B2B Draft QF: MJJ vs Willhse

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

........................................... TEAM MJJ ............................................................................................... TEAM WILLHSE ........................................



TEAM MJJ

Formation:- 4-2-3-1
Style: German Machine dances to the samba beat.

Why I will win:-

• How to build a perfect football team? Get a german spine with brazilian attackers.
• My wide players will destroy wills sheffied united formation which hasn't been tested at the highest level.

TEAM WILLHSE

Woah wtf Will has only got one central defender, wtf is going on?!?!”

“Will has lost his mind, this (insert bland 442/433/traditional 352 formation) team will beat this crazily attacking team easily”

That is where you’re wrong you see. I come before you today with a tactic never seen before (to my knowledge) on this draft forum. This will revolutionise draft for the foreseeable future. I present to you Chris Wilder’s 3-5-2 with overlapping centre-backs, yes you heard that correctly.

Video explaining the formation and tactics very well:

https://www.footballdna.co.uk/featu...pOjhzkO61QTxzpKS3tEBnuRpDmw0Z9QfEBVHS3l1lt6b4

“Essentially, we try to pen opposition teams in with controlled possession in their final third, at which point one of our wide centre-backs bombs on to create an overload. It sounds like it shouldn’t work, but it does – we’ve got a lot of goals from it as teams really struggle to adapt to the “organised chaos” that we try and create.” (Ben Meakin, BladesPod)

Defensively, When out of possession, the 3-5-2 can become a 5-3-2 or indeed a 5-4-1, with Rooney pulling wide.

An ode to Chris Wilder:

1) The most important thing about this formation is to have a mix of hard working players that are also good on the ball.

2) This formation relies heavily on crossing, so I have picked some of the best crossers that we have ever seen, including the best ever in Beckham, who suits this formation perfectly. Rooney was great in the air, and Ronaldo was obviously a brilliant all-round striker

3) This tactic creates an overload that is not seen in conventional tactics. There are 7 players involved in the attacking phase. Usually only 6 are involved in conventional 433’s, meaning that teams are not used to defending against this many players.

4) The most important players in this system are: the two wide centrebacks, the two defensive midfielders, and the central defender.

5) For this game I decided to replace Carlos with Krol to offer a bit more defensive stability against the threat that MJJ poses especially with Garrincha. Carlos moves to left midfield role where he will be expected to bomb up and down that wing offering support to Krol when he needs to, whilst also whipping crosses into the strikers

6) As Krol and Alberto move forward to join the attack, Rijkaard and Voronin step back in to cover the vacated space. It is crucial that both defensive midfielders are good on the ball, whilst also being brilliant defensively, and there is no one better than Rijkaard for this role.

7) The attacking midfielder has a free role, and is expected to be great on the ball, feeding the two strikers, whilst also being able to finish themselves. Socrates was a magician on the ball with incredible vision, and would be perfect in this role feeding Ronaldo and Rooney.

8) This formation has one target man/pure finisher (Ronaldo) partnered by a support striker that drops into midfield on occasion, whilst being clinical in the box (Rooney). Both of these strikers are fantastic in the air, and would thrive on floated crosses into the box.


Some stats from Sheffield Utd’s 2018/19 season

Least goals conceded in the Championship, shows the formation isn’t vulnerable defensively.

78 goals scored in 46 games, 4th highest in the Championship.

No club registered as many shots (80) or goals (25) from within the six yard box.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@MJJ @willhse456 All the best

 

[MJJ]

@willhse456 correct me if I am wrong but Sheffield united play with two wingbacks so the formation is more of a 5-3-2 when defending.

Whereas if you are doign the same and voronin and rijkaard are occupying the LCB/RCB positions, you have nobody in norwoods position who can transition the ball from midfield to attack or even stop zico from dominating the play.

I am not sure how well the tactic is going to play out as both garrincha and ronaldinho are going to draw krol and alberto out wide leaving passarella relatively alone at times.

 

[harms]

Beckenbauer probably has it in him to win this game — I can see some of his runs creating a havoc in will's structure.

I am not sure how well the tactic is going to play out as both garrincha and ronaldinho are going to draw krol and alberto out wide leaving passarella relatively alone at times.

I would think that if both of your wingers are actively attacking, Roberto Carlos and Beckham (at least one of them) would be back already.

 

[MJJ]

Beckenbauer probably has it in him to win this game — I can see some of his runs creating a havoc in will's structure.


I would think that if both of your wingers are actively attacking, Roberto Carlos and Beckham (at least one of them) would be back already.

Based on the write up, I would expect carlos to help out but not be at the back constantly. But will wait for will to clarify it.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I honestly think given space, Garrincha is more likely to cut in, take on the defenders and dribble his way through rather than him pulling the sidebacks wide. He dribbles far far more than he crosses. I think he's likely to take Krol on the inside rather than drag Krol outside. Less so, but still similar case with Ronaldinho. So don't really buy into the 'pulling defenders wide' argument.

 

[MJJ]

I honestly think given space, Garrincha is more likely to cut in, take on the defenders and dribble his way through rather than him pulling the sidebacks wide. He dribbles far far more than he crosses. I think he's likely to take Krol on the inside rather than drag Krol outside. Less so, but still similar case with Ronaldinho. So don't really buy into the 'pulling defenders wide' argument.

He will start from a wide position and cut in right? Krol/ carlos will go out to meet him when he gets the ball not when he is in the middle of his run cutting in as that would be suicide.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

He will start from a wide position and cut in right? Krol/ carlos will go out to meet him when he gets the ball not when he is in the middle of his run cutting in as that would be suicide.

I just rewatched some of his clips. He mostly starts wide and then cuts in as he nears the box. Even when given space outside, he chooses to cut in and dribble. Rarely crosses.

Whereas if you are doign the same and voronin and rijkaard are occupying the LCB/RCB positions

Aren't Rijkaard/Voronin more likely to drop straight back while Krol/CA moves wide?

 

[MJJ]

I just rewatched some of his clips. He mostly starts wide and then cuts in as he nears the box. Even when given space outside, he chooses to cut in and dribble. Rarely crosses.


Aren't Rijkaard/Voronin more likely to drop straight back while Krol/CA moves wide?

Which is what I said in the post you quoted?

 

[willhse456]

Apologies, was out for a few hours so will answer questions now.

 

[willhse456]

I think my formation is perfect to counter @MJJ's. It has clearly worked for Sheffield Utd this year against many different variations of 4231 and 433, shown in my stats at the bottom of the write up. The worry for me is when my team comes up against two strikers, as it's hard to cover for the second striker.

@willhse456 correct me if I am wrong but Sheffield united play with two wingbacks so the formation is more of a 5-3-2 when defending.

This is correct, so in this situation you will have Krol, Passarella and Alberto in those 3 deepest central circles, with Beckham and Carlos out wide. Rijkaard and Voronin will be situated just in front of the central defenders ensuring a lot of men behind the ball in defence, and all very capable defenders. Ronaldinho doesn't hog the wing, and will be looking to inside channels where he will encounter Rijkaard, no one better to stop him really. Garrincha will have Roberto Carlos on him as well as help from Krol. One striker in Seeler is good for me as it allows my team to focus on pressing more dangerous players.

 

[willhse456]

@willhse456 Whereas if you are doign the same and voronin and rijkaard are occupying the LCB/RCB positions, you have nobody in norwoods position who can transition the ball from midfield to attack or even stop zico from dominating the play.

I am not sure how well the tactic is going to play out as both garrincha and ronaldinho are going to draw krol and alberto out wide leaving passarella relatively alone at times.

The first bit is incorrect, as in the defensive phase Rijkaard is in Norwood's position and will be able to transition the ball forward. Rijkaard and Voronin drop into the centre back positions when my team is in the attacking phase. This means your wingers wont be in a position to attack as your team will be on the defence. There are no real speed demons on your side for me to worry about on the counter. Seeler, Ronaldinho and Zico aren't the quickest of players.

For the second point, you won't be able to leave so many players that far forward as you will get overloaded once Krol and Alberto get into crossing positions.

 

[MJJ]

I think my formation is perfect to counter @MJJ's. It has clearly worked for Sheffield Utd this year against many different variations of 4231 and 433, shown in my stats at the bottom of the write up. The worry for me is when my team comes up against two strikers, as it's hard to cover for the second striker.



This is correct, so in this situation you will have Krol, Passarella and Alberto in those 3 deepest central circles, with Beckham and Carlos out wide. Rijkaard and Voronin will be situated just in front of the central defenders ensuring a lot of men behind the ball in defence, and all very capable defenders. Ronaldinho doesn't hog the wing, and will be looking to inside channels where he will encounter Rijkaard, no one better to stop him really. Garrincha will have Roberto Carlos on him as well as help from Krol. One striker in Seeler is good for me as it allows my team to focus on pressing more dangerous players.

Interesting, beckham wasn't the fastest player. Not sure he will be able to get up and down the pitch fast enough to be effective in both attack and defense.

I expect garrincha to roast carlos which means krol will have to cover him a lot. If passarella gives in to his attacking tendencies I do see that left hand side leading to few chances for my side.

Am I correct to assume that Rijkaard and voronin will be sitting quite deep?

 

[willhse456]

I'm not entirely sure how the opposition side will work in defence. Who gives Beckenbauer the freedom to move forward? Beckenbauer surely needs a defensive right back in the mould of Djalma/Thuram, which Zanetti isn't. Don't get me wrong, he's ok defensively but I'm not sure how he'd cope with a roaming Ronaldo. Schweinsteiger definitely can't drop into defence and Breitner would be a bit awkward, so will be interesting to hear how that set up works?

 

[MJJ]

The first bit is incorrect, as in the defensive phase Rijkaard is in Norwood's position and will be able to transition the ball forward. Rijkaard and Voronin drop into the centre back positions when my team is in the attacking phase. This means your wingers wont be in a position to attack as your team will be on the defence. There are no real speed demons on your side for me to worry about on the counter. Seeler, Ronaldinho and Zico aren't the quickest of players.

For the second point, you won't be able to leave so many players that far forward as you will get overloaded once Krol and Alberto get into crossing positions.

Ah my apologies, I misread the tactics a bit.

If rijkaard and voronin are dropping in defense during the attacking phase, you will have nobody in midfield and nobody close to zico? It does seem like I will be able to create an overload in midfield with beckenbaur, zico, breitner and schweinsteiger playing there.

 

[MJJ]

I'm not entirely sure how the opposition side will work in defence. Who gives Beckenbauer the freedom to move forward? Beckenbauer surely needs a defensive right back in the mould of Djalma/Thuram, which Zanetti isn't. Don't get me wrong, he's ok defensively but I'm not sure how he'd cope with a roaming Ronaldo. Schweinsteiger definitely can't drop into defence and Breitner would be a bit awkward, so will be interesting to hear how that set up works?

He is better defensively than any fullback you have? The only one on par with him might be krol who has a lot more responsibilities on his shoulders.

 

[willhse456]

Interesting, beckham wasn't the fastest player. Not sure he will be able to get up and down the pitch fast enough to be effective in both attack and defense.

Beckham isn't tasked with the same responsibility as Carlos. He is assuming his normal right midfielder duties albeit slightly defensively. We know how dangerous his crossing is from deep, he doesn't have to get to the byline to be dangerous. I'll produce a graphic of what the team should look like in attack soon for a better visualisation.

I expect garrincha to roast carlos which means krol will have to cover him a lot. If passarella gives in to his attacking tendencies I do see that left hand side leading to few chances for my side.

Yes, Garrincha is one of the best right wingers of all time, which is why I've added as much defensive stability on that side as possible. Whilst he would be able to roast many defenders individually, it's way harder to roast two defenders, let alone two of the better defenders of all time.

Am I correct to assume that Rijkaard and voronin will be sitting quite deep?

Yes, they will be fairly deep, and won't be expected to contribute much to attack apart from long passes to the outside channels to potentially release Ronaldo/Rooney, or simple passes to Socrates/Carlos/Beckham.

 

[willhse456]

He is better defensively than any fullback you have? The only one on par with him might be krol who has a lot more responsibilities on his shoulders.

Yes but Krol has far more protection against Garrincha in Carlos and Voronin, whilst Zanetti will be fairly exposed against Ronaldo as Schwarzenbeck will have to look after an explosive Rooney.

 

[willhse456]

Beckenbauer probably has it in him to win this game — I can see some of his runs creating a havoc in will's structure.

Don't quite understand this? If he makes runs forward, then who is there to protect against my very dangerous forwards? Schweinsteiger isn't going to drop back into defence and if Zanetti moves centrally then his entire flank is exposed as Garrincha won't be doing much defending. This is against one of the best strikers of all time too.

 

[willhse456]

I just rewatched some of his clips. He mostly starts wide and then cuts in as he nears the box. Even when given space outside, he chooses to cut in and dribble. Rarely crosses.

This is important to note. Both Ronaldinho and Garrincha aren't side hoggers that will cross into Seeler, therefore not using Seeler at his maximum potential. Instead they will be cutting inside to incredibly congested areas, where they won't be as effective.

Aren't Rijkaard/Voronin more likely to drop straight back while Krol/CA moves wide?

Yes, this is correct. It's a very fluid system, and all of these players are very tactically intelligent so it should work.

 

[MJJ]

Yes but Krol has far more protection against Garrincha in Carlos and Voronin, whilst Zanetti will be fairly exposed against Ronaldo as Schwarzenbeck will have to look after an explosive Rooney.

If it's a young Rooney, he might just get sent off.

The amount of protection one has, has nothing to do with his good they are defensively though. Calling zanetti okay defensively is a joke.

 

[MJJ]

Beckham isn't tasked with the same responsibility as Carlos. He is assuming his normal right midfielder duties albeit slightly defensively. We know how dangerous his crossing is from deep, he doesn't have to get to the byline to be dangerous. I'll produce a graphic of what the team should look like in attack soon for a better visualisation.

Yes, Garrincha is one of the best right wingers of all time, which is why I've added as much defensive stability on that side as possible. Whilst he would be able to roast many defenders individually, it's way harder to roast two defenders, let alone two of the better defenders of all time.

Yes, they will be fairly deep, and won't be expected to contribute much to attack apart from long passes to the outside channels to potentially release Ronaldo/Rooney, or simple passes to Socrates/Carlos/Beckham.

So in attack you will only have Socrates-Ronaldo-Rooney against my back four and midfielders with carlos maybe adding a fourth option? I don't think that will be enough to score here if beckham is staying deep as well.

The point with garrincha is that if he beats carlos, it will lead to krol moving towards him and away from the centre. This then leaves seeler alone against passarella, a match up which is in my favour.

If they are faily deep and not contributing to the attack then there is nobody to stop me from building attacks from the deep? As schweign and breitner will have free run of the midfield?

 

[MJJ]

Some stats from Sheffield Utd’s 2018/19 season

Least goals conceded in the Championship, shows the formation isn’t vulnerable defensively.

78 goals scored in 46 games, 4th highest in the Championship.

No club registered as many shots (80) or goals (25) from within the six yard box.


For all the plaudits, it is important to note that they finished five points behind a poor Norwich City and have the same goals conceded as a worse middlesborough side.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The point with garrincha is that if he beats carlos, it will lead to krol moving towards him and away from the centre. This then leaves seeler alone against passarella, a match up which is in my favour.

I havent followed the whole train of thought till this point, but Passarella is one of the ideal CB's to deal with Seeler.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

This is important to note. Both Ronaldinho and Garrincha aren't side hoggers that will cross into Seeler, therefore not using Seeler at his maximum potential. Instead they will be cutting inside to incredibly congested areas, where they won't be as effective.

Seeler of course wasn't Peter Crouch. Scored tonnes of goals in tonnes of ways, not just heading.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think MJJ wins this 6/10 times but I simply cant vote against that team from Will. How beautiful is that after the upgrades. I am calling this a draw.

 

[MJJ]

I havent followed the whole train of thought till this point, but Passarella is one of the ideal CB's to deal with Seeler.

True, I was being a bit harsh after will called zanetti "ok defensively". Although I am not sure you want somebody with his libero tendencies in a formation which counts on the left and right fullbacks joining the attack.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

True, I was being a bit harsh after will called zanetti "ok defensively". Although I am not sure you want somebody with his libero tendencies in a formation which counts on the left and right fullbacks joining the attack.

I haven't fully read the write up or thread, but I think Passarella can contain that part of his game if asked for by the manager. He was still a great defender. Great physicality as well which would be needed against Seeler.

 

[willhse456]

Some stats from Sheffield Utd’s 2018/19 season

Least goals conceded in the Championship, shows the formation isn’t vulnerable defensively.

78 goals scored in 46 games, 4th highest in the Championship.

No club registered as many shots (80) or goals (25) from within the six yard box.


For all the plaudits, it is important to note that they finished five points behind a poor Norwich City and have the same goals conceded as a worse middlesborough side.

Right, but it shows that the system is solid defensively, and is also great at creating chances, which is the most important thing. The quality of the sides is relative because I'm not starting Chris Basham and Norwood in my team.

 

[MJJ]

Right, but it shows that the system is solid defensively, and is also great at creating chances, which is the most important thing. The quality of the sides is relative because I'm not starting Chris Basham and Norwood in my team.

The quality of the opposition is relative too? Or do you think garrincha, zico, ronaldinho are playing in league 1?

The system is untested and given they finished behind Norwich, not sure how good it is.

You have no midfield, your attack is heavily reliant on carlos to take the ball up and beckham to cross it in( against a world class centre back duo).

 

[crappycraperson]

No idea how MJJ is losing this. I must be completely out of touch with these draft games now

 

[willhse456]

This is what the formation would look like in attack on the right hand side (important to remember that both centre backs don't overlap at once).



I don't see how your defensive side adequately covers my threat. The two defensive midfielders will need to pull out wide to stop the deep crosses, which leaves Socrates fairly exposed. Garrincha and Ronaldinho are not really wingers that contribute to defence, so I haven't mentioned them. Zico is a similar level of defensive ability as Socrates, and I'm not expecting Socrates to drop back to defend, so I expect the same of Zico.

It's quite hard to show how my team would move in transition as I'm not clever enough with computers Just trying hard to put my vision into words!

 

[MJJ]

No idea how MJJ is losing this. I must be completely out of touch with these draft games now

You and me both

 

[MJJ]

This is what the formation would look like in attack on the right hand side (important to remember that both centre backs don't overlap at once).



I don't see how your defensive side adequately covers my threat. The two defensive midfielders will need to pull out wide to stop the deep crosses, which leaves Socrates fairly exposed. Garrincha and Ronaldinho are not really wingers that contribute to defence, so I haven't mentioned them. Zico is a similar level of defensive ability as Socrates, and I'm not expecting Socrates to drop back to defend, so I expect the same of Zico.

It's quite hard to show how my team would move in transition as I'm not clever enough with computers Just trying hard to put my vision into words!

You just said Rijkaard and voronin are sitting deep? They are near the halfway line there.

Not to mention that's horribly exposed defensively, I just need beckenbauer to pass to whichever winger is free. Either ronaldinho if its alberto or garrincha if its carlos and it's a certain shot at goal.

 

[willhse456]

You just said Rijkaard and voronin are sitting deep? They are near the halfway line there.

Yeah, this would be when I'm attacking, lots of teams these days sit their deepest players close to the halfway line when they're going forward to close space.

Anyway, moving away from the formation graphics as I can see it being confusing, I want to know how you plan on covering for Beckenbauer when he makes his runs forward, as there are two strikers to defend against.

 

[MJJ]

Yeah, this would be when I'm attacking, lots of teams these days sit their deepest players close to the halfway line when they're going forward to close space.

Anyway, moving away from the formation graphics as I can see it being confusing, I want to know how you plan on covering for Beckenbauer when he makes his runs forward, as there are two strikers to defend against.

that's not sitting deep is it? Okay just to confirm, when attacking your defense will be holding a high line with the last defender in the centre circle? Correct?

 

[willhse456]

that's not sitting deep is it? Okay just to confirm, when attacking your defense will be holding a high line with the last defender in the centre circle? Correct?

This is Spurs' defensive line as a reference point, in last seasons Champions League, it's not too different to mine, especially as Madrid actually have the ball in this picture, whilst my picture above would be when one of my players has control of the ball (probably Beckham or Alberto).

 

[MJJ]

This is Spurs' defensive line as a reference point, in last seasons Champions League, it's not too different to mine, especially as Madrid actually have the ball in this picture, whilst my picture above would be when one of my players has control of the ball (probably Beckham or Alberto).

They have five players behind the circle, you have one! Spurs also play a high defensive line whereas according to you your DMs were sitting deep which translates to a deep line.

I mean given where you are holding the line, it's going to be a piece of cake to counter attack. Passrella is literally going to be playing all my attackers onside and who better than beckenbauer to pick them out.

 

[Jim Beam]

This formation relies heavily on crossing, so I have picked some of the best crossers that we have ever seen, including the best ever in Beckham, who suits this formation perfectly. Rooney was great in the air, and Ronaldo was obviously a brilliant all-round striker

@willhse456

In an all-time context Rooney is decent in the air, has one WC season in that regard and that's about it. But, more importantly, not sure why you went for Il Fenomeno when someone like Van Basten was available. You even described him as a target man/pure finisher here. Seems just a bit wasted in this system imo.

Very original concept though, enjoyed reading about it.

 

[Physiocrat]

@willhse456

In an all-time context Rooney is decent in the air, has one WC season in that regard and that's about it. But, more importantly, not sure why you went for Il Fenomeno when someone like Van Basten was available. You even described him as a target man/pure finisher here. Seems just a bit wasted in this system imo.

Very original concept though, enjoyed reading about it.

I agree with the above. MVB on the end of Beckham's crosses would be awesome. As it stands though I think it's very tight. I'm calling it a draw.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@willhse456

In an all-time context Rooney is decent in the air, has one WC season in that regard and that's about it. But, more importantly, not sure why you went for Il Fenomeno when someone like Van Basten was available. You even described him as a target man/pure finisher here. Seems just a bit wasted in this system imo.

Very original concept though, enjoyed reading about it.

Excellent point on MVB. Tough to ignore the allure of Fenomeno for a drafter, but MVB would be much better here.