U23s - Manchester United vs Norwich

[kundalini]

Kovar, Tanner, Williams, Ercolani, Bernard, O'Connor, Levitt, Traore, Bohui, Burkart, Ramazani

Subs: Woolston, Warren, Olosunde, McCann, Galbraith

Looks like attempting to make the promotion play-offs isn't near the top of the agenda. I can understand some of Garner, Gomes, Chong and Greenwood being in the 18 against Southampton but they aren't all going to. Perhaps the first team schedule is the issue.

 

[limerickcitykid]

O'Connor in midfield. Bit tired of him being pushed around tbh.

 

[lysglimt]

Super goal from Bohui

 

[Kidders]

Nice goal out of nothing from Josh Bohui

 

[Kidders]

O'Connor in midfield. Bit tired of him being pushed around tbh.

Where would you like to see him play ?

 

[AltiUn]

Where would you like to see him play ?

RBs probably his best position.

 

[lysglimt]

The last 15 minutes have been some of the best football I have seen from these guys all season

 

[Kidders]

RBs probably his best position.

I agree but he's got a lot of competition.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Where would you like to see him play ?

In the position we see his future in. Not pushed all over the place to accommodate bang average players like George Tanner.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I see we're graced with another atrocious ref. That's fecking laughable.

 

[KM]

How was that a penalty?

 

[Robin]

He will be embarrassed when he sees that back

 

[limerickcitykid]

Concede from a corner? Well that's a fecking given.

 

[lysglimt]

poor defending from a corner and 1-2. But it should never have been given as there was a clear foul on Levitt prior to the corner

 

[lysglimt]

We are poor up front - lacking concentration in defense and our goalkeepers usually always have one mistake in them

 

[Robin]

This is like the Blackburn game last week, 2 up and cruising then just run out of steam, best team in the first half here and hardly a save from their keeper this half

 

[bdecuc]

To be fair they're not a great team etc but seems like they can't buy a bit of luck recently.

 

[POF]

O'Connor in midfield. Bit tired of him being pushed around tbh.

He'll end up being a Joe Riley. A good reliable reserve player who can play multiple roles but won't develop to be top class in any of them. It's a massive shame because when looking at the best players in the u18 teams he played in, he deserved to be included with Gomes, Chong and Garner.

 

[In Rainbows]

-2 goal differential in the league for Sbragia's side

 

[AltiUn]

-2 goal differential in the league for Sbragia's side

There’s no way he can survive till next season, surely.

 

[limerickcitykid]

He'll end up being a Joe Riley. A good reliable reserve player who can play multiple roles but won't develop to be top class in any of them. It's a massive shame because when looking at the best players in the u18 teams he played in, he deserved to be included with Gomes, Chong and Garner.

If he ends up the level of Joe Riley then it'll be ridiculous tbh. As you say, he was the second best player in the u18s two years in a row and should be in the group with Gomes, Chong, and Garner. If he's playing u23s football next year I'll be absolutely pissed. He's a huge talent and we'll be destroying one of Ireland's best talents in years by wasting his time. I'd prefer a permanent move in the summer for him at this point.

 

[limerickcitykid]

There’s no way he can survive till next season, surely.

Something about u23s doesn't matter, blah blah, squad was missing, blah blah and what do you know he's serving up pure shite and stunting player development for 3 years in a row. It's a joke, anything good you can say about Butt running the academy is immediately counterbalanced by him thinking Sbragia should be anywhere near the club.

 

[POF]

If he ends up the level of Joe Riley then it'll be ridiculous tbh. As you say, he was the second best player in the u18s two years in a row and should be in the group with Gomes, Chong, and Garner. If he's playing u23s football next year I'll be absolutely pissed. He's a huge talent and we'll be destroying one of Ireland's best talents in years by wasting his time. I'd prefer a permanent move in the summer for him at this point.

He hasn't played enough football at right back. He was played at centre back to hold the u18s defence together but it was to the detriment of his own game. He was never going to be a centre back in senior football.

Modern day right backs need end product in the final third. He has the ability but he won't develop it playing centre back. I remember one game for the u18s he played right back and scored twice. He didn't play there again for months.

At full back, he now plays too safely to stand out. He doesn't know what type of player he is and now his coach is Ricky Sbragia. It's hard to see a positive future for him at United.

 

[Class of 63]

Played well the last two matches but just can't catch a break at the minute.

And if Brandon Williams continues his current form he'll be the next getting a first-team call up and it wouldn't surprise me if he actually debuted(word) this season. He's a near cert for the Summer tour anyway, once the club decide where and when it's going to be.

 

[Class of 63]

Something about u23s doesn't matter, blah blah, squad was missing, blah blah and what do you know he's serving up pure shite and stunting player development for 3 years in a row. It's a joke, anything good you can say about Butt running the academy is immediately counterbalanced by him thinking Sbragia should be anywhere near the club.

And yet he's highly regarded in the club, and you won't find anybody that has worked with and for him say a bad word about him.

It's about development, if it's so shit, just don't watch it.

 

[POF]

And yet he's highly regarded in the club, and you won't find anybody that has worked with and for him say a bad word about him.

It's about development, if it's so shit, just don't watch it.

You're contradicting yourself there. As you said, it is about development and the lack of it is the concern. Nothing to do with the games being shit.

The issue is how an outstanding technical u18 team has progressed to the u23s and is incapable of replicating that type of football. Smaller more technical players like Whelan and Buffonge are overlooked for more physical ones like Hamilton.

The u23s is a difficult group because the talented ones train a lot with the seniors but it's worrying how so many players look less likely to be able to make it in the senior squad after a spell in the u23s. Greenwood and Garner look far more impressive dipping in and out from the u18s than Gomes and Chong who are with the u23s full time.

 

[Ekeke]

Smaller more technical players are always likely to find it harder moving up the levels. In the u18s they're playing against other kids with limited knowledge, in the u23s they're playing against young adults with very incomplete games and then in the first team its adults and veteran players. Each of those groups is likely to have more experience and tricks to deal with smaller more technical players using their size and strength against them.

Its the minority of youngsters who come through and instantly know how to use their ability to hurt teams full of older more experienced players. Some of those talented youngsters take a long time to work it out. Some never do because they've always coasted through on their ability and never really needed to learn how to read the game and do things like time runs and make use of space that other players have created for them. And can they suddenly change and learn how to do these things? Some do, some dont.

 

[Class of 63]

You're contradicting yourself there. As you said, it is about development and the lack of it is the concern. Nothing to do with the games being shit.

The issue is how an outstanding technical u18 team has progressed to the u23s and is incapable of replicating that type of football. Smaller more technical players like Whelan and Buffonge are overlooked for more physical ones like Hamilton.

The u23s is a difficult group because the talented ones train a lot with the seniors but it's worrying how so many players look less likely to be able to make it in the senior squad after a spell in the u23s. Greenwood and Garner look far more impressive dipping in and out from the u18s than Gomes and Chong who are with the u23s full time.

Not contradicting myself at all, I just can't get my head around posters getting so bent out of shape about a friggin Reserve match. The better players will always progress whether the team is playing great football or stinking the place out. In fact you can learn more about players character wise(the talent is given)during/after a sequence of defeats than in a team blowing everybody away.

 

[POF]

Smaller more technical players are always likely to find it harder moving up the levels. In the u18s they're playing against other kids with limited knowledge, in the u23s they're playing against young adults with very incomplete games and then in the first team its adults and veteran players. Each of those groups is likely to have more experience and tricks to deal with smaller more technical players using their size and strength against them.

Its the minority of youngsters who come through and instantly know how to use their ability to hurt teams full of older more experienced players. Some of those talented youngsters take a long time to work it out. Some never do because they've always coasted through on their ability and never really needed to learn how to read the game and do things like time runs and make use of space that other players have created for them. And can they suddenly change and learn how to do these things? Some do, some dont.

I agree with your overall point, but isn't the job of the coach to develop the technically better players in other areas rather than dump them for a more physical player?

Chances are, most of these kids will never get anywhere near the first team and that's to be expected. But you need to give them the best chance.

Tahith Chong was amazing when he first moved up to the u23s. Now, he's far less impressive. Greenwood played a few u23 games, looked quality and thankfully dropped back down. Lee O'Connor looks less likely to be a first team player with every u23 game he plays and still hasn't got a preferred position.

Levitt and B Williams are u18 players who were impressive against Norwich. If the club sees first team potential in them (I don't think Levitt is good enough personally), then the less u23 football they play the better.

With the number of disastrous loans United's promising kids have had lately, it would be nice if there was more obvious development of the players in the u23s.

 

[POF]

Not contradicting myself at all, I just can't get my head around posters getting so bent out of shape about a friggin Reserve match. The better players will always progress whether the team is playing great football or stinking the place out. In fact you can learn more about players character wise(the talent is given)during/after a sequence of defeats than in a team blowing everybody away.

What you've said there seems to be the club's view and maybe you're right. It sounds crazy to me. Surely this is a critical stage to bridge the gap to the first team and "the good ones will progress anyway" seems such an odd attitude.

When you see a young player like Fosu Mensah go out on 2 EPL loans as a full back with absolutely no clue how to play the role, it calls into question what sort of development he got while in the reserves. If he played 2 full seasons at Palace and Fulham he could be first choice for United there next season. Now, he'll be lucky to stay at the club and United will have to spend big on a right back.

Being utterly useless at defending set pieces is unlikely to help either and it is a recurring problem in the u23s that they seem determined not to fix. That could be the difference between a player going on loan and staying in the side vs getting dropped for some clogger who is more reliable.

If people are getting upset over u23 results, I agree with you. I don't care if the reserves lose every game if there is a clear sign of player development but the opposite seems true. In the current United u23 set up, most players look better in their first few games at that level than over the longer term. That is a really bad sign.

 

[Ekeke]

I agree with your overall point, but isn't the job of the coach to develop the technically better players in other areas rather than dump them for a more physical player?

Chances are, most of these kids will never get anywhere near the first team and that's to be expected. But you need to give them the best chance.

Tahith Chong was amazing when he first moved up to the u23s. Now, he's far less impressive. Greenwood played a few u23 games, looked quality and thankfully dropped back down. Lee O'Connor looks less likely to be a first team player with every u23 game he plays and still hasn't got a preferred position.

Levitt and B Williams are u18 players who were impressive against Norwich. If the club sees first team potential in them (I don't think Levitt is good enough personally), then the less u23 football they play the better.

With the number of disastrous loans United's promising kids have had lately, it would be nice if there was more obvious development of the players in the u23s.

I think its both.

The manager has to pick the players he believes are ready to go and win the games and the technical/under developed players sitting out need to work out a way to make sure they're effective any chance they get to come in and show they cant be left out.

In some ways it can even benefit the player sometimes to be left out and need to work harder and improve quicker than the player in their position. That kind of determination and hard work can make them a better player throughout their career. An example of that in the first team is someone like Evra. He was a bit weak in the air when he first came in and Heinze was strong in the air, so Evra was left out. Soon Evra comes back and he's leaping twice his size in the air, turning a weakness into a strength. I think that kind of hard work and determination helped make him and his career at United. And of course Heinze wasn't as technically talented so he had little chance of being able to come back and win the position back.

But thats when it works out. If it goes the opposite way and the player left out just loses confidence and wilts, you do have to ask the question of whether that player was going to be the genuine article anyway. I know they're young and we want to see all the talented players do well, but they need to have more than just that natural talent. They need the hard work and determination to go with it because theres no way their career will be plain sailing from start to finish. Even if they develop and start matches for the first team, at times they'll lose their place. How do they deal with that? They'll have injuries. How do they deal with that? So they need to have character as well as talent. Some will and some wont.

Chong had an injury didnt he?

I personally think Levitt has something, some of his passes have great technique but again you need more than that. I can see him being a premier league player though for someone.

 

[Class of 63]

What you've said there seems to be the club's view and maybe you're right. It sounds crazy to me. Surely this is a critical stage to bridge the gap to the first team and "the good ones will progress anyway" seems such an odd attitude.

When you see a young player like Fosu Mensah go out on 2 EPL loans as a full back with absolutely no clue how to play the role, it calls into question what sort of development he got while in the reserves. If he played 2 full seasons at Palace and Fulham he could be first choice for United there next season. Now, he'll be lucky to stay at the club and United will have to spend big on a right back.

Being utterly useless at defending set pieces is unlikely to help either and it is a recurring problem in the u23s that they seem determined not to fix. That could be the difference between a player going on loan and staying in the side vs getting dropped for some clogger who is more reliable.

If people are getting upset over u23 results, I agree with you. I don't care if the reserves lose every game if there is a clear sign of player development but the opposite seems true. In the current United u23 set up, most players look better in their first few games at that level than over the longer term. That is a really bad sign.

I think the club have long since given up on Reserve/u23/u21 team football as it just isn't fit for purpose any more, it's just an obligation now, there have been too many changes and often just for the sake of it over a short period of time with not much thought going into it.

I've nothing to back it up but there seems to be more youngsters jumping straight from the 18s to the first-team at Premier League clubs these days than ever before so maybe other clubs feel the same, it's rare you see a debutant now that has spent a few years in a clubs 23s team learning his trade then stepping up, it's more likely he's a kid that has impressed in a few Academy/FAYC games.

Don't know what the answer is, but i'd go back to how it was with the Central League, and the 'A' and 'B' sides in a heartbeat where the best 15/16 year old lads were exposed to mens football and were getting a proper football education before they even got up to the 'A' team.

 

[POF]

I think the club have long since given up on Reserve/u23/u21 team football as it just isn't fit for purpose any more, it's just an obligation now, there have been too many changes and often just for the sake of it over a short period of time with not much thought going into it.

I've nothing to back it up but there seems to be more youngsters jumping straight from the 18s to the first-team at Premier League clubs these days than ever before so maybe other clubs feel the same, it's rare you see a debutant now that has spent a few years in a clubs 23s team learning his trade then stepping up, it's more likely he's a kid that has impressed in a few Academy/FAYC games.

Don't know what the answer is, but i'd go back to how it was with the Central League, and the 'A' and 'B' sides in a heartbeat where the best 15/16 year old lads were exposed to mens football and were getting a proper football education before they even got up to the 'A' team.

I agree with the bold but I don't understand it. Someone like Angel Gomes (and Lingard before him) need longer to develop physically and won't be ready to go from u18s to the first team. Lee O'Connor too.

The club clearly dislikes the u23 set up but it is what is in place and the only other option is to farm out the development of these players to other clubs via loans. For a club that prides itself on the academy, that can't be the right solution.

I think it's an extremely disappointing attitude to take. It shouldn't be that the longer a player spends in United's reserve team, the less chance they have of making it in the game. Currently, that is the case.

 

[Class of 63]

I agree with the bold but I don't understand it. Someone like Angel Gomes (and Lingard before him) need longer to develop physically and won't be ready to go from u18s to the first team. Lee O'Connor too.

The club clearly dislikes the u23 set up but it is what is in place and the only other option is to farm out the development of these players to other clubs via loans. For a club that prides itself on the academy, that can't be the right solution.

I think it's an extremely disappointing attitude to take. It shouldn't be that the longer a player spends in United's reserve team, the less chance they have of making it in the game. Currently, that is the case.

It's probably forbidden in the small print in the latest Premier League contract but it's time for the clubs to take a stand and do what Spurs did a few years ago and pull their Reserve side from the under 23 League, en-masse until they come up with an idea that is workable, unlike the shambles we have at the moment.

Recognised feeder clubs in the the lower Leagues would work, but.....

 

[POF]

It's probably forbidden in the small print in the latest Premier League contract but it's time for the clubs to take a stand and do what Spurs did a few years ago and pull their Reserve side from the under 23 League, en-masse until they come up with an idea that is workable, unlike the shambles we have at the moment.

Recognised feeder clubs in the the lower Leagues would work, but.....

What is it about the set up that the club has such an issue with? I honestly don't understand it.

To me, it seems that it is not useful for the players' development because United put no effort into it rather than vice versa.

 

[Kidders]

In the position we see his future in. Not pushed all over the place to accommodate bang average players like George Tanner.

Tanner is nothing special I agree, but there is a lot mediocrity in our U-23's, the current set up does'nt seem to be the right platform to develope players, I try to watch other youth/reserve games involving 'other' teams and its not great viewing.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Tanner is nothing special I agree, but there is a lot mediocrity in our U-23's, the current set up does'nt seem to be the right platform to develope players, I try to watch other youth/reserve games involving 'other' teams and its not great viewing.

And yet their is even more mediocrity and shit in the u18s. The majority of u18s barely even have a tactical defensive set up and are cut open with ease. If you think u23s football is bad then u18s is miles worse.

 

[limerickcitykid]

And yet he's highly regarded in the club, and you won't find anybody that has worked with and for him say a bad word about him.

It's about development, if it's so shit, just don't watch it.

What development? It's been nearly two years and we still can't defend a wide ball in to save our lives. Where is the development? Getting us relegated so we don't even get to play the best opposition is fantastic for development right? Defenders who can't do basic things with attacks who struggle to string passes together. Such amazing development . Who has developed under him? In fact they've roundly declined and stagnated.

I imagine a few of those players would have a bad word to say about his garbage coaching. Especially DJ.

You've had your head up his ass the whole time though and regularly claim we played well despite struggling to string an attack together though so frankly your opinion is meaningless.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I've nothing to back it up but there seems to be more youngsters jumping straight from the 18s to the first-team at Premier League clubs these days than ever before so maybe other clubs feel the same, it's rare you see a debutant now that has spent a few years in a clubs 23s team learning his trade then stepping up, it's more likely he's a kid that has impressed in a few Academy/FAYC games.

Nothing to back it up because it isn't true. Sessegnon is pretty much the only one and he wasn't at a PL club. Rashford is about the second and even he still made about 10 appearances. It was always rare to see a debutant with a few years at u23s because it never happened. Its always been 1-1.5 years at the level, the exact same as u18s. What is rare to see is players completely skipping u23s like you claim.

The most played young players in the league like Rice, Valery, Tom Davies, Diangana, Quina, Skipp, Obafemi, Callum Slattery, Hudson-Odoi, Iwobi, Longstaff, Maintland-Niles etc. have mostly played between 25-65 u23s games.

Even Gibbs-White played almost 20 games and he was breaking through at a Championship club. The closest you can really claim is Foden who has around 10 appearances, but even he'd have more if he didn't get a long injury last season or miss a bunch of games for the u17s WC.

 

[Class of 63]

What is it about the set up that the club has such an issue with? I honestly don't understand it.

To me, it seems that it is not useful for the players' development because United put no effort into it rather than vice versa.

Not sure what's so hard to understand, it's basically just another youth League that doesn't prepare the players for Men's football, and it's no surprise more and more clubs are getting their best young players out on loan earlier and letting them swerve Premier League 2 all together. or at least until they've had some first team experience.

Maybe they're just making the best of a bad job at the minute, and are waiting for the DOF to come in and decide which direction the club should take.