4-Way v2 - SF: Moby vs PNut

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS


TEAM MOBY:


Key Highlights:

• Two of the greatest strikers of all time, Ronaldo and Romario lead the line, recreating the famous Ro-Ro attack which was absolutely devastating. The two showed incredible chemistry and understanding playing one touch football which was unplayable.
• Ronaldo in his prime physical condition was an unstoppable beast, who could dribble past a whole team with searing pace and score in every way possible. Him playing off Romario who would be playing off the shoulder of opposition CBs would create havoc in this match. It's impossible to mark either of them, and there is far too much of a goal threat to contain.
• The Bayern treble winning wing combo of Ribery and Robben take up the flanks. Ribery's industry and creativity would create a number of chances for the front two, while Robben's direct dribbling will isolate defenders and open up spaces up front.
• Souness and Bonhof provide the midfield platform for the attack to shine. Two absolute powerhouse midfield generals, who played in the biggest of games like CL finals and WC finals in their careers and gave their teams that bite and steel in midfield. Incredibly combative and tenacious players, they would be bringing in tireless energy to constantly win the ball back and start attacks.
• Two energetic fullbacks in Schnellinger and Gerets, who would provide ample support for the wingers in attack and are super solid in defense.
• Complimentary CB duo of Koeman and Vidic, where Koeman plays as the ball playing defender whose delicious passing will kickstart attacks from the back and allow the devastating pace of Ronaldo, Romario and Robben to be unleashed on counters and wreck the opposition.
• Match winning keeper in goal.

TEA PNUT


The plan for this game is to clog the feck out of the midfield and limit the supply to R&R. Makélélé and Kante are pretty much as good as you'll get at doing that.

The rest of the team stays basically untouched, however Tassotti changes over to the left hand side and Sagnol comes in at full back. Tassotti will only be defending so I have no problem with him playing on the opposite side.

It's basically a defending 6, which will allow the front 4 to decide the game on the counter.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Moby @P-Nut All the best!

 

[P-Nut]

@Moby good luck mate

 

[Moby]

@Moby good luck mate

Good luck to you too.

 

[Moby]

The Ro-Ro partnership was short-lived, but they were magical together. In 16 games together, Romário scored 18 goals and Ronaldo scored 14 goals. Football geniuses

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Moby's front 4 is awesome. But his defense might have trouble handling pace of a PNuts counter.

P-Nut pace on counter is also scary, but feel he lacks a player with vision and ability to spring a quick pass in his midfield and defense to spring an effective counter. Makelele/Kante is too workman like.

Tough call this.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Bastard stole my website

 

[P-Nut]

The CR7 - BENZEMA partnership went on for an age, but they were magical together. In 9 years they won 15 trophies, including 4 CLs. Football harmony.

 

[P-Nut]

 

[P-Nut]

Moby's front 4 is awesome. But his defense might have trouble handling pace of a PNuts counter.

P-Nut pace on counter is also scary, but feel he lacks a player with vision and ability to spring a quick pass in his midfield and defense to spring an effective counter. Makelele/Kante is too workman like.

Tough call this.

With the main threat being that front 4 I wanted expert man to man defenders for when Ronaldo drops deeper.

I need players that can limit his 1v1 dribbling from deeper and in Makélélé and Kante you've possibly got 2 of the best at it. They aren't going to physically try and get the upper hand, but rather they've got the agility to stay with him and slow him down.

 

[Moby]

What has made me reluctant at times while fielding a front two at times is how it is not usually acknowledged how much more pressure and responsibility that puts on the opposition midfield to drop deep and help out the defense, so I want to get that out of the way early on.

With a front two of the quality of Romario and Ronaldo, the defensive midfielders will have to constantly drop back and help out the CBs, especially when you have someone like Ronaldo who would run from deep and create havoc with that massive frame coming at you like a freight train. That ends up creating a lot of space in midfield to be exploited and I hope that is taken into consideration here.

In this match, as great as Makelele is, he is a really bad fit for stopping someone like Ronaldo when facing his runs in the final third, due to his lack of pace and mobility. I can see Ronaldo absolutely ripping him apart in 1v1s, and attacking the channels or the gaps between the lines the whole game, putting Romario into great goalscoring opportunities and vice-versa.

Also, I disagree with the tactic in the OP which talks about cutting the service to the front two to stop them. Ronaldo was never a static number 9 who would wait in the box for the service, he is one of the most complete attackers of all time and literally spent his peak years destroying teams by taking out defenders all over the pitch. He will pick the ball up in that huge gap between P-Nut's DMs and front 4 and wreck havoc from there.

 

[Moby]

Coming to my wings, Ribery and Robben is another proven combo that works well together, and Ribery's workrate and industry would be really vital here in terms of adding to the midfield when needed and getting in those quality through balls and crosses to the front three.

Both Ribery and Robben have favourable match ups here against those fullbacks and have enough pace and skill in them to create enough openings. Especially with the support that they will enjoy from the two fullbacks. Especially Gerets overlapping Robben with Cristiano barely offering any help to Tassotti will be a massive advantage for my team.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Robben and Ribbery should swap flanks IMO. Would have won my vote immediately if they started reverse.

 

[Moby]

Another thing I want to highlight is the importance of having someone as great on the ball as Koeman at the back, which in this game stands out even more given the opposition is lacking exactly that. With the kind of attacking force up front, someone being able to bring the ball out of defense cleanly and with composure, and having the ability to pick out attackers in space with accurate passes is invaluable and that would be a huge asset here.

In constrast, the opposition could have done with someone exactly like that. Especially given how disjointed the back 6 and front 4 seem to be, the transition would be a definite issue for them, with no real ball spreading ability at the back.

Cristiano as great as he is relies a lot of the service, and Madrid filled their team with players who would do that with multiple playmakers on the pitch and Marcelo constantly overlapping him. Here he will get no support from Tassotti (as per the OP) and neither of Kante, Makelele, VVD or Costacurta can get the ball to him quickly enough. It's something that works in terms of him not seeing the ball as much as he would like to and curbing his impact on the game.

 

[Moby]

Robben and Ribbery should swap flanks IMO. Would have won my vote immediately if they started reverse.

Would have considered that if P-Nut had an attacking fullback who required to be tracked back. In this case, and even as per the OP itself, Tassotti is strictly going to defend and not contribute anything in attack, so it doesn't give me enough reason to force that change. Gerets is one of the most physically supreme right backs we can possibly have here and has great leadership and tactical intelligence to keep tabs on Cristiano, especially when it comes to cutting the passing lanes to him. Similar to how Lahm used to defend vs him.

Moreover, I really like Gerets overlapping Robben and they make a great duo going forward complimenting each other perfectly, so like I mentioned above, not enough reason for me to break that up.

 

[Jim Beam]

Moby sometimes suffers from "less is more" issue imHo.

This is brilliant.

Robben and Ribbery should swap flanks IMO. Would have won my vote immediately if they started reverse.

You really like switching and changing positions darling.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Would have considered that if P-Nut had an attacking fullback who required to be tracked back. In this case, and even as per the OP itself, Tassotti is strictly going to defend and not contribute anything in attack, so it doesn't give me enough reason to force that change. Gerets is one of the most physically supreme right backs we can possibly have here and has great leadership and tactical intelligence to keep tabs on Cristiano, especially when it comes to cutting the passing lanes to him. Similar to how Lahm used to defend vs him.

Moreover, I really like Gerets overlapping Robben and they make a great duo going forward complimenting each other perfectly, so like I mentioned above, not enough reason for me to break that up.

I don't remember Robben ever playing in a two striker setup from the right. Hardly remember any great in cutting winger enjoying playing in a two striker setup.

From the left, he'd stretch the defense leaving gaps for Ro Ro to exploit. Ribery had a really good 2006 WC as well from the right if memory serves me right.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

You really like switching and changing positions darling

Don't worry, my drafting days are behind me. The commentary job seems much more calming.

 

[Jim Beam]

Don't worry, my drafting days are behind me. The commentary job seems much more calming.

Like Mourinho then.

 

[Moby]

I don't remember Robben ever playing in a two striker setup from the right. Hardly remember any great in cutting winger enjoying playing in a two striker setup.

From the left, he'd stretch the defense leaving gaps for Ro Ro to exploit. Ribery had a really good 2006 WC as well from the right if memory serves me right.

There's no issue with either of them being on opposite flanks, but this setup doesn't warrant it. The treble winning Bayern team had Muller and Mandzukic up top where both of them were mobile and energetic enough to make it work and provide the fluidity which allows wingers to cut onto their stronger feet. My front two (again) are hardly ones who will stay in one position throughout the game. Especially Ronaldo who has a free role here and would be expected to pick up the ball in deeper positions and make those devastating runs towards goal, which gives the wingers enough room to work with. And from actual evidence posted above when Ro-Ro played together, they had insane movement especially vertical movement where one always looked to drop deep and use the other's pace to play him behind the defense.

 

[P-Nut]

Lots to answer here, but I'll start with the most obvious which is the no sweeper argument from Moby. Van Dijk has the passing ability of most ball playing defenders that you'll see, it's just that he's better known for his aerial prowess and his great 1v1 defending. He'll have no problem splitting the midfield to play the ball forward, as you can see below.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don't exactly see Muller as a striker. Not sure if most people do.

Anyways, it's not like it's not workable or a deal breaker, but I'd have set them up the other way around.

 

[P-Nut]

Coming to my wings, Ribery and Robben is another proven combo that works well together, and Ribery's workrate and industry would be really vital here in terms of adding to the midfield when needed and getting in those quality through balls and crosses to the front three.

Both Ribery and Robben have favourable match ups here against those fullbacks and have enough pace and skill in them to create enough openings. Especially with the support that they will enjoy from the two fullbacks. Especially Gerets overlapping Robben with Cristiano barely offering any help to Tassotti will be a massive advantage for my team.

Both are fully capable defensively, Tassotti will be coming inside onto his stronger right foot to defend against Robben who likes to cut in constantly.

Sagnol against Ribery isn't exactly a mismatch either, he's more than capable of going up against him.

The support of your full backs is what I'm relying on, in order to open up that space for counter attacks at blistering speed. Neither of my wingers do you really want to leave up field whilst you bomb down that flank.

 

[P-Nut]

In this match, as great as Makelele is, he is a really bad fit for stopping someone like Ronaldo when facing his runs in the final third, due to his lack of pace and mobility. I can see Ronaldo absolutely ripping him apart in 1v1s, and attacking the channels or the gaps between the lines the whole game, putting Romario into great goalscoring opportunities and vice-versa.

Makélélé is a space marker rather than a man marker that will track Ronaldo when he's on his mazy runs, that role would much more likely be fulfilled by Kante, who is pretty much perfect for the role with his low centre of gravity and undeniable energy.

 

[Moby]

The support of your full backs is what I'm relying on, in order to open up that space for counter attacks at blistering speed. Neither of my wingers do you really want to leave up field whilst you bomb down that flank.

Nah this argument has been dead and buried even in the world of drafts.

 

[P-Nut]

Nah this argument has been dead and buried even in the world of drafts.

Cristiano has relied on it for years, he gives the opposition full back a headache of when to go and when to stay.

How does an overlapping full back not cause more potential for a counter than a defensive one that sits in position?

 

[Moby]

How does an overlapping full back not cause more potential for a counter than a defensive one that sits in position?

There are Madrid vs Bayern games on tape where Lahm did exactly what is expected of Gerets and they weren't getting attacked on counters every second minute.

In a scenario where you had enough ability to start counters at the back, I'd surely be more cautious. But here when your team transitions cannot be lightning quick, I have no issues in trusting Gerets to get back into position when your attacking phase starts. For some reason in drafts the first assumptions is that Gerets will be somewhere near the opposition corner flag and your team will win the ball and in a flash it will be at Cristiano's feet with him 5 yards from my goal. Total fantasy stuff.

On the other hand, Gerets and Robben doing a 2v1 on Tassotti for majority of the game with zero support from Cristiano with the rest of my attacking cast in attendance is basically a free route to goal. Haven't seen anything on how you plan to deal with that and who is supporting Tassotti in that scenario.

 

[P-Nut]

There are Madrid vs Bayern games on tape where Lahm did exactly what is expected of Gerets and they weren't getting attacked on counters every second minute.

In a scenario where you had enough ability to start counters at the back, I'd surely be more cautious. But here when your team transitions cannot be lightning quick, I have no issues in trusting Gerets to get back into position when your attacking phase starts. For some reason in drafts the first assumptions is that Gerets will be somewhere near the opposition corner flag and your team will win the ball and in a flash it will be at Cristiano's feet with him 5 yards from my goal. Total fantasy stuff.

On the other hand, Gerets and Robben doing a 2v1 on Tassotti for majority of the game with zero support from Cristiano with the rest of my attacking cast in attendance is basically a free route to goal. Haven't seen anything on how you plan to deal with that and who is supporting Tassotti in that scenario.

No I'm obviously not going to those extremes at all. I'm simply stating that he's more likely to get caught out of position supporting an attack, than if he was constantly sat deep covering his zone.

It might only happen 2 or 3 times across 90 minutes, but I wouldn't want anyone other than CR to make the most of those moments. And when it's Vidic he'd likely go up against in those breakaways you'd have him as undoubted favourite in those duels.

 

[Moby]

No I'm obviously not going to those extremes at all. I'm simply stating that he's more likely to get caught out of position supporting an attack, than if he was constantly sat deep covering his zone.

It might only happen 2 or 3 times across 90 minutes, but I wouldn't want anyone other than CR to make the most of those moments. And when it's Vidic he'd likely go up against in those breakaways you'd have him as undoubted favourite in those duels.

It would have happened 2 or 3 times (which is a pretty high number for the kind of open counter you are referring to in actual games) if you had an elite passer at the back and I had a bad defender with poor tactical awareness, poor pace and stamina etc. I don't see it happening here, even at Madrid how many times do you see players being able to pass it directly to him in final third? Cristiano himself 99% of the times drops into his own half or gets near the halfway line to be able to be available for kickstarting a counter, in which case having the likes of Marcelo/Kroos/Modric etc around him can start a good counter, and then the onus is on the opposing fullback to make it back into position in time by the time they reach the opposition final third (and there's enough time for doing that and the likes of Alves, Lahm etc defended fine in those situations).

But the problem here is that he looks isolated. To have those kind of one-touch give and gos he wants during counters (even at United it was the same approach with him) he would need a fullback who would be willing to give him company and have good technical ability to link up with him. You can't expect him to execute counters all by himself, that too without having anyone who can deliver quality service from the back. At best there is an outside chance of that happening, in case Gerets has a complete brainfart which I don't expect from someone who captained European Cup winning teams. But for sure I don't consider it as a guaranteed scenario that is bound to happen in this game.

Also, like I asked earlier, how do you plan to deal with the 2v1 from Robben + Gerets vs. Tassotti? Surely if I am taking this so called risk, I would also reap the reward for it on the other end?

 

[harms]

I really don't see either team working very well. Robben makes Moby's team too gung-ho, but his midfield and defense is set up to sit deeper... aside from Koeman, who doesn't suit that type of game. Luckily, there's this incredibly negative approach from P-Nut that may save him, that is a very defensive midfield set up and Cristiano/Julinho won't help out much.

I'm leaning towards Moby at this point, although as I was typing it, I realised that I'm not allowed to vote in this one.

 

[Moby]

I'm leaning towards Moby at this point, although as I was typing it, I realised that I'm not allowed to vote in this one.

That's right harms. Jog off! kidding haha

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Moby's team too gung-ho, but his midfield and defense is set up to sit deeper... aside from Koeman, who doesn't suit that type of game

Gerets?

2 out 4 defenders contributing more than enough offensively is good enough for me. Schnellinger was a good pick from that perspective.

Even Souness Bonhof looks okay to me. Very balanced.

I am also leaning towards Moby but Pnut midfield and Moby wings is what is holding me back. That midfield is perfect.

 

[P-Nut]

It would have happened 2 or 3 times (which is a pretty high number for the kind of open counter you are referring to in actual games) if you had an elite passer at the back and I had a bad defender with poor tactical awareness, poor pace and stamina etc. I don't see it happening here, even at Madrid how many times do you see players being able to pass it directly to him in final third? Cristiano himself 99% of the times drops into his own half or gets near the halfway line to be able to be available for kickstarting a counter, in which case having the likes of Marcelo/Kroos/Modric etc around him can start a good counter, and then the onus is on the opposing fullback to make it back into position in time by the time they reach the opposition final third (and there's enough time for doing that and the likes of Alves, Lahm etc defended fine in those situations).

But the problem here is that he looks isolated. To have those kind of one-touch give and gos he wants during counters (even at United it was the same approach with him) he would need a fullback who would be willing to give him company and have good technical ability to link up with him. You can't expect him to execute counters all by himself, that too without having anyone who can deliver quality service from the back. At best there is an outside chance of that happening, in case Gerets has a complete brainfart which I don't expect from someone who captained European Cup winning teams. But for sure I don't consider it as a guaranteed scenario that is bound to happen in this game.

Also, like I asked earlier, how do you plan to deal with the 2v1 from Robben + Gerets vs. Tassotti? Surely if I am taking this so called risk, I would also reap the reward for it on the other end?

I'll answer the risk reward part first.

I have no doubt you'll have more of the ball, but allowing Gerets out wide isn't a big issue for me really. I've got 2 solid centre backs who I'd expect to come out on top on balls into the box.

I've set up extremely defensively so sure, you'll have more of the ball and more time in the attacking third.

As for Cristiano having no support, you're ignoring Zico who is the link from the deeper midfielders to the attacking line. Plus Benzema who is the perfect partner due to his link up play. It's not like on the break I wouldn't have players pushing forward and linking up. There's 4 world class players that will be pushing into space and linking up on the break.

 

[Moby]

I have no doubt you'll have more of the ball, but allowing Gerets out wide isn't a big issue for me really. I've got 2 solid centre backs who I'd expect to come out on top on balls into the box.

Exactly my point, that's far far more risky than the odd counter that might happen on the other end.

It isn't that I am trying to paint Gerets as a Cafu going forward, and if he had a defensive assignment on him, I wouldn't talk about his forward impact. But without a defensive assignment on him and having Tassotti face a 2v1 everytime the ball goes down that flank, especially with someone like Robben cutting inside is simply giving away free goals. Forget defending aerial service, but the amount of cutbacks and drilled crosses into the box with none other than Romario poaching, Ronaldo as the second target and Robben himself in close company, that is going to be mayhem. Take City for example and what happens when their fullbacks are played the ball with no one defending them, it causes absolute mayhem.

Sorry but that's just throwing Tassotti under the bus. I have a lot of other strong avenues to attack namely the link up between the front two who can attack through the middle or Ribery opening up from the other side etc but that's just a delicious route for me attack. Especially given it WILL happen time and time again. How many barrages can you defend with someone being completely open like that? Especially when you have two GOAT strikers in the box who are impossible to mark, etc.

 

[harms]

Gerets?

2 out 4 defenders contributing more than enough offensively is good enough for me. Schnellinger was a good pick from that perspective.

Even Souness Bonhof looks okay to me. Very balanced.

I'm talking about defense. Both teams seem to work with 2 clearly distinct parts — a defensive one and an offensive one. Which means that when defending, they'd sit deep and concede pressure, and Koeman is the wrong type of a center back for that. Gerets would be alright.

 

[Moby]

I'm talking about defense. Both teams seem to work with 2 clearly distinct parts — a defensive one and an offensive one. Which means that when defending, they'd sit deep and concede pressure, and Koeman is the wrong type of a center back for that. Gerets would be alright.

P-Nut has pretty much conceded possession from his tactics and further posts, so I don't expect a spell of constant pressure which could be a problem for sure.

Also not really great that typically he gets targeted again as some sort of David Luiz when he spent his career winning everything at different clubs. I think it was you yourself who tried to make a case for him being painted as a poor defender unfairly and while no one is saying he's the best 1v1 defender out there, but he's a lot lot better than what he gets credit for. You don't keep your place winning multiple European Cups and 4 League titles in a row if you are anywhere close to the kind of shit he gets. And Cruyff's Barca were nowhere near Pep's Barca in terms of keeping the ball for 80% of the game which could be used as an excuse. They were a direct team and the defense constantly faced attacks and did just fine. It's all well and good saying how he's underrated defensively otherwise but when the games happen it's the same shit repeated again. feck Cruyff and his retarded interviews.

 

[harms]

P-Nut has pretty much conceded possession from his tactics and further posts, so I don't expect a spell of constant pressure which could be a problem for sure.

Also not really great that typically he gets targeted again as some sort of David Luiz when he spent his career winning everything at different clubs. I think it was you yourself who tried to make a case for him being painted as a poor defender unfairly and while no one is saying he's the best 1v1 defender out there, but he's a lot lot better than what he gets credit for. You don't keep your place winning multiple European Cups and 4 League titles in a row if you are anywhere close to the kind of shit he gets. And Cruyff's Barca were nowhere near Pep's Barca in terms of keeping the ball for 80% of the game which could be used as an excuse. They were a direct team and the defense constantly faced attacks and did just fine. It's all well and good saying how he's underrated defensively otherwise but when the games happen it's the same shit repeated again. feck Cruyff and his retarded interviews.

He was a proactive defender and what I expect from this set up is a lot of reactive defending. But yeah, P-Nut himself has very much limited the amount of pressure he's going to put on your defense, so it's fair play.

 

[P-Nut]

Exactly my point, that's far far more risky than the odd counter that might happen on the other end.

It isn't that I am trying to paint Gerets as a Cafu going forward, and if he had a defensive assignment on him, I wouldn't talk about his forward impact. But without a defensive assignment on him and having Tassotti face a 2v1 everytime the ball goes down that flank, especially with someone like Robben cutting inside is simply giving away free goals. Forget defending aerial service, but the amount of cutbacks and drilled crosses into the box with none other than Romario poaching, Ronaldo as the second target and Robben himself in close company, that is going to be mayhem. Take City for example and what happens when their fullbacks are played the ball with no one defending them, it causes absolute mayhem.

Sorry but that's just throwing Tassotti under the bus. I have a lot of other strong avenues to attack namely the link up between the front two who can attack through the middle or Ribery opening up from the other side etc but that's just a delicious route for me attack. Especially given it WILL happen time and time again. How many barrages can you defend with someone being completely open like that? Especially when you have two GOAT strikers in the box who are impossible to mark, etc.

That is basically saying no winger can ever work by staying up top, and that hard working wingers who track back every inch are always going to be the better in a match scenario. It depends massively on the quality of the player you're leaving up top. Again this is Cristiano, the man who has epitomised a killer counter attack for the last 15 years, with his partner in crime beside him and Zico, one of the greatest 10s to play the game linking up on those breaks.

Add in Julinho on the other side coming inside on those breaks and adding extra options and it's a devastating counter.

Games can be won with less of the ball and allowing the opposition to push on and staying tight defensively, before springing the counter attack. That's exactly the game plan here, with 2 all time great defensive minded midfielders, shielding a defense that itself is solid as anything we've got on offer here.

 

[Moby]

That is basically saying no winger can ever work by staying up top, and that hard working wingers who track back every inch are always going to be the better in a match scenario. It depends massively on the quality of the player you're leaving up top. Again this is Cristiano, the man who has epitomised a killer counter attack for the last 15 years, with his partner in crime beside him and Zico, one of the greatest 10s to play the game linking up on those breaks.

Add in Julinho on the other side coming inside on those breaks and adding extra options and it's a devastating counter.

Games can be won with less of the ball and allowing the opposition to push on and staying tight defensively, before springing the counter attack. That's exactly the game plan here, with 2 all time great defensive minded midfielders, shielding a defense that itself is solid as anything we've got on offer here.

The criticism is not of Ronaldo at all, he's right where he should be, but the team isn't set up to get the best out of him. Anyone would play Ronaldo exactly like this, but they would have a lot more facilitators in the team to provide him enough on the plate. To be honest this team reminds me a bit of the uber-defensive setups Mourinho used to use in El Classicos where he would through multiple defensive midfielders on the pitch and usually it ended with Ronaldo looking really isolated and frustrated for most of the game. It's not a coincidence that Madrid filled up their team with more playmakers in the next few years and also had the emergence of Marcelo as a truly amazing offensive outlet and became a trophy winning machine.

No one criticize Ronaldo not being a great weapon counters, it's just that you don't have enough of an outball or the kind of smooth transitions that are required to get those attacks going in the most effective manner.

 

[2mufc0]

The CR7 - BENZEMA partnership went on for an age, but they were magical together. In 9 years they won 15 trophies, including 4 CLs. Football harmony.

touché.