Potential Matic Replacements

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Matic isn't a pure DM either and he also isn't mobile enough against top teams who press from the front. But he'll be fine against the weaker opposition due to his ability on the ball.

It's the way to go because most games we play over a season will be against teams where we will have majority of the ball. Having someone in midfield who can defend well and distribute the ball to a good level will be more beneficial IMO than having a purely defensive player in the role.

Against the top teams we can use our #6/#8 to play a more disciplined role. Zakaria or Partey over Rice or Ndidi is the way to go IMO.

How good is Zakarias passing and how is he when pressed

 

[Fracture90]

Matic on the ball is fantastic and our best player for that specific role due to his technical quality no doubt. But I just feel having someone with Matic's technical quality with added mobility would suit us better in the long-run.

I can relate, it will be difficult to find such a player because even if a player possess his quality on the ball alongside his ability to carry and shield the ball, a player that has all that + experience will be almost impossible.

 

[Adnan]

I can relate, it will be difficult to find such a player because even if a player possess his quality on the ball alongside his ability to carry and shield the ball, a player that has all that + experience will be almost impossible.

It will be difficult no question but I think we will have to go the younger route and buy someone who has huge potential and is on the cusp of being a important player in the role.

 

[Adnan]

How good is Zakarias passing and how is he when pressed

His passing isn't Camavinga or Tonali level but his passing is good enough to advance play and he's comfortable in possession. Then you add his versatility, raw power, searing pace and ability to drive forward and he becomes a very interesting prospect for a coach who wants to play a high tempo game. He's also been used as a CB at times by Marco Rose which is another plus point imo.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

How is his passing ability compared to Fernandinho, Rodri, Jorginho, Kimmich, Verratti, Busquets, Pjanic? These are the DMs of other top teams and I don't think Mctominay is as good as a passer as any of them. Mctominay's strength is his intensity and energy not his passing. If you're telling him to play similar to Matic or Carrick he wouldn't be quite useful against sides that sit deep because we would have most of the ball and his strengths - intensity and energy would not be needed.

Do you think he would have impacted the Sheffield game like Matic did for example? Matic is obviously the better player but what I mean is do you think Mctominay would have brought that calmness and composure in midfield like Matic did for us?

I think we are better off grooming him to be like a Casemiro or Ndidi rather than a Matic or Carrick

I think you give McTominay the instructions to play that role and he can do it. Next time he plays watch his passing range. I can’t argue he’s better as his role has been different to them he’s been involved in a lot more physical situations without time on the ball to pick a pass from deep like the others you mention.

Any solid links to him or is he just a player you love?

Unfortunately not. There was an article in MEN just praising him as being a good option but a lot of coaches and those knowledgeable of Dutch League say he’s the best defensive player in Dutch football.

Honestly if you get the chance to watch him play at any point or can find some of AZ’s games he’s an excellent option.

I’d love him at United as he ticks every box, mentality, composure, age, passing, goals, defensively aware, tactically sound and wouldn’t cost a lot!

No brainer for me. Low risk,

There are tshirts? Haha.. anyway Koopmeiners can play CB too, in case of an emergency. So his play style will be very similar to how Matic performed against Sheffield, dropping as deep as the CBs to build up the play.

Not too worried about pace as most DLP aren't overly reliant on them - Carrick, Pirlo etc were not known for it, neither is Matic.

Pace is important out wide. In the middle of park in the PL a well organised back 4 with even the slowest DM can stop a counter long enough to get into shape.

Matic isn't a pure DM either and he also isn't mobile enough against top teams who press from the front. But he'll be fine against the weaker opposition due to his ability on the ball.

It's the way to go because most games we play over a season will be against teams where we will have majority of the ball. Having someone in midfield who can defend well and distribute the ball to a good level will be more beneficial IMO than having a purely defensive player in the role.

Against the top teams we can use our #6/#8 to play a more disciplined role. Zakaria or Partey over Rice or Ndidi is the way to go IMO.

I don’t understand the obsession with mobility. Positioning should always be the first and best preventative measure of a counter. I’d much rather a well positioned
CDM over a Usain Bolt. We predominantly play weaker opponents and not many counter us successfully.

Zakaria isn’t as good on the ball as other options he’s also a more aggressive defender. He’s closer to Ndidi in defensive actions than Partey.

I’d be happy with Partey though hesitant due to him being in an aggressive system and I think Rice is being poorly analysed.

I do agree however that Ndidi, who is an excellent DM for Leicester, isn’t the right player for us.

How good is Zakarias passing and how is he when pressed

Good but if you’re not convinced by McTominay then I don’t see anything in Zakaria that would make you feel solid.

None of these players are terrible options but I do think there is a clear winner for me

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I think you give McTominay the instructions to play that role and he can do it. Next time he plays watch his passing range. I can’t argue he’s better as his role has been different to them he’s been involved in a lot more physical situations without time on the ball to pick a pass from deep like the others you mention.

Didn't we play a Mctominay and Pogba pivot earlier this season before Pogba's injury? During that period the caf always criticised Mctominay and how he and Pogba don't fit. You can check the Mctominay performance thread. Alot of people calling him a mid table player and criticising his passing.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Didn't we play a Mctominay and Pogba pivot earlier this season before Pogba's injury? During that period the caf always criticised Mctominay and how he and Pogba don't fit. You can check the Mctominay performance thread. Alot of people calling him a mid table player and criticising his passing.

I think in his defence his role in that period was water carrier. It’s likely he was just following instructions in terms of simple passing.

We also need to consider that we didn’t have a No10 at that point where a progressive line break would have been useful.

I’m very confident over the years McTominay will shed his initial impressions and develop well. His long passing diagonally is underrated.

If Carrick believes he can do it I’d trust his judgement over the performance thread on the CAF as too often people who only watch highlights comment.

 

[Adnan]

I think you give McTominay the instructions to play that role and he can do it. Next time he plays watch his passing range. I can’t argue he’s better as his role has been different to them he’s been involved in a lot more physical situations without time on the ball to pick a pass from deep like the others you mention.

Unfortunately not. There was an article in MEN just praising him as being a good option but a lot of coaches and those knowledgeable of Dutch League say he’s the best defensive player in Dutch football.

Honestly if you get the chance to watch him play at any point or can find some of AZ’s games he’s an excellent option.

I’d love him at United as he ticks every box, mentality, composure, age, passing, goals, defensively aware, tactically sound and wouldn’t cost a lot!

No brainer for me. Low risk,

Pace is important out wide. In the middle of park in the PL a well organised back 4 with even the slowest DM can stop a counter long enough to get into shape.


I don’t understand the obsession with mobility. Positioning should always be the first and best preventative measure of a counter. I’d much rather a well positioned
CDM over a Usain Bolt. We predominantly play weaker opponents and not many counter us successfully.

Zakaria isn’t as good on the ball as other options he’s also a more aggressive defender. He’s closer to Ndidi in defensive actions than Partey.

I’d be happy with Partey though hesitant due to him being in an aggressive system and I think Rice is being poorly analysed.

I do agree however that Ndidi, who is an excellent DM for Leicester, isn’t the right player for us.

Good but if you’re not convinced by McTominay then I don’t see anything in Zakaria that would make you feel solid.

None of these players are terrible options but I do think there is a clear winner for me

Because being quick and mobile to cover ground is a advantage in defensive transitions especially when you're playing alongside attack minded players like Pogba and Fernandes. Good positioning can only get you so far in a high risk system playing next to two very attack minded midfielders. Too much emphasis is being placed on passing and positioning and not enough on quick ground coverage to defend space. In reality we need a balance and Zakaria or Partey can provide that. Zakaria is also more talented on the ball in comparison to Ndidi and plays for a coach that plays a high risk game and expects good passing, positioning and fast recovery in defensive transition. Rose also uses Zakaria to advance play from deeper and has even deployed him as a sweeper due to his all round quality.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Because being quick and mobile to cover ground is a advantage in defensive transitions especially when you're playing alongside attack minded players like Pogba and Fernandes. Good positioning can only get you so far in a high risk system playing next to two very attack minded midfielders. Too much emphasis is being placed on passing and positioning and not enough on quick ground coverage to defend space. In reality we need a balance and Zakaria or Partey can provide that. Zakaria is also more talented on the ball in comparison and plays for a coach that plays a high risk game and expects good passing, positioning and fast recovery in defensive transition. Rose also uses Zakaria to advance play from deeper and has even deployed him as a sweeper due to his all round quality.

I understand the benefits I just don’t see the obsession to be honest. We’ve consistently used DMs at United that aren’t blessed with tremendous mobility it’s always been about positioning. The mental aspect is more important at top level than the physical. Even less mobile players are still top athletes.

Positioning will always beat mobility.

I’m not saying they are terrible options but of the 5 DM prospects I have extensively looked into Zakaria is not the best passer. Nor is he the best defensively.

I’m not bashing players but I’m convinced looking at our squad a more physically able DM is not needed.

We’ve beaten the best teams with McTominay and Fred. We need to focus on the smaller deep sitters and none of those teams have pace from central areas currently only in wide areas. We have two fullbacks with enough pace and ability to cover that and Matic is certainly fast enough to delay an attack for them to reposition.

If you look at the team as a unit and not the position in isolation (which I’ll be honest your viewpoint was my viewpoint about 6 months ago) you then start to see how much of our counter resistance is about delaying through positioning and how unsuccessful the mobility chasing is. A good example is McTominay and Fred chasing back after players. It creates high risk situations where we give away free kicks to prevent the counter. A well positioned DM is often enough to limit this threat.

 

[reelworld]

I don't think it makes much sense tbh. If Matic injures VdB Pogba and Bruno midfield would be too attacking. And plus playing VdB deeper you'd just be taking away his best attributes

Carrick wasn't a DM at Spurs but he became one at United. I think VdB has similar attributes that enable him to play that role. He's an extremely good passer and as a product of Ajax school has good positional sense off the ball. I never liked specialist tbh, I think it restricted the team flexibility.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Carrick wasn't a DM at Spurs but he became one at United. I think VdB has similar attributes that enable him to play that role. He's an extremely good passer and as a product of Ajax school has good positional sense off the ball. I never liked specialist tbh, I think it restricted the team flexibility.

Well if he can actually play that role well then I'm up for it really. But have you watched him often?

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I think in his defence his role in that period was water carrier. It’s likely he was just following instructions in terms of simple passing.

We also need to consider that we didn’t have a No10 at that point where a progressive line break would have been useful.

I’m very confident over the years McTominay will shed his initial impressions and develop well. His long passing diagonally is underrated.

If Carrick believes he can do it I’d trust his judgement over the performance thread on the CAF as too often people who only watch highlights comment.

Let's see how he does now that we have Pogba and Bruno

 

[Adnan]

I understand the benefits I just don’t see the obsession to be honest. We’ve consistently used DMs at United that aren’t blessed with tremendous mobility it’s always been about positioning. The mental aspect is more important at top level than the physical. Even less mobile players are still top athletes.

Positioning will always beat mobility.

I’m not saying they are terrible options but of the 5 DM prospects I have extensively looked into Zakaria is not the best passer. Nor is he the best defensively.

I’m not bashing players but I’m convinced looking at our squad a more physically able DM is not needed.

We’ve beaten the best teams with McTominay and Fred. We need to focus on the smaller deep sitters and none of those teams have pace from central areas currently only in wide areas. We have two fullbacks with enough pace and ability to cover that and Matic is certainly fast enough to delay an attack for them to reposition.

If you look at the team as a unit and not the position in isolation (which I’ll be honest your viewpoint was my viewpoint about 6 months ago) you then start to see how much of our counter resistance is about delaying through positioning and how unsuccessful the mobility chasing is. A good example is McTominay and Fred chasing back after players. It creates high risk situations where we give away free kicks to prevent the counter. A well positioned DM is often enough to limit this threat.

We've used Carrick who was a player you describe but we haven't used a player like that in our history consistently. Roy Keane, Paul Ince, Nicky Butt, and even Bryan Robson all played ball winning roles aswell as got forward to support the attack in a different formation. We've traditionally had players who not only supported the attack but also were ball winners, and they were all mobile. Fergie even used Phil Neville against Arsenal to great success in such a role.

Positioning will only beat mobility depending on how much control a team has on proceedings. In the modern game the aggressive high press can cause big issues for immobile players if isolated. And if we do play a more imposing game then then players who are slow and immobile in defensive transition will be exposed against quality teams. And there's a fair few quality teams in the EPL alone without even mentioning the teams in Europe.

Defensively Zakaria has been superb and I've watched Gladbach often. Even our resident German members I'm sure would agree. He's obviously physically and athletically blessed with fantastic pace but he's more than that and plays a key role in how Rose wants to advance play from deeper in the first phase. He's quite simply a very important cog in both defensive and offensive transitions in a very high risk attacking strategy. His average pass percentage is at 87% Which is very good when you take into consideration he plays for a very attack minded coach and his team Gladbach are probably the 5th or 6th best team in the league. In a better team his pass percentage would be in the 90s imo. We don't need a quarter back style #6 which some seem to want but rather a well rounded one that will suit the approach of Solksjaer in a high tempo game which I believe he wants to implement.

McTominay and Fred aren't defensive minded players and positionally McTominay is too undisciplined yet to be trusted in that role IMO. Maybe he can be coached to play that role in the future but I don't see it in the immediate future. Fred could be that player but not at the level we aspire to.

 

[ColvaleGoa]

Matteo Guendozi( can't spell) from Arsenal anyone? Looks like he got good potential.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

We've used Carrick who was a player you describe but we haven't used a player like that in our history consistently. Roy Keane, Paul Ince, Nicky Butt, and even Bryan Robson all played ball winning roles aswell as got forward to support the attack in a different formation. We've traditionally had players who not only supported the attack but also were ball winners, and they were all mobile. Fergie even used Phil Neville against Arsenal to great success in such a role.

Positioning will only beat mobility depending on how much control a team has on proceedings. In the modern game the aggressive high press can cause big issues for immobile players if isolated. And if we do play a more imposing game then then players who are slow and immobile in defensive transition will be exposed against quality teams. And there's a fair few quality teams in the EPL alone without even mentioning the teams in Europe.

Defensively Zakaria has been superb and I've watched Gladbach often. Even our resident German members I'm sure would agree. He's obviously physically and athletically blessed with fantastic pace but he's more than that and plays a key role in how Rose wants to advance play from deeper in the first phase. He's quite simply a very important cog in both defensive and offensive transitions in a very high risk attacking strategy. His average pass percentage is at 87% Which is very good when you take into consideration he plays for a very attack minded coach and his team Gladbach are probably the 5th or 6th best team in the league. In a better team his pass percentage would be in the 90s imo. We don't need a quarter back style #6 which some seem to want but rather a well rounded one that will suit the approach of Solksjaer in a high tempo game which I believe he wants to implement.

McTominay and Fred aren't defensive minded players and positionally McTominay is too undisciplined yet to be trusted in that role IMO. Maybe he can be coached to play that role in the future but I don't see it in the immediate future. Fred could be that player but not at the level we aspire to.

It’s very different to compare players from the 90s/00s when we played 4-4-2. It’s 20/30 years ago since that’s been an effective system. I don’t consider it a convincing argument at all.

The vast majority of games we have control and in games where we don’t we play effective counter attacking football. We need someone for most games and I don’t doubt Zakaria would be fine. I just think there are better options.

The “aggressive high press” is not beaten by mobility but positioning and team support. Or ironically a high press is beaten by long balls too. A DM who can pass under pressure and is positionally sound will be better suited to deal with it than someone who is more physically centred.

I think I just fundamentally disagree with your defensive beliefs about countering a press and looking at our games I’m confident in that disagreement.

Zakaria has good qualities but I believe other players to have better suited qualities like Koopmeiners he’s got all the ability of Zakaria but is superior in almost every metric when it comes to progressive passing and playmaking. He’s also equally as flexible positionally DM, CB and CM.

I also think you’re not considering the benefits of a deep playmaker as they often are afforded more space for their passing. With Rashford making his inside runs that Pogba loves to pick out having another threat like that would be a huge bonus.

 

[Adnan]

It’s very different to compare players from the 90s/00s when we played 4-4-2. It’s 20/30 years ago since that’s been an effective system. I don’t consider it a convincing argument at all.

The vast majority of games we have control and in games where we don’t we play effective counter attacking football. We need someone for most games and I don’t doubt Zakaria would be fine. I just think there are better options.

The “aggressive high press” is not beaten by mobility but positioning and team support. Or ironically a high press is beaten by long balls too. A DM who can pass under pressure and is positionally sound will be better suited to deal with it than someone who is more physically centred.

I think I just fundamentally disagree with your defensive beliefs about countering a press and looking at our games I’m confident in that disagreement.

Zakaria has good qualities but I believe other players to have better suited qualities like Koopmeiners he’s got all the ability of Zakaria but is superior in almost every metric when it comes to progressive passing and playmaking. He’s also equally as flexible positionally DM, CB and CM.

I also think you’re not considering the benefits of a deep playmaker as they often are afforded more space for their passing. With Rashford making his inside runs that Pogba loves to pick out having another threat like that would be a huge bonus.

What you said - "We’ve consistently used DMs at United that aren’t blessed with tremendous mobility"

Which is not true and I proved you wrong. We've had Carrick in that role and he's the only deep midfielder we've had that wasn't very mobile I can remember that we were successful with.

I can't take you seriously if you believe Zakaria is physically centred. Are you sure you've watched him play? He's much more than physicality and I've given you a fairly detailed response earlier on how Rose uses Zakaria and you've completely ignored it. Before he got injured Gladbach were in contention for the league title.

Zakaria is good on the ball and fantastic under pressure with the ball and can pass under pressure playing in a major European league. He has to be when playing in Marco Rose's high risk approach where loss of possession could be very costly.

Koopmeiners plays in a league that isn't very good. I've mentioned him here as a possible recruit way before you've mentioned him and my post history can attest to that. But he's less proven and apart from his ability in passing long he has nothing on Zakaria who plays at a much higher level in the German Bundesliga.

United will look to play a high risk game like most top clubs do. And for that you need a well rounded DM and a player like Zakaria who is good on the ball, good at dribbling, good positioning and versatile. He's also proven his ability against some very good teams in a major European League and he's tactically well drilled playing under the very demanding Marco Rose.

Pogba and Bruno in tandem will require the midfielder behind to be quick and athletic aswell as being good on the ball. Positionally being strong isn't enough when you're playing in a attack minded team and the opposition has fast attackers who will exploit space. With the fullbacks also required to push forward it will come down defending space and Zakaria is phenomenal in that respect.

Think more Klopp's style which Ole's approach is similar too. Rather than Guardiola's. Klopp used a destroyer at Dortmund in Sven Bender with great success. Zakaria is someone that is superior to Bender and you don't need to be a Pirlo or Busquets to be a great deep midfielder.

 

[Devil may care]

@Adnan Is it right that Zakaria has picked up a pretty bad injury?

 

[Adnan]

@Adnan Is it right that Zakaria has picked up a pretty bad injury?

He's still out after that gamè where he was deployed as a sweeper and collided with his own keeper and suffered a nasty knock to his knee.

 

[Infra-red]

@Adnan Is it right that Zakaria has picked up a pretty bad injury?

He's been out with a knee injury since the beginning of March. Underwent surgery on the knee last month.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

What you said - "We’ve consistently used DMs at United that aren’t blessed with tremendous mobility"

Which is not true and I proved you wrong. We've had Carrick in that role and he's the only deep midfielder we've had that wasn't very mobile I can remember that we were successful with.

I can't take you seriously if you believe Zakaria is physically centred. Are you sure you've watched him play? He's much more than physicality and I've given you a fairly detailed response earlier on how Rose uses Zakaria and you've completely ignored it. Before he got injured Gladbach were in contention for the league title.

Zakaria is good on the ball and fantastic under pressure with the ball and can pass under pressure playing in a major European league. He has to be when playing in Marco Rose's high risk approach where loss of possession could be very costly.

Koopmeiners plays in a league that isn't very good. I've mentioned him here as a possible recruit way before you've mentioned him and my post history can attest to that. But he's less proven and apart from his ability in passing long he has nothing on Zakaria who plays at a much higher level in the German Bundesliga.

United will look to play a high risk game like most top clubs do. And for that you need a well rounded DM and a player like Zakaria who is good on the ball, good at dribbling, good positioning and versatile. He's also proven his ability against some very good teams in a major European League and he's tactically well drilled playing under the very demanding Marco Rose.

Pogba and Bruno in tandem will require the midfielder behind to be quick and athletic aswell as being good on the ball. Positionally being strong isn't enough when you're playing in a attack minded team and the opposition has fast attackers who will exploit space. With the fullbacks also required to push forward it will come down defending space and Zakaria is phenomenal in that respect.

Think more Klopp's style which Ole's approach is similar too. Rather than Guardiola's. Klopp used a destroyer at Dortmund in Sven Bender with great success. Zakaria is someone that is superior to Bender and you don't need to be a Pirlo or Busquets to be a great deep midfielder.

I believe that 14 years of consecutively playing without a mobile CDM is long enough to say we have consistently played without one. Or do you honestly expect me to look back 20/30 years with how the game has changed?

Who do you think is the last mobile CDM then? I’d be intrigued how far back in time we must go.

I haven’t said Zakaria is physically centred I said someone with better positional or tactical sense would be better than that. You were the one who suggested Zakaria used his physicality.

I haven’t ignored it if you look back in this thread I did a more detailed breakdown of Zakaria along with, Koopmeiners, Partey, Ndidi and Matic. I don’t feel there is any point me going through it again. I also have on many occasions pointed out that Zakaria is a fine option but not in my eyes the best, again I have made me reasons clear on the matter in the thread. If you wish to know them they are there to read.

I’ve already looked into his press resistance by looking at dispossessions etc in previous comments to this thread just read my posts.

Mentioning and understanding are not the same thing. I only publicly post when I have something to contribute. I’ve been aware of Koopmeiners for about a year and a half now you may have been aware longer but it’s inconsequential.

You’re entitled to your opinion as am I and I just happen to prefer the aspects of Koopmeiners game that I believe mirrors exactly what would fit best into our side. I’ve never said Zakaria isn’t a good player and 6 months ago I would be agreeing with you. But after careful thought and analysis I respectfully just disagree with you.

He’d be a good signing just not the best one IMO.

Koopmeiners is an incredibly well rounded player and defensively has been described as the best in Eredivise. He’s got everything Zakaria has but less physical and more technical. I don’t think we need a more aggressive DM which compared to Koopmeiners he is.

If Bruno and Pogba requires a mobile athletic DM why has our best performance come with Matic?

If we’re playing a better side than us then we could just do what we’ve done all season and have a double pivot and set up to counter. We have the players to do that week in week out as evidenced by our ability to do that against the top sides that go for it against us. Where we have struggled is against the low block where you need positional awareness more than mobility.

You’re now overrating Zakaria and assuming that what we need is someone to take most of the defensive burden but that’s not how we play at all. We defend as
a team and Koopmeiners is just as good at slowing down an attack and then is better at creating a counter.

We do not play like Liverpool. So why would we want someone like that?

I don’t mean to insult but I just think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding the most important aspect of a DM in our system. I also think you haven’t read my previous thoughts on the matter as you’d realise Zakaria is on my list of good options. He’s just not my preferred one.

 

[TrebleFan99]

Unfortunately not. There was an article in MEN just praising him as being a good option but a lot of coaches and those knowledgeable of Dutch League say he’s the best defensive player in Dutch football.

Honestly if you get the chance to watch him play at any point or can find some of AZ’s games he’s an excellent option.

I’d love him at United as he ticks every box, mentality, composure, age, passing, goals, defensively aware, tactically sound and wouldn’t cost a lot!

No brainer for me. Low risk,

Interesting. I dont watch a lot of Dutch football but I’ll keep an eye out for him. Sounds like he's got all the qualities we need.

 

[Adnan]

I believe that 14 years of consecutively playing without a mobile CDM is long enough to say we have consistently played without one. Or do you honestly expect me to look back 20/30 years with how the game has changed?

Who do you think is the last mobile CDM then? I’d be intrigued how far back in time we must go.

I haven’t said Zakaria is physically centred I said someone with better positional or tactical sense would be better than that. You were the one who suggested Zakaria used his physicality.

I haven’t ignored it if you look back in this thread I did a more detailed breakdown of Zakaria along with, Koopmeiners, Partey, Ndidi and Matic. I don’t feel there is any point me going through it again. I also have on many occasions pointed out that Zakaria is a fine option but not in my eyes the best, again I have made me reasons clear on the matter in the thread. If you wish to know them they are there to read.

I’ve already looked into his press resistance by looking at dispossessions etc in previous comments to this thread just read my posts.

Mentioning and understanding are not the same thing. I only publicly post when I have something to contribute. I’ve been aware of Koopmeiners for about a year and a half now you may have been aware longer but it’s inconsequential.

You’re entitled to your opinion as am I and I just happen to prefer the aspects of Koopmeiners game that I believe mirrors exactly what would fit best into our side. I’ve never said Zakaria isn’t a good player and 6 months ago I would be agreeing with you. But after careful thought and analysis I respectfully just disagree with you.

He’d be a good signing just not the best one IMO.

Koopmeiners is an incredibly well rounded player and defensively has been described as the best in Eredivise. He’s got everything Zakaria has but less physical and more technical. I don’t think we need a more aggressive DM which compared to Koopmeiners he is.

If Bruno and Pogba requires a mobile athletic DM why has our best performance come with Matic?

If we’re playing a better side than us then we could just do what we’ve done all season and have a double pivot and set up to counter. We have the players to do that week in week out as evidenced by our ability to do that against the top sides that go for it against us. Where we have struggled is against the low block where you need positional awareness more than mobility.

You’re now overrating Zakaria and assuming that what we need is someone to take most of the defensive burden but that’s not how we play at all. We defend as
a team and Koopmeiners is just as good at slowing down an attack and then is better at creating a counter.

We do not play like Liverpool. So why would we want someone like that?

I don’t mean to insult but I just think you’re fundamentally misunderstanding the most important aspect of a DM in our system. I also think you haven’t read my previous thoughts on the matter as you’d realise Zakaria is on my list of good options. He’s just not my preferred one.

So 14 years of Carrick means "we've consistently used DMs at United that aren’t blessed with tremendous mobility"

Which is not true and you should admit that is a false statement. Historically we've used mobile defensive minded midfielders who also contributed going forward. Carrick from 2006 to 2013 was good but it doesn't mean we've consistently used that type of midfielder.

You should also stop looking back at what we've done in the past and rather look at what is happening now in football. Liverpool won the champions league and League title in consecutive years with Wijnaldum and Fabinho. France won the World Cup with Matuidi and Kante. Real Madrid won several European Cups with Casemiro. I can give you more examples to enforce my point to prove there's more than one way to play the role in question and be hugely successful. You don't need to look back 30 years either.

In what world is Zakaria not positionally strong? All you've done is shown your total lack of understanding of the player and it seems you're arguing your case over a spreadsheet. Zakaria plays in Marco Rose's high risk approach and positionally he has been very good both in midfield and as a CB. It's ignorant to suggest he isn't strong positionally.

Koopmeiners has done diddly squat at a high level to even be compared with Zakaria who plays against far superior opposition consistently. There's no comparison.

Our best performances have come under Matic because maybe he is our only DM? When we have another DM then we'll compare..


I'm not misunderstanding the role of a DM at all. You've done that yourself by making plenty of false assertions about wanting a specific type of player for the role. A type of player that isn't even needed to win the champions league or World Cup. There's more than one way to skin a Cat and you seem to be fixated on a regista type and use Carrick as a template which isn't the norm.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

@Adnan

How would you compare Zakaria to Partey?

The main thing I got against Denis is that he seems to often try to win the ball in situations where he should contain. And while this might be instructions from Rose, it is still worrisome. This tendency to win the ball at all cost is ok if one played with two defensive-oriented midfielders, but not the case with PP and Bruno. Then again, the Bundesliga has been extremely gung-ho this season which makes it hard to evaluate defensive midfielders.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

So 14 years of Carrick means "we've consistently used DMs at United that aren’t blessed with tremendous mobility"

Which is not true and you should admit that is a false statement. Historically we've used mobile defensive minded midfielders who also contributed going forward. Carrick from 2006 to 2013 was good but it doesn't mean we've consistently used that type of midfielder.

You should also stop looking back at what we've done in the past and rather look at what is happening now in football. Liverpool won the champions league and League title in consecutive years with Wijnaldum and Fabinho. France won the World Cup with Matuidi and Kante. Real Madrid won several European Cups with Casemiro. I can give you more examples to enforce my point to prove there's more than one way to play the role in question and be hugely successful. You don't need to look back 30 years either.

In what world is Zakaria not positionally strong? All you've done is shown your total lack of understanding on the player and it seems you're arguing your case over a spreadsheet. Zakaria plays in Marco Rose's high risk approach and positionally he has been very good both in midfield and as a CB. It's ignorant to suggest he isn't strong positionally.

Koopmeiners has done diddly squat at a high level to even be compared with Zakaria who plays against far superior opposition consistently. There's no comparison.

Our best performances have come under Matic because maybe he is our only DM? When we have another DM then we'll compare..


I'm not misunderstanding the role of a DM at all. You've done that yourself by making plenty of false assertions about wanting a specific type of player for the role. A type of player that isn't even needed to win the champions league or World Cup. There's more than one way to skin a Cat and you seem to be fixated on a regista type and use Carrick as a template which isn't the norm.

So do you want me to just qualify that statement that consistently from 2006-2020 we haven’t used a mobile DM? How does that help your argument? Ok 20-30 years ago we used a mobile DM. Happy?Consistently since 2006 we have not. Carrick, Schneiderlin and Matic. Not exactly mobile are they.

You know the point I’m making but rather than accept it as true you are being pedantic and looking back 20 or 30 years.

We aren’t 90s united or even 00s it’s 2020 and the longer we keep pining back to yesteryear the worse it’ll be. We need to be progressive.

I agree different clubs have had success in different leagues with an athletic DM. But look at Barcelona etc? All your point proves is that different clubs play football differently. Which we’ll it’s obvious... I’d also argue it’s incredibly reductive to suggest they are successful because of mobility.

I haven’t said he’s not positionally aware? Not have I suggested he isn’t positionally strong I said we need someone who is positionally strong above all else. I happen to believe Koopmeiners is the better player in that sense. I have evidenced why in previous posts. Me believing someone is better doesn’t mean he isn’t good. Don’t put words in my mouth.

I’m not just arguing my case over a spreadsheet... but I am not going to sit at a laptop and analyse 5 players for you. I’ve done my research and I’ve outlined clearly why I have a preference for Koopmeiners over those other players. I don’t claim to have knowledge beyond those players that I have done my homework on.
So yeah I do know Zakaria very well and I just don’t agree with you. I think there are aspects of his game that would not benefit us as much as a player like Koopmeieners.

I don’t expect to change your mind but do you honestly want me to explain all the metrics because I slightly prefer one type of player than you, if you cannot understand the reasons for my presences that’s not my issue. This isn’t a lesson. I have a preference for the type of midfielder Koopmeiners is. I believe Zakaria is a good option but IMO not the best.

Bear in mind I believe he’s in the top 5 suggestions in the world so I clearly hold him in high regard?

The German league isn’t the most competitive as evidenced by shock horror Bayern winning again. Of course there are quality opponents but Koopmeiners has performed admirably against good sides too.

You may feel the Dutch league is inferior and not value the type of player it creates but I’d say it’s a good league for what we want and it’s a bit elitist to completely disregard a player based on them taking a different career pathway. Koopmeiners is Dutch do you expect him to be brought up anywhere else? Zakaria is Swiss so naturally the German league would be a sensible league destination early in his career.

So if you acknowledge it’s the best performance you are also admitting that we worked well with a less mobile DM. So the 2020 evidence suggests we don’t need one to play with Pogba and Bruno. I am dealing with facts your argument for a mobile DM is based on speculation but note the last time we used one we were playing more 4-4-2 anyway.

You didn’t read my post. I said “in our system” you clearly understand the benefits of mobility at DM. You however seem to take extreme exception to anyone who believes differently to you even if it’s a case of rating someone top 5 but not top 1

I believe at United the ability to position, delay attacks and create counters/line breaks is the most important combination. Mobility is not high on the priority list.

Pot kettle black for fixation. You appeared fixed on Zakaria. I am confident in Koopmeiners however I am not so arrogant as to completely dismiss a player as you have. I’ve said many times Zakaria is a good option just for me not the best.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

@Adnan

How would you compare Zakaria to Partey?

The main thing I got against Denis is that he seems to often try to win the ball in situations where he should contain. And while this might be instructions from Rose, it is still worrisome. This tendency to win the ball at all cost is ok if one played with two defensive-oriented midfielders, but not the case with PP and Bruno. Then again, the Bundesliga has been extremely gung-ho this season which makes it hard to evaluate defensive midfielders.

This is exactly my gripe with Zakaria, he’s a very good DM but he’s more aggressive and proactively engages in situations where containing would be appropriate. That doesn’t mean he’s rubbish and nobody likes him it’s just an observable aspect of his game that I believe is a concern.

I don’t see that same nature in Koopmeiners and I’ve said before that it could be systematic but I’d rather go based on facts and what is observed over what could potentially happen.

I’m glad someone else has noticed this in Zakaria’s game.

 

[Adnan]

@Adnan

How would you compare Zakaria to Partey?

The main thing I got against Denis is that he seems to often try to win the ball in situations where he should contain. And while this might be instructions from Rose, it is still worrisome. This tendency to win the ball at all cost is ok if one played with two defensive-oriented midfielders, but not the case with PP and Bruno. Then again, the Bundesliga has been extremely gung-ho this season which makes it hard to evaluate defensive midfielders.

Zakaria plays in Rose's aggressive press to win the ball quickly in a proactive sense and overwhelm the opposition with fast transitions.

Partey plays in Simeone's more compact team which is a reactive approach but has suited Atleti well but is more defense orientated and is more about the collective rather than defending in isolation or risk.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Zakaria plays in Rose's aggressive press to win the ball quickly in a proactive sense and overwhelm the opposition with fast transitions.

Partey plays in Simeone's more compact team which is a reactive approach but has suited Atleti well but is more defense orientated and is more about the collective rather than defending in isolation or risk.

So if you acknowledge he is more aggressive can you see how this could cause issues?

A misjudged tackle and then the whole team is struggling to get back. A less aggressive approach but with good positioning slows the counter.

 

[Adnan]

So do you want me to just qualify that statement that consistently from 2006-2020 we haven’t used a mobile DM? How does that help your argument? Ok 20-30 years ago we used a mobile DM. Happy?Consistently since 2006 we have not. Carrick, Schneiderlin and Matic. Not exactly mobile are they.

You know the point I’m making but rather than accept it as true you are being pedantic and looking back 20 or 30 years.

We aren’t 90s united or even 00s it’s 2020 and the longer we keep pining back to yesteryear the worse it’ll be. We need to be progressive.

I agree different clubs have had success in different leagues with an athletic DM. But look at Barcelona etc? All your point proves is that different clubs play football differently. Which we’ll it’s obvious... I’d also argue it’s incredibly reductive to suggest they are successful because of mobility.

I haven’t said he’s not positionally aware? Not have I suggested he isn’t positionally strong I said we need someone who is positionally strong above all else. I happen to believe Koopmeiners is the better player in that sense. I have evidenced why in previous posts. Me believing someone is better doesn’t mean he isn’t good. Don’t put words in my mouth.

I’m not just arguing my case over a spreadsheet... but I am not going to sit at a laptop and analyse 5 players for you. I’ve done my research and I’ve outlined clearly why I have a preference for Koopmeiners over those other players. I don’t claim to have knowledge beyond those players that I have done

my homework on.
So yeah I do know Zakaria very well and I just don’t agree with you. I think there are aspects of his game that would not benefit us as much as a player like Koopmeieners.

I don’t expect to change your mind but do you honestly want me to explain all the metrics because I slightly prefer one type of player than you, if you cannot understand the reasons for my presences that’s not my issue. This isn’t a lesson. I have a preference for the type of midfielder Koopmeiners is. I believe Zakaria is a good option but IMO not the best.

Bear in mind I believe he’s in the top 5 suggestions in the world so I clearly hold him in high regard?

The German league isn’t the most competitive as evidenced by shock horror Bayern winning again. Of course there are quality opponents but Koopmeiners has performed admirably against good sides too.

You may feel the Dutch league is inferior and not value the type of player it creates but I’d say it’s a good league for what we want and it’s a bit elitist to completely disregard a player based on them taking a different career pathway. Koopmeiners is Dutch do you expect him to be brought up anywhere else? Zakaria is Swiss so naturally the German league would be a sensible league destination early in his career.

So if you acknowledge it’s the best performance you are also admitting that we worked well with a less mobile DM. So the 2020 evidence suggests we don’t need one to play with Pogba and Bruno. I am dealing with facts your argument for a mobile DM is based on speculation but note the last time we used one we were playing more 4-4-2 anyway.

You didn’t read my post. I said “in our system” you clearly understand the benefits of mobility at DM. You however seem to take extreme exception to anyone who believes differently to you even if it’s a case of rating someone top 5 but not top 1

I believe at United the ability to position, delay attacks and create counters/line breaks is the most important combination. Mobility is not high on the priority list.

Pot kettle black for fixation. You appeared fixed on Zakaria. I am confident in Koopmeiners however I am not so arrogant as to completely dismiss a player as you have. I’ve said many times Zakaria is a good option just for me not the best.

You qualifying your statement won't change the fact that using Carrick as a barometer doesn't change the fact that the benchmark right now is Liverpool in domestic football and the likes of Real Madrid in Europe who use mobile defensive players in midfield.

Barcelona also isn't the benchmark in Europe. And the reason they play with a regista type is due to their philosophy which is controlling possession and dominating play via ball circulation, ball repetition. We've never played that way so using their example is a moot one and I've given you many examples to counter that thought and you've responded with Barcelona and mentioned we need to be progressive when there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You can be progressive without playing with a deep lying playmaker period.

What aspects of Zakaria's game do you disagree with me on? Let's not beat around the bush here and let's get to the crux of the matter.

The German league is far superior to the Dutch one. It's not even close. Zakaria also doesn't play for the best team in the league. Gladbach are about the 5th best team in the league. The Dutch league is a decent competition but nowhere near the quality of the German one.

It's fine not preferring one player over another. But you can't tell me there's a specific type we need to target as #6 because there's evidence to the contrary. And as far as I'm concerned Liverpool are a progressive side with the likes of Wijnaldum and Fabinho. More progressive than we were with Carrick.

 

[Adnan]

So if you acknowledge he is more aggressive can you see how this could cause issues?

A misjudged tackle and then the whole team is struggling to get back. A less aggressive approach but with good positioning slows the counter.

You have to try and understand the mindset/philosophy of Marco Rose and when you do, the answer will be staring right back at you.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Zakaria plays in Rose's aggressive press to win the ball quickly in a proactive sense and overwhelm the opposition with fast transitions.

Partey plays in Simeone's more compact team which is a reactive approach but has suited Atleti well but is more defense orientated and is more about the collective rather than defending in isolation or risk.

Regardless of system, there are situations where containment or pressing/winning the ball/foul is prefered --> Fernandinho is a master of this. So is he Fred or Fernandinho?

I just can't get the "feel" for players playing in gung-ho leagues. Same has the french league. Impossible to accurately evaluate some of those players.

I can definitively see where you are coming from with Zakaria, and he got a huge potential upside with his ability to bring the ball forward, breaking up play and ability to win duels especially. Just think that Partey, currently, is a much better player and safer bet if he was available.

Your description of Simone's Atletico is very fitting btw.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

You qualifying your statement won't change the fact that using Carrick as a barometer doesn't change the fact that the benchmark right now is Liverpool in domestic football and the likes of Real Madrid in Europe who use mobile defensive players in midfield.

Barcelona also isn't the benchmark in Europe. And the reason they play with a regista type is due to their philosophy which is controlling possession and dominating play via ball circulation, ball repetition. We've never played that way so using their example is a moot one and I've given you many examples to counter that thought and you've responded with Barcelona and mentioned we need to be progressive when there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You can be progressive without playing with a deep lying playmaker period.

What aspects of Zakaria's game do you disagree with me on? Let's not beat around the bush here and let's get to the crux of the matter.

The German league is far superior to the Dutch one. It's not even close. Zakaria also doesn't play for the best team in the league. Gladbach are about the 5th best team in the league. The Dutch league is a decent competition but nowhere near the quality of the German one.

It's fine not preferring one player over another. But you can't tell me there's a specific type we need to target as #6 because there's evidence to the contrary. And as far as I'm concerned Liverpool are a progressive side with the likes of Wijnaldum and Fabinho. More progressive than we were with Carrick.

But those players aren’t good because they are mobile. It’s an aspect of their game but not the defining aspect. Equally we are not set up to play like Liverpool or Madrid we play a different style and don’t have the same creativity from wide areas they do.

You realise all your arguments are pot kettle black. You criticise those who argue for a different style by only supporting one style a mobile player. I’m supporting certain traits and also acknowledging that mobility isn’t the defining characteristic of a top DM.

I believe Zakaria is an inferior passer of the ball to Koopmeiners. I believe Zakaria is a good option but my main issues with him are that I believe Koopmeiners has shown he is capable of line breaking passes and delivering long balls more accurately and effectively. I believe they are similar in a defensive sense but that Zakaria takes more risks.

I acknowledge that Zakaria plays in a system that encourages this but United’s system does not. My concern would be Zakaria adapting to a containment role over a more proactive one.

Ive never once suggested he’s not a good player so honestly I don’t know why you’re picking an augment here.

I believe the reason Liverpool suit Fabinho is down partially to their fullbacks providing so much of their creative threat but even Fabinho’s defining quality isn’t his mobility and I think it’s a regressive argument to imply he’s good because he’s mobile.

We have two fullbacks who are better defensively and so the risk of being overran on a counter I feel is decreased. I do however feel our deepest midfielder usually has the space to pick a pass. With Rashford and possibly Sancho it would be advantageous to have a deep playmaker in the side.

I’ve never said we shouldn’t sign Zakaria I’ve just expressed an opinion that I prefer Koopmeiners.

 

[Adnan]

You qualifying your statement won't change the fact that using Carrick as a barometer doesn't change the fact that the benchmark right now is Liverpool in domestic football and the likes of Real Madrid in Europe who use mobile defensive players in midfield.

Barcelona also isn't the benchmark in Europe. And the reason they play with a regista type is due to their philosophy which is controlling possession and dominating play via ball circulation, ball repetition. We've never played that way so using their example is a moot one and I've given you many examples to counter that thought and you've responded with Barcelona and mentioned we need to be progressive when there's overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You can be progressive without playing with a deep lying playmaker period.

What aspects of Zakaria's game do you disagree with me on? Let's not beat around the bush here and let's get to the crux of the matter.

The German league is far superior to the Dutch one. It's not even close. Zakaria also doesn't play for the best team in the league. Gladbach are about the 5th best team in the league. The Dutch league is a decent competition but nowhere near the quality of the German one.

It's fine not preferring one player over another. But you can't tell me there's a specific type we need to target as #6 because there's evidence to the contrary. And as far as I'm concerned Liverpool are a progressive side with the likes of Wijnaldum and Fabinho. More progressive than we were with Carrick.

Regardless of system, there are situations where containment or pressing/winning the ball/foul is prefered --> Fernandinho is a master of this. So is he Fred or Fernandinho?

I just can't get the "feel" for players playing in gung-ho leagues. Same has the french league. Impossible to accurately evaluate some of those players.

I can definitively see where you are coming from with Zakaria, and he got a huge potential upside with his ability to bring the ball forward, breaking up play and ability to win duels especially. Just think that Partey, currently, is a much better player and safer bet if he was available.

Your description of Simone's Atletico is very fitting btw.

Partey would also be a very good fit.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

You have to try and understand the mindset/philosophy of Marco Rose and when you do, the answer will be staring right back at you.

That’s a very lazy attempt at a response. Just answer the question

I understand the philosophy that wasn’t the question I asked. You just don’t like the answer which is Zakaria may be suited to that system and could be a system player where he may struggle to contain his natural or trained tendencies.

Manchester United’s style of play is very different to Marco Rose wouldnt you agree?

 

[Adnan]

But those players aren’t good because they are mobile. It’s an aspect of their game but not the defining aspect. Equally we are not set up to play like Liverpool or Madrid we play a different style and don’t have the same creativity from wide areas they do.

You realise all your arguments are pot kettle black. You criticise those who argue for a different style by only supporting one style a mobile player. I’m supporting certain traits and also acknowledging that mobility isn’t the defining characteristic of a top DM.

I believe Zakaria is an inferior passer of the ball to Koopmeiners. I believe Zakaria is a good option but my main issues with him are that I believe Koopmeiners has shown he is capable of line breaking passes and delivering long balls more accurately and effectively. I believe they are similar in a defensive sense but that Zakaria takes more risks.

I acknowledge that Zakaria plays in a system that encourages this but United’s system does not. My concern would be Zakaria adapting to a containment role over a more proactive one.

Ive never once suggested he’s not a good player so honestly I don’t know why you’re picking an augment here.

I believe the reason Liverpool suit Fabinho is down partially to their fullbacks providing so much of their creative threat but even Fabinho’s defining quality isn’t his mobility and I think it’s a regressive argument to imply he’s good because he’s mobile.

We have two fullbacks who are better defensively and so the risk of being overran on a counter I feel is decreased. I do however feel our deepest midfielder usually has the space to pick a pass. With Rashford and possibly Sancho it would be advantageous to have a deep playmaker in the side.

I’ve never said we shouldn’t sign Zakaria I’ve just expressed an opinion that I prefer Koopmeiners.

If you prefer Koopmeiners then that's fine I don't have a issue with that.

Real Madrid and Liverpool have players anchoring their midfield who also probably don't have the ability to play long balls as accurately as Koopmeiners. But Koopmeiners isn't playing against a similar calibre of opponent so the comparison is moot.

 

[MetoTTT]

Ole wanted to rest players today. Well done!

 

[BenitoSTARR]

If you prefer Koopmeiners then that's fine I don't have a issue with that.

Real Madrid and Liverpool have players anchoring their midfield who also probably don't have the ability to play long balls as accurately as Koopmeiners. But Koopmeiners isn't playing against a similar calibre of opponent so the comparison is moot.

And nor do I have an issue with your preference for Zakaria I just fundamentally disagree that a requirement for our DM is mobility in the same way you believe it’s not a requirement that they be a playmaker.

 

[Godfather]

McT and Fred can never be what he brings to the team sadly

 

[Adnan]

That’s a very lazy attempt at a response. Just answer the question

I understand the philosophy that wasn’t the question I asked. You just don’t like the answer which is Zakaria may be suited to that system and could be a system player where he may struggle to contain his natural or trained tendencies.

Manchester United’s style of play is very different to Marco Rose wouldnt you agree?

Solskjaer has gone on record and said he wants to play a high-line similar to Liverpool. He's also mentioned he wants his fullbacks to get forward in attack.

And when you weigh it all up (including his time at Molde) it's easy to deduce that he wants to eventually play a similar style to Rose/Klopp stylistically.

 

[Cassidy]

That’s a very lazy attempt at a response. Just answer the question

I understand the philosophy that wasn’t the question I asked. You just don’t like the answer which is Zakaria may be suited to that system and could be a system player where he may struggle to contain his natural or trained tendencies.

Manchester United’s style of play is very different to Marco Rose wouldnt you agree?

That doesnt mean the player can only play that way is the point.

He is playing exactly how he is being asked

 

[Adnan]

And nor do I have an issue with your preference for Zakaria I just fundamentally disagree that a requirement for our DM is mobility in the same way you believe it’s not a requirement that they be a playmaker.

Mobility isn't the only requirement and I've explained all the other attributes to you aswell. Which include passing under pressure, defending space and advancing play which Zakaria is strong at.