Why does Mexico not have a stronger NT?

[NYAS]

I watch mexican sports media in the youtube. They have a wrong diagnostic of the situation imo. They think playing the Copa America would make them grow. I dont think this is case, because if they can't be more competitives by playing all world cups, its not the Copa America that is going to change anything. Its at clubs level that your football can evolve.

In order to be more competitive, they need to play the Libertadores and other Conmebol competitions on regular basis. They did it in the past sometimes, but they need to stay in the Conmebol for decades to get strong. Also, to win the first world cup is really tough anyway.

Well, basically you're suggesting they pull an Australia when they left Oceania and joined AFC. Australian clubs have been in the Asian Champions League since 2007 and mostly done feck all (they've made it past the round of 16 only thrice in 13 years). Also, I'm not sure the Australians feel their NT has achieved as much progress quality-wise from the move so far as they would have liked, although I'm certain it's more entertaining than playing New Zealand in every continental final. So I don't think the solution is as easy as that.

Although, much like my latter point above, I can't deny it would be delicious seeing Flamengo playing an away game at Azteca or Tigres going to Monumental

 

[ninjaskill]

Didn't they once send the B team to the Copa America and the full squad to the Gold Cup? Totally wrong mindset in my opinion.

That’s a requirement almost every team that sends a team to the Copa America that’s invited sends a b team, and I doubt that concacaf would have accepted Mexico putting in a second choice team to their home tournament. It’s the same as the Copa libertadores when Mexican sides were in it, despite being a bigger and more prestigious tournament than the concacaf version as they are in concacaf the top teams from their league had to play in their continental tournament and so the teams that didn’t do as well ended up in the Copa libertadores as they had to get concacaf permission to play in another confederations tournament. They sent a full team to the Copa America centenary and got hammered 7-0 by chile so the backups probably did better than the main team anyway.

 

[Fortitude]

In all seriousness, how can the cartels, and the stranglehold they have on the nation, be overlooked?

Equivocate that kind of intrinsic, systemic sabotage to any successful footballing nation, and I'm sure they wouldn't look out of place as the OP lead.

If you're young, poor and in a warring region, sport isn't your way out nor a viable option, as opposed to the lifeline it gives to the most disenfranchised kids in impoverished locales around the world with rich sporting histories and a blueprint to follow.

If the criminal underworld in Mexico was 'only' as bad as in the likes of: Brazil, ltaly, USA, Argentina or England, then at least you would have a ratio of kids lost to the usual pitfalls, and a fair amount, who like in the aforementioned countries, could go on to carve out solid careers across a plethora of sports.

Of course, cartels aren't the only problem (as outlined by others), but they have robbed Mexico of countless potential prospects as they would in any nation that allowed them to run roughshod.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Mexicans generally just don’t grow physically as big as Europeans or Brazilians (a lot of Europeans and mixed with African) or Argentinians (many European backgrounds) whereas Mexicans are generally more indigenous makeup. Mexicans in America generally grow bigger but of course play American sports.

Mexicans are very successful in boxing (second most world champions ever, second most Hall of famers) but it’s generally lightweight and below with a few exceptions. Generally it’s between flyweight and featherweight. The Mexican league is a good money maker and Mexicans like to stay there so they don’t take the leap that other foreign players do at the key developmental stage.

I think all of this factors in.

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Very interesting, I had no idea.



Where do you stand on the mentalities of Mexican boxers? Sure you have your Margaritos (who was still tough despite his cheating) but there are plenty of examples of Mexican pugilists with a strong warrior mentalities.

Yeah, based on boxing, the national losing mentality thing isn’t entirely accurate IMO. There’s tons of Mexican fighters who’ve defeated more talented opponents than themselves and there’s some with incredible will and mentality. Lots actually.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Wow, great thread, learned a lot.

So hard to fathom (and I realise this my priviledge showing here) the corruption and mentality criticisms mentioned.

This guy was great. Might not have been the best coach ever, but god, he was entertaining!

tut tut how can you not post this version:

 

[NYAS]

Mexicans generally just don’t grow physically as big as Europeans or Brazilians (a lot of Europeans and mixed with African) or Argentinians (many European backgrounds) whereas Mexicans are generally more indigenous makeup. Mexicans in America generally grow bigger but of course play American sports.

Mexicans are very successful in boxing (second most world champions ever, second most Hall of famers) but it’s generally lightweight and below with a few exceptions. Generally it’s between flyweight and featherweight. The Mexican league is a good money maker and Mexicans like to stay there so they don’t take the leap that other foreign players do at the key developmental stage.

I think all of this factors in.

Generally.

 

[Fortitude]

Mexicans generally just don’t grow physically as big as Europeans or Brazilians (a lot of Europeans and mixed with African) or Argentinians (many European backgrounds) whereas Mexicans are generally more indigenous makeup. Mexicans in America generally grow bigger but of course play American sports.

Mexicans are very successful in boxing (second most world champions ever, second most Hall of famers) but it’s generally lightweight and below with a few exceptions. Generally it’s between flyweight and featherweight. The Mexican league is a good money maker and Mexicans like to stay there so they don’t take the leap that other foreign players do at the key developmental stage.

I think all of this factors in.

Spain's 'technomidgets' put that argument to bed in some ways, though. Granted, the exceptional level of technique needed to pull it off, but size isn't Mexico's biggest problem, imo. As long as you've got the pre-requisite skill and guile (think Hugo Sanchez), there's no reason to play down a team's chance against larger opposition.

Mexico have flattered to deceive a few times in World Cups, too, where it wasn't size that put them out, but poor actions in decisive moments of games.

I think boxing doesn't require as massive a pool of talent to pick from and templates in style and execution are already set in stone for all upcomers to follow from the outset. Football, as far as Mexico is concerned, is being robbed of a talent pool that they should have access to.

 

[adexkola]

2014 was their best chance really. Were leading Holland up to 89th minute and didn't even take it to extra time. Would've had Costa Rica in quarter finals.

Other 3 world cups they've had either Argentina or Brazil so tough draws allround.

They were actually very lucky to qualify for that world cup, U.S helped them out by scoring two injury time goals in Panama to get them a play off (v New Zealand rather than Commebol team which would'be been far more difficult).

Perhaps missing a world cup would wake them up a bit. Interested to see the USA response for 2022.

I think we'll make a mess of it

 

[adexkola]

Didn't they once send the B team to the Copa America and the full squad to the Gold Cup? Totally wrong mindset in my opinion.

Technically, they are in CONCACAF, not COMNEBOL.

I would imagine that if they elected to send their clubs to the Libertadores, and their national team to Copa America they would make a step up to the next level. Ditto for the US team (less so for MLS)

 

[TwoSheds]

I never realised that the scene in Club de Cuervos where the coach asks for money from the young player in order to give him his debut and ends up settling for shagging his "mum" wasn't entirely a joke. That's got to have a huge effect when you can't make it to the first team on merit alone.

 

[SATA]

Out of interest, who is/was recognised as Mexico’s most decorated player in history? Marquez? Ochoa? Blanco?

 

[Class of 63]

Out of interest, who is/was recognised as Mexico’s most decorated player in history? Marquez? Ochoa? Blanco?

Probably Hugo Sánchez who was affectionately known as Pentapichichi.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pentapichichi

 

[VanKenny]

I never realised that the scene in Club de Cuervos where the coach asks for money from the young player in order to give him his debut and ends up settling for shagging his "mum" wasn't entirely a joke. That's got to have a huge effect when you can't make it to the first team on merit alone.

Actually that show gives you a pretty accurate idea as to why things dont work as they should here haha. Amazing show.

Out of interest, who is/was recognised as Mexico’s most decorated player in history? Marquez? Ochoa? Blanco?

Its between Hugo Sanchez and Rafael Marquez.

Sanchez was a Real Madrid star who won five pichichis so thats really hard to beat, but with Mexico he wasnt that good. Marquez was a starter for the Barcelona team that won the double on 2006 and the one that won the trebie on 2009, on top of that with Mexico he always pulled trough, had so many important goals scored and would play every game as if it was a CL final with Barcelona, didnt matter to him.

Ochoa isnt even on the discussion, and Blanco was as talented as the first two and a joy to watch but didnt do much outside Liga MX, but with the national team it was the same case as Marquez or even better, he played with Mexico as if his life was on the line.

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

We've talked about the poor and inefficient development pipeline of Mexican players from Liga MX to Europe and the reason why. More Mexican players playing for clubs like Crystal Palace, Sassuolo, Freiburg etc., even it's not for the European heavyweights they'd still be playing in world class leagues, would be hugely beneficial

I also wonder if the Liga MX's format is counterproductive to the NT, i.e. an Apertura and Clausura which both have liguilla playoffs. On the positive side, it does have a refreshing amount of parity compared to the European leagues, as more teams have a realistic chance of winning a title. More teams have something to play for at the positive end of the table, as usually the battle for the last few liguilla places is very tight and exciting. A Queretaro or Toluca fan for example can realistically hope to see their team win a league title. However that format probably increases short-termism, puts more pressure on coaches who are more vulnerable to getting sacked after half a season, and gives less of an incentive to give young Mexican players vital minutes, than a long European style league season would do. Also that gives coaches themselves less of an opportunity to develop and grow in the job. You can also argue that it often rewards mediocrity.

That format though does generate a lot of money, more than one long league format would do without a doubt, and most likely increases TV ratings in both Mexico and the US. I believe that Liga MX games consistently generate higher TV ratings in the US on average (via Univision), than MLS, Premier League or La Liga games. I personally still find it a very fun league to watch.

Plus the Liga MX promotion / relegation system has been controversial to say the least, and does appear to stack the deck even more against newly promoted clubs. And I think there are talks (or have been talks) about scrapping promotion / relegation. And the bi-annual 'sudo-draft', where Liga MX owners meet at a hotel (in Cancun before the Apertura) to trade players between each other, is also highly controversial, and the players' foundation unsurprisingly want to get rid of it.

I don't think this is a massive factor on its own, but allied to the others it might be, and that is over the years I think that Mexico would have benefited from playing more of their friendlies away to good standard European teams (it doesn't have to be France or Spain all the time) in Europe, rather than seemingly playing the same cluster of teams over and over again in friendlies in the US. However I think they have a contractual arrange for that with Soccer United Marketing (SUM), and those friendlies generate a huge amount of money for everyone concerned. How many other teams in the world could pack in 90,000 fans for a friendly against New Zealand? As I said before, the Mexican NT are the probably the best and most passionately supported sporting team in the USA bar none.

 

[norm87cro]

I think they have a similar problem like Japan to be honest. Technically very good but lack the physical aspect hence such teams will always struggle against the likes of England or France. Defenders should be 6,2 and have 190 pounds and whenever I watched the World cup their defenders fall under this average. I could honestly see Marquez (who was class for Barca) struggle in the Premiership.

 

[RedFish]

They met Marty and Wendy Byrd

 

[Spoony]

Mexicans generally just don’t grow physically as big as Europeans or Brazilians (a lot of Europeans and mixed with African) or Argentinians (many European backgrounds) whereas Mexicans are generally more indigenous makeup. Mexicans in America generally grow bigger but of course play American sports.

Mexicans are very successful in boxing (second most world champions ever, second most Hall of famers) but it’s generally lightweight and below with a few exceptions. Generally it’s between flyweight and featherweight. The Mexican league is a good money maker and Mexicans like to stay there so they don’t take the leap that other foreign players do at the key developmental stage.

I think all of this factors in.

Yes, I agree with this. Boxing is a great example...some of the best lighter weights are Mexicans.

 

[pacifictheme]

What do you mean "even Uruguay"? For 100 years Uruguay has been and remained -bar a handful of years- the country with most Copa America wins.

Argentina pipped us to the top in 1993, we got back on level terms and reclaimed the lone lead in 2011 eliminating Messi's Argentina, in Argentina, at Messi's hometown.

"Even Uruguay", bloody hell.

Calm down babes he obviously meant for such a small nation, which Uruguay are.

 

[paraguayo]

Brazil and Argentina had the advantage that the English influence in society in late 1800s was far greater than in Mexico. Brits businessmen kickstarted football, and it got popular quickly. They also had a much more globalized development, with Hungarian coaches and other European figures participating in their football since the 20s.

While football in Mexico is as popular as in S.America, they are late developers and kind of had to learn on their own, or at least in a much more insular fashion, and without the ability to test themselves because their region was even further away.

 

[Halftrack]

They are sandwiched between 2 soccer World superpowers in Brazil and Argentina. A bit like the way Belgium are sandwiched between France, Germany and Holland.

To be fair, though, they were doing it before Brazil and (long before) Argentina ascended.

 

[Nick7]

Didn't they once send the B team to the Copa America and the full squad to the Gold Cup? Totally wrong mindset in my opinion.

They’re a CONCACAF team. Not CONMEBOL. That would be like Spain being invited to Copa America and sending their first team to South America and keeping the B team for Europe. That’s the wrong mindset.

 

[Lay]

They’re a CONCACAF team. Not CONMEBOL. That would be like Spain being invited to Copa America and sending their first team to South America and keeping the B team for Europe. That’s the wrong mindset.

Did they send the B team when they reached two Copa finals? Genuine question because they haven't done that bad if they're just sending the B team constantly.

 

[paraguayo]

Did they send the B team when they reached two Copa finals? Genuine question because they haven't done that bad if they're just sending the B team constantly.

No, they sent their full strength squad in all copa americas bar 2011

 

[Man of Leisure]

What do you mean "even Uruguay"? For 100 years Uruguay has been and remained -bar a handful of years- the country with most Copa America wins.

Argentina pipped us to the top in 1993, we got back on level terms and reclaimed the lone lead in 2011 eliminating Messi's Argentina, in Argentina, at Messi's hometown.

"Even Uruguay", bloody hell.

 

[MrMarcello]

Basketball and NFL are big there too. Proximity to the states and all that.

They like baseball as well.

 

[MrMarcello]

Would merging Liga MX and MLS help both nations development?

 

[TheReligion]

What do you mean "even Uruguay"? For 100 years Uruguay has been and remained -bar a handful of years- the country with most Copa America wins.

Argentina pipped us to the top in 1993, we got back on level terms and reclaimed the lone lead in 2011 eliminating Messi's Argentina, in Argentina, at Messi's hometown.

"Even Uruguay", bloody hell.

Ant is livid here! He he

 

[lex talionis]

NT puts up decent sides every WC, and we often give top teams really tough games, but thats it, that has been our thing for the last 10 world cups or so. Just being a "decent" team. Not one single 5th game appearance, that has more to do than just having really hard opposition, thats on us.

If you think about it, individually we never have lots of actually great players to choose from. We have had two great players that could be considered world class: Marquez and Hugo Sanchez and thats about it. Forget about having a top 50 or top 100 player on the Balon d' Or standings on the last 10 years, i mean thats weird, not a single one?

A country with 130 million people absolutely obsessed with football, and cant produce one single top 50 or top 100 player? If you look at Argentina there are thousands of them spread over all the european leagues, but we have a dozen maybe.

Uruguay as shown in the OP is the best example. They have had Forlan, Cavani and Suarez in the last 20 years, absolutely top tier strikers, in a country of 3M. Our best has been Chicharito in the same timeframe, thats ridiculous. Jimenez seems like hes on his way to being above Chicharito but thats about it, those two are top 50 strikers in the world if anything, but the three Uruguayans are easily top 5 at their time.

We just dont produce quality, thats the end of it.

These top Uruguayan players go to Europe and play in the top leagues on the planet. Mexican players typically don't. When you gain experience playing against the very best of the best, you get better yourself. I wonder how many of the current Brazil side play in Europe v play in Brazil. Probably quite a few.

Mexico has other sports that claim top talent...baseball and boxing. Futbol is still King, but baseball and boxing aren't far behind for attracting top athletes.

 

[VanKenny]

These top Uruguayan players go to Europe and play in the top leagues on the planet. Mexican players typically don't. When you gain experience playing against the very best of the best, you get better yourself. I wonder how many of the current Brazil side play in Europe v play in Brazil. Probably quite a few.

Mexico has other sports that claim top talent...baseball and boxing. Futbol is still King, but baseball and boxing aren't far behind for attracting top athletes.

Yeah, of course. Mexico is great at baseball and boxing thats right. I would say however that for every kid playing baseball or trying out boxing, there are 100 kids playing football, yet we are better at baseball and boxing than at football. Thats weird but the reasons to this are mostly corruption and mentality as i said on the first page. At least thats what i think

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Are there other popular sports in Mexico next to football?

With a 130M population (top 10 worldwide) you'd expect them to be a more prominent country in international football. Even Uruguay with a 3.5M population have outperformed Mexico in the last decade.

I don't recall any other sport being popular in Mexico like cricket is in India.

It's probably because their football facility & financially are not on par to the European ones. Being a massive population won't make the advantage, I can guarantee that. The same goes to Asian such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and etc as well as South American countries such as Mexico, Paraguay, Peru, Venezuela and etc.

There are tons of people in those countries are football fans but they never be professional football due to financially football is not enough to make them rich in there and others who followed the path of football couldn't be developed properly from the start due to lack of facility. If European footballers or Brazilian/Argentine trained since they were 6-8 yo or something, those countries probably trained their footballers when they were 13-15 years old.

 

[VorZakone]

Coincidentally found this thread on Reddit:

 

[antohan]

Mentality:

Mexican people as a whole have a defeatist mentality. They may say they are superior or as good as anyone, yet deep inside they dont believe it. When things get tough, mexicans have self doubt.

Agree somewhat, but wouldn't necessarily call it mentality in terms of lack of mental strength/self-doubt. Any of the draft regulars will tell you I'm a massive Rafa Marquez fan. Blanco was immense as well (in every sense ). Odds are you should find 23 mentally strong and talented players just like them.

I would instead link it to your other point on corruption and 90% being well off, which makes it more about hunger and ambition. I also get the impression there's a lack of solidarity: your players are busy and determined but when it gets tough they don't come together as a team but instead act as individuals. Spain used to have a similar issue.

Bottomline is, I hate playing you. I know across the board you will have more technically gifted players and you will toy with us, make some of our players look silly, etc. If you score early, we are fecked, game over, you will tear us a new one on the break and in all the gaps we leave at the back. I just go into the game hoping you don't and confident if we keep things tight for the first thirty minutes or so you will start getting disheartened and eventually we will win, because we always -invariably- are better as a team/collective, not just a sum of parts, and over 90 minutes, if we keep it under control, that's bound to prevail.

 

[Lay]

Looking at the last 20 years, they reached the semi final of the Copa America losing to Bolivia and won the Confederations cup in 1999. Would the 1998 World Cup be a massive underachievement? They went out to Germany who got battered in the next game against Croatia. But Mexico only won one game (against South Korea) in 4. But they did have Netherlands and Belgium in their group. If they finished top they would have faced Yugoslavia.

 

[FootballHQ]

Looking at the last 20 years, they reached the semi final of the Copa America losing to Bolivia and won the Confederations cup in 1999. Would the 1998 World Cup be a massive underachievement? They went out to Germany who got battered in the next game against Croatia. But Mexico only won one game (against South Korea) in 4. But they did have Netherlands and Belgium in their group. If they finished top they would have faced Yugoslavia.

2002 was surely the disappoinment. Topped the group ahead of Italy and faced US in last 16 instead of a Brazil or Argentina as seems the norm. US did a good job on them and then outplayed Germany in the quarters but lost 1-0, Mexico would've certainly given that Germany 11 a very good game aswell.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Having a decently well paying, insular domestic league that provides a tempting comfort zone for players, but isn't strong enough to consistently get the best out of talents is something that also became a major problem for Russian football over the past 2 decades. Very few players in that sort of situation have the drive to tough it out when moving abroad and mostly come straight back after a poor start/struggling season or two, often then playing worse than before they left, just coasting along. You get the impression it's more of a casual adventure for many than something done with the same determination as players from countries with poorer/weaker leagues that don't provide the same level of "good enough" comfort zone like the Balkan leagues, Poland etc..

And if a league in this sort of situation institutes rules like strong limits on foreigners it can make things all the worse due to the overinflated value put on domestic players, then giving them even less incentive to work as hard as they can.

 

[limerickcitykid]

They’ve just got rid of their second division. No more promotion/relegation from Liga MX. Talk of bringing in a salary cap. Pushing hard for a future combine with MLS.

 

[hmchan]

China has a population of 1.4 billion, while its FIFA ranking is 76 and the national team struggles to beat Hong Kong.

 

[MrMarcello]

They’ve just got rid of their second division. No more promotion/relegation from Liga MX. Talk of bringing in a salary cap. Pushing hard for a future combine with MLS.

I'm for this. Combine and rebrand NASL. I'd prefer promotion/relegation but cannot see it happening with the US sporting mindset and "franchises."

 

[VorZakone]

Their squad for this World Cup is pretty underwhelming again.