B2B QF: Sjor/Pat vs Enigma/Theon

Who will win the match?


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Edgar Allan Pillow

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TEAM SJOR/PAT:

Formation: 4-2-3-1

On the Ball:

We've massively ramped up our attacking threat for this match with the additions of new signings George Best and Marco van Basten. Our formation changes to a 4-2-3-1, with van Basten coming in at CF and and Best emphatically addressing any concerns from our previous match about a lack of width on our left wing.

Our crown jewel remains Di Stefano. We've tried to create an ideal environment for him here, surrounded by players who share something of his ferocious workrate and will to win; who have the technical quality to capitalise on his playmaking and in turn create for him; and have the positional versatility and intelligence to fill the spaces as he roams the pitch and controls the match in different areas.

"Di Stefano could play all of the central positions; center forward, second striker, ten, eight, six, central defender, libero. But he played them all simultaneously. As a center forward, he often fell back between the defender in the 3-2-5 to fetch balls directly from his own penalty area and then march forwards. With the ball at his feet, he used his game intelligence to open the game with long-range passes, dodge around spaces and enemy pressing movements with combinations, or simply dribble past one, two, or even three opponents." spielverlagerung.com

“Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest footballer of all time; much better even than Pelé. He was, simultaneously, the anchor on the defensive, the playmaker in midfield and the most dangerous sniper in the attack “ – Helenio Herrera

“The great thing about Di Stéfano was that when he was on your team you had two players at any position” – Miguel Muñoz

Perhaps even more clearly in this match, rather than our previous False 9 set up, he's at the nerve centre of the team, with van Basten as the ultimate focal point CF freeing him of any line-leading requirements and enabling him to shuttle up and down the spine of the team as he sees fit.

Van Basten and Gullit, of course, are one of the great proven partnerships of all-time, and in George Best we've also now obtained the truly elite dribbler that we wanted to complete our attack.

Our quality in possession extends into the deeper areas too. Chilavert is one of the rare all-time great GKs who is credible as a sweeper keeper with his superb left peg. Moore is a top-quality footballing CB, Dani Alves is an elite attacking RB who was equally comfortable on the overlap or underlap, and Zebec is about as positionally versatile as they come. Schuster is one of the great midfield all-rounders, who excelled alongside another of the GOAT playmakers in Maradona.

Off The Ball:

Three time IFHHS Goalkeeper of the Year Jose Chilavert is bulwarked by a complementary and top-tier CB partnership of Moore and Kohler. At RB, Dani Alves has possibly redefined the full back role more than anyone since Facchetti, and at LB Zebec seems the prototypical total footballer, excelling in a range of positions that would make the mighty John O' Shea blush. He was a superb athlete too, and with an 11 second 100m sprint in football boots possesses exceptional raw speed. Ahead of them, Bernd Schuster, in his mid-late career incarnation, and N'Golo Kante, who at the ripe old age of 28 has already established himself as a grafter and ball-winner of the highest order, form the double pivot. They'll have powerhouse support in the defensive phase from our attacking line: Don Alfredo and Gullit were both monsters in this regard, van Basten and Gullit were the first line of Sacchi's demanding pressing system, and Best himself has an overlooked work rate (more on that in the thread).

TEAM ENIGMA/THEON


Formation: 4-3-3 (Fluid)
Defensive line: Balanced
Style: Fluid, Direct, Attacking
Tactics: Tactically we will look to stretch the pitch through world-class wing-play whilst Redondo, Davids and Messi dominate possession in the middle. On the ball we will shift the ball quickly, probing for opportunities to release the explosive offensive abilities within the front three.

Defence:
  • A fantastic unit led by the greatest defender of all time in Franco Baresi - unmatched in his combination of playmaking, ball-winning and defensive reading of the game. Opting for a classing sweeper-stopper combination, his partner Oscar Ruggeri compliments Baresi with his aggression, physicality and aerial ability.

  • At right back we have arguably the greatest defensive right back of all time in Berti Vogts (two time Footballer of the Year in Germany, highest average rating by Kicker in ’73, ’75, ’76, ’77 ahead of the likes of Gerd Muller and Beckenbauer). Similar to Tassotti in style Vogts will tuck in and provide Baresi with the platform to influence the match.

  • At left back we have one of the best attacking left backs in the game - Andreas Brehme, who provides physicality and energy which will be vital both in our attacking game but also be defensively solid to match up against Gullit. In possession Brehme will push forward to support Rivaldo on the left wing and stretch opposition's backline.
Midfield:
  • The pivot of our midfield is Fernando Redondo – the one-man midfield who led Real Madrid to Champions Leagues success in ’98 and ’00. Arguably the most compete midfielder since Matthaus, Redondo will orchestrate play from deep whilst providing defensive solidity and elite-level ball-winning.

  • Bringing balance and unmatched physicality to the side, Edgar Davids compliments the technical style of Redondo/Figo/Messi as the team’s engine-room and ball-winner (who was also excellent in possession – which is often overlooked). His energy on the left of midfield will be vital in containing opposition right flank when Alves goes up.

  • Linking midfield and attack we have Figo and Messi moving through the lines. Our best player and a genuine GOAT contender Messi would be drifting in and out in the area where he can find most space and be more dangerous. Figo with his work rate can also help the midfield and also stretch the outside channel, making space for Messi to slice the opposition defence open either with a final pass or scoring himself.
Attack:
  • On the flanks we have two Ballon D'or winners, beginning with Luis Figo - in his absolute zone here with a defensive right back behind him, providing him the opportunity to stretch the pitch and target Zebec 1 vs 1 with his dribbling and trickery.

  • Through the middle we have Messi who will occupy the area between the lines as most likely Sjor/Pat will have to sacrifice Kante as a sole DM in order to field both their reinforcements. Messi will operate in the zone of least resistance which can amplify his effect on the game and genuinely create a MoTM performance environment.

  • On the left Rivaldo has freedom to drift centrally to impact the game as a goalscorer (averaging 29 goals a season between ’98 and ’01 for Barcelona) and link up with his Brazilian strike partner – an explosive combination filled with creativity, pace and technical quality.

  • Leading the line is Romario – the absolute gold-standard when it comes to clinical #9’s. His burst of pace and movement should pose problems for Moby’s backline, particularly with the quality of service he will receive from Messi, Rivaldo, Figo and Redondo.
Why we have the edge:

1. Balanced unit all over the pitch – We really don't have a weak point. With the inclusion of Brehme our left flank in incredibly balanced in both phases. Davids can cover the outside, whilst Brehme on his own has a very good record against Gullit, who most likely will operate on the right for Sjor/Pat. Sjor/Pat improved their attack immensely, but most likely we have a good chance in exploiting Zebec on the left and also the DM position where it's either Kante on his own or Schuster dropping deep in his late incarnation.

2. Great fit for opposition attackers - Obviously both teams have fantastic strength in attack. Our advantage however is probably in the suitability in both defences when they come against them. You couldn't ask for a better fit than Vogts against Best, whilst Brehme is also one of the best options coming against Gullit - he's not lightweight a is very versatile and agile which would help him cover the threat. Baresi already faced van Basten and came with flying colors. On top of that we have Ruggeri who is fantastic presence in the box when the opposition try to cross it in.

3. Midfield – We genuinely think we have the edge here. We have a perfect mixture of dynamism, skill and ability between Redondo and Davids and also the needed steel to win the midfield battle. On top of that Sjor/Pat don't have holding midfielders with Kante playing as a B2B at his best, van Hanegem in advanced position and with Schuster more of a DLP in the end of his career. We feel that Messi can really use the space between the lines and put a MoTM performance.
 
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2mufc0

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Enigma_87

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Cheers for setting it up @Edgar Allan Pillow ! Good luck @Pat_Mustard and @Šjor Bepo !

Not much time today to comment on but will try to make couple of points.

First of all we feel that Messi could have a monster game here and he's the best player on the park.

Sjor and Pat play without a holder with Kante as the most defensive midfielder in their set up. Older Messi played an excellent 2 games against Kante's Chelsea in 17/18 season scoring three goals in both legs in the CL.

Messi is at his best when he can get the ball in his feet in space and run directly at defenders. In this set up that we're facing he would most likely will have just that.

We expected the opposition to play without a designated DM or holder and even if Kante is tasked to man mark him he will have very tough job on his hands.

We have tasty matchups all over the field but I always like a good reason to post this:


Phenomenal performance from Baresi against Van Basten led Dutch side :drool:
 

Physiocrat

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A quibble on Messi's position. I have always thought that his best position would be as a second-striker (although this is probably due to my dislike of false 9s and love for big proper strikers). To me having Rivaldo left isn't ideal at least as depicted as Rivaldo is further forward than Messi. I would prefer someone who sit a bit deeper on the left to allow Messi to be closer to goal and to Romario.

That said Kante as the deepest and most defensive midfielder is hardly ideal against Messi et al.
 

Enigma_87

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And the other key addition to our team is one of the very best full backs of all time:


His record against Gullit is also impeccable. In 5 games he didn't concede against him and even managed to score in the WC!

 

Enigma_87

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A quibble on Messi's position. I have always thought that his best position would be as a second-striker (although this is probably due to my dislike of false 9s and love for big proper strikers). To me having Rivaldo left isn't ideal at least as depicted as Rivaldo is further forward than Messi. I would prefer someone who sit a bit deeper on the left to allow Messi to be closer to goal and to Romario.

That said Kante as the deepest and most defensive midfielder is hardly ideal against Messi et al.
Just to reiterate. Figo would drop deeper to help the midfield when we're on the backfoot. Messi would definitely be closer to Romario in possession and the main reason why he will be in the exact SS position in possession is because we find that space ideal for him to operate in the current game. We all know that he cuts in from the right when deployed there, but we're looking to exploit the gap between the lines with the opposition sporting a 4-2-3-1.

When we're with the ball definitely Messi will be closer to the goal and close to Romario so that they can combine and open up the defence. Rivaldo is a good foil for him as he loves more the left channel whilst Messi the right.

We have to bear in mind how key the Dani Alves - Messi partnership was and how devastating it was for the opposition with Alves overflowing that flank. In this game we have one of the best wingers in the game in Figo who will additionally stretch the defence on the right and make room for Messi in that exact inside right channel that he loves.

On the other flank Rivaldo will occupy the inside left with Brehme overlapping.

All in all Rivaldo/Messi/Romario has a good synergy in styles without stepping on their toes and they have two wide players on each flank in Brehme and Figo who will keep that shape in attack and allow them to roam in the areas that are dangerous for the opposition and close to goal. One similar trait they have is that they are explosive, magical and quite skillful with the ball - all three of them are on the same wavelength and able to operate in the same fashion.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I would prefer someone who sit a bit deeper on the left to allow Messi to be closer to goal and to Romario
I don't think Messi needs to be closer to goal. He always drops and gets involved in the play.

@Edgar Allan Pillow sharemytactics is having database issues, maybe you can up Sjor/pat tactics on imgur since it's stable and working without issues
Am on a phone. Will do once I get back home...
 

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Can't see Pat's/Sjor team
 

Enigma_87

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I don't think Messi needs to be closer to goal. He always drops and gets involved in the play.
Yeah, that's key. In these all time GOAT-fests we have to maximize both his input and position. He definitely needs to be involved and also at his best and peak form he loved getting the ball into space and turning towards the goal slaloming through defences.The reason why he was also that successful as a false 9 is because he dropped deep to confuse CB's, drag them out of place but also receive the ball without being hacked down on contact and closed down quickly by 2-3 opposition defenders.

He will have the space here between the lines to do his thing.

 

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Jim Beam

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I'm on my phone and Sjor is drunk so can't make an alternative formation pic annoyingly. Will try to respond to some of the points raised when I get a few minutes.
He is a bit like that Edmundo chimp really. Constantly on the booze, hard to control and unable to make simple things. But, somehow you just can't help not to like and keep the fecker.
 

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And the other key addition to our team is one of the very best full backs of all time:


His record against Gullit is also impeccable. In 5 games he didn't concede against him and even managed to score in the WC!

How many of those games gullit was playing RW?
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
He is a bit like that Edmundo chimp really. Constantly on the booze, hard to control and unable to make simple things. But, somehow you just can't help not to like and keep the fecker.
I'm finding it unsettling that I'm the sober one in our partnership these past few days :D

Hosted @Pat_Mustard @Šjor Bepo's formation graphic on imgur.

Also mirrored on postimg (Link) and imgbb (Link).
Thanks very much mate :)
 

Enigma_87

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How many of those games gullit was playing RW?
Gullit is not your traditional RW that will hug the touch line and put a cross in, obviously he was free roaming player, but most of the games he often would drop to that right channel - especially for Netherlands.

In their sole game for Milan vs Inter he played as a wing back right midfielder hybrid of sorts and was definitely on the right flank most of the time. Brehme was also playing a bit like wing back as they had met quite a lot on the pitch.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/2216463

this one I mean.
 
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Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Finally back on my fecking laptop so I'll try to get up to speed here...

Baresi/Ruggeri vs van Basten

2. Great fit for opposition attackers - Obviously both teams have fantastic strength in attack. Our advantage however is probably in the suitability in both defences when they come against them. You couldn't ask for a better fit than Vogts against Best, whilst Brehme is also one of the best options coming against Gullit - he's not lightweight a is very versatile and agile which would help him cover the threat. Baresi already faced van Basten and came with flying colors. On top of that we have Ruggeri who is fantastic presence in the box when the opposition try to cross it in.
Firstly it's worth noting that Baresi oly faced van Basten twice (and in the second match MVB came off after 55 minutes, and both matches were friendlies. To the best of my knowledge they've never faced each other in a competitive match. It's Baresi, so he's an incredible fit against anyone, but that particular head-to-head stat isn't particularly compelling.

Van Basten did come up against Ruggeri in the European Cup, however, and won the tie for Milan against Ruggeri's Real Madrid, assisting Rijkaard's opener with a brilliant cross, winning and converting a penalty, and generally tormenting the opposition defence:


At the other end of the pitch, I've been on the other end of the Bobby Moore vs Romario match up when I played @Brwned last year some time, and I think the consensus was, from myself as well, that Moore is about as good a fit against him in terms of style and quality as anyone. It's Romario, so he can clearly still decide any game on his day, but I couldn't be happier with Moore as one of his direct opponents.
 

Enigma_87

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@Pat_Mustard

surprised a bit that you went with mid to late Schuster here. There are few concerns in that. It's quite common knowledge that Di Stefano didn't mesh particularly well with Didi who was a deeper playmaker at the time (lost few steps). Schuster played as a deep playmaker at that stage of his career as well and game was flowing through him. Something that Di Stefano wouldn't particularly like. Schuster is also quite a character, like Didi, so he won't take bollocking from Di Stefano or put himself aside like Puskas did to accommodate auxiliary role on the pitch.

From what I know of both players early version of Schuster is the better fit here, otherwise you will have a lot of issues based on both of those characters and also in their roles. Di Stefano at his peak dropped a lot to start attacks from deep and get as much of the ball as possible.

He was also a more of a DLP, rather than a double pivot where in the latter role he has to cover a lot of ground.

In a 4-2-3-1 and without man marking duties I guess both of them will be transferring Messi, which works well in our favor considering the space he's likely to get.

I can see the reasoning of course as you wanted to put in another attacker in so you had to sacrifice a midfielder, but in this particular game Messi is a game changer in an area that would probably have less resistance - without being constantly closed down by 2 or 3 players.
 

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Finally back on my fecking laptop so I'll try to get up to speed here...

Baresi/Ruggeri vs van Basten



Firstly it's worth noting that Baresi oly faced van Basten twice (and in the second match MVB came off after 55 minutes, and both matches were friendlies. To the best of my knowledge they've never faced each other in a competitive match. It's Baresi, so he's an incredible fit against anyone, but that particular head-to-head stat isn't particularly compelling.

Van Basten did come up against Ruggeri in the European Cup, however, and won the tie for Milan against Ruggeri's Real Madrid, assisting Rijkaard's opener with a brilliant cross, winning and converting a penalty, and generally tormenting the opposition defence:


At the other end of the pitch, I've been on the other end of the Bobby Moore vs Romario match up when I played @Brwned last year some time, and I think the consensus was, from myself as well, that Moore is about as good a fit against him in terms of style and quality as anyone. It's Romario, so he can clearly still decide any game on his day, but I couldn't be happier with Moore as one of his direct opponents.
Yeah, they were, but I think from the video you can see that both were playing at very high level. Obviously that and the example with Brehme vs Gullit is not something written in stone but highlights the obvious class Baresi had in that game and if you watch his movement and how he sniffed out danger is really at his absolute peak, negating two great forwards in Gullit and Van Basten(again it was just an excuse to post this as it's fascinating to watch him at his peak :drool:).

Obviously on Ruggeri the combination with the best defensive player in the game in Baresi I think we can agree on that is a perfect fit for both Van Basten and also if Gullit decides to attack the box. In essence Ruggeri is one of the best partners for Baresi in this particular game due to his dominance in the air.

On Moore vs Romario.

Romario had quite an unique skillset. I'm not sure of your exchange with Brwned, but Romario had a phenomenal use of his low center of gravity and was one of the most explosive forwards in the game in the first yards. I'm not sure if Moore faced something of that ilk. Obviously he's a great defender and won't look out of place against any forward in the game, but to be honest his main weakness was his pace and Romario can certainly exploit that. He naturally had a great reading of the game able to take the ball out of opposition forwards before the danger came in, but you also have to consider that you are playing without a holder here to sit in front of him like Nobby Stiles did against Eusebio for example covering those few yards where Romario can take the ball on his stride, turn and run at him.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
How many of those games gullit was playing RW?
I'm not sure myself, but he was playing in a central position in the one competitive match he lost against a Brehme team in the 1990 World Cup. Was way off form in that match and still looked the main dangerman for the Dutch:


He was definitely on the RW in the Serie A match, possibly the Euro 92 one as he did seem to play on the RW then from memory. Brehme is probably my favourite LB in the drafting world at the minute, so I have nothing bad to say about him, but here's a Joga-special (I'm going to end up posting at least 3 of his videos in this match :D) that shows him with Brehme as his direct opponent:


Just realised that it was already uploaded as I was searching for a thumbnail pic :lol:. Anyway a barnstorming performance from Gullit from the right midfield position (with Massaro playing in the hole) with his pace and dynamism causing all sorts of problems for the Inter defense.
 

Enigma_87

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True, but having someone who worked a little deeper than Rivaldo would give him entire freedom to go forward or drop deep as he saw fit.
Well Messi had played with Iniesta who would often attack the same space Rivaldo did. He also played with Neymar and Iniesta which pretty much covers the whole zone Rivaldo is likely to operate and he excelled in both occasions.

Messi alongside a player in the inside left or left wing forward - what Rivaldo exactly is - is probably the peak Messi that we have all seen.

It's also important to notice that Messi loved to play with players close around him that are on the same wavelength so that he can play those triangular passes and then with his superior movement to find space behind the defender with one pass.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
@Pat_Mustard

surprised a bit that you went with mid to late Schuster here. There are few concerns in that. It's quite common knowledge that Di Stefano didn't mesh particularly well with Didi who was a deeper playmaker at the time (lost few steps). Schuster played as a deep playmaker at that stage of his career as well and game was flowing through him. Something that Di Stefano wouldn't particularly like. Schuster is also quite a character, like Didi, so he won't take bollocking from Di Stefano or put himself aside like Puskas did to accommodate auxiliary role on the pitch.

From what I know of both players early version of Schuster is the better fit here, otherwise you will have a lot of issues based on both of those characters and also in their roles. Di Stefano at his peak dropped a lot to start attacks from deep and get as much of the ball as possible.

He was also a more of a DLP, rather than a double pivot where in the latter role he has to cover a lot of ground.

In a 4-2-3-1 and without man marking duties I guess both of them will be transferring Messi, which works well in our favor considering the space he's likely to get.

I can see the reasoning of course as you wanted to put in another attacker in so you had to sacrifice a midfielder, but in this particular game Messi is a game changer in an area that would probably have less resistance - without being constantly closed down by 2 or 3 players.
Our midfield was actually next on my list of points to address :D.

Firstly, I'm a bit surprised at your criticism of the basic composition of the midfield as it's so similar to yours - one player sitting more towards the DLP end of the spectrum (Schuster/Redondo), and one highly mobile, world class ball-winner (Davids/Kante). And both partnerships facing a similar GOAT-candidate opponent in the AM position too (Messi/Di Stefano). One clear area of advantage for us and our Schuster/Kante duo is that Di Stefano will offer them far more support than Messi will to Davids/Redondo.

Secondly, on the bolded part, covering ground just wasn't an issue for Schuster. Here's some all-touches videos for neutrals to make their own mind up:


credit @harms


credit @Joga Bonito

Thirdly, we'd have played van Hanegem rather than playing the younger Schuster who rose to prominence as an AM, as we wanted someone who was content to sit in alongside Kante when necessary. Older Schuster is the more proven fit there, although a fun fact is that he was actually ranked by Kicker magazine as the Bundesliga's 5th best stopper in 1979.

Lastly, we just don't have that many concerns over the Schuster/Alfredo dynamic. Schuster was able to play alongside another of the GOAT playmakers in Maradona to great effect. Also, I've been reading Ian Hawkey's excellent biography of Di Stefano and the actual Didi story is a lot more nuanced than generally described. I don't have time to type out the whole thing but I'll quote a bit of it. Basically, Didi's problems weren't reducible to Di Stefano deciding to throw a 'Mean Girls' strop, but included marital strife, homesickness, poor fitness, inability to deal with the climate in winter, and an inability to adapt his style of play.

On the field, it was certainly true that Di Stefano was unimpressed by Didi, by his work-rate, by his failure to adjust to the tempo of Madrid's game. The 'dry leaf' free-kicks and passes were all very well, but he wanted to see the newcomer pulling up trees...Puskas, like Di Stefano, diagnosed Didi's problem as a matter of speed. 'A slow player had no chance in that team,' Puskas said, and beleived that the Brazilian put on weight. 'He was skinny and slight when he arrived and then became fatter and slower'. For Pachin, personal affections aside, Didi was a square peg in a round hole. 'Technically he was exceptional,' recalled Pachin, 'but he thought about the game in a languid way...It didn't work for us. We wanted to play at one hundred miles an hour.'
Basically, neither lack of fitness, nor inability to adapt to life in Spain, nor inability to work hard or play at a higher tempo, will be problems for Schuster.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Well Messi had played with Iniesta who would often attack the same space Rivaldo did. He also played with Neymar and Iniesta which pretty much covers the whole zone Rivaldo is likely to operate and he excelled in both occasions.

Messi alongside a player in the inside left or left wing forward - what Rivaldo exactly is - is probably the peak Messi that we have all seen.

It's also important to notice that Messi loved to play with players close around him that are on the same wavelength so that he can play those triangular passes and then with his superior movement to find space behind the defender with one pass.
Apologies if you've already specified, but which version of Messi are you playing here?
 

Šjor Bepo

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Not in the state to post anything so the plan was to stay in moby mode but this di stefano crap annoys the feck out of me....

Guy was a winner, worked harder then anyone else and was a proper team player yet when you read through every fecking draft game it seems like we picked someone that clashed with dozen of players through his career and not just one! Anyone that watched Didi will realize why they clashed and its not because od Don of that im certain.

Do we call xavi/iniesta problematic because ibra/cesc couldnt fit in, or keane/scholes because of veron?