UNO Draft Final: MJJ vs Skizzo

Who will win the match based on all the players at their peaks?


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    22
  • Poll closed .

MJJ

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I didn’t think I had a chance until that last reinforcement round :lol: luck of the cards. Especially picking three left backs throughout the draft.

Still time left though :)
Nah with two hours left I think its pretty much over. :lol: the last draft I won, I drafted three left backs as well.
 

MJJ

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Hm, it's kind of the same argument that has happened before - I still see a conflation of offensive and defensive phase there. Why should wingbacks mark the oppo's wingers while their own team is in possession? Especially when there are several CBs/CMs (plus possibly the opposite side wingback) to choose from when it comes to keeping an eye on vacated spaces.

As I understand it, all of this only matters during defensive transition, immediately after your team wins the ball & with one or boths WBs up high. But I'd simply expect any decent team to maintain an attacking shape that allows them to intervene after losing possession (pressurizing the ball winner, covering immediate counter threats, slowing down the counter until the rest of the team can get back into defensive shape).

Your team also must defend first of all, so you have to use your wing players deep to help limiting space, especially when the oppo's wingbacks push up. The argument really goes both ways. If you commit too many players to stay up high for a potential counter, your defense is too open. If you don't, the opposition may well have enough players behind the ball, and time to react in defensive transition.


Agree that this would be the way go - I'm not arguing this isn't a threat. I just don't see that unsolvable catch-22 type of situation.


I didn't watch that particular game, but I'd expect that to happen when one team gets utterly dominated and pinned back. Which I wouldn't really expect from this match up.
Okay might as well give it one last go. Fair enough I will withdraw that point, as for my team I would want jairzinho to stay up to draw out the defender which will then cause gentile to go out wide. I also don't think Sammer alone can contain pele and skizzo's team has a lot of burden on redondo to create or cross it in for which Desailly Scirea are the perfect duo.
 

MJJ

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WAS PELE THE MOST COMPLETE ATTACKER OF ALL TIME?



How does one determine what makes a player complete? or in this instance an attacker complete?

In the overall sense, one would easily make reference to someone like Di Stefano who was able to participate in the defensive phase of the game in addition to the build up (midfield) phase and the attacking phase but when limiting it to the question of the most dangerous and complete operator in the final third.. it becomes tougher - which players could claim to have mastered the following arts or possess the following attributes:

  • Long-range shooting (curl, power)
  • Long-range passing (spreading play, crossing)
  • Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)
  • Heading
  • Set-Pieces
  • Controlling the build up (control of tempo)
  • Killer passes in the final third
  • Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)
  • Dribbling (body feints, tricks)
  • First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)
  • Movement off the ball/Timing of runs
  • Pace, Power and Agility
  • Ambidextrous

Shortlist for most complete attacker:

  1. Messi
  2. C. Ronaldo
  3. R9
  4. Cruyff
  5. Pele
  6. Van Basten
  7. Di Stefano
  8. Zico
  9. Maradona
  10. Puskas
  11. Eusebio
So a rough shortlist of some very complete forwards (included Zico, because on closer inspection - seems to be an incredibly complete player who was not your typical 10 but a super productive forward in equal measure). Now grading these players 1-10 at each attribute is a very subjective exercise, so to avoid that.. I will just discuss if certain players were able/unable to demonstrate mastery of a particular ability and compare how many areas of attack this list of footballers could master.

Long-range shooting

Now, alot of players on that list have obviously scored a range of long-distance goals but I would argue R9, Cruyff, Van Basten can instantly be ruled out as evidence of their long-range prowess isn't as pronounced as the others. Some like Zico who clearly had great set piece ability and could score from range tended to choose not to and majority of his goals result from dribbles into box/being a fox in the box.. so for me from open play Eusebio, Messi stand out.. with the former having a cannon of shot off either foot and Cristiano is also a great threat from range (though his efficiency is questionable). Pele for me is right up there, and I'd have him just behind Messi and alongside Eusebio. Lets not forget his attempt from the halfway line too.



Long-range passing (spreading play,crossing)

An area for me where Pele falls short. His style of play just didn't incorporate long range passing/crossing, as he preferred shorter passes for quick-fired combination play. In this category, Messi, Maradona, Zico reign supreme though crossing wise - for the outside of the foot, I'd probably give it to Cruyff and CR7 is underrated in this respect too.

Press resistance/possession play under pressure (decision-making)

Whilst you'd expect all of these footballers to be A* at this, for me R9, CR7 and Eusebio fall slightly short here. Sort of footballers who were prone to losing the ball under pressure due to the high octane nature of their game and the sheer directness of their play. The rest are as gold standard as it gets, supremely intelligent footballers under pressure.

Heading

Cristiano, Van Basten are real stand outs from this list and everyone else falls short (though Messi makes a decent fist of it to be fair) but Pele absolutely matches them in this regard and is recognised as one of the GOAT headers in the game, some brazillians would argue the greatest leap ever.





Set-Pieces

Now Zico stands out as probably the best of all time, but in terms of ruling players out.. R9, Van basten can certainly be as they're not renowned for free-kick brilliance. Pele is criminally underrated for his set-piece prowess. He is 5th on all time list of set-pieces scored (70+ free-kicks scored during his career) Whilst he didn't possess the sublime grace of a Zico in this regard, he was a threat from a variety of ranges due to his sheer power and accuracy.. mastering the lace knuckleball technique 50 years ago..but also capable of the more deft 'falling-leaf' technique from closer range too.


Controlling the build up (control of tempo)

Whilst I wouldn't place Pele at the top of the list in this regard alongside the likes of Maradona/Di Stefano/Cruyff, he definitely had the ability to control a tempo of a game and was a ball-magnet. He had a playmakers mindset in the final third, in contrast to CR7, R9 and knew when to accelerate or slow a game down in the final third which kept opponents guessing as to when he'd go for the kill.


Killer passes in the final third

Pele was an absolute master in this regard.. Jairzinho goal in 1970 as well as Carlos Alberto goal in the final. Two iconic assists in the same tournament which have stood the test of time and they were just the tip of the iceberg. Once again the same culprits probably come up short, CR7 for example is very average IMO when it comes to killer passes. Whilst this is a highly contested category, for me Pele has the perfect blend of insane imagination, flair technique and efficiency of execution to reign supreme in this category.


Finishing (bicycle kicks, lobs, volleys, chips, megs, standard)



Now that is just one aspect of finishing, but it is fair to say with a reputed 1000 goals to his name.. Pele has to go down as one of if not the most versatile finisher of all time. I'd have him alongside Zico, Van Basten and Messi as my favourite finishers in that list of players.. any situation in the box, they have all the tricks in the locker to make the ball land in the back of the net.. But the first two and Pele - could also do it with either foot effortlessly.

Dribbling (body feints, tricks)

In football you tend to get guys who either excel at the classical lace dribbling, with slaloming runs and use of body swerves to weave through opponents or you get guys who are the 5* skill masters and like to embarrass and confuse opponents with their street skills. Very rarely do you find a guy who possesses a blend of both.. Dinho in his prime perhaps, Maradona to an extent but for me Pele in his prime combined all the best attributes you want as a dribbler.. both simple, yet superfluous and entertaining in equal measure. He could body swerve with the best, yet he was a pioneer in bringing street skills.. that Brazilian magic to the big stage.


First touch/Hold up play (flick ons, chest, one touch play)

Now this is where guys like Cruyff, Pele, Eusebio and Di Stefano distinguish themselves from Messi, Maradona and Zico. They could hold the ball up as good as your best strikers, and play with a man up behind them as well as win tough physical encounters by outmuscling opponents not just out-thinking them. For example, the way Messi regularly got snuffed out by sides like Chelsea.. I can't see that happening to Pele, who eventually proved he could dominate a physical defensive side for example Italy in 1970. His first touch was simply sublime and allied to his athleticism made him virtually unstoppable at times.


Movement off the ball/Timing of runs

We have recently seen from CR7 just how important this attribute is. He is a GOAT footballer in this regard. For me Pele's performances in the 1970 World Cup were reminiscent of recent Cristiano performances, in that he knew his body wasn't the powerhouse it once was but through his sheer ability to read the attacking third, and the ability to time runs and pick up space.. he was an incredible goal threat. The way he times this run and makes the goalkeeper look silly.. iconic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UzRsvCsC4c

Pace, Power and Agility

The original Ronaldo is probably the greatest force of nature the game has ever seen, and the two portuguese powerhouses Ronaldo and Eusebio were also fine physical specimens.. but Pele is right up there and IMO with his superior sense of balance/agility, arguably eclipses all of them as the perfect footballing specimen from a physical perspective. That is what gave him that God-like quality which transcends the likes of Messi/Maradona.. they seem like demi-gods, the most gifted humans ever due to their diminutive stature and mortal nature, whereas Pele is truly divine in that sense. He just seems to have it all.



Ambidextrous

Messi, Maradona, Puskas and probably Cruyff (who had a penchant for preferring the outside of the foot) probably fall short when compared to the others in this regard. Pele dare I say it, is arguably one of the most ambidextrous player in history, he has zero hesitation in unleashing shots with his weaker foot (bit like Cristiano) which is incredible considering he's from the 60's. He was like Bobby Charlton in this respect and even in his other videos, he doesn't hesitate to play killer passes with the weaker foot either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGiLXL0RmRY

SUMMARY

I'd say long range passing aside, Pele pretty much nails every other aspect of being an elite attacker. I wish I'd seen more of Di Stefano in his physical prime to see if he can also be a real competitor, I'd say Messi is an outstanding challenger despite his physical deficiencies and lack of a top tier right foot but O Rei do Futebol is truly the indisputed king for me.

In case anyone missed this from the last match.
 

MJJ

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Baggio turning Baresi inside out and winning a penalty, imagine what he’d do to Desailly :p
That kind of proves my point though, look how he uses his right foot there. If he tries that against desailly he will be running into djalma santos not towards goal.
 

MJJ

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I think one area of weakness is gentile, with rivelino and brietner I can drag gentile out a bit wider and as sammer is moving up to meet pele it will leave spaces in the back which maldini alone can not defend.
 

MJJ

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One aspect which I feel has been overlooked is freekicks. I have three excellent dribblers in Pele, Rivelino and Jairzinho which will naturally lead to free kick opportunities near the goal as well disturbing the shape of skizzo's defense. Who better than Pele, Rivilino and Batistuta to decide a tight game from the spot? :drool:

 

harms

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Who better than Pele, Rivilino and Batistuta to decide a tight game from the spot? :drool:
Baggio and Ronaldinho probably have something to say about that
 

Skizzo

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Yeah, I’m counting this one as my victory :wenger:

Absolutely loved that Ronaldinho-Law-Robben attack though
Those three had a great balance to them.

I was in two minds about whether to use Boniek instead of Baggio to avoid some of the criticism that came in regards to Baggio/Ronaldinho both preferring those left channels.
 

Isotope

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Congrats @Skizzo. First time Baggio win the Draft? Love him as a player. Playmaking, scoring, superb dribbling, a charismatic talisman. He has them all.
 

Enigma_87

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Congrats @Skizzo ! Great drafting and really liked how the team developed.

Commiserations @MJJ the last rows really put you in tough position against a brilliant Skizzo side.
 

Skizzo

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Yeah, well played.

Should have started Grobellar. Probably safer in terms of the amount of videos people can dig to shit on him. :D
I think Friedel was the better choice personally. I’d already found the video from Liverpool vs Spartak where he rushed out, miskicked it right to an attacker and gave a goal, and then later on rushed out again and got a red card.
 

Moby

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I think Friedel was the better choice personally. I’d already found the video from Liverpool vs Spartak where he rushed out, miskicked it right to an attacker and gave a goal, and then later on rushed out again and got a red card.
:lol: ffs. You deserve to win.