in my favour. I also think we tend to under rate our players like Evra and Vidic. Evra was part of one of the greatest defences in PL history and was part of that amazing clean sheet record.

As for Nilton, there is clear historical documentation of Garrincha rinsing him so I do see it as a way towards goal for me.

Something also seems off about that CM pairing great on paper but Neeskens peak was as an advanced midfielder and as for Beckenbauer he's the player the team should be built around not shoehorned into a midfield 3. I'm not sure there's even any historical precedence of him playing in a midfield 2? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then you have Zidane, always had water carriers behind him at his best. Neeskens and Beckenbauer won't be taking the back seat for him. Just seems the opposition has gone down the 'galactico' route with little thought to chemistry.
 

Enigma_87

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Re Evra, it would always be tough against Best but since he's playing the other side it works in my favour. I also think we tend to under rate our players like Evra and Vidic. Evra was part of one of the greatest defences in PL history and was part of that amazing clean sheet record.

As for Nilton, there is clear historical documentation of Garrincha rinsing him so I do see it as a way towards goal for me.

Something also seems off about that CM pairing great on paper but Neeskens peak was as an advanced midfielder and as for Beckenbauer he's the player the team should be built around not shoehorned into a midfield 3. I'm not sure there's even any historical precedence of him playing in a midfield 2? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then you have Zidane, always had water carriers behind him at his best. Neeskens and Beckenbauer won't be taking the back seat for him. Just seems the opposition has gone down the 'galactico' route with little thought to chemistry.
Couple of notes.

Evra was good for us but in historical sense especially against top wingers he falls short.

Both Best and Amancio will attack the space he will leave and if you watch Amaro’s highlights you can see that out attack is pretty interchangeable and unpredictable. Despite Best starting off the right both will target your flanks and looks for openings.

I advise you to see Amancio highlights and see how fast and skilled he was. Despite not the biggest name he is still one of the best wingers and will cause all sorts of trouble to your full backs.

Also on peak part - Pele was never a #9 at his peak. We had this discussion with @harms before and he himself considered himself more of a third man and midfielder rather than a man to lead the line. Always loved to come from behind.

As for Garrincha and Nilton we have to consider them at their peak/position they are playing. Nilton is the type that would be one of the best fits for him, but he also has plenty of cover here.

Neeskens is epitome of total footballer. Portraying him at #10 is far from the truth.
 

Don Alfredo

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I consider this a midfield 3 with Haller as AM, but then it comes close to Enigma's structure here with Beckenbauer besides an 8/10 hybrid in Overath and behind an AM in Haller.

Will comment on the match later, have to get some food first:)
 

The Red Viper

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Good Luck, @2mufc0 .

I thought Enigma would pick Brehme given the Santos - Garrincha discussions from the last draft
What was the Santos - Garrincha discussion? Can't remember.

The major discussion was about how having Nilton being the sole outlet down the left flank would be an overburden for him. Thats why we got Best in on the left wing, to be that attacking outlet from the left flank and let Nilton handle Garrincha.

Only reason I haven't voted for them yet. While Amaro probably doesn't belong in a final, Didi/Seedorf/Voronin falls absolutely pale in front of Kaiser/Neeskens/Zidane.
Thats not fair on Amancio, bro.

Amancio was a fantastic winger. Underrated in general because he came after that Madrid team which won so many trophies that the rest felt pale in comparison. But Amancio and Pirri were two players who would have started for any Madrid XI in any era. Amancio was also the best player in the 1964 Euros for Spain.

Enigma posted the video about Amancio vs Ajax and United.

But Amancio also came up huge in big games as well. The winner in Extra Time in Euros Semi Final vs Hungary. A goal in the Final vs Partizan. Also played and fared well vs Facchetti's Inter Milan.

And when you consider he is up again Evra, who while was a good servant for United, was never really that good defensively, I think Amancio can really exploit and create all sorts of trouble to Evra. Amancio was called "The Wizard" because of his ability to drift past players for fun and in Evra he isn't exactly up against an all-time great LB.

So when you consider the match-up, I think Amancio is not only more than good enough but would have a major advantage down that flank as well.
 

Theon

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Only reason I haven't voted for them yet. While Amaro probably doesn't belong in a final, Didi/Seedorf/Voronin falls absolutely pale in front of Kaiser/Neeskens/Zidane.
I think you would have to include Pele for 2mufc there - he’s obviously the best player on the park and he’ll contribute a lot in possession dropping deep and running with the ball.

I think the set up for Pele looks brilliant, particularly given the reunion with Garrincha.
 

2mufc0

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WAS PELE THE MOST COMPLETE ATTACKER OF ALL TIME?



How does one determine what makes a player complete? or in this instance an attacker complete?

In the overall sense, one would easily make reference to someone like Di Stefano who was able to participate in the defensive phase of the game in addition to the build up (midfield) phase and the attacking phase but when limiting it to the question of the most dangerous and complete operator in the final third.. it becomes tougher - which players could claim to have mastered the following arts or possess the following attributes:

  • Long-range shooting (curl, power)
  • Long-range passing (spreading play, crossing)
  • Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)
  • Heading
  • Set-Pieces
  • Controlling the build up (control of tempo)
  • Killer passes in the final third
  • Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)
  • Dribbling (body feints, tricks)
  • First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)
  • Movement off the ball/Timing of runs
  • Pace, Power and Agility
  • Ambidextrous

Shortlist for most complete attacker:

  1. Messi
  2. C. Ronaldo
  3. R9
  4. Cruyff
  5. Pele
  6. Van Basten
  7. Di Stefano
  8. Zico
  9. Maradona
  10. Puskas
  11. Eusebio
So a rough shortlist of some very complete forwards (included Zico, because on closer inspection - seems to be an incredibly complete player who was not your typical 10 but a super productive forward in equal measure). Now grading these players 1-10 at each attribute is a very subjective exercise, so to avoid that.. I will just discuss if certain players were able/unable to demonstrate mastery of a particular ability and compare how many areas of attack this list of footballers could master.

Long-range shooting

Now, alot of players on that list have obviously scored a range of long-distance goals but I would argue R9, Cruyff, Van Basten can instantly be ruled out as evidence of their long-range prowess isn't as pronounced as the others. Some like Zico who clearly had great set piece ability and could score from range tended to choose not to and majority of his goals result from dribbles into box/being a fox in the box.. so for me from open play Eusebio, Messi stand out.. with the former having a cannon of shot off either foot and Cristiano is also a great threat from range (though his efficiency is questionable). Pele for me is right up there, and I'd have him just behind Messi and alongside Eusebio. Lets not forget his attempt from the halfway line too.



Long-range passing (spreading play,crossing)

An area for me where Pele falls short. His style of play just didn't incorporate long range passing/crossing, as he preferred shorter passes for quick-fired combination play. In this category, Messi, Maradona, Zico reign supreme though crossing wise - for the outside of the foot, I'd probably give it to Cruyff and CR7 is underrated in this respect too.

Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)

Whilst you'd expect all of these footballers to be A* at this, for me R9, CR7 and Eusebio fall slightly short here. Sort of footballers who were prone to losing the ball under pressure due to the high octane nature of their game and the sheer directness of their play. The rest are as gold standard as it gets, supremely intelligent footballers under pressure.

Heading

Cristiano, Van Basten are real stand outs from this list and everyone else falls short (though Messi makes a decent fist of it to be fair) but Pele absolutely matches them in this regard and is recognised as one of the GOAT headers in the game, some brazillians would argue the greatest leap ever.





Set-Pieces

Now Zico stands out as probably the best of all time, but in terms of ruling players out.. R9, Van basten can certainly be as they're not renowned for free-kick brilliance. Pele is criminally underrated for his set-piece prowess. He is 5th on all time list of set-pieces scored (70+ free-kicks scored during his career) Whilst he didn't possess the sublime grace of a Zico in this regard, he was a threat from a variety of ranges due to his sheer power and accuracy.. mastering the lace knuckleball technique 50 years ago..but also capable of the more deft 'falling-leaf' technique from closer range too.


Controlling the build up (control of tempo)

Whilst I wouldn't place Pele at the top of the list in this regard alongside the likes of Maradona/Di Stefano/Cruyff, he definitely had the ability to control a tempo of a game and was a ball-magnet. He had a playmakers mindset in the final third, in contrast to CR7, R9 and knew when to accelerate or slow a game down in the final third which kept opponents guessing as to when he'd go for the kill.


Killer passes in the final third

Pele was an absolute master in this regard.. Jairzinho goal in 1970 as well as Carlos Alberto goal in the final. Two iconic assists in the same tournament which have stood the test of time and they were just the tip of the iceberg. Once again the same culprits probably come up short, CR7 for example is very average IMO when it comes to killer passes. Whilst this is a highly contested category, for me Pele has the perfect blend of insane imagination, flair technique and efficiency of execution to reign supreme in this category.


Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)



Now that is just one aspect of finishing, but it is fair to say with a reputed 1000 goals to his name.. Pele has to go down as one of if not the most versatile finisher of all time. I'd have him alongside Zico, Van Basten and Messi as my favourite finishers in that list of players.. any situation in the box, they have all the tricks in the locker to make the ball land in the back of the net.. But the first two and Pele - could also do it with either foot effortlessly.

Dribbling (body feints, tricks)

In football you tend to get guys who either excel at the classical lace dribbling, with slaloming runs and use of body swerves to weave through opponents or you get guys who are the 5* skill masters and like to embarrass and confuse opponents with their street skills. Very rarely do you find a guy who possesses a blend of both.. Dinho in his prime perhaps, Maradona to an extent but for me Pele in his prime combined all the best attributes you want as a dribbler.. both simple, yet superfluous and entertaining in equal measure. He could body swerve with the best, yet he was a pioneer in bringing street skills.. that Brazilian magic to the big stage.


First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)

Now this is where guys like Cruyff, Pele, Eusebio and Di Stefano distinguish themselves from Messi, Maradona and Zico. They could hold the ball up as good as your best strikers, and play with a man up behind them as well as win tough physical encounters by outmuscling opponents not just out-thinking them. For example, the way Messi regularly got snuffed out by sides like Chelsea.. I can't see that happening to Pele, who eventually proved he could dominate a physical defensive side for example Italy in 1970. His first touch was simply sublime and allied to his athleticism made him virtually unstoppable at times.


Movement off the ball/Timing of runs

We have recently seen from CR7 just how important this attribute is. He is a GOAT footballer in this regard. For me Pele's performances in the 1970 World Cup were reminiscent of recent Cristiano performances, in that he knew his body wasn't the powerhouse it once was but through his sheer ability to read the attacking third, and the ability to time runs and pick up space.. he was an incredible goal threat. The way he times this run and makes the goalkeeper look silly.. iconic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzRsvCsC4c

Pace, Power and Agility

The original Ronaldo is probably the greatest force of nature the game has ever seen, and the two portuguese powerhouses Ronaldo and Eusebio were also fine physical specimens.. but Pele is right up there and IMO with his superior sense of balance/agility, arguably eclipses all of them as the perfect footballing specimen from a physical perspective. That is what gave him that God-like quality which transcends the likes of Messi/Maradona.. they seem like demi-gods, the most gifted humans ever due to their diminutive stature and mortal nature, whereas Pele is truly divine in that sense. He just seems to have it all.



Ambidextrous

Messi, Maradona, Puskas and probably Cruyff (who had a penchant for preferring the outside of the foot) probably fall short when compared to the others in this regard. Pele dare I say it, is arguably one of the most ambidextrous player in history, he has zero hesitation in unleashing shots with his weaker foot (bit like Cristiano) which is incredible considering he's from the 60's. He was like Bobby Charlton in this respect and even in his other videos, he doesn't hesitate to play killer passes with the weaker foot either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGiLXL0RmRY

SUMMARY

I'd say long range passing aside, Pele pretty much nails every other aspect of being an elite attacker. I wish I'd seen more of Di Stefano in his physical prime to see if he can also be a real competitor, I'd say Messi is an outstanding challenger despite his physical deficiencies and lack of a top tier right foot but O Rei do Futebol is truly the indisputed king for me.

Credit @Raees
 

Indnyc

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Good Luck, @2mufc0 .


What was the Santos - Garrincha discussion? Can't remember.

The major discussion was about how having Nilton being the sole outlet down the left flank would be an overburden for him. Thats why we got Best in on the left wing, to be that attacking outlet from the left flank and let Nilton handle Garrincha.
In his first training session with the professional team, he was put up against Brazil international Nilton Santos, who later admitted never before had he encountered a winger who could beat him with such ease – let alone one who was bowlegged.
Nilton Santos, whose humbling on the training field had given birth to Garrincha’s career, told the opposing goalkeeper that day he would tear a piece from his shirt for every goal. He ended the match with his jersey in tatters.
 

2mufc0

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I know it's a bit long but any draft junkie should take some time out and watch this.

 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I think you would have to include Pele for 2mufc there - he’s obviously the best player on the park and he’ll contribute a lot in possession dropping deep and running with the ball.

I think the set up for Pele looks brilliant, particularly given the reunion with Garrincha.
Didi struggled to play at his best when he played with Di Stefano playing the same role as Pele here.

While I have no qualms about Pele's role as a false 9 of sorts, it doesn't do any favors for Didi's Achilles heel. You need to give Didi his space.
 

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Thats not fair on Amancio, bro.
I'll be honest I haven't watched him play a lot. Probably very very little without much attention to him. I appreciate your answer and I do plan to check out the videos tomorrow, but I will be surprised if they changed my mind about him being a final worthy player.
 

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Didi struggled to play at his best when he played with Di Stefano playing the same role as Pele here.

While I have no qualms about Pele's role as a false 9 of sorts, it doesn't do any favors for Didi's Achilles heel. You need to give Didi his space.
ADS was a completely different player in terms of personality, Pele was a better team player and has worked successfully with Didi in the past so don't think it's a fair comparison.
 

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RE: Pele.

this is by his own words and accounts how he used to play at his peak.



of course no one is challenging whether he can play as a false 9 or complete CF, but with Didi here it isn't really the optimal use of him or how he loved to play at his peak.
 

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RE: Pele.

this is by his own words and accounts how he used to play at his peak.



of course no one is challenging whether he can play as a false 9 or complete CF, but with Didi here it isn't really the optimal use of him or how he loved to play at his peak.
And I'm not looking for a traditional CF this front free is supposed to be fluid the CF can come deep or go wide.

If anything I'm not sure Puskas is suited as the front line CF.
 

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ADS was a completely different player in terms of personality, Pele was a better team player and has worked successfully with Didi in the past so don't think it's a fair comparison.
Except, I am not questioning Pele's capability to adapt. I have already said I like him a lot in the role. I am questioning Didi's.

Also, them playing together successfully in the past is pointless. Pele was 19 and was playing a striker's role. Not the hybrid role he is here.
 

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I'll be honest I haven't watched him play a lot. Probably very very little without much attention to him. I appreciate your answer and I do plan to check out the videos tomorrow, but I will be surprised if they changed my mind about him being a final worthy player.
Love him as a player and it's really a shame he doesn't get to feature in finals.

However if he's not worthy of a final appearance, Evra, Seedorf and to a lesser extend Gerets aren't really the shiniest names on the pitch either.

Evra has always been a bit questionable in defence and here he faces GOAT attackers. Gerets will have zero support from Garrincha on that side and can be easily doubled by our attackers. Seedorf and Didi won't really offer any resistance to peak Beckenbauer going forward, and when he was on this is what he could do:

Loved the big occasion as well. Turned the game against England in 70' WC. Another phenomenal run against Italy that led to a goal and bossed it in the center before falling on his shoulder.

Didi and Seedorf would really fail to get grasp of the game considering the unit they are tasked against.
 

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Didi struggled to play at his best when he played with Di Stefano playing the same role as Pele here.

While I have no qualms about Pele's role as a false 9 of sorts, it doesn't do any favors for Didi's Achilles heel. You need to give Didi his space.
That seems extremely harsh to me but fair enough if you think that - I think it’s a real stretch.

Madrid played a 3-2-5 in those days, a five pronged attack with lots of players to go in Didi’s way (if that’s what you’re worried about).

Here Didi is at the tip of a three man midfield which looks well set to get the best out of him. There is not another dominant playmaker in the team apart from Didi, Pele would be the only one and he’s clearly much less of that sort than Di Stefano was particularly given he isn’t even being played as a #10 in this match. I really don’t see the problem.

In Brazil ‘70 Pele made that collection of #10’s look better rather than worse, so I really see it as highly unlikely that Pele would somehow detract from Didi’s game or stifle him as a player.
 

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Love him as a player and it's really a shame he doesn't get to feature in finals.

However if he's not worthy of a final appearance, Evra, Seedorf and to a lesser extend Gerets aren't really the shiniest names on the pitch either.

Evra has always been a bit questionable in defence and here he faces GOAT attackers. Gerets will have zero support from Garrincha on that side and can be easily doubled by our attackers. Seedorf and Didi won't really offer any resistance to peak Beckenbauer going forward, and when he was on this is what he could do:

Loved the big occasion as well. Turned the game against England in 70' WC. Another phenomenal run against Italy that led to a goal and bossed it in the center before falling on his shoulder.

Didi and Seedorf would really fail to get grasp of the game considering the unit they are tasked against.
Yes Kaiser can do that that when he is the main man.

Here you have Scirea, Beckenbauer and Zidane all doing similar things. And I don't see any of them limiting their game so the others can play esp Zidane.
 

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@Indnyc re: Nilton vs Garrincha. That was in training mate without Nilton or any of the seniors even knowing who Garrincha was. A bit like young Ronaldo at Sporting. You can't seriously take that example in a possible matchup here. Many players humiliate each other at training, not really something I'd build a debate on tbh.
 

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Garrincha and Nilton have a history (of Garrincha humiliating him on a training ground). That's about it.
This is by Ruy Castro, who wrote the Garrincha biography.

"Garrincha arrived in the Botafogo team with the indication of “Mr. Araty” and was soon presented to the team’s trainer, Gentil Cardoso, who put him to train with the main players. Garrincha played well. He returned to Pau Grande as a Botafogo player.

In this passage, Castro (1995) deconstructs the story, constantly recalled by the Brazilian media and in the talks of soccer aficionados, that Garrincha had, in this training, consecutively dribbled Nilton Santos. Castro (1995, p. 58) narrates a balanced fight between both players: “The incredible thing was that it was an equal meeting, considering that, on one hand, there was Nilton Santos, with sixteen games wearing the Brazilian national team jersey; and on the other, an unknown and crooked player, who preferred to play barefooted in his land and only wore soccer boots socially". The author intends to correct distortions and romantic views present in oral memory in favor of presenting the "truth". However, if the confrontation between experience and geniality is a draw, we will have, for the future, with the incorporation
of experience, the triumph of geniality:- therefore, Garrincha is greater."

Garrincha did get the better of Nilton but it wasn't exactly a destruction or anything.
 

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And I'm not looking for a traditional CF this front free is supposed to be fluid the CF can come deep or go wide.

If anything I'm not sure Puskas is suited as the front line CF.
The team that you have put up seems like team build around Didi, not Pele. Didi in that role clashed with Di Stefano as @GodShaveTheQueen already pointed out. Here Pele seems not the centerpiece of the puzzle but rather Didi is. And not really him that is grabbing the highlight or enjoys most of the ball for your side.
 

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The team that you have put up seems like team build around Didi, not Pele. Didi in that role clashed with Di Stefano as @GodShaveTheQueen already pointed out. Here Pele seems not the centerpiece of the puzzle but rather Didi is. And not really him that is grabbing the highlight or enjoys most of the ball for your side.
Pele was the player out of all the GOAT attackers that could link creative players together, there's no reason why they can't both function together and I disagree with you and GSQ in this respect.
 

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Yes Kaiser can do that that when he is the main man.

Here you have Scirea, Beckenbauer and Zidane all doing simolar things. And I don't see any of them limiting their game so the others can play esp Zidane.
Beckenbauer did that in various set ups mate. Never I've seen anyone say something about him or Neeskens failing to shine because they played with great players. Beckenbauer adjusted to Schulz being the sweeper in 66. Formed a brilliant partnership with Muller and Netzer. Was fantastic for both club and country.

He didn't fall with anyone from what I can recall.

With Didi it's not really the same. He was a dominant playmaker who didn't take crap from anyone - including none other than Don Stefano.
 

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Madrid played a 3-2-5 in those days, a five pronged attack with lots of players to go in Didi’s way (if that’s what you’re worried about).
4 out of those front 5 played in different zones than Didi's. At least that is what I understand from watching that Madrid play.

The inside forwards would not drop that deep. The wingers would but almost always run outwide even if they collected the ball deep. Di Stefano was the only one who would actually drop too deep. So for me, it was pretty much still a 3 man midfield. The 5 front men influencing the midfield areas is not how their game looked to me.
 

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RE: Pele.

this is by his own words and accounts how he used to play at his peak.

of course no one is challenging whether he can play as a false 9 or complete CF, but with Didi here it isn't really the optimal use of him or how he loved to play at his peak.
I don’t see how that contradicts how Pele is being used here as a false #9, as he has that freedom to drop deeper and pick the ball up from midfield.

Pele’s point is just that he wasn’t a static number 9 who stood up front, but that he was a complete player who contributed in all phases.

To be honest I think Pele’s role is much more natural than Puskas’s, who was more of a second striker at his best as well - in contrast to Pele I would have some concerns with his mobility and work rate to play a lone striker role. He was not as complete as a player.
 

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@2mufc0

It would be interesting to see Nilton's domestic record against Garrincha. Probably what my vote hinges on right now. I'll check back tomorrow. Good luck lads.