Auction Draft SF : GSTQ vs. Enigma/Don Alfredo

Who will win this match


  • Total voters
    20
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
GodShaveTheQueen —————————————-vs. Enigma/Don Alfredo

vs.


Tactics GSTQ

GSTQ (praying) : Oh great Footballing Gods of the world, please give me the recipe to build a perfect football team....

Football Gods :
Its easy son. Fill your defense with some of the best Italian defenders of all time, fill your attack with some of the best Brazilian attackers of all time and finally add a German in the middle for luck. Victory shall be yours !!

Style of play :
Quick counter attacking football. Build from the back when not counter attacking with the idea of pacing things up in the final third.

Tactics : Stay organized and in shape defensively as a unit when not in possession of the ball and hit them hard and fast on the counters after winning the ball.

Defending style : Zonal defending inspired by Mourinho's Inter Milan setup against Barcelona.

I don't like my teams to play man to man. We play zones. Messi was in Motta duels, Cambiasso duels, defender duels. It was team work.
I have decided to not write a big OP this time as most people don't read it. So lets discuss things in the thread. Am sure there will be a lot of talking points.

Tactics Enigma/DonAlfredo

Formation:- 4-3-3 with a false 9. Press the opponent into mistake, possession based, take control of midfield
Defensive line:- Normal to high.
Style:- Cruyff inspired 4-3-3. Form triangles and employ short, direct passes and look to control proceedings. Look for openings, stretch the opposition defence and a lot of movement in midfield and the front line. We're looking for quick passes using the space, forming triangles, double passes, depth, pausing, rhythm and thus open up the pitch in the attacking third.


GK:- Ray Clemence - A goalkeeper that doesn't get enough dues. A stand-out as Liverpool’s greatest-ever goalkeeper and the standard by which all other Reds keepers are judged, Clemence was between the sticks when Liverpool were in their pomp. Clemence had it all as a keeper – he was consistent, reliable, a great shot stopper, comfortable with crosses, a good distributor of the ball, a good organiser of his defence.

RB:- Dani Alves - the finest RB Barca ever had. He helped Barca put 23 trophies in the cabinet over a glorious eight-year stay at the club, won 2 EL with Sevilla and even in his 30's continued his success winning Seria A and the French league. And if the trophy cabinet doesn't say enough his individual records speak for itself - Dani Alves was the third player in La Liga history to register 100 assists after Lionel Messi and Luis Figo. Not only that but at Barca and Sevilla he came against one of the best modern day wingers/forwards and often came on top - Ronaldinho, Cristiano, which speaks volumes for his defensive acumen.

CB:- Elias Figueroa -
Don Elias is one of the finest defenders in history. Someone who neutralized Gerd Muller at the biggest stage and yet further afield he was a central defender playing at the very peak of his game during this era, a player good enough to be voted South American Player of the Year three times in succession between 1974 and 1976. Elías Figueroa was a revelation: a cultured sweeper with style, fine technique on the ball and an unusual penchant for clean play – he was sent-off on just one occasion during his 18-year career. His human qualities were considerable, too. This was a natural leader who was given the captaincy of every club he played for and who racked up no end of individual awards for his consistent excellence. To this day he’s considered the best foreign footballer to have played in both Uruguay and Brazil.

CB:- Hector Chumpitaz - One of the finest South American defenders, he was excellent on the ball - which dovetails our style pretty well. Fast, strong, solid defender who was part of Peru's golden generation that won Copa America in 75'

LB:- Eric Abidal - Abidal is one of the most decorated French footballers in recent history. A powerful left-back, he amassed over 400 club appearances, as well as 67 international caps, across a career spanning 15 years. At club level, Abidal won it all: eight league titles, a pair of Champions League trophies, a Club World Cup and numerous other cup competitions. He challenged himself across three different countries and succeeded in each.

DM:- Sergio Busquets - A pivot, he was the fulcrum of the entire midfield and was the single most important piece(ahead of Messi) on the pitch in terms of Barca's system. He encapsulated to roles seamlessly. A defensive midfielder, he was tasked with cutting out passing lanes and tackling the opposition. His brilliant reading of the games ensured his lack of pace was rarely an issue as he would rather cut out a dangerous pass than to chase it down and hack the opposition. As a holding midfielder he was solely responsible for carrying the ball forward from failed attacks(both oppositions and Barca's). His brilliant passing range and body feints would open up spaces in front of him out of thin air(and Xavi would pop up there out of thin air too). His vision and one-touch passing would frequently render one/two lines of opposition and free up his advance players to move in acres of space.

RCM:- Xavi - At his peak, Xavi controlled every game he was ever part of. What Xavi engineered was trust. There was an old video that showed how him and Iniesta were so linked that they made the same gestures on the field. When Xavi was at his best, he transmitted that to all of his teammates. His Barcelona were so devastating because it seemed like they didn’t have to look to pass the ball, everything moved so fluidly because players could touch the ball into space knowing that their teammate would be there, or on the way there.

LCM:- Andres Iniesta - Him and Xavi are probably the best midfielders of its generation. He is brilliant in every aspect of the game. There is no other more complete footballer than Andres Iniesta. He can attack, defend, create and score. Probably the most versatile and unique player of all-time and one of the best players of his era. Under Rijkaard he played as a false 9, attacking midfielder and winger. Iniesta is a player who can not only win leagues but also matches when it matters with his consistency and sheer prowess.

LW:- George Best -
A great dribbler and goalscorer, Best was one of the first superstar footballers in England and one of the greatest stars in a Manchester United team, which included Bobby Charlton and Denis Law. A showman; a genius; a God and a Devil. A Red Devil, at that. George Best had it all. He was also brave as well as skillful and was the first modern-day footballer in the way he transcended the sport and became part of popular culture. But, above all, he was brilliant player even if he retired prematurely aged 28.

RW:- Allan Simonsen - Another Ballon D'or winner who won the European Footballer of the Year Award in 1977, beating Kevin Keegan and Johan Cruyff in the process. Simonsen was part of the Borussia Mönchengladbach side that hammered by Liverpool in the 1977 European Cup final. He scored a cracker in the Rome final and the only player to have scored in the European Cup, UEFA Cup, and Cup Winners' Cup finals.


False 9:- Johan Cruyff - One of the GOAT's. His claim to the best ever wasn't the pure goal number. His intelligence on the pitch, his awareness, and team work has higher importance than his personal goal tally. He hasn’t scored 1,000 goals in his career but he has assisted many and was involvement very much in every goal his team used to score. Whether it’s Ajax, Barcelona, or Dutch national team, each one of them owe something to Cruyff.

Defence:- Marshaled by Elias Figueroa, we have 2 excellent CB's on the ball, with two great stylistic fits in Dani Alves and Abidal. Both full backs will provide width in attack, and cover their man defensively. Figueroa and Chumpitaz will form and impassable wall for the opposition forwards and are both physical and great in the air and on the deck. We've added non other than Dani Alves at the RB position and his chemistry with Xavi is well known. He will be able to boss that right wing but also be an excellent defensive presence against Best.

Midfield:- A midfield unit build around Xavi. He forms a familiar Xaviesta pairing and even more so Busquets anchoring behind them in his holder role. Busquets will break up the game, intercept opposition counters and link the defence and midfield and his ability on the ball will be well appreciated and combined with the Xavi/Iniesta quality ahead of him should give us control of the game. An actual term in urban dictionary it has the best representative of their play - the amazing and god like combination of xavi and iniesta on the same pitch playing together with a telepathic like ability to find themselves and others on the field.

With the addition of Busquets we form arguably the most established and best midfield unit of all time. This trio was successful because of how each role was complementary to the other and the players played it to perfection. A dribbler and defence-splitting passer, a orchestrator who kept the ball flowing from back to front and flank to flank, and a defensive midfielder who could intercept and pass with a single touch, all came together to form a midfield that could squeeze out the opponents.


Attack:- Ballon D'or winners Simonsen, Cruyff and Best will lead our attack. In their favorite roles, they will dovetail nicely and are one of the biggest match winners on the pitch. Allan Simonsen was a majestic footballer on the ball, he is able to press the opposition into mistake link up with our attack and score important goals.

vs GSTQ:- Obviously GSTQ has a great spine, but we have the advantage on the wings and definite superiority in midfield.

- Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta - will take control of the midfield battle cutting the supply to Zico, Romario and Ronaldo. We should have the domination of the middle of the park and cut the passing lanes to the opposition forwards.

- Best/Abidal, Simonsen/Alves against opposition full backs - our wide options are superior compared to the opposition and Best/Cruyff/Iniesta supported by Abidal is a fantastic wide option where we can definitely do great damage against Ferrara and Leandro on the side.

- Chumpitaz/Figueroa against Ro-Ro duo - there are hardly any better CB pairing that could stop the Ro-Ro duo. Chumpitaz and Figueroa are obviously fantastic defenders but they also have pace to burn and excellent positional sense.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
THE CURIOUS CASE OF BRAZILIAN FULLBACKS AND REDCAFE DRAFTS - PART 1 - CHICKENING OUT

I originally had planned to make a separate thread on this topic sometime but thought this game was as good a place as any to pilot the discussion.
Might be a bit long, so if you do plan to read it, please bear with me. So what triggered this post?

Well, I was flying high in my mind during the reinforcements. Through some good business and calculation, I had managed to pull off a Ronaldo-Romario-Zico attack. The rest of the team was also built to compliment them well and I thought at that point of time that I had a very good chance of beating any of the other remaining teams.

Fast forward to the end of the reinforcements period and the Dogma team through some good business and calculation as well, pull out a big gun in George Best. The draw happens immediately afterwards and my team draws them.

I look over both the teams and I feel fairly confident till I end up realizing Leandro shall be facing George Best. The thought of one of the best wingers of all time, no less a Manchester United Legend facing up against my attacking Brazilian wingback makes me think this won't end well in the eyes of the Caf drafters. I just knew that the voters would see this as a simple equation.

George Best + Brazilian attacking wingback = Game over.

I decide to weigh my options. There were only two really.

1. Play Leandro as a RWB like I originally planned. I was really not excited about this.
2. Play Benarrivo as a RWB and play Leandro as a LWB.

Leandro was a really versatile player. Below was a quote from him on himself.
I can say that I just did not play goalie. I was a lateral (fullback), but I acted from both sides. Also in the wings, in the middle, in the center of the defense and even in the center forward. All that. At the time, it was said to be polyvalent (versatile). And there were already people who thought that this polyvalent history was a ruin, that I, doing everything, would end up without a place. Today, who plays from both sides has a great advantage and place in any team.
I decided to find any videos or games of Leandro playing there and I was really lucky in finding a couple of games almost instantaneously. I thought I found an escape route. Benarrivo is as balanced as it gets and with Ferrara being perfectly complimentary cover for him on the right side, I thought that was the George Best situation addressed.

So now I decide to do a bit of research on how well could Leandro play as a LWB. The clips showed he was decent but was he good enough at an all time level there? Was he good enough for a 5-3-2 which demands regular runs from its wing backs? I decided to look at games in more details but in the meanwhile, I decided to see what the normal Redcafe audience (not the draft audience) thought of him. So I lazily searched for Leandro on Redcafe.

One of the very first posts I found was from a thread called Post your greatest 1980-2019 lineup. The post seemed to be from a long time (old enough) Flamengo supporter (I am not going to quote him or send him a notification for obvious reason but will tag him to post after the game ends).

After have all the lists here, I had to check out the title of the topic to make sure this thread is related to 1980-2019.

Alright... let's advance
GK - Buffon
RB - Leandro
CB - Baresi
CB - Scirea
LB - Maldini (c)
MF - Redondo
MF - Rijkaard
MF - Maradona
MF - Zico
FW - Messi
FW - Ronaldo

Before someone bashes my choice for Leandro as the right-back, I inform you that Leandro was one of the best and most complete right-backs ever. Definitely he owned all the atributes that is required of a full-back: his long passes was highly accurate (more than every player nowadays for sure), he had excellent positioning by attacking and defending with the same category, great sensory of colectiveness, surprisingly technical for a defender and very clever to make right decisions in the field. Due to his vision and gifted skills, he could play in other positions fairly well what makes him a quite versatile player - the only position he'd never played before was like a keeper.
I was pleased to see this but it didn't change my mind. But I did decide to send him a message to check with him about what he thought about me playing Leandro as a LWB. Does he think he was good enough to play there? And if there are any memorable games I should check out with him playing that role. I do mention to him why I am not excited to play him as a RWB.

Hello, dude!!!

No, I haven't seen these draft games threads yet, but it sounds pretty interesting. Where are these topics?

Well... as for Leandro, even though his style was clearly attack-minded, I can say he could do a very good job as a defensive player as well. After all, he was used to playing as a center-back regularly for Flamengo since his injuries started hindering his capability to go forward and back as usual; however, his overall performance was still praised enough to be called up for Brazil NT.

In my opinion, I'd suggest taking advantage of his offensive play as much as possible because his strongest spot is his natural ability when he has the ball on his feet. His mind looked like always serene when the ball was over his possession even under pressure thanks to his dribbling skills and accurate passes.

Actually I think Leandro didn't play too much on the left because both Flamengo and Brazil relied on Junior, but I remember he was very skillful with his left foot too. Carlos Alberto Torres, Flamengo's coach in 1983, also put him to play as a LW occasionally in order to exploit his offensive skills.
His point made a lot of sense to me. Removing Leandro from the RWB position more or less removes the special player tag from him. One who definitely doesn't deserve to be in an all time draft semifinal.

And his post about Leandro's defensive game gave me something more to research for. Maybe I should not chicken out from playing him in his best position just because the voters would think "George Best + Brazilian attacking wingback = Game over."

In a way I was also looking at it the same way as them, so not really blaming anyone. We all are sometimes really bad with generalizing. More on Leandro in part 3.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
THE CURIOUS CASE OF BRAZILIAN FULLBACKS AND REDCAFE DRAFTS - PART 2 - GENERALIZING

I think the problem with judging most Brazilian full backs comes down to a come theme. We generalize them into separate brackets.

1. The first ones. All time greats who were the pioneers of attacking from the back along the wings.
  • Considering the great plethora of attacking talent that followed them, even these first ones are often generalized to be as good as wing backs capable of manning the wings.
  • Most common example of course being Nilton Santos who was a right footed player most evidence of whom shows him as more of right footed play maker from the deep rather an overlapper, let alone being one capable of manning a flank on his own.
  • Yet we see him running flanks on his own, be it a diamond or a 5-3-2. Or being responsible for proving significant width to the team while still being capable of handling top wingers let alone the GOAT's.
  • Another example, but one less often seen is the use of Djalma Santos as one capable of supporting the winger in front of him. No point discussing this as I have never seen an iota of evidence being provided.

2. The wrong footed full backs. All time greats, but not capable of providing width on their own.
  • Notable players who come into this criteria are Leo Junior and Marinho Chagas.
  • The general claim being since their right foot was stronger and they liked to cut in, they can't provide width on their own on the left be it in diamonds or with wide forwards who liked to cut in.
  • I don't know how much folks have seen of these two but I have seen a fair bit and both were capable of running up and down the flanks supporting the attack while not just being limited to cutting inside.
  • I have seen more of Junior and relatively less of Chagas and while Junior's Brazilian outings are well known, its his Flamengo days that showed how good a player he was down the left hand side.
  • Brazil 1982 had GOAT's like Socrates, Zico, Falcao. Good players like Serginho and Eder. And of course Junior was one of them. He was among stars.
  • In Flamengo of the 1980's in their golden era, the best players in the team were Zico, Junior and Leandro. You'd be surprised by how much of the game went through the two wing backs. They were as good as false wing backs playing as deep lying makers. It would be very difficult to find an attack building up but not involving one of Junior and Leandro.
  • And while Junior was always known as the one cutting inside and Leandro the one bombarding forward, its wrong to generalize both. Leandro liked to come inside very often and could be seen roaming all around into the central areas building up attacks. On the other side, Junior was not just about cutting in and spraying passes. He had his fair share of runs down the wings delivering crosses in or stretching the pitch or playing the wingers or wide forwards into dangerous positions.

3. The best attackers. All time greats in an attacking sense but not good enough or if some are to be trusted, absolutely useless in a defensive sense
  • The most common examples of course being Roberto Carlos and Leandro.
  • I will speak in more detail about Leandro in my next post but the general idea being since they were very good attackers, they were very bad defenders.
  • Tactics sometimes go into the bins with these players and their personal acumen when it comes to the art of defending is pointless to bring up.
  • Put them up against a great winger and picking them is as good as suicide.
  • "Can't look beyond Matthews vs Carlos" and "Blokhin vs Leandro is only going to end one way" kind of posts would be the theme of such games with most voters being ruthless with their judgement considering the size of the blunder that apparently has been committed.
  • Its no surprise that Roberto Carlos is not seen as often as he should be in drafts in the last rounds here. (At least I have not seen him as often as the others)
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
THE CURIOUS CASE OF BRAZILIAN FULLBACKS AND REDCAFE DRAFTS - PART 3 - BUSTING MYTHS

Alright, bringing the discussion back to Leandro. Below is where we left things off in Part 1.

His point made a lot of sense to me. Removing Leandro from the RWB position more or less removes the special player tag from him. One who definitely doesn't deserve to be in an all time draft semifinal.

And his post about Leandro's defensive game gave me something more to research for. Maybe I should not chicken out from playing him in his best position just because the voters would think "George Best + Brazilian attacking wingback = Game over."
So it was time to research Leandro. Probably like most others, my usual research for a player I want to play involves the below aspects

1. Checking how people have rated him over time here in the drafts.
2. Checking out some of his full games.
3. Checking out how other greats in the game rated him.

I started off by watching an almost 3 hour long DVD of Leandro's game compilations for Flamengo and Brazil. It pretty much confirmed what I already knew. He was absolutely phenomenal going forward. In an attacking sense, I would put him in the top 2 attacking Brazilian right backs of all time. He was that good. His partnership with Zico was just stuff of dreams. The number of assist he made for him is just brilliant.

Zico in fact put him in his all time Perfect XI which included Sepp Maier, Leandro, Baresi, Passarella, Junior, Socrates, Falcao, Maradona, Platini, Keegan and Rummenigge. Below is what he said about the Leandro choice in his all time team.
A terrific player, who could play with his right or left foot. He was very talented, very intelligent. He’s maybe the least celebrated player in this team but he played in the 1982 World Cup and he was also in the Flamengo team that played Liverpool in the final of the World Club Championships in Tokyo. He had tremendous ability.
In case anyone is interested in watching the DVD, below is the video from youtube.


Then it was time to move on to some full games which would cover the defensive aspect of his game and he was as good as that of most great balanced right backs would be. I watched a few of the big Brazilian games of that time and a few of his games against the likes of the great Liverpool side of the Kenny Era, Platini and Boniek's Juventus, Blokhin and Demyanenko's USSR etc. Sure, he was no Lillian Thuram while defending, but he knew how to tackle, had great recovery pace to run back on counters, read the game quite well, had top notch positioning and marking skills, was not easy to run past and even was a decent header of the ball. When it comes to balanced Brazilian full backs on the right, I would have no problem in putting him up there along with Cafu and Carlos Alberto.


Think I am biased? Read what Carlos Alberto said about him.
The biggest compliment I heard of Leandro's football came from "captain" Carlos Alberto Torres.

It was in a sporting program on Brazilian TV at the end of 2006.

Asked who would have been the best Brazilian right-back in history, Carlos Alberto said that he and Djalma Santos would be on the same level.

The Djalma for his remarkable physical vigor and ruthless marking. And he himself, Carlos Alberto, for his offensive and efficient support.

In conclusion, he stated that Leandro would be at a level much, but much higher than the two, since it met the quality in the marking of Djalma and offensive power of Carlos Alberto himself.

And the captain of Brazil's 3rd WC understands the job of a right back more than most others.

He was one of the greatest in his position, besides being a coach of Leandro for a short period, replacing Paulo César Carpeggiani in Flamengo.

Below is what Brazil's 1982 WC manager Tele Santana said about him.
Leandro has been the best right back I've seen in action in the history of Brazilian football" (note that Telê also saw Djalma Santos and Carlos Alberto Towers)
In fact, just to emphasize more on his defensive game, later on in his career (around 1984-85), he moved to the CB role for both Flamengo and Brazil. He was supposed to start as the CB in the 1986 WC as well but declined to go due to some off the field problem with the team management)

Now coming to how he has been rated in the Redcafe drafts - I have quoted some of the posts made on him to show how wrongly he has been judged over time. I have removed the names of the posters. If you are one of them, please take it in good spirits. Its definitely not a dig at you.

I see Blokhin vs Leandro and can only see one recurring outcome there
I was surprised no one bought this up in the game thread, but Leandro did face not just Blokhin but his attacking wing back partner on the left wing Demyanenko in a game which was not just a friendly but of great importance. Brazil and USSR faced each other in the 1982 WC and Leandro handled that flank pretty well defensively. The game is available on Footballia if anyone wants to watch it. One could see the defensive side of his game pretty well in this game, especially the positioning and reading of the game. Held his own even in 2 on 1 situations with support from others. Brazil won the game 2-1. Anyone who has watched the full game would tell you that most of USSR's were built from the left but were contained pretty well. Although like with any match up with great players, Blokhin had a few decent moments, but there was no recurring theme when it came to the Blokhin/Demyanenko vs Leandro battle. The way Leandro has been dismissed with confidence in the quoted post is the only recurring theme across various draft threads.

I was pissed when Leandro got drafted because he was my backup option for Jorginho and I never expected him to last till the end.
Between Jorginho and Leandro, I'd rate Jorginho higher.
I'm too exhausted to think straight but I'd rate Jorginho more all around and Leandro better attacking but its fairly close I'd say

These quotes are fairly funny because this is what Jorginho said about Leandro -
Leandro was the best, the main reference ... Even though I was World champion, I think I'm a long way from his quality, he's been one of the most skilled players I've ever seen in the world, I saw him do impressive things that nobody has done in the small area, either as a side or center. , strength, knew how to center, kicked with both legs and was a good marker, it was complete.

There were a few other funny ones which were not worth responding to but still worth posting to show the pre decided notion against a player people have definitely not watched a decent amount of.
I don't know but between Maicon and Leandro, I'd rate Kimmich higher.
Leandro was great as an attacking fullback but I always found him quite brainless defensively.

Of course, to be fair, there were also very limited posts with a positive mindset or correct knowledge which are worth posting but they were few and far in between without any further discussions or responses on them.
I'm really surprised how Leandro's perceived on here. Is there some draft game were someone just kept hitting the same note about some particular horror performance, or has this just been a gradually growing consensus? I can't imagine people have seen much of him for Flamengo, and he was generally very good in '82. It's hard to imagine how he could be named the best centre back in the league while also being viewed as a leaky fullback.
Over the years in drafts we've tended to grant the Niltons and Facchettis near-superhero status, and probably sold the better recent FBs (including Leandro for sure) really short in comparison in failing to acknowledge the sheer amount of ground they cover, in addition to how technically accomplished and well-rounded they are
I rate your full-backs highly and Leandro in particular often gets under-estimated for his contribution to the game

Took me a long time to finally decide where and how to play him and its funny again because we are talking about just a 20 mn player in a team with budget of 800 mn. (including reinforcement money)

But at the end, its not vague anymore. I won't have to second guess my formation depending on how the voters would look at him. I know he is perfectly suitable for my team and a very good fit with Ferrara's support against the opponent in question (George Best).

Feels better to break a myth rather than chickening out with a safer formation playing the great Leandro at LWB and defending it like an idiot for 24 hours.

Thanks if you did manage to read all the 3 parts. I appreciate it. (I'd be happy even if a couple of people read the whole thing :lol:)
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
Formatting on mobile is such a pain :lol:

I initially thought Don/Enigma had the stronger team but @GodShaveTheQueen has gone a bit under the radar here.. Your team looks fantastic!
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Formatting on mobile is such a pain :lol:

I initially thought Don/Enigma had the stronger team but @GodShaveTheQueen has gone a bit under the radar here.. Your team looks fantastic!
Well, a tiki taka setup would always look the more shiny one but I think the defensive shape of my team and the counter attacking giants at the top make it an absolutely spot on tactic against Team Dogma.
 

Indnyc

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
4,537
Great read on Leandro @GodShaveTheQueen

Spot on that we do tend to overrate a few players and underrate a few others.. We are of course looking at the cream of the cream so sometimes biasneses does come in to play
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Formation:- 4-3-3 with a false 9. Press the opponent into mistake, possession based, take control of midfield
Style:- Cruyff inspired 4-3-3. Form triangles and employ short, direct passes and look to control proceedings. Look for openings, stretch the opposition defence and a lot of movement in midfield and the front line. We're looking for quick passes using the space, forming triangles, double passes, depth, pausing, rhythm and thus open up the pitch in the attacking third.
Question 1, how on earth does George Best suite such a setup? I thought I should make a big post about this with quotes about his style of play, his selfish game and his teammates getting pissed at him for not passing to them among other things, but if this has to be highlighted on a Man United forum through a detailed post, you might as well close the Caf.

And Cruyff and Best don't work at all IMO. Two great players. Top 10 of all time for sure. But completely opposite players both style of play and team philosophy wise. You add their big egos in there and it becomes a terrible combination. (I am sure people have read about Best trying to prove he was better than Cruyff in a National Team game against the Dutch)

I know saying that about two absolute GOAT's might sound a bit too much, but these two are absolutely poles apart. Was really surprised with this pick from Dogma.
 
Last edited:

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Great read on Leandro @GodShaveTheQueen

Spot on that we do tend to overrate a few players and underrate a few others.. We are of course looking at the cream of the cream so sometimes biasneses does come in to play
Thanks mate. It is a topic begging to be discussed in more detail. If not in a very broad sense here, definitely in a separate thread.
Completely applicable for the Leandro case though.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Question 1, how on earth does George Best suite such a setup? I thought I should make a big post about this quotes about his style of play, his selfish game and his teammates getting pissed at him for not passing to them among other things, but if this has to be highlighted on a Man United forum through a detailed post, you might as well close the Caf.

And Cruyff and Best don't work at all IMO. Two great players. Top 10 of all time for sure. But completely opposite players both style of p[lay and team philosophy wise. You add their big egos in there and it becomes a terrible combination. (I am sure people have read about Best trying to prove he was better than Cruyff in a National Team game against the Dutch)

I know saying that about two absolute GOAT's might sound a bit too much, but these two are absolutely poles apart. Was really surprised with this pick from Dogma.
Being individualistic doesn't mean they can't play together. We've seen at Barca a lot of different wingers in the 4-3-3 and tiki taka and still they dominated the league and Europe.

The key to the team is the midfield core - which is unmatched here and is definitely superior to what the opposition have to offer.

Best would be in his zone here, because Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets are exactly the creative minds behind that would find the gaps and release the ball when needed.

All in all if you have Cruyff and Best as individualistic players (although I'd strongly disagree on Cruyff) we have plenty of selfless players in the team to work for the team.

Best also at his peak pressed the opposition defenders into mistake and his individual qualities would only be amplified by the creative force behind him.


Marvelous player really. :drool:

It's a great post on Leandro and great job compiling it, one of my favorite full backs, but he was mainly an attacking force down the right. In your case I can't see him stopping Best and with him beating Leandro on the right will create numerical advantage which will open plenty of gaps in the middle for our forwards and midfielders to exploit.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Well, a tiki taka setup would always look the more shiny one but I think the defensive shape of my team and the counter attacking giants at the top make it an absolutely spot on tactic against Team Dogma.
To be honest I have the same criticism to your midfield as the previous game, albeit now your midfield is even less shiny without Tigana.

Initially when we sold you Silva I thought you were going 4-3-3 with him as a holder.

Here he has to play a more box to box role which doesn't suit him at all. Especially when you have a libero in behind.

I don't really see your midfield working and with Cruyff in there I can see Baresi impact on that battle very limited.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Being individualistic doesn't mean they can't play together. We've seen at Barca a lot of different wingers in the 4-3-3 and tiki taka and still they dominated the league and Europe.
I didn't expect you to agree with me on this one. I will wait to hear from the neutrals and then take the discussion forward :)

It's a great post on Leandro and great job compiling it, one of my favorite full backs, but he was mainly an attacking force down the right. In your case I can't see him stopping Best and with him beating Leandro on the right will create numerical advantage which will open plenty of gaps in the middle for our forwards and midfielders to exploit.
And there's the generalization again. Did you really read my 'great' post?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
To be honest I have the same criticism to your midfield as the previous game, albeit now your midfield is even less shiny without Tigana.
Yea, I wasn't really going for 'shiny' vote winning players. Was really looking for players best suited to my setup.

Here he has to play a more box to box role which doesn't suit him at all. Especially when you have a libero in behind.
Really? Why does he need to play B2B? I have Bonhof who was an absolute B2B monster, Zico who could pick it up from the midfield, Ronaldo who loved to drop deep and of course the two attacking wing backs.

Where do you get this idea that all 3-5-2 need to have two B2B players?

I agree they need to know how to pass forward but B2B? If you have doubts on his passing game, read your posts from your last game where you were praising him and his role in Super Depor to no ends.

You posted quite a few videos as well about his passing game. Want me to requote them here?
 

Zlatan 7

We've got bush!
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
11,797
Good read, I read it all :) and although I’m new to these here and not researched past drafts I can see where you’re coming from. Nice write up on Leandro aswell, easy to follow.

This match has 2 great trios operating in different areas . Ronaldo, Romario and Zico. Xaviesta and Busquets.

I think dogma looks a cert to control the ball and the midfield, that’s a proven trio. I can see the attack breaking down a lot though, with Cruyff dropping deep (I suppose) to play in these triangles wil the 2 wide men be more central.
GSTQ made a good point I thought about Cruyff and best being different.

I’m loving the front 3 of GSTQ and also that he’s got 2 deeper midfielders and baresi had the back, think he’s going to need these. I have seen baresi being used in a 3 questioned but admittedly that’s something I’m yet to check for myself.

I’d say GSTQ gives up a lot of the ball here and soaks up the pressure to a dysfunctional attack and then gets goals on the break, dogma relying more on the individual magic of best.
GSTQ gets my vote for now.

It can be swayed by arguments once my errors have been pointed out.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
What was Inter's midfield in their win against Barcelona?

You had Motta the DM who could pass, you had Cambiasso the B2B and Sneijder the Number 10 who troubled Busquets all game.

Was that 'shiny' enough for you? It was functional enough for Mourinho.

How is that very different from Mauro Silva, Bonhof and Zico?

 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
I didn't expect you to agree with me on this one. I will wait to hear from the neutrals and then take the discussion forward :)



And there's the generalization again. Did you really read my 'great' post?
I did, but again most of Leandro's fame came from his attacking contribution and in that 82 WC side - where I watched him most - he was the main provider of width on the right which is of course the same here.

However:
1. You will see much less of the ball than Leandro's Brazil or Flamengo
2. Leandro would have a lot of defending to do as he is still your RB for most of the game which will negate his impact going forward.
3. His position and mentality on the pitch was often the same as Dani Alves - as an outside right attacking the space, with him up the pitch we can immediately switch on counter to find Best in space.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Good read, I read it all :) and although I’m new to these here and not researched past drafts I can see where you’re coming from. Nice write up on Leandro aswell, easy to follow.
Cheers mate. Appreciate you reading the whole thing.

I’d say GSTQ gives up a lot of the ball here and soaks up the pressure to a dysfunctional attack and then gets goals on the break, dogma relying more on the individual magic of best.
That would be the major tactic mate, yes.

The arrow on Ronaldo moving leftwards was to take advantage of Alves being caught up when the Barca themed team keep pushing us back with numbers and lose the ball to be hard on counters.

Not too many better than R9 to take advantage of that (Although I know you might be pissed at R9 at this point :) )
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Yea, I wasn't really going for 'shiny' vote winning players. Was really looking for players best suited to my setup.



Really? Why does he need to play B2B? I have Bonhof who was an absolute B2B monster, Zico who could pick it up from the midfield, Ronaldo who loved to drop deep and of course the two attacking wing backs.

Where do you get this idea that all 3-5-2 need to have two B2B players?

I agree they need to know how to pass forward but B2B? If you have doubts on his passing game, read your posts from your last game where you were praising him and his role in Super Depor to no ends.

You posted quite a few videos as well about his passing game. Want me to requote them here?
I was praising him in his role in Super Depor, but that was a holder role - different to the one you have here. I don't see the point having a holder with 5 man defensive unit and libero in behind. Mauro Silva will be excellent in retaining possession as I've noted but here he's not in the same role and I think you can agree on.

Bonhof is one of those players that gets a free pass in drafts due to his versatility but I don't see him being a decisive figure in a midfield battle against Xaviesta and Busquets behind. Zico's role would also be marginal in defending as it is not what he usually did - neither for Flamengo or for the NT.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
What was Inter's midfield in their win against Barcelona?

You had Motta the DM who could pass, you had Cambiasso the B2B and Sneijder the Number 10 who troubled Busquets all game.

Was that 'shiny' enough for you? It was functional enough for Mourinho.

How is that very different from Mauro Silva, Bonhof and Zico?

There is a huge difference.

Figueroa and Chumpitaz are colossal figures and much much more elite level compared to Yaya in CB position and Pique. Obviously you have improvements here and there, but our CB pair is probably the best there is to sniff out the Ro-Ro danger.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
I did, but again most of Leandro's fame came from his attacking contribution and in that 82 WC side
You are just making my points for me mate.

You want to rate him on where his fame came from or how he actually played?

Attacking game will always be more talked about, especially the level of output Leandro gave, but then its this same generalization of them not being good defenders just because they were good attackers that keeps coming up draft after draft, fullback after fullback.

1. You will see much less of the ball than Leandro's Brazil or Flamengo
How does that matter? I have already given enough info on how defensively capable he was.

Leandro would have a lot of defending to do as he is still your RB for most of the game which will negate his impact going forward
What non sense. After winning the ball, what do you expect him to do? Stay back? Or do you think he will be the only one winning the ball back?
And no he is not by RB, he is my RWB. The whole idea behind a wing back is to contribute at both ends.
Whether they are capable or not is another point. Or to correct that, whether you will respect his defensive game or go generalizing is another point.

His position and mentality on the pitch was often the same as Dani Alves - as an outside right attacking the space, with him up the pitch we can immediately switch on counter to find Best in space
Oh good, keep generalizing.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
I was praising him in his role in Super Depor, but that was a holder role - different to the one you have here
You ourselves gave him the B2B role, I didn't. FFS, I don't even think you need 2 B2B's in a 3-5-2 :lol:
That is your draft mode of analyzing games, no how real football works.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
There is a huge difference.

Figueroa and Chumpitaz are colossal figures and much much more elite level compared to Yaya in CB position and Pique. Obviously you have improvements here and there, but our CB pair is probably the best there is to sniff out the Ro-Ro danger.
We are talking about midfields and their suitability. Why do Figueroa and Chumpitaz and Ronaldo and Romario matter in this discussion?

You said my midfield was not shiny enough and I gave you an answer.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Good read, I read it all :) and although I’m new to these here and not researched past drafts I can see where you’re coming from. Nice write up on Leandro aswell, easy to follow.

This match has 2 great trios operating in different areas . Ronaldo, Romario and Zico. Xaviesta and Busquets.

I think dogma looks a cert to control the ball and the midfield, that’s a proven trio. I can see the attack breaking down a lot though, with Cruyff dropping deep (I suppose) to play in these triangles wil the 2 wide men be more central.
GSTQ made a good point I thought about Cruyff and best being different.

I’m loving the front 3 of GSTQ and also that he’s got 2 deeper midfielders and baresi had the back, think he’s going to need these. I have seen baresi being used in a 3 questioned but admittedly that’s something I’m yet to check for myself.

I’d say GSTQ gives up a lot of the ball here and soaks up the pressure to a dysfunctional attack and then gets goals on the break, dogma relying more on the individual magic of best.
GSTQ gets my vote for now.

It can be swayed by arguments once my errors have been pointed out.
I think calling our attack dysfunctional is tad too far mate. Bonhof and Mauro Silva is what you are looking at in terms of dysfunctional fit in 5-3-2 midfield, especially considering they will get little help from Zico.

You tend to fall with what has been recently in terms of some of the best players not being able to work in drafts, which IMO is a nonsense. Usually those best players adapt to certain systems and I can see no reason why Best wouldn't adapt to ours. Our setup is highly technical one which would suit Best, and the creative force will create a lot of openings in behind for him, which again tends to be underrated, just because he seems to be individualistic.

A much inferior player in Neymar was tearing it up, despite all the baggage he came up and Best, alongside Garrincha is the best wide player in history.

Just because the tactic of sitting back and soaking pressure looks easy on the eye doesn't mean it is a successful one. All teams played like that against Barca/Spain in their heyday and very few times they lost.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
You are just making my points for me mate.

You want to rate him on where his fame came from or how he actually played?

Attacking game will always be more talked about, especially the level of output Leandro gave, but then its this same generalization of them not being good defenders just because they were good attackers that keeps coming up draft after draft, fullback after fullback.



How does that matter? I have already given enough info on how defensively capable he was.



What non sense. After winning the ball, what do you expect him to do? Stay back? Or do you think he will be the only one winning the ball back?
And no he is not by RB, he is my RWB. The whole idea behind a wing back is to contribute at both ends.
Whether they are capable or not is another point. Or to correct that, whether you will respect his defensive game or go generalizing is another point.



Oh good, keep generalizing.
I've watched Leandro - we've picked him, so it's not like he's some unknown player to me in the way you are trying to invalidate my point mate.

You already conceded possession, and you will be defending most of the time, hence he will most likely be your RB in the defensive phase. If not correct me.

Again it's a great work compiling those quotes, but they are still personal opinions and Leandro was always known for his offensive contribution.

In the past you asked about video evidence in terms of evaluating certain players. I'd love to see his great defensive game you are describing backed with game compilations.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Bonhof and Mauro Silva is what you are looking at in terms of dysfunctional fit in 5-3-2 midfield,
Fecks sake, anyone who doesn't draft anything below Matthaus/Davids/Rijkaard/Falcao/Xavi/Iniesta at this stage should be called dysfunctional fits now :lol:

What do the neutrals think? Not shiny enough, so not good enough or not correct tactically?
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
You ourselves gave him the B2B role, I didn't. FFS, I don't even think you need 2 B2B's in a 3-5-2 :lol:
That is your draft mode of analyzing games, no how real football works.
Because it is what it is. In a 5-3-2 more often than not your CM will have to contribute in both phases so that your attack isn't separated by the defensive unit. That means dropping to get the ball, moving with the ball forward, carrying the ball.

If Bonhof is the only one to do so or you expect to hoof it from deep it would be pretty easy to defend against.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
I've watched Leandro - we've picked him, so it's not like he's some unknown player to me in the way you are trying to invalidate my point mate.
Oh, he's definitely not unknown to you.

He is that great attacking Brazilian RB who can't defend and should be ideally used in draft setups with no less than Thuram covering for him and Seedorf helping him on the right hand side from midfield.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
We are talking about midfields and their suitability. Why do Figueroa and Chumpitaz and Ronaldo and Romario matter in this discussion?

You said my midfield was not shiny enough and I gave you an answer.
Because CB's matter a lot when you play a possession unit. They give you the base and solidity at the back. Having Figueroa and Chumpitaz sniff out danger makes the midfield a lot more comfortable in their role compared to Pique and Yaya.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Oh, he's definitely not unknown to you.

He is that great attacking Brazilian RB who can't defend and should be ideally used in draft setups with no less than Thuram covering for him and Seedorf helping him on the right hand side from midfield.
If you say so... ;)

Again your personal opinion as mine and it's natural to praise him to the ceiling in order to win the game. :)

I'm not talking about his defensive skills purely based on the fact he's Brazilian - that's nonsense and you are the one generalizing now.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Because it is what it is. In a 5-3-2 more often than not your CM will have to contribute in both phases so that your attack isn't separated by the defensive unit. That means dropping to get the ball, moving with the ball forward, carrying the ball.
There you go. Will requote this every time you blow the same nonsensical trumpet

Yea, I wasn't really going for 'shiny' vote winning players. Was really looking for players best suited to my setup.



Really? Why does he need to play B2B? I have Bonhof who was an absolute B2B monster, Zico who could pick it up from the midfield, Ronaldo who loved to drop deep and of course the two attacking wing backs.

Where do you get this idea that all 3-5-2 need to have two B2B players?

I agree they need to know how to pass forward but B2B? If you have doubts on his passing game, read your posts from your last game where you were praising him and his role in Super Depor to no ends.

You posted quite a few videos as well about his passing game. Want me to requote them here?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
If you say so... ;)

Again your personal opinion as mine and it's natural to praise him to the ceiling in order to win the game. :)
Praise him to the ceiling huh? Again, did you even read my post?

Sure, he was no Lillian Thuram while defending, but he knew how to tackle, had great recovery pace to run back on counters, read the game quite well, had top notch positioning and marking skills, was not easy to run past and even was a decent header of the ball.
Although like with any match up with great players, Blokhin had a few decent moments
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
There you go. Will requote this every time you blow the same nonsensical trumpet
So your plan is everyone in your attacking unit to drop deep and carry the ball just because you picked up someone in CM who isn't suited to doing so. How is that really functional set up?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Because CB's matter a lot when you play a possession unit. They give you the base and solidity at the back. Having Figueroa and Chumpitaz sniff out danger makes the midfield a lot more comfortable in their role compared to Pique and Yaya.
We were talking about my midfield and not yours. Do you Xavi and Iniesta mentioned anywhere in the discussion? Meh, chuck this point., its obviously gone wayward.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Praise him to the ceiling huh? Again, did you even read my post?
Comparing Best to Blokhin is completely useless - both couldn't be different players.

Just because one knows how to tackle, doesn't mean that he won't get rinsed by some of the best attackers in the game. You do agree with that?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
So your plan is everyone in your attacking unit to drop deep and carry the ball just because you picked up someone in CM who isn't suited to doing so. How is that really functional set up?
There you go. Will requote this every time you blow the same nonsensical trumpet

Yea, I wasn't really going for 'shiny' vote winning players. Was really looking for players best suited to my setup.



Really? Why does he need to play B2B? I have Bonhof who was an absolute B2B monster, Zico who could pick it up from the midfield, Ronaldo who loved to drop deep and of course the two attacking wing backs.

Where do you get this idea that all 3-5-2 need to have two B2B players?

I agree they need to know how to pass forward but B2B? If you have doubts on his passing game, read your posts from your last game where you were praising him and his role in Super Depor to no ends.

You posted quite a few videos as well about his passing game. Want me to requote them here?
 

GodShaveTheQueen

We mean it man, we love our queen!
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
6,434
Comparing Best to Blokhin is completely useless - both couldn't be different players.

Just because one knows how to tackle, doesn't mean that he won't get rinsed by some of the best attackers in the game. You do agree with that?
Again, did you read the post? Where do you see me comparing Blokhin to Best?

Boy, you are good at pulling stuff out of thin air to make your opposition sound stupid at all costs. Good job with that.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
We were talking about my midfield and not yours. Do you Xavi and Iniesta mentioned anywhere in the discussion? Meh, chuck this point., its obviously gone wayward.
Have you read my post? The CB pair makes a world of difference to any CM unit or opposition. Just watch our games from last season to see our cowardly approach because Jose couldn't trust his CB's..

If you think they don't matter in possession based unit I have really nothing to say..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.