Coronavirus Draft - R1- Enigma vs Green Smiley

[GodShaveTheQueen]

.......................................................ENIGMA...................................................................................................\.......... GREEN SMILEY...................................................

TEAM ENIGMA

Formation: 4-4-2
Style: Direct, counter-attacking.

Player Profiles:
GK: Gordon Banks - Complete keeper, one of the best ever with the most famous save in the game.
LB: Silvio Marzolini - Defensive full back, covers for Passarella when he goes forward.
RB: Philipp Lahm - balanced and one of the greatest readers of the game at full back position.
CB: Daniel Passarella - attacking center back. Adds number in the midfield and also a huge threat from set pieces.
CB: Karlheinz Forster - stopper.
CM/DM: Jean Tigana - defensive central midfielder. Protect the back four when off the ball and drops back when Passarella attacks.
CM: Wilem van Hanegem - a mixture of playmaker and B2B. Controls the tempo, actively participates in the defensive phase and adds a lot of power and height in the midfield battle.
LW/LAM: Rivelino - Industrious winger. Ability to beat his man and stretch the full back, but also adds great work rate to the midfield.
RW: Bruno Conti - Another winger notable for his stamina and work rate. plays as a natural right winger.
SS: Ferenc Puskas - second striker. The Hungarian had poise, power, flair and one of the most ferocious left feet the game has ever seen.
CF: Ronaldo - The most complete #9 of all time. One man attack.

Defence: Classic sweeper/stopper combination. The defence is marshalled bu two times World Cup winning captain Daniel Passarella. Forster is one of the best pure stopper in the game, whilst Marzolini is one of the best options to cover his forays. Lahm is balanced full back able to tuck in but also participate actively in the attacking third.

Midfield: van Hanegem and Tigana combo have it all as a pair - tireless running, stamina and defensive game coupled with playmaking ability, excellent on the ball and power. Rivelino can tuck and and compensate the numbers in the middle when we're off the ball, whilst Bruno Conti offers a lot in both phases.

Attack: Puskas/Fenomeno is a deadly combination of pace, power, dribbling ability and having all it takes to unlock any defence. Puskas will be the creative second striker that will also drop in the AM position when we are off the ball, whilst Fenomeno will be in his all conquering force of nature form.

Key Strengths:

1. Individual quality - fantastic attacking unit with one of the greatest strikers in the game.
2. No weakness in any line - complimentary players in every position, whilst also having tactically and individually great players
3. Work rate - very industrious side able to provide in both phases that can outmuscle and outrun the opposition.

TEAM GREENSMILEY

4-3-3, attack down the wings, with Zanetti having more freedom to roam forward. 2 defensive B2B midfielders forming the base to support the attacking front four

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Good luck @Enigma_87 @green_smiley

 

[green_smiley]

Enigma's players have shinier reputation so will definitely win this one

 

[green_smiley]

Spoiler: Spoiler

 

[Moby]

Insane teams. Can try finding any kind of weakness but nothing's there.

 

[Himannv]

Really good teams on the whole. Not many weaknesses in either side, so it'll probably come down to quality of players.

 

[Jim Beam]

I actually like GS team as a collective a bit more. Only if he had a different pair of CB.
Don't think they are that good fit together and will struggle against enigma's attack even with Rijkaard support. But, the rest of it is brilliant.

 

[P-Nut]

Like both of those sides. It's one of those games that if we'd brought GSTQ's 0.5 rule in for that I think most votes would be those rather than outright.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm not sure Engima is quite as balanced a side. It seems a little narrow on the left given Marzolini is a defensive left-back. Ideally I think you'd want someone like Giggs on the left with Kopa on the right wing being overlapped by Lahm. Essentially switch the flanks of the AM and winger.

Not sure yet though whether this will make that much difference in this game though.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Don't think they are that good fit together and will struggle against enigma's attack even with Rijkaard support. But, the rest of it is brilliant.

What don't you like about Tresor Ruggeri?

I think its a classic sweeper stopper pair with both having very different strengths and hence really complimentary.

 

[Enigma_87]

I'm not sure Engima is quite as balanced a side. It seems a little narrow on the left given Marzolini is a defensive left-back. Ideally I think you'd want someone like Giggs on the left with Kopa on the right wing being overlapped by Lahm. Essentially switch the flanks of the AM and winger.

Not sure yet though whether this will make that much difference in this game though.

TBH width in attack on the left IMO is really a non issue, considering the players on park.

Rivelino in that 1970 team played alongside Everaldo who was a defensive LB that didn't really offer much going forward. He was the only source of width on the left and his qualities - ability to beat his man, crossing and passing adds a lot to the attacking third.

Also we have 3 other players that loved that outside left channel - Van Hanegem, Puskas and Fenomeno(who pretty much loved the right one too) - and who can also stretch the defence and swap positions.

One of the reasons why I went with the Puskas/Ronaldo combo is their interchangeability and when Ronaldo drifts wide Puskas can attack the box.

When Passarella overloads the midfield Van Hanegem can open the left side with Tigana dropping in the hole, essentially we have 4-5 players that are very comfortable on that left side without a designated left winger.

The reason why Rivelino also is (at least to me) a better option than someone like Gento is his work rate and ability to shore the midfield when off the ball.

Giggs also has a top notch work rate, but I rate Rivelino a tier above.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Like both of those sides. It's one of those games that if we'd brought GSTQ's 0.5 rule in for that I think most votes would be those rather than outright.

Yea, that had to be dumped as very few would have gone for the full vote

Thought of changing ratio to 0.75 but eventually felt it wasnt the right draft for the rule.

 

[Jim Beam]

What don't you like about Tresor Ruggeri?

I think its a classic sweeper stopper pair with both having very different strengths and hence really complimentary.

Despite being sweeper stopper pair on the paper I see them both as players with similar strengths. Strong in the air, physically dominant and imposing. I would prefer a different partner for Tresor or someone quicker to deal with this attack. For example, Vierchowod.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Despite being sweeper stopper pair on the paper I see them both as players with similar strengths. Strong in the air, physically dominant and imposing. I would prefer a different partner for Tresor or someone quicker to deal with this attack. For example, Vierchowod.

Tresor was fairly quick on his own and so was Ruggeri. I'd even classify Ruggeri as among the faster stoppers of his day.

 

[Synco]

I think Ruggeri is fine, and I'm not sure I'd classify Tresor as a type of CB that has to play a sweeper role. I've only seen one full game of him, but he seemed more like the archetype of a well-rounded, athletic modern CB to me, suited to different roles and situations. But it's not based on a lot of material, I admit.

All in all, I think smiley's defense is fine, both in terms of style and quality - although I rate Enigma's central defense higher.

Attacking-wise, Enigma has the edge for me (but GS's team is obviously really good too). In terms of workrate from the forwards, GS might have an advantage. Which, if others agree, should count for something as well.

@Enigma_87
Can anything be said about Puskas involvement in the defensive phase? I have Ronaldo down as okay-ish in that regard (and taking his breaks during games), benefitting from a hardworking partner. The rest of your team is set up well in that regard, imo.

 

[harms]

I don't like that @green_smiley doesn't have any real playmakers. His front three are all known for carrying the ball forward, but it would've been better to have an exceptionally creative passer (like van Hanegem or Rivellino) instead of either Tardelli or Kubala. As it stands, Rijkaard is probably his best passer, and ideally you'd want someone a bit more creative to break a unit like Passarella/Förster/Tigana with one pass; Rijkaard actually can do it, but just not as consistently as, say, Laudrup. In a close game like this it can be what makes the difference.

 

[harms]

I think Ruggeri is fine, and I'm not sure I'd classify Tresor as a type of CB that has to play a sweeper role. I've only seen one full game of him, but he seemed more like the archetype of a well-rounded, athletic modern CB to me, suited to different roles and situations. But it's not based on a lot of material, I admit.

Yeah, I think he's one of those who gets shunted into the sweeper category simply because at the time you had to be one or the other. And he was the one who was good with the ball and tended to be a defensive organiser. At his peak he was closer to Boateng in terms of his style (less talented on the ball, but probably a sturdier defender).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Yeah, I think he's one of those who gets shunted into the sweeper category simply because at the time you had to be one or the other. And he was the one who was good with the ball and tended to be a defensive organiser. At his peak he was closer to Boateng in terms of his style (less talented on the ball, but probably a sturdier defender).

I don't think he was less talented on the ball.

The younger peak Tresor was exceptional on the ball. Was a libero to start with and there are some really impressive clips of him in the role.

Eventually transformed into a ball playing CB as he grew older.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87
Can anything be said about Puskas involvement in the defensive phase? I have Ronaldo down as okay-ish in that regard (and taking his breaks during games), benefitting from a hardworking partner. The rest of your team is set up well in that regard, imo.

Cheers, mate.

In terms of his involvement I'd say he's pretty involved in both phases. At his peak (and this is his peak incarnation, rather than the striker one), Puskas participated in attack and defence.

Here's an excerpt of the Hungarian playing style and also instructions by his own words:

Sebes wanted his players to be able to play in any position at any time, just like Rinus Michels and Pep Guardiola, and this was an early form of Total Football. Ferenc Puskas commented on it saying, “When we attacked, everyone attacked, and in defence it was the same. We were the prototype for Total Football.” Players were constantly moving and changing position according to a pre-arranged plan and this meant that the Hungarians could play fluid football, with some fantastic passing and movement and the opponents could never scout them properly, because their movement was arranged pre-game.

He would definitely drop back to help the midfield and press the opposition defenders into an error, as basically that was his style at the time.

In his later career at Real he obviously got a few pounds, but then again after he settled at Real he dropped them and showed some determination and work rate even at the later stages of his career. I think there was another quote from that time where it's noted that before he joined Real he let loose of his form but immediately when the season started he got back in shape rather quickly. Deep in his 30's of course his shape deteriorated and he assumed round one that is famous in many photos.

 

[Synco]

The younger peak Tresor was exceptional on the ball. Was a libero to start with and there are some really impressive clips of him in the role.

Are they online? Would be interested in seeing them, really like the player.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Are they online? Would be interested in seeing them, really like the player.

They are on the Marseille website in some corner, not on YouTube. I did make gifs in the past but they are expired now.

I will search in a bit.

 

[Synco]

They are on the Marseille website in some corner, not on YouTube. I did make gifs in the past but they are expired now.

I will search in a bit.

Cheers, sounds good.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@Synco , found a couple, you can search the same website for more but its a pain in the ass.

https://www.ina.fr/video/I00001538/montee-de-marius-tresor-video.html

https://www.ina.fr//video/I00001561/tir-sur-le-poteau-de-marius-tresor-video.html

 

[Synco]

Cheers, mate.

In terms of his involvement I'd say he's pretty involved in both phases. At his peak (and this is his peak incarnation, rather than the striker one), Puskas participated in attack and defence.

Here's an excerpt of the Hungarian playing style and also instructions by his own words:



He would definitely drop back to help the midfield and press the opposition defenders into an error, as basically that was his style at the time.

In his later career at Real he obviously got a few pounds, but then again after he settled at Real he dropped them and showed some determination and work rate even at the later stages of his career. I think there was another quote from that time where it's noted that before he joined Real he let loose of his form but immediately when the season started he got back in shape rather quickly. Deep in his 30's of course his shape deteriorated and he assumed round one that is famous in many photos.

Sounds exactly like what's needed in the center. Awesome team.

 

[Physiocrat]

TBH width in attack on the left IMO is really a non issue, considering the players on park.

Rivelino in that 1970 team played alongside Everaldo who was a defensive LB that didn't really offer much going forward. He was the only source of width on the left and his qualities - ability to beat his man, crossing and passing adds a lot to the attacking third.

Also we have 3 other players that loved that outside left channel - Van Hanegem, Puskas and Fenomeno(who pretty much loved the right one too) - and who can also stretch the defence and swap positions.

One of the reasons why I went with the Puskas/Ronaldo combo is their interchangeability and when Ronaldo drifts wide Puskas can attack the box.

When Passarella overloads the midfield Van Hanegem can open the left side with Tigana dropping in the hole, essentially we have 4-5 players that are very comfortable on that left side without a designated left winger.

The reason why Rivelino also is (at least to me) a better option than someone like Gento is his work rate and ability to shore the midfield when off the ball.

Giggs also has a top notch work rate, but I rate Rivelino a tier above.

I just watched a couple of all-touch compilations of Rivelino from 1970 and he provided very little width in the final third. He played basically a free role popping up everywhere and making about five shots a game. The question whether you can function to a very high level quite lopsidedly is certainly true I just don't see it being optimal. For you to have a more balanced attack you would need van Hanagem to drift wide something like Iniesta did with the Xaviesta midfield with Abidal at left-back (although Abidal offers more going forward than Marzolini from the video footage I've seen). Are there any good videos showing van Hanagem drifting far leftwards?

Clearly Rivelino is a better player than Giggs all my point was that you would be more balanced with your free roleish wide playmaker on the right in this setup with an orthodox left winger, hence the suggestion of Giggs on the left and Kopa on the right.

 

[2mufc0]

I just watched a couple of all-touch compilations of Rivelino from 1970 and he provided very little width in the final third. He played basically a free role popping up everywhere and making about five shots a game. The question whether you can function to a very high level quite lopsidedly is certainly true I just don't see it being optimal. For you to have a more balanced attack you would need van Hanagem to drift wide something like Iniesta did with the Xaviesta midfield with Abidal at left-back (although Abidal offers more going forward than Marzolini from the video footage I've seen). Are there any good videos showing van Hanagem drifting far leftwards?

Clearly Rivelino is a better player than Giggs all my point was that you would be more balanced with your free roleish wide playmaker on the right in this setup with an orthodox left winger, hence the suggestion of Giggs on the left and Kopa on the right.

Agree with you actually, Rivelino was a 10, the dynamics of that Brazil 1970 was completely different to this.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think Pele covered a fair bit of the left flank when Rivellino roamed and one can expect the same of Puskas here.

While one would want an overlapping fullback there, Passarella needs to be covered as well, so something has to be compromised and if it was me, I'd have compromised on the left back's attacking output as well.

Of course, no question that Giggs suits that team a lot better than Rivellino and solves all the minor balance problems.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I like both teams a lot. Enigma obviously has the more obvious vote pullers, but you can't say GS team doesn't match them quality wise, if not vote pull wise.

Really like both attacks, midfields and defenses.

My minor concerns would be -

GS - A top tier CB would have made me feel more confident about handling that explosive front 2. Dont see Tresor Ruggeri keeping them quite througout for sure.
Enigma - I think the midfield is a little weak defensively. I am usually okay with no holder in a 4-4-2 with all 4 midfielders being work horses, but I wouldn't classify either Hanegem or Rivellino as a workhorse. A holder would have also covered well for Passarella's advances.

Currently undecided

 

[Enigma_87]

I just watched a couple of all-touch compilations of Rivelino from 1970 and he provided very little width in the final third. He played basically a free role popping up everywhere and making about five shots a game. The question whether you can function to a very high level quite lopsidedly is certainly true I just don't see it being optimal. For you to have a more balanced attack you would need van Hanagem to drift wide something like Iniesta did with the Xaviesta midfield with Abidal at left-back (although Abidal offers more going forward than Marzolini from the video footage I've seen). Are there any good videos showing van Hanagem drifting far leftwards?

Clearly Rivelino is a better player than Giggs all my point was that you would be more balanced with your free roleish wide playmaker on the right in this setup with an orthodox left winger, hence the suggestion of Giggs on the left and Kopa on the right.

I think you completely discount both Ronaldo and Puskas in this analysis.

Both are notorious to use the left flank when looking for space and as I said there are enough bodies in the attacking third to use that space, without having a designated outside left in this formation.

The main idea behind Rivelino is also to help the center and shore the midfield. A 4-4-2 offers a lot of space for the striker duo and both can use it to stretch the defence.

Neither Puskas, nor Fenomeno are really static strikers or fox in the box type, that won't stretch the flank too.

Usually with 4-4-2 you also have a playmaker wide. Probably a RW playmaker would looked better in a static image, however our front 2 is all but static which kinda doesn't do their playing styles a favor.

Obviously I'm not selling Rivelino as an outside left and his contribution in the center is well appreciated, my point is that we have a lot of players that can interchange and use that left flank.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not sure both teams have gotten the dynamics right.

Riveline/Puskas has way too many similarities to get best of either. Rivelino was a #10 pushed wide. I doubt the width he'd actually offer here, esp with Puskas manning the IL channel. Czibor would have been perfect there. Similar to @GodShaveTheQueen, I dislike two CM combo. Prefer a passer/orchestrator there to complement.

As to GS, I've made my thoughts on Eusebio's use quite clear in earlier matches. Esp with likes of Kubala, that IR channel would tend to get crowded. Rijkaard-Tardelli is a solid base.

Despite the flaws, I think Enigma shade the creativity side and GS has better balance to get best of all his players. Tough call.

 

[Synco]

Rijkaard-Tardelli is a solid base.

Ah, all-time drafts

 

[green_smiley]

If anything, Enigma's left side is more congested than my right

 

[Enigma_87]

I like both teams a lot. Enigma obviously has the more obvious vote pullers, but you can't say GS team doesn't match them quality wise, if not vote pull wise.

Really like both attacks, midfields and defenses.

My minor concerns would be -

GS - A top tier CB would have made me feel more confident about handling that explosive front 2. Dont see Tresor Ruggeri keeping them quite througout for sure.
Enigma - I think the midfield is a little weak defensively. I am usually okay with no holder in a 4-4-2 with all 4 midfielders being work horses, but I wouldn't classify either Hanegem or Rivellino as a workhorse. A holder would have also covered well for Passarella's advances.

Currently undecided

Tigana is very close to a holder(from what is expected of his role) and will fall back in the hole when Passarella goes forward, so essentially he ticks both boxes.

Obviously both Van Hanegem and Rivelino are flair players but definitely industrious the both of them. Van Hanegem had Jansen as defensive partner at Feyenord in a team that went toe to toe with Cruyff's Ajax and won the EC and whilst of course the mechanics are a bit different he always stuck in challenges and participated actively in the defensive phase.

Example of a classic game against Barcelona - with Cruyff and Neeskens in the lineup:


@Physiocrat take a look at how Hanegem drifts to the left in possession opening up spaces.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

is there any vid being more posted in match threads then Van Hanegem vs Barca? love it!

 

[Enigma_87]

Not sure both teams have gotten the dynamics right.

Riveline/Puskas has way too many similarities to get best of either. Rivelino was a #10 pushed wide. I doubt the width he'd actually offer here, esp with Puskas manning the IL channel. Czibor would have been perfect there. Similar to @GodShaveTheQueen, I dislike two CM combo. Prefer a passer/orchestrator there to complement.

As to GS, I've made my thoughts on Eusebio's use quite clear in earlier matches. Esp with likes of Kubala, that IR channel would tend to get crowded. Rijkaard-Tardelli is a solid base.

Despite the flaws, I think Enigma shade the creativity side and GS has better balance to get best of all his players. Tough call.

I'm not sure which CM combo you mean, but van Hanegem is obviously a passer/orchestrator...

As for Rivelino and Puskas, as scrappy noted Pele and Rivelino had very close mechanics, and Rivelino thrived in a set up with lots of #10's, whilst obviously contributed in both phases.

is there any vid being more posted in match threads then Van Hanegem vs Barca? love it!

Fenomeno vs Nesta was very close to those numbers at some point

 

[green_smiley]

Some nice story behind. English subtitle is available

 

[Physiocrat]

I think you completely discount both Ronaldo and Puskas in this analysis.

Both are notorious to use the left flank when looking for space and as I said there are enough bodies in the attacking third to use that space, without having a designated outside left in this formation.

The main idea behind Rivelino is also to help the center and shore the midfield. A 4-4-2 offers a lot of space for the striker duo and both can use it to stretch the defence.

Neither Puskas, nor Fenomeno are really static strikers or fox in the box type, that won't stretch the flank too.

Usually with 4-4-2 you also have a playmaker wide. Probably a RW playmaker would looked better in a static image, however our front 2 is all but static which kinda doesn't do their playing styles a favor.

Obviously I'm not selling Rivelino as an outside left and his contribution in the center is well appreciated, my point is that we have a lot of players that can interchange and use that left flank.

TBF I didn't consider Puskas and Ronaldo but I would think you would mostly want them to be central to provide goal threat. That said Puskas was an inside left but without Czibor or an attacking LB I do either see Puskas playing on average much wider than he would like or a relatively narrow attack.

This does depend on van Hanagem howwever. I will watch that vid soon.

 

[green_smiley]

Just some nostalgic moment

 

[harms]

Riveline/Puskas has way too many similarities to get best of either.

Both left-footed and both had a cracking shot on them?

 

[Enigma_87]

Despite being sweeper stopper pair on the paper I see them both as players with similar strengths. Strong in the air, physically dominant and imposing. I would prefer a different partner for Tresor or someone quicker to deal with this attack. For example, Vierchowod.

I don't really have an issue with @green_smiley CB pair tbh stilistically. Ruggeri is a good fit for him and as Tresor, as harms noted, wasn't really your typical sweeper. He was strong as feck and was good on the ball which makes him closer to the sweeper category rather than the stopper one.

Obviously I think Ronaldo/Puskas pair will get the better of them but I do rate Ruggeri and Tresor high. Whilst Vierchowod would be better fit for Fenomeno(Ruggeri is not slow, but I wouldn't rank him as fast CB like scrappy mentioned) in terms of overall quality is probably marginal upgrade all things considered.

Don't really have much criticism of GS setup either, bar what harms mentioned - the lack of designated playmaker.